What would the Irish B team look like?

[Paddy Garcia]

England are considering a B international, and a lot of very useful players are being touted.

If we had to put out a B team, not really sure what it would look like! Don't feel too confident it would beat England 4-2, like a few years back.

A suggestions below, happy to take any advances (especially up front):

W Henderson

A Dunne
G Coughlan
P McCarthy
S Foley

James O'Connor
O Garvin
M Doyle
K Andrews

R Foran
A Lee

[livehead1]

England are considering a B international, and a lot of very useful players are being touted.

If we had to put out a B team, not really sure what it would look like! Don't feel too confident it would beat England 4-2, like a few years back.

A suggestions below, happy to take any advances (especially up front):

W Henderson

A Dunne
G Coughlan
P McCarthy
S Foley

James O'Connor
O Garvin
M Doyle
K Andrews

R Foran
A Lee


i feel if there was to be a B game then the likes of lawrence, s.kelly, a.maybury would be included. would also have elliot in there, some people seem to forget that when you add it up he has little more than one season in professional football. stack would be in there as well, so would kenny, jon macken, theres loads of players who are on the fringes or who haven't played enough games. very few if none of them are good enough at international level though so it could possibly be a waste of time.

on a positive note though, the quicker we can get the likes of k.doyle, garvan and supple in the full swuad on a regular basis the better. These are the lads that the future is going to be built around and they have a great chance of being involved come the qualifiers if they keep there present form, age is no barrier at any level of football.

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Good thread. My B team would be slightly different. Something like the following:

1. W. Henderson (Brighton)

2. S. Kelly (Spurs) 4. D. Delaney (Hull) 5. P. McCarthy (Leicester) 3. C. Clarke (West Ham)

7. S. Ireland (Man City) 6. J. O'Brien (Bolton) 8. O. Garvan (Ipswich) 11. A. McGeady (Celtic)

9. L. Trundle (Swansea) 10. K. Doyle (Reading)

Subs:
12. G. Stack (Ipswich)
13. K. Foley (Luton)
14. P. McShane (Man U/Brighton)
15. A. Bruce (Birmingham)
16. M. Painter (Birmingham)
17. R. O'Brien (DC United)
18. G. Whelan (Sheff Wed)
19. G. O'Connor (Burnley)
20. J. Tabb (Brentford)
21. D. Murphy (Sunderland)
22. A. Lee (Ipswich)

Obviously, some of the listed players are currently injured. However, I would prefer to see the young, unproven players in the squad with a handfull of older players that might still have something to offer. Of the young players, Owen Garvan is the one I'm most excited about. I've only seen him on a few occasions but he looks like he has the credentials to be an excellent midfielder. Considering that he was in poor health at the end of last season, I think its incredible that he's had such an outstanding season. I can only see him getting better.
If anyone questions the importance of B internationals, all they need to do is take a look at the starting XI that played a Northern Ireland B team in early 1998. Although the North won 1-0 that night, we had Nick Colgan in goals, Richard Dunne and Alan Maybury at the back, Kinsella and Kavanagh in midfield, as well as Robbie Keane and Duff in a 3 man attack with the then Barnet striker, Sean Devine! Robbie Keane and Duff were outstanding that night and it could be argued that the B international catapulted them into the senior squad.

[Risteard]

Wouldn't a B team be the players outside the squad reckoning rather than the players who make the squad but not the team. I wouldn't have Doyle and Elliot in the B squad and if there was one i'd definitely have Jason Byrne in it.
Though Gamble is a better player than Georgie from week to week in the eL i think George would cope better in internationals in the unlikely event of a call up.

[pete]

B team squad should be made up of players currently outside the senior squad but too old for U21s.

Doyle & Elliot probably expected senior squad players now. Garvan is young enough for U21s.

[livehead1]

Wouldn't a B team be the players outside the squad reckoning rather than the players who make the squad but not the team. I wouldn't have Doyle and Elliot in the B squad and if there was one i'd definitely have Jason Byrne in it.
Though Gamble is a better player than Georgie from week to week in the eL i think George would cope better in internationals in the unlikely event of a call up.

take off them sunglasses, jason byrne is a million miles away from being good enough for international level!!! jesus

on the other hand, i do agree with you about o'callaghan, he could still offer something, but if he is to get picked by staunton he will have to leave cork, whether thats good or bad i don't know.

[pete]

TBH i don't know if George O'Callaghan is good enough for the senior team but he would certainly deserve a chance at B level. Then again international football would appreciate his abilities...

