View Full Version : Petition to wind up Accolade (Shels)
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Poor Student
17/03/2006, 1:50 PM
In Slovenia they fecked out NK Olimpija Ljubljana for doing the same thing. A club who recently knocked Shels out of Europe coincidentally. The club finished in a European spot and were denied their place as they had no licence and ended up dying despite being the most famous club with the strongest tradition in the country.
Let's try and keep some level of perspective here- Shels may be the most high-profile overspenders but they're by no means the only ones. We have fans of clubs that are total financial basket-cases themselves howling for Shels blood without a hint of irony. The league is still riddled with this financial madness and ultimately its hurting everyone- the clubs that do it because they endanger their future, and the clubs that don't because they must compete against them.
That said, and club/business can get into trouble- a bad season and gates etc drop off and cash flow problems can happen, that's just the way of the world. What we're dealing with here is continued spending of money that clubs have no realistic hope of taking in. For the good of the league and all its clubs this has to be stopped somehow. It's time to take a long term view and build things up gradually rather than always looking for one big hit that's going to suddenly take the club on to 'the next level'.
Poor Student
17/03/2006, 2:00 PM
Galway, the proposed restructuring of the league is about trying to have your cake and eat it. I've been told by a club official that "the eircom League is not viable" but what they simply mean is that we cannot sustain this level of expenditure in the current set up. I've been told that if balancing the books is the height of ambition in this league then we shouldn't bother. The big clubs want to continue to spend big and engineer a set up that yields higher income to allow it to be sustainable. So instead of copping on the attitude seems to be "How can we get around this?".
chippie0001
17/03/2006, 2:12 PM
The big clubs want to continue to spend big and engineer a set up that yields higher income to allow it to be sustainable. So instead of copping on the attitude seems to be "How can we get around this?".
And the terrible thing is I would not mind this idea in a way except that we all know the new structure, new format etc is not doing to deliver bigger crowds, more income cause it is still flawed.
sullanefc
17/03/2006, 2:15 PM
Let's try and keep some level of perspective here- Shels may be the most high-profile overspenders but they're by no means the only ones. We have fans of clubs that are total financial basket-cases themselves howling for Shels blood without a hint of irony. The league is still riddled with this financial madness and ultimately its hurting everyone- the clubs that do it because they endanger their future, and the clubs that don't because they must compete against them.
What other clubs are dodgy?
chippie0001
17/03/2006, 2:18 PM
What other clubs are dodgy?
There are plenty of clubs that are still living with their past mistakes or still making them. Bohs/Pats/Waterford etc are all still getting over massive overspending. Rovers were relegated as a result of it. Dundalk had to sell their training pitch to cover football losses etc.
gael353
17/03/2006, 2:23 PM
What other clubs are dodgy?
i wouldnt call them dodgy but every club owes money to creditors and the tax man. The least owed by a club is in the region of 40,000 and thats by a munster first division club who wear blue ;) ive heard storys of one other big dublin club who might be going to the courts very soon similar to shels. The tax man could pull all 22 clubs up before the courts straight away on outstanding tax issues but have cut deals of repayment with lots if not most. Shels are being used as an example case imo. I hope shels probs are sorted out soon as i dont want to see any club going out of business, not like what the media are pushing.
Strabane_Harp
17/03/2006, 2:40 PM
Finn Harps debt will be cleared by end of the year
bohs til i die
17/03/2006, 2:59 PM
Let's try and keep some level of perspective here- Shels may be the most high-profile overspenders but they're by no means the only ones. We have fans of clubs that are total financial basket-cases themselves howling for Shels blood without a hint of irony. The league is still riddled with this financial madness and ultimately its hurting everyone- the clubs that do it because they endanger their future, and the clubs that don't because they must compete against them.
