View Full Version : Secret All-Ireland League talks to resume
I didn't state lack of evidence as a justification for having an all-island league -I just stated the fact that we're low on evidence. What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it.
This is the perfect example of jumping into something that hasn't been proven to big success it was/is claimed to be.
I'm totally for an AIL, however both leagues need to sort out the marketing, infrastructure etc first. Then we'd be going into an AIL league strong.
If it's just seen as the solution, as summer football was, it'll be marginal, if any, increases in attendances, marginally increased success in europe, debtable increases in standard and both FA's washing their hands saying "what more can we do"?
pineapple stu
31/03/2006, 12:27 PM
What evidence did we have for Summer football ? Yet we still went for it.
At least potential benefits were mooted and considered - better equip our European entrants, have a bit of the league played at a time when there was no competition from England, have games played in better weather when people were more likely to come out, etc. There's been nothing like that for an AIL.
(and, if I recall from the last thread we had on this, most other people reading it)
Funny, I don't recall anything of the sort. You might point out posts from "most people" disagreeing with me? Or is this another example of you thinking that saying something means it really happened?
Not a drop in available European places in real-terms
Really? 8 and 4 aren't real numbers? I'd better tell them that...I'd say they'll be surprised!
Fortunately, I'd imagine most people here can see through your maths and opinionated yet unsubstantiated posts, hence the lack of people rushing to back you up. ;)
pineapple stu
31/03/2006, 12:27 PM
Let's just see an AI Lge.ASAP & possibly better club performances, eg.in Europe?
Again gonzo, I have to ask you - why do those two ideas necessarily go together?
derrymac
31/03/2006, 12:58 PM
I suppose the question is how do you get people to support their local team?, when they are more interested in Chelsea, Liverpool and United. Another thing is that the teams represented in the league should be more nationwide based, rather than a handful of counties represented. The GAA can do it, why not the IFA/FAI? e.g Wexford, Kerry, Cavan.......
There doesn't seem to be that problem in England where most of the football teams are located around hubs - London, The north-east, north-west and midlands
dcfcsteve
31/03/2006, 3:02 PM
At least potential benefits were mooted and considered - better equip our European entrants, have a bit of the league played at a time when there was no competition from England, have games played in better weather when people were more likely to come out, etc. There's been nothing like that for an AIL.
The key benefit mooted for an AIL is the expected increase in media coverage it would generate. Setanta have put a lot of money into a competition solely because of its all-island dimension. Otherwise they could have just sponsored one or other league or association cup
Funny, I don't recall anything of the sort. You might point out posts from "most people" disagreeing with me? Or is this another example of you thinking that saying something means it really happened?
Scan back over the thread.
Really? 8 and 4 aren't real numbers? I'd better tell them that...I'd say they'll be surprised!
I'm sure you talk to numbers a lot, but I prefer to deal with the real world :D
Every team in the IL and EL can compete for up to 4 European slots at the moment. Under a single league north and south, they'd still be competing for only 4 slots each. 4 slots would've gone to the big qualification pool in the sky, but in real terms no club has lost any of the slots available to them to compete for (i.e. still a max of 4) . All that has happened is that the competition for the 4 available slots has increased.
Fortunately, I'd imagine most people here can see through your maths and opinionated yet unsubstantiated posts, hence the lack of people rushing to back you up. ;)
I've made clear and direct references to a legal ruling to back-up what I've been saying here. Ive also given the name and position of a FIFA and UEFA Board memebr who's explained the whole situation to me as well. I asked you to go and find evidence that countered what I said, but you yourself said you couldn't find anything. So stop trying to personalise what is fundamentally a debate about football. Despite presenting evidence to support my arguement, and a complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint, I've agreed to differ with you. So just let it go, ffs
pineapple stu
31/03/2006, 4:01 PM
With respect, I don't think many of the teams in the Irish League would increase the standard here considerably. Would teams improve massively if they were playing Dungannon instead of Waterford every week?