[The Legend]

Chances of Ronnie O Brien getting on a flight to be a sub at a 'B' international at somewhere like Turner's Corss are probably low i'd say!

[jorge]

................Kenny

Kelly McCarthy Painter Clarke

..................Gamble

.........O'Brien McGeady

..................Ireland

..............J.Byrne D.Murphy

[livehead1]

Chances of Ronnie O Brien getting on a flight to be a sub at a 'B' international at somewhere like Turner's Corss are probably low i'd say!


i'd forgot about ronnie o'brien. Not many if anyone on here has seen him play regularly so we can't really comment but i'm certain ireland has scouts in america that has resulted in a few players in the youth setup so maybe he just isn't good enough.

[Dr. Ogba]

Can't see the use of them to be honest...If we're talking about aiding the development of future Irish players surely thats what the u21s is all about??

In my humble opinion once they "graduate" from the u21s if they are good enough they should already be in the Irish boss' radar for a senior call-up, (prime examples: Richie Partridge, Ronnie O'Brien - just not good enough)

Lets be honest here, do you really think that an extra match playing for a second-rate Irish team against a second-rate English (or other international team) is really going to be the catapult on to greater things??

Whoever said that the B team international was the catapult for Duff, Keane, Dunne etc surely must be taking the p!ss, can anyone actually remember that match??? no, me neither.

Lets face it, the "A" international thing works in rugby due to players developing at a later age but the B thing is just pointless for football and not really going to help anybody...

[livehead1]

Can't see the use of them to be honest...If we're talking about aiding the development of future Irish players surely thats what the u21s is all about??

In my humble opinion once they "graduate" from the u21s if they are good enough they should already be in the Irish boss' radar for a senior call-up, (prime examples: Richie Partridge, Ronnie O'Brien - just not good enough)

Lets be honest here, do you really think that an extra match playing for a second-rate Irish team against a second-rate English (or other international team) is really going to be the catapult on to greater things??

Whoever said that the B team international was the catapult for Duff, Keane, Dunne etc surely must be taking the p!ss, can anyone actually remember that match??? no, me neither.

Lets face it, the "A" international thing works in rugby due to players developing at a later age but the B thing is just pointless for football and not really going to help anybody...

you make several points but fail to justify any of them. Firstly, twice you mention that under 21's are where players should be developed to see if they can cut it at international level. Well that is just nonsense, they have to be played against men, players who will chop them to bits. Anyone remember Kevin Kilbanes debut, now he has gone on to play 60 odd games for us. Surely we would have been better discovering that he wasn't ready in a B game and not a full international.

Also, the point regarding the lack or remembrance of the B international involving Duff and Keane. There is no doubt that they would have made the grade sooner or later to the full side, but there is a possibility that the then manager saw a risk in including them but this game helped to allay his fears somewhat, leading to their inclusion sooner than would have occured had the match not taken place.

You mention that A internationals work for rugby but are pointless for football. Your apparent justification is that they are "not really going to help anybody". Maybe you are right, but you must at least attempt to explain why they are not going to help anyone. It is my opinion that they could be extremely helpful to us in gauging whether a player is suitable for international football. Football is full of late developers, John Aldridge and Teddy Sheringham being prime examples. Indeed, it may prove of great benefit to the current international setup if Lee Trundle were to be given a chance in a match under Steven Staunton. We must remember that not always the best players are the suitable for international football. There are a number of english strikers that come to mind on this point such as Andy Cole and Ian Wright. Cole was part of the most feared strike force in Europe at one time but was simply not suited to the game at international level. Perversly it may also be the case that there are a number of players who are not setting the world alive at domestic level, but nevertheless are suited to the game at international level.

And that my friend, is why we should have a B international.

[Qwerty]

The problem with B games is you have 11 players playing together for the first and probably last time against 11 players playing together for the first and probably last time. Surely a player's ability is better measured at Premiership or Championship level week in week out? How many Premiership or Championship teams would be beaten by an Ireland B selection? I'd say egg 'n spoon races are about as useful and probably a lot more fun to watch :D

[Risteard]

take off them sunglasses, jason byrne is a million miles away from being good enough for international level!!! jesus

Its a B squad. There's 4 strikers in a squad. He is one of our top 8 strikers, surely.
Byrne is 'a million miles' ahead of any striker in the eL and has been for several years. The stats don't lie.
Though Shels fans might be ****ed off with his attitude now, he is going to be the scorer of the vast majority of their goals anyway.

[pete]

The problem with B games is you have 11 players playing together for the first and probably last time against 11 players playing together for the first and probably last time.