That said, and club/business can get into trouble- a bad season and gates etc drop off and cash flow problems can happen, that's just the way of the world. What we're dealing with here is continued spending of money that clubs have no realistic hope of taking in. For the good of the league and all its clubs this has to be stopped somehow. It's time to take a long term view and build things up gradually rather than always looking for one big hit that's going to suddenly take the club on to 'the next level'.
how many other clubs have had high court action taken against them to date for non payment of tax?
A face
17/03/2006, 3:00 PM
Cork City is nearly full pro and we dont have massive debts ... i'd say it isn't as rosie in the garden as some people would have you believe but we are a million miles away for this sort of caper. People give out about Lennox not spending but the fact is .... if you dont have it to spend then you cant do it, end of.
There is no reason what so ever why it cant be done properly.
sullanefc
17/03/2006, 3:03 PM
Cork City is nearly full pro and we dont have massive debts ... i'd say it isn't as rosie in the garden as some people would have you believe but we are a million miles away for this sort of caper. People give out about Lennox not spending but the fact is .... if you dont have it to spend then you cant do it, end of.
There is no reason what so ever why it cant be done properly.
It just does to show that league titles can be won without overspending, and by running a tight ship. Cork City's title win is a victory for clubs that are run properly. :ball:
We won't buy a league title thank you :ball:
soccerc
17/03/2006, 3:17 PM
Cork City is nearly full pro and we dont have massive debts ... .... if you dont have it to spend then you cant do it, end of.
Hmmm, Face I wouldn't be so confident, all clubs have outstanding tax debts, some more than others, one or two even more than Shels some are in the postion of having already agreed repaywent schedules together with large lump sums, others are trying to pass the buck to old boards while the remainder have still to have the Revenue fully assess their liabilities...
No one is out of the woods yet..................fact!
dcfcsteve
17/03/2006, 3:57 PM
Should we all just give up and go amateur then? I mean what is the answer
To be honest - the answer might well be 'yes' !
This isn't short-sightedness or a lack of ambition. The cold hard reality of Irish football currently is that bar one or two clubs, the income just isn't there to have full-time set-ups. Clubs can ignore this fact and continue pursuing the dream of professionalism regardless of the cost - but sooner or later the bills have to be paid, and if the money isn't there to pay them then it's obvious what will happen !
Going amateur may be the ONLY sensible, viable option for the vast majority of our clubs, until such a time as there is more money in the game. Professionalism is only the holy grail if you can afford it. You cannot ignore the harsh financial realities of Irish football....
A face
17/03/2006, 4:07 PM
Hmmm, Face I wouldn't be so confident, all clubs have outstanding tax debts, some more than others, one or two even more than Shels some are in the postion of having already agreed repaywent schedules together with large lump sums, others are trying to pass the buck to old boards while the remainder have still to have the Revenue fully assess their liabilities...
Are clubs paying too much taxes, seriously, are they?
To explain, because clubs bring intangible benefits to the community they are in, shouldn't there be some sort of tax break for them.
soccerc
17/03/2006, 4:35 PM
Are clubs paying too much taxes, seriously, are they?
Face
I suggest you read the posts not just look at the words:p
A face
17/03/2006, 4:42 PM
Face
I suggest you read the posts not just look at the words:p
Ha ha .... seriously though, no other sporting club in this country seems to have the same problems we do or at least we never hear about it anyway. I know it sounds mad asking it but in my opinion sports clubs should get a small bit of leighway on the tax side of things. AFAIK, not fully up to speed on this but dont some English professional sportmen (and women) get tax breaks on what they earn. Clubs should get the same to a degree ..... i know this is a totally different thread and i aint the best one to start it, not being an accountant n'all but its worth looking at.
The problem with the likes of shels oversponding by such huge sums is it puts pressure on the rest of the league and causes all wages to rise.
Surely shels should be stopped from signing more players when in such debt? Any remember shels pleading the poor mouth after the floods only to sign Jason Byrne for league record...
Longford got fined for an incorrect address for club licencing & some other un known sanctions. Rovers lost 8 points when ther company folded. Shels got a club licence dispite large dents to the tax man, continued to sign more players & then were unable to stick to the agreement they got their licence baded on. What will happen to the FAIs darling club shels now?