DCFCSteve - if you're going to write things like "you yourself said you couldn't find anything" when I quite clearly stated subsequent to the original comment and previous to your quoting it that I found and disagreed with the case you quoted, or things like "complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint" when I quite clearly stated my reasons for believing the relevant facts to be different, then, with respect, you're a fool.
The only person who has specifically disagreed with me on this thread is gonzo. And even that's not a disagreement per se - just me trying to get a bit of substance for his reasons. (Also, you disagree with me. But you think 8=4. So you don't count.) So your point there is also wrong. Though no doubt you'll retort with a strongly worded piece of rhetoric stating that I'm wrong while making reference to other posts (though not quoting them, because that would mean invalidating your argument straight off) which concludes that you're right purely on the basis that that's what you want to believe.
dcfcsteve
31/03/2006, 5:31 PM
With respect, I don't think many of the teams in the Irish League would increase the standard here considerably. Would teams improve massively if they were playing Dungannon instead of Waterford every week?
DCFCSteve - if you're going to write things like "you yourself said you couldn't find anything" when I quite clearly stated subsequent to the original comment and previous to your quoting it that I found and disagreed with the case you quoted, or things like "complete absence of evidence for your viewpoint" when I quite clearly stated my reasons for believing the relevant facts to be different, then, with respect, you're a fool.
The only person who has specifically disagreed with me on this thread is gonzo. And even that's not a disagreement per se - just me trying to get a bit of substance for his reasons. (Also, you disagree with me. But you think 8=4. So you don't count.) So your point there is also wrong. Though no doubt you'll retort with a strongly worded piece of rhetoric stating that I'm wrong while making reference to other posts (though not quoting them, because that would mean invalidating your argument straight off) which concludes that you're right purely on the basis that that's what you want to believe.
Yawn. We've agreed to disagree.
As they used to say in the Budweiser ad "Let it go Louis, let it go...."
pineapple stu
31/03/2006, 11:44 PM
Actually, I've repeatedly said I'm in favour of an AIL. Though you're probably skipping over that because it goes against your argument.
Student Mullet
01/04/2006, 1:08 AM
Lads,
This debate is getting seriously boring. How about the two of you agree that it will be more difficult for a club to qualify for europe but that this is a good thing as it is the result of greater competition?
Lux Interior
01/04/2006, 2:31 AM
I don't think the Setanta Cup has gained much extra support outside people who would normally go to IL or eL games. Maybe this because Setanta coverage around the country is patchy (NTL + 32k Sky/Chorus subscribers).
Most of the IL sides except Linfield are average ability or poor so don't attract the attention of supporters. Cork City v Drogheda Setanta CUp crowds were a bit smaller than league crowds you;d expect but this is due to boredom of playing 3 times in 4-5 weeks.
Pete, I'll accept that we are playing **** this season and there is an air of despondency surrounding the club, resulting in a **** poor 350 at Tolka and a last minute 400 at Brandywell.
Make no mistake, though, we do "attract the attention of supporters" and I suspect the REAL powers here will want our respective travelling supports - the healthiest two on the island, IMO.
Dassa - low Setanta attendances, yes - for IL clubs playing on a Monday evening isn't going to draw out supporters. Let's have these games at a weekend, to test the real level of support.
PS: agree with the earlier poster who argued that Europe shouldn't be the holy grail of Irish clubs.
CollegeTillIDie
01/04/2006, 4:34 PM
Lux Interior you make a lot of interesting points.
But having the Setanta at weekends would pose problems for both the Irish League domestic competitions and for the League down here later on in the competition.
The Irish League issue could be addressed easily. It would involved losing one of two of your lesser competitions or else the withdrawl of the IL Setanta teams from these competitions. Which would mean that for example...
instead of entering the County Antrim Shield any Setanta Cup entrants could play each other in the Irish League instead thus freeing up a weekend later in the regular Irish League season in which to play a Setanta Cup fixture.
And perhaps that could be extended to all the rounds of that competition.