This i think is the advantage of a B International. Shows the ability of a player to adapt to new surroundings & play with team hes never played with before - something which you can't see when playing club football with same players week in week out.

[gustavo]

jason byrne is a million miles away from being good enough for international level!!!


i'd forgot about ronnie o'brien. Not many if anyone on here has seen him play regularly so we can't really comment

I take it then that you have seen Jason Byrne on a regular basis therefore enabling you to comment.

[livehead1]

I take it then that you have seen Jason Byrne on a regular basis therefore enabling you to comment.

I have indeed seen Jason Byrne a good few times over the last 18months due to spending and extended time in Dublin so I feel able to comment. He is a good player, but then again the standard, no matter which way you want to argue it, isn't all that great. Just think to yourselves how many goals David Connolly would score in the EL. An absolute hatful. The same with Alan Lee and many other strikers who aren't and shouldn't be in the squad. I've found a couple of comments from other people who are apparently in a position to comment on Byrnes ability.



I would have my doubts over jayo makin it in the championship I dont know if he would be up to it



Jason Byrne for Ireland - lol



I think it could be just a case of him being the token Eircom league player rather than him actually being good enough to force his way into the team, which would hardly be fair on the rest of the squad.

I'd prefer to see John O'Flynn, or even Callaghan

[gustavo]

fair enough livehead you know i just like disagreeing with you:)

[Hither green]

I presume a B-international commits you to a country? Stan chatting up any half-decent uncapped english/Irish player is probably the reason england are thinking of having a B-team game.

[livehead1]

fair enough livehead you know i just like disagreeing with you:)
yeh i know, and to think we're both from sligo:eek:

[Dodge]

I'm in favour of B internationals if treated as a development team. Anyone remember Charlton picking a b squad in 1993/4 with Townsend and Whelan in it? Idiot...

BE a chancee for some of the local lads to see if they're good enough and some of the promising kids in england to see if they can fit with the grown ups. I wouldn't pick anyone over the age of 25 or anybody with more than 5 caps

[livehead1]

I presume a B-international commits you to a country? Stan chatting up any half-decent uncapped english/Irish player is probably the reason england are thinking of having a B-team game.
After looking into it i don't think it does. They don't even hand out caps for B-internationals.

[Dr. Ogba]

you make several points but fail to justify any of them. Firstly, twice you mention that under 21's are where players should be developed to see if they can cut it at international level. Well that is just nonsense, they have to be played against men, players who will chop them to bits. Anyone remember Kevin Kilbanes debut, now he has gone on to play 60 odd games for us. Surely we would have been better discovering that he wasn't ready in a B game and not a full international.

Couple of points here, are you actually saying that these young players should play a b match so that they can play against players that will "chop them to pieces"??? Jaysus don't think the clubs would be too happy releasing them if that's the case. You're also implying u21's matches are just a walk in the park where no tackles are made and everybody just stands off each other??:eek:
As for KK, you are saying that if he had played a B game then he wouldn't have made it for Ireland? If he wasn't good enough surely one of his various managers would have noticed during one of those 60 matches playing for the first team? Fact of the matter is KK has always done a job for us, but me thinks I'm straying off the point here...




You mention that A internationals work for rugby but are pointless for football. Your apparent justification is that they are "not really going to help anybody". Maybe you are right, but you must at least attempt to explain why they are not going to help anyone. It is my opinion that they could be extremely helpful to us in gauging whether a player is suitable for international football. Football is full of late developers, John Aldridge and Teddy Sheringham being prime examples. Indeed, it may prove of great benefit to the current international setup if Lee Trundle were to be given a chance in a match under Steven Staunton. We must remember that not always the best players are the suitable for international football. There are a number of english strikers that come to mind on this point such as Andy Cole and Ian Wright. Cole was part of the most feared strike force in Europe at one time but was simply not suited to the game at international level. Perversly it may also be the case that there are a number of players who are not setting the world alive at domestic level, but nevertheless are suited to the game at international level.

And that my friend, is why we should have a B international.

Oh God, you've got to be kidding me!! Now I'm open for correction here but surely John Aldridge, Teddy Sheringham et al were not discovered during a B international but while playing week-in week-out for their respictive clubs (again open for correction here but wasn't Sheringham well known as a potential England player even back in his Forest days?)

And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...

There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly...

You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

[Plastic Paddy]

And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...