A face
17/03/2006, 4:57 PM
The problem with the likes of shels oversponding by such huge sums is it puts pressure on the rest of the league and causes all wages to rise.
That actually is a very valid point ... i know that some of our players tried to hold the club to ransom to try and get more money, and obviously thats fine. They will always try and get the best deal. But with Shels race to the top, it gave players a bit of leverage, bargaining power if you will and put pressure on everyone else ..... and all the while Shels weren't in any sort of a position to behave the way they did.
Its not good for anyone, clubs, players ... i mean just look at Liam Kearney for example. All the hassle with him and he then went to Shels thinking all his prayers were answered, if Shels fold .... where is he left then, out on his ear ??
A face
17/03/2006, 5:01 PM
The 6.01 news in on now lads ... AFAIK Shels are one of the headlines.
Edit: Mentioned on TV3 news AFAIK
dcfcsteve
17/03/2006, 5:16 PM
Are clubs paying too much taxes, seriously, are they?
Your paying too bloody little - northern clubs (e.g. City) have to pay tax on our gate receipts as well, whilst ROI sports clubs don't !:(
A face
17/03/2006, 5:31 PM
Your paying too bloody little - northern clubs (e.g. City) have to pay tax on our gate receipts as well, whilst ROI sports clubs don't !:(
But in general, sporting organisation and clubs should be given some sort of break. They should not be in the same bracket as normal business imo (is that the case?) .... it just seems logical to question that side of it in debate, obviously Shels are way out of order here but there is no harm in actually looking at that situation, the cause and effect if you will.
all clubs have outstanding tax debts,
Not every club:D
BohDiddley
17/03/2006, 5:48 PM
That actually is a very valid point ... i know that some of our players tried to hold the club to ransom to try and get more money, and obviously thats fine. They will always try and get the best deal. But with Shels race to the top, it gave players a bit of leverage, bargaining power if you will and put pressure on everyone else ..... and all the while Shels weren't in any sort of a position to behave the way they did.
Its not good for anyone, clubs, players ... i mean just look at Liam Kearney for example. All the hassle with him and he then went to Shels thinking all his prayers were answered, if Shels fold .... where is he left then, out on his ear ??
This is the crux of it.
I have to say that I don't take any pleasure in this. Genuine Shels fans must be devastated.
But Shels management clearly were reckless when they used financial muscle to build their squad to a size completely out of proportion with the rest of the LoI. Added to that the malicious, spiteful way in which they went about breaking up a winning Bohs team, and it's hard to find any sympathy for those who run the club.
Maybe it's time for some fan power at Shels. Supporters who aren't in the current management's pocket should try to attend the application hearing.
A face
17/03/2006, 5:59 PM
Maybe it's time for some fan power at Shels. Supporters who aren't in the current management's pocket should try to attend the application hearing.
Regardless of what has happened here, i think that this is always a good thing and is a benefit to any club. You might think that directors of a club dont like the idea, but in truth if the directors are well intended and want the club to progress then they should welcome it.
soccerc
17/03/2006, 6:32 PM
Found this on Shels' MB, it shows how deluded some of their fans are
Pizzapie
If Accolade is to be wound up, surely that does not necessarilly mean that Shelbourne FC will automatically have to be taken down with it? The way i see it, Accolade is some sort of "holding company", with Shelbourne FC being another seperate company, but owned fully by Accolade, and is in fact a completely seperate brand.
Surely the Shelboune FC business can then (and even now) be bought or taken over by another company, and continue to trade as Shelbourne FC, without any need to lose any of our long history and heritage, nor lose our real name?
To avoid the winding up of Accolade, and the embarrasment of complete bankruptcy for its major shareholders, cant they sell off some of their assets, namely Shelbourne FC to cover the debt?