I myself believe that perhaps there could be scope for starting the Setanta Cup a little bit earlier in February which would avoid the fixture overcrowding currently being experienced by the likes of Cork City and Linfield for example these days.
I myself believe that perhaps there could be scope for starting the Setanta Cup a little bit earlier in February which would avoid the fixture overcrowding currently being experienced by the likes of Cork City and Linfield for example these days.
I think it started early enough this season & don't see scope to move it earlier. I think the problem is that we are playing Friday-Mon/Tuesday 4 weeks on the tro so soon in the season & that lessens the support interest as just too many games...
Speranza
02/04/2006, 4:27 PM
All of you who seek the novelty of an AIL still can't answer how exactly it will benefit football in our nation.
It is hard to define this "big club" nonsense that goes around but it needs to be said that only Glentoran, Linfield and arguably Portadown would be "big" enough to be in our Premier Division. Despite that these three clubs get awful crowds. All in all how would an AIL get the masses to watch domestic football.
Speranza
02/04/2006, 5:35 PM
Yeah. The stress of organising matches against Linfield in particular is simply not worth the effort. We are fine by ourselves.
dcfcsteve
02/04/2006, 7:28 PM
All of you who seek the novelty of an AIL still can't answer how exactly it will benefit football in our nation.
It is hard to define this "big club" nonsense that goes around but it needs to be said that only Glentoran, Linfield and arguably Portadown would be "big" enough to be in our Premier Division. Despite that these three clubs get awful crowds. All in all how would an AIL get the masses to watch domestic football.
Media coverage. Without the oxygen of publicity, neither league is doing more than surviving.
TV figures for televised games show that people will watch Irish football. Watching games from home is the first step in the slow path a lot of people will make towards actively supporting a team. That initial step is lacking at the moment- hence we're having to convert people the hard way.
Setanta has shown there is media interest in an all-island league. A degree of consistent interest and financial support that doesn't exist amongst any media outlet for either league in isolation.
pineapple stu
02/04/2006, 7:43 PM
Are the figures for the Setanta Cup significantly higher than those for eircom League games though?
Yeah. The stress of organising matches against Linfield in particular is simply not worth the effort. We are fine by ourselves.
And the IL are fine by ourselves. Clubs shouldnt be worrying about what could or might be in the future but should be looking at trying to improve what we currently have.
dcfcsteve
02/04/2006, 9:50 PM
Are the figures for the Setanta Cup significantly higher than those for eircom League games though?
I'm not sure if Setanta or anyone else publishes their viewing stats. Would be interesting to see the figures - though they'd be limited due to the paid-for element in accessing the channel in large parts of the country.
One thing's for sure - the figures for Setanta cup games shown live are significantly higher than those for the 11 Eircom league and 8 Irish League Premier division games that aren't shown live on an average week...... :)
hamish
02/04/2006, 10:06 PM
Thing just struck me - if the meeting(s) are secret how do we know about it or are the clubs kinda "manufacturing" leaks to test the water North and South...em....like what's happening in this thread???:confused: :confused:
Dassa
02/04/2006, 11:33 PM
Well there's a contradictory statement!:eek: Improvements for all Irish clubs would follow through Competition.
Though the dinosaurs/ostriches would rather wallow in the continuing mediocrity. Apt really.:D
Not contradictory at all. I mean we could sit and talk about something thats very likely not to happen (AIL), or we can look at realistic steps to make both our leagues more attractive to fans.
I could sit here and say that a great way to encourage fans to come to watch Loughgall and other IL teams would be to invite Man Utd or Liverpool to join our league, but that is stupid because surprise surprise it WOULD NEVER HAPPEN just like the AIL.
The club who would probably gain most from IL in this league is linfield and their chairman has said Linfield are not interested.
dcfcsteve
03/04/2006, 10:08 AM
Not contradictory at all. I mean we could sit and talk about something thats very likely not to happen (AIL), or we can look at realistic steps to make both our leagues more attractive to fans.