You've obviously never seen this particular "fat journeyman" play (three clubs does not a journeyman make, but I digress). He's a better finisher than any forward we've got (yes, even Robbie, whose finishing I consider to be his weakest point, twenty-six goals for his country notwithstanding - he should have at least double that ;) ), he can play with both feet, he is easily the best player in that division (which, let's face it, is on a par with much of the eL top flight) and he has the hunger to play for Ireland. Get him in the next squad, I say.


There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly...

Ahh, the matches that Mister Kerr would prioritise above all others. And look where that got us... :rolleyes:


You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

No comment from me on the patronising tone of your response - I'll leave the right of reply to Livehead on that one.

:ball: PP

[livehead1]

As for KK, you are saying that if he had played a B game then he wouldn't have made it for Ireland? If he wasn't good enough surely one of his various managers would have noticed during one of those 60 matches playing for the first team? Fact of the matter is KK has always done a job for us, but me thinks I'm straying off the point here...
I don't think your straying of the point, i just don't think you know what your talking about! Can you or anyone else remember KK's debut. I think it was against iceland. He was absolutely awful. Here is a match report that describes mccarthys views of his debut. He also said that after seeing this, it became clear that KK was not ready for international football. Indeed, i think he was left out for about a year after this performance. This could have been avoided at senior international level had this debut been in a B game




He did not impress when he was first-choice against Iceland in Reykjavik during the qualifying rounds of the World Cup but he looked much more at home against the Czechs last month.
"I've been very impressed with his level of skill," said McCarthy. "He certainly came back strongly after the nightmare of Iceland and that was a big test of his character.






Oh God, you've got to be kidding me!! Now I'm open for correction here but surely John Aldridge, Teddy Sheringham et al were not discovered during a B international but while playing week-in week-out for their respictive clubs (again open for correction here but wasn't Sheringham well known as a potential England player even back in his Forest days

you mean similarly how Trundle is 'well known' as a potential Ireland player, a player you then continue on to label a fat journeyman:rolleyes: . Me thinks you need to have a quick look at some of Eirebhoys vids on him.


And please, please don't use this as justification for getting Trundle into the setup...There's late developers and then theres fat journeymen that will never make it above the English 3rd flight...
you mean a small bit like Aldridge? Who after leaving oxford went on to become an ireland and liverpool legend and also play in spain? For the facts, Trundle didnt turn pro till around 24, he has consistantly proved himself at any level he has been allowed to play at.


There's already an excellent way of blooding up-and-coming players into the international set-up and this, my friend, is called a friendly......
just like brian kerr did? and what would you suppose we do, leave some of the regulars out. Maybe leave stephen reid out so garvan can have a game. Or drop finnan cos kevin foley looks like he might be a decent right back. In fact while were at it, lets give jay tabb a run out, lets leave duff out.

To put it plainly, you can only include so many players in a squad for a 'friendly'. You only get a few dates given to you by fifa each year where you are allowed to play friendlies. i.e. the dates where clubs must release their players to the nations. So if we were to play a b international on the day after or the day before the senior squads game, then it we be a superb oppurtunity to get a look at some more players, mostly young, but a few older lads, in the green shirt of ireland, playing in the positions, formation and style of the national side and seeing if any of them appear up to it.




You see, the use of the friendly, if done properly, is to bring the up and comers into the setup and integrate them with the more experienced players already there...hence forming a team....

O yes. Brilliant comment. Indeed I and most other people do see the rewards that our current system has brought us. A failure to qualify for FIVE major competitions out of the last six, and have seen ourselves slip to fourth seeds. But ya know, you can't beat the old tried and tested methods that you so vehmently defend in order to for our [I]team

[pete]

Using a friendly to test journey men like Trundle is a waste as we only have a few friendlies a year. Who would get dropped from the squad to accomodate Trundle anyway.

[Paddy Garcia]

Charlton used friendlys to pretty good effect.

The 90 (?) win over England built confidence and I think both Quinn & Irwin made compelling cases for a call up to the first team.

Also in 92 Cunningham, McGoldrick, McLoughlin and David Kelly were given a run in a B international against Denmark (B or U21). A year later McGoldrick played in the world cup qualifier against Denmark and later also very well in the away game against NI.

Perhaps most importantly though, it provided a look at fringe players in a comfortable (nothing to lose) yet reasonably challenging environment. For instance a few lower league and league of Ireland players were given a shout like Owen Coyle, Russell and Fenlon. The conclusion for many may have been that they were not going to cut it, nonetheless a reasonable way to work with them for a few days & draw an objective conclusion.

Sound management, and an eye to the future and late developers can make a B international very useful.