And were this to ever happen, isnt it possible that this could actually be in the clubs best interest and overall to Shelbourne FC`s advantage??
Bohs til I die reply
Once the petition is served, Accolade Ltd, trading as Shelbourne FC must pay that debt. You cannot transfer the debt to another company. Tthe debt is built up by Accolade as a result of Shelbourne's financial activities therefore must be resolved that way. Shels attained a licence on the basis of Accolade being tax compliant. To remove Shels from Accolade would mean Shels being removed from the league because Accolade hold the licence.
And Pizzapies head in the sand gets buried deeper with this
Dont be ridiculous!! Accolade are a company, not a football club! Only the Shelbourne FC part of the business are the only ones capable of holding any sort of UEFA licence!! Thats like saying that McDonalds can hold a UEFA licence... or to make it easier for you to understand, Des Kelly Carpets. They cant. They are not football teams.
I didnt say nor imply that the debt be transferred to another company. Read what i wrote again. I suggested that Accolade should sell off their asset, namely Shelboune FC to cover their debt. And Shelbourne FC would then have new owners, thus getting rid of the rot that has set in at management level. Everyone could then be happy.... well, with maybe the exception of Ollie. Who i care very little about. But even he would then be debt free.
Anyway, there will be a new league structure from next year
A face
17/03/2006, 6:38 PM
Anyway, there will be a new league structure from next year
Thats kinda scary alright but he is only a fan (thank f**k)
Is one of the criteria of the club licence a valid tax clearance cert? Why did the FAI fudge theis to give shels get a licence...?
bohs til i die
17/03/2006, 8:05 PM
Is one of the criteria of the club licence a valid tax clearance cert? Why did the FAI fudge theis to give shels get a licence...?
Shels were awarded a TCC on December 30th after reaching agreement on a repayment plan with the Revenue. They broke the agreement and the revenue issued the winding up order. I reckon there has been a series of repayment plan breaches for the revenue to go down this road based on what I know from what has happened at Bohs.
Shels fans are seriously deluded over this. Ollie could just walk away in an instant if the going gets too tough and leave Shels in limbo, yet they continue to accuse other clubs of being jealous.
Bohs may not be run perfectly but the members do have a huge insight into the club, its finances and the general running of the club. We are able to have a say in the future of our club/ground [the groundshare for example] and we get annual accounts.
green-blood
17/03/2006, 8:22 PM
Bohs have had a pretty miserable couple of seasons, compared with the turn of the centrury and the trophies that came thier way, as bad as their finances are they have been able to do the deals, keep the revenue from the door and put a side on the pitch that wont sink the ship, tightened belts, curtailed squads, lost/sold assets....Shels it seems have put all their eggs in the "winning" basket, I wonder had they beaten Linfield mid week would any of this have come to light?? that 200K will be severly missed now.
whoever Pizzapie is he is seriously deluded, Accolade hold Shelbournes league licence, if they are wound up, then shelbourne depart the Eircom league at the drop of a judges hammer. <- thats a fullstop btw.
Rovers went into voluntary examinership and on the other end convinced a judge (a self proclaimed Bohs fan, I was in the court) we were a going concern. The revenue are seeking the liquidation of Accolade and all its assets - ie Shelbourne FC limited.
Right now Ollie as 99% shareholder has 15 days to find 300K plus and hope no other creditors turn up and add their debts to the judges list.
I'd hate to see SFC go to the wall forever, for the fans,for the history, but I'd love to see the end of OC and his bully boy histrionics dispatched from "our" league - how can both of those aspirations be made happen,
Réiteoir
17/03/2006, 10:19 PM
Lads - want to chuck €10 in each to get a big banner done to take to all future games against Shels?
50 foot long with the word "Ju$tic€" in 6 foot high letters?
A face
18/03/2006, 12:27 AM
Lads - want to chuck €10 in each to get a big banner done to take to all future games against Shels?
50 foot long with the word "Ju$tic€" in 6 foot high letters?
