Dublin's big four have grounds for sharing

[thejollyrodger]

Dublin's big four have grounds for sharing
Emmet Malone

On Soccer: This could be an eventful week for the FAI-backed scheme to get Dublin's four biggest clubs to ground-share. Shelbourne and Bohemians are set to meet, probably on Thursday, with a view to continue their negotiations some 24 hours after a group of St Patrick's Athletic supporters gather to discuss ways in which they might oppose the possible sale of Richmond Park.

A deal on the northside looks a distinct possibility in the not too distant future, with the pragmatists in both camps having apparently won the day. At Bohemians, there is said to be a realisation that the only serious options for the club are to allow Shelbourne in or to sell up and move to the suburbs. Long-time club secretary Gerry Cuffe feels while there is caution about any deal most of the club's members are primarily concerned with what is on offer. He believes, he says, a mutually beneficial arrangement can be reached.
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Rumour has it the terms discussed involve Shelbourne investing €3 million in the ground and paying €5 million to their neighbours. A new company would be established to take charge of the ground with each club owning 50 per cent and Bohemians members attending their recent AGM were given assurances that an unnamed Shelbourne director would have not have a prominent role in this new joint venture. But doubts have been expressed about the wisdom of the deal given it would generate neither the required cash to satisfactorily redevelop Dalymount nor to secure the future of Bohemians in the long term given the club lost €720,000 last year alone (Shelbourne officials are said to have conceded during talks with their Bohemians counterparts that their figure was some €220,000 higher).

The ground requires an enormous amount of work and even allowing for the substantial support that would be expected to flow from Government the two clubs might quickly work through their combined reserves if they were serious about building a high-quality stadium.

Estimates of the stadium's real estate value vary from €30 million to around twice that figure and there are some fans who argue that selling up and using the cash to establish a new stadium and training facilities in the suburbs makes more sense. The FAI and Government would look dimly on such a move as, it seems, would Shelbourne at this stage given they own a lease on Tolka Park rather the ground itself and cannot, therefore, hope to raise as much money by having the developers around.

The scenario across the city might be more complicated but there are striking similarities, with those in charge at St Patrick's Athletic said to be weighing up an offer of €26 million for Richmond Park. Club officials deny any specific offer has been made and insist there are binding agreements in place that would prevent the money leaving the club, but a sale looks to be the only way that those who have loaned substantial amounts of money will ever be repaid.

Things are more complicated because the club has never exactly owned Richmond Park which was always made up of several difference parcels of land, but a number of leases have been bought out of late and members of the Patrons Club were told in January that about 80 per cent of the property had now been consolidated with negotiations well under way to acquire the rest.

The fragmented nature of the old structure was always reassuring for fans who are suspicious about the sudden determination to assemble such a prime piece of real estate and are concerned about the intentions of Gerry Mulvey and his wife, Sharon, who own just over 50 per cent of the club after acquiring most of Tim O'Flaherty's stake as well as a number of smaller holdings such as that of former club administrator and PRO Gary Brannigan.

Mulvey, who has kept a low profile since first becoming involved with the club a couple of years back, made comfortably in excess of €10 million from a previous sale of land and taking sums paid for the 75,500 shares acquired in the club last year as a guide, he and his wife have spent around €635,000 on their stake in the club. Other shareholders include chairman Andy O'Callaghan with about 29 per cent and 14 others with much smaller stakes like Brian Kerr, Pat Dolan and Phil Mooney.

O'Callaghan has long signalled his willingness to discuss a move and preliminary talks have taken place about a ground-share with Shamrock Rovers - a move that is, once again, backed by the FAI and Government. The timing of any such move would appear to be poor from the point of view of Rovers, whose long overdue arrival in Tallaght will be more beneficial if they have the whole area to themselves, while supporters of St Patrick's fear they would end up being secondary tenants at the new stadium.

Given Rovers are effectively getting something for next to nothing here, they wouldn't appear to be in the strongest possible position to argue but there are other factors too with local GAA clubs still threatening legal action over the decision to exclude them from the stadium development and council officials having to weigh up whether their stated aim of developing a community soccer stadium will have any meaning if two clubs are playing up to 80 games a year there. Another possibility is a move by St Patrick's to a green-field site where, like Bohemians, those who favour the idea suggest they could not only build a stadium but also establish a high quality training facility and academy.

"I seem to remember much the same sort of talk from Louis Kilcoyne when Rovers were leaving Milltown," observed one alarmed fan yesterday. "And I don't want us to become the new them."


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/sport/2006/0314/2647200223SP1EMMET.html
© The Irish Times
Intresting times.. Im in favour of a greenfield site for Shels and Bohs personally.