For instance lots of talk about Ronnie O'Brien & others on these forums - be great to see him/them in the flesh against chosen opposition.

[Roverstillidie]

hows about an annual b international v an eircom league selection?

great chance for fringe/uncapped players while giving the el players a chance to prove the likes of livehead over.

also would attract a decent quality fan and allow me to see the grown up boys in green without wanting to rip ole ole slime's heads off.

if it happens 10% of the gate goes to me

[Dodge]

Been tried. Rubbish game, rubbish crowd. no one cared about it and it showed.

Oh and whether he's Irish or not Trundle is good enough for our squad (his grandad is from Inchicore BTW)

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

Have to agree with you Dodge. The last B game was against an EL selection in 2000. The game was played on a wet and windy night in Bray. All eyes were on Paul Butler, who got a run around from Trevor Molloy. Think the final result was 4-3 to the B team, but I'm open to correction. Dave Barry managed the EL selection and picked the Cork goalkeeper and three of the Cork back four. I think Colin Hawkins was the one non-Cork player he chose! As Dodge said, there was a poor crowd at the game.

[pete]

Play it in Turners Cross with George O'Callagahan in midfield & guaranteed full house.

Did Charlton play Paul Butler against the Czech Republic only to sub him at halftime as Koller was killing him?

[tetsujin1979]

Play it in Turners Cross with George O'Callagahan in midfield & guaranteed full house.

Did Charlton play Paul Butler against the Czech Republic only to sub him at halftime as Koller was killing him?
It was McCarthy, Koller scored twice and Butler got subbed at half time for Phil Babb.
Butler was called into subsequent squads but never made another appearance in the green.

[livehead1]

hows about an annual b international v an eircom league selection?

great chance for fringe/uncapped players while giving the el players a chance to prove the likes of livehead over.

also would attract a decent quality fan and allow me to see the grown up boys in green without wanting to rip ole ole slime's heads off.

if it happens 10% of the gate goes to me
prove what? that very few of them are at the standard to play international football. sing n dance about the EL league all you like, there are some good players in it, but friendlies are not there to prove anything to the fans in terms of how good our home league is.

Not a bad idea about the game but i don't know if it would be possible with the timing of the leagues with the EL running through the summer etc.

[Dr. Ogba]

just like brian kerr did? and what would you suppose we do, leave some of the regulars out. Maybe leave stephen reid out so garvan can have a game. Or drop finnan cos kevin foley looks like he might be a decent right back. In fact while were at it, lets give jay tabb a run out, lets leave duff out.

To put it plainly, you can only include so many players in a squad for a 'friendly'. You only get a few dates given to you by fifa each year where you are allowed to play friendlies. i.e. the dates where clubs must release their players to the nations. So if we were to play a b international on the day after or the day before the senior squads game, then it we be a superb oppurtunity to get a look at some more players, mostly young, but a few older lads, in the green shirt of ireland, playing in the positions, formation and style of the national side and seeing if any of them appear up to it.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I did say that friendlies, if done properly, are a perfect way of integrating new players. Its plainly obvious that Kerr did not take advantage of friendlies, was far too cautious and the team suffered as a result.





O yes. Brilliant comment. Indeed I and most other people do see the rewards that our current system has brought us. A failure to qualify for FIVE major competitions out of the last six, and have seen ourselves slip to fourth seeds. But ya know, you can't beat the old tried and tested methods that you so vehmently defend in order to for our [I]team

Yes brilliant comment by yourself there. So non-qualification for major championships can be traced back to the fact that we don't play B matches??

Might be due to the fact that we haven't had good enough personnel whether it be coaches and/or players??

[livehead1]

Yes brilliant comment by yourself there. So non-qualification for major championships can be traced back to the fact that we don't play B matches??

Might be due to the fact that we haven't had good enough personnel whether it be coaches and/or players??
as is being discussed currently on another thread, many believe we did and do have the players.

You have missed my point, im not putting non-qual. down to the fact that we didnt play B games, simply im pointing out that there is nothing wrong with trying something a bit different, as the old methods havent got us too far.

[CollegeTillIDie]

A Republic of Ireland B team would be the perfect opportunity to try out the EL players who are being championed by many for the Senior team.
If they could survive rubbing shoulders with players from the much vaunted F.A. Premiership, Coca-Cola Championship and First and Second streams then it might be worthwhile. Oh and if FIFA and UEFA lose their court case with Charleroi expect to see an EL Selection representing the Republic in the Future.... as the FAI would not be able to afford to compensate the Premiership clubs concerned for the wages of the big name stars "borrowed" for International matches.