Is that whether its seen or not seen to be done !! :eek:
Seriously ..... its all eyes on the league to see how the handle this one. They'll have a bit of a breather up until April 3rd, whatever happens there it'll will fast ... yae or nay and thats it.
Its what the league do afterwards that we'll be curious to see. Licencing, Rules books, Showing example, Sitting on the can to keep the worms in ..... because they'll have to get this one right. If the league and the FAI are to merge then this could (not saying it is, just could) be what decides it.
Magicme
18/03/2006, 1:39 AM
What riles me is that all clubs had to sign a letter in January to Licensing saying if anything had changed so even if Shels werent aware of problem prior to Jan, (which is doubtful tbh) they fraudlently signed off on this letter to the licensing committee.
Sorry but as a mons fan with a club that has been pushed to the limit to provide evidence to prove that we are licence worthy, this **** really rankles.
A face
18/03/2006, 2:43 AM
Sorry but as a mons fan with a club that has been pushed to the limit to provide evidence to prove that we are licence worthy, this **** really rankles.
extremities, two sides to a piece of string …. The league have questions to answer, there is no question of that. The thing is how many questions and how long for is the thing ??
This wont be going away and there is a chance it will never go away either if the league dont answer the questions properly and fully. They may not actually realise how much under the spot light the actually are ?? :eek:
Licencing .... it works every single which way possible or reword/scrape it !!
Genisis Two/Who ??
Sort it !!
sfc red
18/03/2006, 2:56 AM
Lads - want to chuck €10 in each to get a big banner done to take to all future games against Shels?
50 foot long with the word "Ju$tic€" in 6 foot high letters?
Get a job
Breifne
18/03/2006, 10:06 AM
What riles me is that all clubs had to sign a letter in January to Licensing saying if anything had changed so even if Shels werent aware of problem prior to Jan, (which is doubtful tbh) they fraudlently signed off on this letter to the licensing committee.
I had actually forgotten about this, we had to submit a letter no more than 3 days prior to the licensing committee meetings that no event had taken place that had an affect on our financial position. There is no way possible that the Revenue have made this petition now and that shels weren't aware of this prior to that letter being submitted.
The Revenue are fair in their dealings, and would have gone through the relevant channels, I know a number of clubs have broken agreements with the Revenue before and have managed to re-negotiate their repayment agreements. This situation is either gross neglect of their Revenue liability by Shelbourne or the revenue clamping down on eL clubs after getting burned by 96% by Rovers.
Réiteoir
18/03/2006, 12:50 PM
Get a job
I do have a job actually - and it's a good one
I earn €40,000 per year and have an excellent benefits package making biscuit tins, brown envelopes and packaging up large amounts of sand for the express purpose of people burying their heads in it.
Plus I pay tax and PRSI
How about you?
Dodge
18/03/2006, 12:58 PM
Ah lads don't get peronal. A better answer would've been. I have a job and pay tax and PRSI...
Réiteoir
18/03/2006, 1:09 PM
Ah lads don't get peronal. A better answer would've been. I have a job and pay tax and PRSI...
Cheerfully edited
sfc red
18/03/2006, 1:33 PM
And what did you say beforehand???
I'd swear you were chatting me up here :o
Roverstillidie
18/03/2006, 2:47 PM
from their 2004 audited accounts:
Due to the flooding in November 2002, we cannot ascertain what assets and liabilities exist in the club. All records were destroyed. The club has failed to record transactions which may give rise to 'additional amounts receiveable' or 'addition liabilities'. Proper books have not been kept by the company. We could not provide the necessary audit tests because evidence available was limited and records maintained by the company did not form an adequate basis for these tests resulting in insufficent evidence to give reasonable assurance that the financial statements are free from material misstatements.