[bigmac]

Bohemians members attending their recent AGM were given assurances that an unnamed Shelbourne director would have not have a prominent role in this new joint venture

:D Wonder who that is?

Interesting speculation on Shels losing more than Bohs last year, wonder who this came from.

[Schumi]

Bohemians... lost €720,000 last year alone (Shelbourne officials are said to have conceded during talks with their Bohemians counterparts that their figure was some €220,000 higher).
Shels lost nearly €1m last year? :eek:

[Block G Raptor]

€5m and a new stand for a half share of Dalymount. They have got to be taking the P!ss.

[hoops1]

Ive never been any good at maths
but could someone please explain to me
how Bohs can make a deal with Shels for 8 million
while they are sitting on a piece of land worth between
30 and 60 million

[CharlesThompson]

Ive never been any good at maths
but could someone please explain to me
how Bohs can make a deal with Shels for 8 million
while they are sitting on a piece of land worth between
30 and 60 million

To the best of my knowledge as a member of Bohs, we haven't made a deal with Shels for €8m.

[hoops1]

According to the above article If and i know its a big IF true
A deal could be done between the clubs for 8million
5million to Bohs and 3 million put into the ground improvements.
For 50%. Now forgive me if im wrong but when I went
to school the half of 60million is 30 million.
No matter what way you look at it bohs are going to be shafted!

[pineapple stu]

Ive never been any good at maths but could someone please explain to me how Bohs can make a deal with Shels for 8 million while they are sitting on a piece of land worth between 30 and 60 million
Possibly the FAI have made threats to Bohs that if they don't comply, they won't get voted into the Premier next season.

[chippie0001]

According to the above article If and i know its a big IF true
A deal could be done between the clubs for 8million
5million to Bohs and 3 million put into the ground improvements.
For 50%. Now forgive me if im wrong but when I went
to school the half of 60million is 30 million.
No matter what way you look at it bohs are going to be shafted!

Bohs won't be shafted plain and simple. If this deal was to go ahead the board would need 75% of the members to pass it and that just is not going to happen. The above article is to push people into an agreement by making it look like its already been done. Pats will be the big beneficaries, a new stadium in Tallaght and €26m. Thats a nice choice to have.

[chippie0001]

Possibly the FAI have made threats to Bohs that if they don't comply, they won't get voted into the Premier next season.
If thats the case we can join Brendan Dillon's court action if UCD get thrown out. Good chance with him the FAI would lose.

[pineapple stu]

More than welcome.

Wasn't it rumoured here and on the Bohs forum that Bohs mightn't make the cut? Or was that just random idle speculation? Must try and find the links.

[Poor Student]

At the rate of losing €1m a year it sounds like Shels will die if they can't get into Dalymount. That would put Bohs in a position of strength if you ask me.

[Schumi]

At the rate of losing €1m a year it sounds like Shels will die if they can't get into Dalymount. That would put Bohs in a position of strength if you ask me.
They won't survive in Dalymount either at that rate of loss.

[Poor Student]

They won't survive in Dalymount either at that rate of loss.

It'll give them a stay of execution though.

[pineapple stu]

Don't see why. They still have to adjust their budgets to live frugally, which they show no sign of doing.

Isn't Shels' turnover only in the region of E2m a year? A 50% loss is mightily impressive.

[Bald Student]

It's all speculation though. I tend to take everything I read in the papers with a pinch of salt. Especially since the article didn't seem very well researched, there was no mention of the fact that this will almost certainly not get past the Bohs members or that 3 million will certainly not build the 20,000 seater stadium proposed.

[pineapple stu]

Well, yes, that's true. There's an awful lot of agenda-driven reporting lately which bears absolutely no relevance to the facts. The eL Weekly debate on the new league format - which concentrated solely on the grounds issue - is another case in point. Also interesting to see Pat's progressing with what sounds like fairly substantial ground improvements even though they're all but moved into Tallaght according to some sources.

[thejollyrodger]

well I guess the Irish times doesnt know all the facts behind the story but its intresting all the same. Shels wont get THAT much money from selling up Tolka since they dont own it. Whatever money they do get of course will have to be split 50/50 with Bohs and the stadium should they decide to ground share.

Personally I think this is very unbalanced. Bohs do kind of lose out because they are sitting on a stadium which is worth €30+million. But if two clubs were to move to a green field site bohs would lose out as well because Shels wouldnt be able to match their €30million investment in a stadium, academy and training facilities.

The government wont be able to throw that much cash at this problem as the Bogballers will have a heart attack.