I could sit here and say that a great way to encourage fans to come to watch Loughgall and other IL teams would be to invite Man Utd or Liverpool to join our league, but that is stupid because surprise surprise it WOULD NEVER HAPPEN just like the AIL.
The club who would probably gain most from IL in this league is linfield and their chairman has said Linfield are not interested.
Never say 'never' Dassa.
Personally, I think some form of all-island league is inevitable. It won't happen tomorrow, and might be quite a few years away yet - but in my view it's inevitable. We'll know eventually which one of us is right on this...
Would disgree totally with your suggestion that Linfield have the most to gain from an AIL though. I'd say it would be the teams immediately below them in the IL who'd gain the most - they can't overcome Linfield's strangle-hold on the league at the moment. An AIL would see Linfield switch from being pretty much guaranteed at least one trophy and European football every year, to finding neither of those current 'certainties' are assured - particularly in the short-to-medium term. That suggests they actually have most to lose from the idea. And that's before you add in any 'political' considerations, given the traditional ethos of the club/its supporters.
You can't compare Setanta Cup viewing figures and eircom League, because everyone has RTE and most people in Ireland don't have Setanta.
An All-Ireland League is the only way forward, but of course it in itself would not solve everything. The league is coming on well here though - we've plenty to be happy about.
pineapple stu
03/04/2006, 12:24 PM
One thing's for sure - the figures for Setanta cup games shown live are significantly higher than those for the 11 Eircom league and 8 Irish League Premier division games that aren't shown live on an average week...... :)
True, if completely irrelevant when comparing viewing figures for the Setanta Cup games with viewing figures for eircom League games to see where Setanta's bigger interest lies.
ifk101
03/04/2006, 12:32 PM
I honestly don't see why people believe an AIL would improve everyone's lot. There seems to be an assumption that quality levels will dramatically improve and the AIL will be awash with a massive wave of investment. Where's this coming from? No disrespect to the Irish League teams but LOI teams are further down the professionalism road and if, for example a 16-team premier league is created (8 LOI teams, 8 Irish League), I believe that over a season the top 8 places in that league would be dominated by LOI teams. Furthermore if there is a lower tier league, I would expect LOI to dominate the promotion places to the premier. In effect there would be an imbalance in the quality of the league in the short-to-medium term and in the long-term likely to be a heavy bias or number of LOI teams in the premier division. Then you have this vicious circle - success breeds success. Any investment would go to the stronger LOI clubs helping to consolidate their positions at the top of the pile. In effect, with the exception of one or two teams, we're back to a LOI premier division within a few years.
Another thing against an AIL is the lack of rivalry between LOI and Irish League clubs. People might complain about UCD but I believe that UCD would still draw a larger crowd to any LOI premier match than what Dungannon Swifts would (not that it would be much of a crowd in either match mind you). Rivalry takes time to build but an AIL doesn't have that time on its hands.
In fairness the standard or LOI football on display has improved greatly in the last five years. There is still a long way to go before the LOI can support a full-time professional league but it is going in the right direction. (Can we honestly say this about Irish League football?) I think an AIL would slow this improvement down for LOI sides in the short-to-medium term - which surely isn't what LOI fans want. And while the Setanta Cup isn't that great a yard-stick to measure the merits of LOI and Irish League football, there is a clear gap in the standard of LOI versus Irish League teams. Only Linfield of the Irish League teams has held its own. Do Irish league fans really want to watch their teams playing second-fiddle on a weekly basis or would they prefer to see them competing for a league title or European competition place?
First RTE2 live eL match Cork City v Bohs doesn't seem to have got great viewing figures as based on latest rating has failed to get more than 129k viewers....
Premiership live on saturday afternoon 25th Match got 137k although i can't remember what match that was...