The company engages in a wide range of activities carried on for the purpose of fund-raising or to provide a benefit for supporters ( no small mention of running a football club). Bookeeping is performed by small permanent staff regarding the activities executed by a large number of volunteers (no mention of professional playing staff).. Independent confirmation by us that all transactions were properly recorded was not generally available and concludes that the task of audit work was...... (virtually impossible)."
now the $64,000 question: HOW DID THEY GET A LICENCE?
and how many points do they lose for their licence application?
A face
18/03/2006, 3:03 PM
Its actually unreal when you think of it, i mean some of the things the Ollie has been up to over the years to undermine other clubs. Its like he was setting up a surface to air missle base in a greenhouse at times.
There is pushing the boat out and then there is sinking it. :eek:
This is the same guy who wanted us thrown out've the league last year instead of docking points, then couldn't get us into Tolka quick enough this season :o
CollegeTillIDie
18/03/2006, 4:57 PM
Now Rovers fans know why you were so welcome all of a sudden in Tolka Park ;)
Réiteoir
18/03/2006, 6:29 PM
This is the same guy who wanted us thrown out've the league last year instead of docking points, then couldn't get us into Tolka quick enough this season :o
I think his decision on trying to get you in this season was more a monetary decision than one based on his quite lowbrow "principles"
bohs til i die
18/03/2006, 7:28 PM
now the $64,000 question: HOW DID THEY GET A LICENCE?
and how many points do they lose for their licence application?
Shels obtained a Licence because they had a TCC, issued on December 30th. The reason the revenue are going down this road I because Shels have defaulted on the agreement they made with the revenue to obtain the TCC.
Shels cannot be sanctionned for this by the league or FAI because they have done nothing wrong in the rules of the league.
pineapple stu
18/03/2006, 7:35 PM
What about the proviso in the licencing that a club must inform the Licencing Committee of any change of circumstances up to three days before the meeting of the licencing committee? Having outstanding tax is enough to fail to get a licence if you don't have an agreement to repay it. Shels have now defaulted on this agreement, so can it be said to exist?
That said, having read through the licencing document, there seems to be an inordinate amount of "unless" clauses designed to provide the FAI any excuse to allow a club pass and so fudge the issue.
green-blood
18/03/2006, 8:23 PM
Shels cannot be sanctionned for this by the league or FAI because they have done nothing wrong in the rules of the league
exactly, but they get fecked out of the league if they are wound up.... roll on April 2nd, 2 days for fools this year
thomas
19/03/2006, 6:35 AM
This is how I understand the situation having spoken to quite a number of people, some of whom would have a good insight into the workings of the eL.
It seems that last October/November the Revenue approached Shels with a tax bill including penalties and interest, (the amount is not of consequence in the overall scheme of things). Shels replied to them disputing the amount.
The eL/FAI got involved with a senior official attending meetings with Shels and the Revenue to sort out the repayment terms. As a result of those negotiations a schedule was agreed and Shels received their licence.
It then appears that the club failed to meet the repayment schedule and the Revenue made contact intimating their next course of action. The seriousness of the situation allegedly was ignored forcing the Revenue to seek the petition to wind up Accolade.
I understand that the eL Board of Management were not aware of the ongoing difficulties though senior officials may have been informed and this it seems may come back to haunt Shels. Some clubs are angry at what they perceive as inequitable application of both the eL rules and the Club Licensing regulations.
Shels are expected to meet their liabilities to the revenue in the coming days and the April High Court date will pass without the Petiton being presented.
In the interests of balance and fairness if anyone wishes to dispute or add to the above then I would be happy to oblige
The most important thing for shels at this point was to have told the licensing body otherwise there will be sanctions. If they pay the debt then there'll be no punishment.
thomas
19/03/2006, 6:41 AM
Just to clear up green blood, the rules allow a non incorporated entity, Shelbourne FC, to hold the license. My understanding is that the associated accolade company does not hold the license, the football club does.
Its a get out both shels and longford have taken advantage of.
I think his decision on trying to get you in this season was more a monetary decision than one based on his quite lowbrow "principles"
That was my point, the man has f*** all principles
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