[BohDiddley]

The government wont be able to throw that much cash at this problem as the Bogballers will have a heart attack.
Precisely. The future of one Dublin's oldest football clubs is in the hands of a Kerryman, and it shows. Election can't come soon enough.
Talk of Bohs being excluded arbitrarily from the EL, or whatever follows it, is poppycock.
Any league that would contemplate doing that isn't worth being part of.

[Dassa]

sorry to ask but why do st Pats and shels have to leave their grounds. If this has been asked before give me the benifit o the doubt only getting to grips with the EL. As for the figures that those clubs are talking about loosing each year. those figures are seriously scary.

[sonofstan]

Pats don't have to - think their debts are manageable thanks to a few years of austerity; on the other hand they own most of the freehold on richmond so the board and various investors stand to make a fair bit. Shels are - despite denials- in real trouble, and the only way to realise some cash is to sell what's left of their lease on Tolka. initial idea was to move to a green field site out in the sticks, but after the genesis report into the future of the game down here, the FAI came up with idea of them moving into Dalymount - and now both Shels and the Fai are treating as a fait accompli

[Speranza]

They have to leave because that is what the big wigs want. Shels move has been planned for ages, they seem to have no support base in Drumcondra and had a move to the sticks on the cards, this now seems to have been scrapped.

Pats don't have to move. I would be disgusted if Pats were coerced into leaving Inchicore as no club should be taken away from its community.

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.c

edit: sorry sonofstan didn't see your post

[Bald Student]

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.cI don't really buy that argument myself. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand. A full international would have to be very small to fit into the proposed 10,000 seater stadia.

I think this whole thing is an example of short term thinking. The money released from the sales will allow the clubs to spend beyond their incomes for a good length of time and in a decade or so when the money runs out it'll be back to square one only with two less stadia in the city.

[wws]

Although the motives aren't public posters here speculate that the FAI want two stadiums in Dublin. These two stadia can be developed to hold small internationals and U-21 matches e.t.c


The motives are public - its official Govt/FAI policy. The war on this though is only just beginning - expect murder at pats over the next few matches as the fans make their voice heard - we're being filleted by speculators - same ole League of Ireland nonsense only this time with the FAI/Govt twist thrown in for good measure.


I predict a riot! literally? time will tell.....

[CharlesThompson]

I don't really buy that argument myself. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand. A full international would have to be very small to fit into the proposed 10,000 seater stadia.

I think this whole thing is an example of short term thinking. The money released from the sales will allow the clubs to spend beyond their incomes for a good length of time and in a decade or so when the money runs out it'll be back to square one only with two less stadia in the city.

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance - I agree with the overall point you're making though.

On the issue at hand, I will be surprised if the Bohs membership vote for what looks like is currently on the table. It's just not a good deal.

I'd like to see though what the thoughts of the Shels support is regarding this article and some of the numbers in it. If Shels lost circa €1m last year with CL and Setanta Cup football, how are they supposed to survive unless Ollie wins the Euro Millions draw? Are you even beginning to get worried?

[pineapple stu]

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance - I agree with the overall point you're making though.
If Shels lost circa €1m last year with CL and Setanta Cup football, how are they supposed to survive unless Ollie wins the Euro Millions draw? Are you even beginning to get worried?
I think you answered yourself there. Shels have been as dominant as any club in the league in the last while - probably ever if you take into account European money, etc., which wasn't around in Rovers' day - and they're losing money hand over fist according to the article. There's also a school of thought that says they've already sold the ground and used the money to finance their recent success, which would mean we're actually two or three years down the road Bald Student is describing.

[OneRedArmy]

The motives are public - its official Govt/FAI policy. The war on this though is only just beginning - expect murder at pats over the next few matches as the fans make their voice heard - we're being filleted by speculators - same ole League of Ireland nonsense only this time with the FAI/Govt twist thrown in for good measure.


I predict a riot! literally? time will tell.....
Took the words out of my mouth WWS. The Pats example, particularly re the recent consolidation of land ownership into a few hands, smacks of pure Kilcoynism.

Unsurprising given current property values, but it should provoke more clubs into ensuring their grounds are transferred to supporters trust-type structures which contain sufficient covenants and clauses to ensure the speculators don't get their hands on the land.

[Bald Student]

What school do you go to? By my maths the money released from a sale is part of their income, therefore allowing a club to spend more than any other in order to assert dominance I'm an engineering student in UCD. There's a difference between capital and current income though. My junior cert business studies book told me that spending capital income on current expenditure is not sustainable. This is an example of that.

[hoopy]

. Very few underage internationals would sell out Tolka or Dalymount as they presently stand.

The thing is John O'Donoghue has already stated that once Tallaght is up and running he wants the Junior internationals played there

[chippie0001]

Took the words out of my mouth WWS. The Pats example, particularly re the recent consolidation of land ownership into a few hands, smacks of pure Kilcoynism.