Schumi
03/04/2006, 1:20 PM
You can't compare Setanta Cup viewing figures and eircom League, because everyone has RTE and most people in Ireland don't have Setanta.You could compare to the EL matches on Setanta though.
dcfcsteve
03/04/2006, 3:10 PM
True, if completely irrelevant when comparing viewing figures for the Setanta Cup games with viewing figures for eircom League games to see where Setanta's bigger interest lies.
I'd suggest the formation from-scratch of a relatively risky (from a security perspective) competition with their name on it, and the injection of a 6 figure sum into it as prize money, gives a fairly clear indication of where Setanta's bigger interest lies.....
dcfcsteve
03/04/2006, 3:11 PM
You could compare to the EL matches on Setanta though.
But we have viewing figures on neither ...!
pineapple stu
03/04/2006, 3:52 PM
I'd suggest the formation from-scratch of a relatively risky (from a security perspective) competition with their name on it, and the injection of a 6 figure sum into it as prize money, gives a fairly clear indication of where Setanta's bigger interest lies.....
Didn't the prize money from the eL rise from E18k to E400k due to increased sponsorship from TV companies as well? That indicates that the three TV stations - RTÉ, Setanta and TG4 - each paid a 6 figure sum for rights as well. So there's much of a muchness really.
But we have viewing figures on neither ...!
You might want to read the context of the post first...?
An input of fresh blood(hopefully not 'literally') & local teams of a raised standard would make the prospect, er, more attractive.
As for Linfield & dinosaurs of that ilk;
What is this notion that if you disagree with the idea of an AIL you are a dinosaur living in the past,this is just ridiculus. I dont want to see an AIL because i think that once the novelty wears off the league will be a disaster. This may be my opinion but doesnt mean that me and the likes of Linfield's Chairman live in the past.
dcfcsteve
03/04/2006, 4:54 PM
Didn't the prize money from the eL rise from E18k to E400k due to increased sponsorship from TV companies as well? That indicates that the three TV stations - RTÉ, Setanta and TG4 - each paid a 6 figure sum for rights as well. So there's much of a muchness really.
The prize money increased to €400k due to last year's rights agreement with Setanta RTE and TV3 (not TG4). Even if each of those did pay a 6 figure sum for rights (though i suspect that a chunk of that money also came form the FAI) - Setanta have clearly gone a step further and paid an additional 6 figure sum to create a heavily-televised north-south competition under their own name. Beyond what they and anyone else may have paid for EL rights. No matter what way you look at it, Setanta clearly have the hots for cross-border football.
You might want to read the context of the post first...?
I did. Unlike the RTE league games, we don't have vieing figures for either the EL or Setanta Cup games on Setanta.
Schumi
03/04/2006, 5:04 PM
I did. Unlike the RTE league games, we don't have vieing figures for either the EL or Setanta Cup games on Setanta.
The figures are directly comparable which was the point I was making in response to JW. Do Setanta ever publicise their figures I wonder?
Bald Student
03/04/2006, 5:18 PM
Setanta have clearly gone a step further and paid an additional 6 figure sum to create a heavily-televised north-south competition under their own name. Beyond what they and anyone else may have paid for EL rights. No matter what way you look at it, Setanta clearly have the hots for cross-border football.It seems to me like they have the hots for both and, to be fair to Setanta, they do show an awful lot of different sports. They even show secondary schools rugby and primary schools GAA.
The main advantage of an AIL as I see it is that it will have a bigger potential support base than either league alone.On average the clubs in the top division should have a bit more money than either does at the moment so should be able to play better football. I don't see it as the holy grail of football on this island but it would be an improvement.
I would say Setanta were keen on some sort of means to advertising their channels & feel that cross border competition has nice tie in with SPL & Celtic/Rangers tv. A new competition means they get title sponsorship too otherwise it would have become Setanta Sport League Cup or something.
For 0.5-1.0m i'd would get exclusive eircom League rights for a game every weekend. Chorus will soon own NTL (if they don't already) so maybe Setanta will be bundled free with them too meaning probably not far off 750k available viewers... How many viewers qualities as terrestial type coverage for international matches?
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