Unsurprising given current property values, but it should provoke more clubs into ensuring their grounds are transferred to supporters trust-type structures which contain sufficient covenants and clauses to ensure the speculators don't get their hands on the land.
But how many clubs actually own their own land? Not many by my workings which mean most clubs are stuck with choices made by outside parties.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Precisely. The future of one Dublin's oldest football clubs is in the hands of a Kerryman, and it shows. Election can't come soon enough.
Talk of Bohs being excluded arbitrarily from the EL, or whatever follows it, is poppycock.
Any league that would contemplate doing that isn't worth being part of.

To be fair it's a Kerryman who has prevented bogball being played in the stadium in Tallaght !

[pete]

The sums of money invloved are huge by eL standards. Where are Pats getting 26m from? Surely nobody would pay that for their land & if its from the FAI then they just giving a massive subsidy.

IMO the dublin clubs should should show the FAI/government they can live within their means & stop spending their way to success & massive debts.

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

[ConfusedBlue]

The sums of money invloved are huge by eL standards. Where are Pats getting 26m from? Surely nobody would pay that for their land & if its from the FAI then they just giving a massive subsidy.

IMO the dublin clubs should should show the FAI/government they can live within their means & stop spending their way to success & massive debts.

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

Isn't that what the UEFA licencing is for,to put a stop to clubs living beyond their means?If you don't have your finances in order,you don't get a licence!!

[monkey magic]

Shels in particular losing 50% of their turnover is almost criminal. The sooner there is a cap on spending the better!

if that article is correct then bohs arent much better, 720,000 if frightening for a club who finished mid-table...

someone else mentioned short term thinking.. if anything this is an attempt at long term thinking in terms of developing better infrastructure and giving the clubs a base from which to build, dosent mean its a good idea though, and having property developers sniffing around is a serious red light, those are a class of individuals i inherently dont trust and should not be let near the pats boardroom, with whats at stake here.

[pete]

if that article is correct then bohs arent much better, 720,000 if frightening for a club who finished mid-table...


I thought someone put up the Bohs accounts a few weeks ago that showed 400k & 300k loses in the last 2 years? Where did they get 720k from?

[monkey magic]

maybe thats a figure for their outstanding debt? i would have thought it was more though..

[pineapple stu]

Those losses are all too commonplace in the league though. Pat's made a E400k loss last year (or the year before; can't remember which), Bray E250k and Drogs E100k or so (you can download their accounts through CRO.ie). Big figures. One area of licencing which does seem to have been adhered to though is that clubs must be solvent. So the likes of Pat's and Bray have recently issued E400k or so of share capital just to become solvent. Of course, if they make a loss this year, they'll be insolvent and have to issue share capital again, so there's now a big incentive on clubs to get their houses in order. That's probably why Pat's are in such a slump lately - trying to get themselves in order. I've only seen one club who made a profit last year - Kildare County, who finished third bottom of Division One after three seasons just outside the play-offs.

Bohs and Shels, I think, own their own grounds? In that case, they'd have a much stronger asset base, could probably borrow against the grounds and would basically have to make losses equal to the value of their ground before UEFA Licencing becomes an issue for them.

Curiously, Shels (Accolade Ltd) don't file accounts, taking an exemption under the grounds that the purpose of the company is not to make gains for its members (!). All their most recent submission shows is that they made a loss in 2004 as well, but are solvent.

On the Bohs issue, how does the members' club bit work? Or basically, how would the vote to accept/refuse the groundsharing work? Does each member have one vote or are there weightings at all (like in a limited company, where you normally have one vote per share)? How many members are there, and are they all fans?

[Schumi]

Bohs and Shels, I think, own their own grounds?Shels have (or had?) a 30?-year lease on Tolka. They never owned it.


Does each member have one vote or are there weightings at all (like in a limited company, where you normally have one vote per share)?
One-member, one-vote I'd assume.

[sonofstan]

one member, one vote - there are somewhere in the region of 500 of us, and, AFAIK although we are the sole shareholders in the club, we can't make a profit from its sale or the sale of any of its assets, so there is no incentive to sell to line our pockets. As for all the members being fans - there's no advantage to it (see above) and, if you wanted to swing a vote you'd have to join up in sizeable numbers at 330e a pop, which might look suspicious, (plus applications have to be seconded and approved by the board)especially now, so no, I don't think Oliver's Army could undermine us from within.

[Dassa]

The whole thing seems to be quite a mess for clubs especially Shelbourne. No future at their Ground and losses of that nature cant be sustained. Heres hoping they get something sorted, for the future of the club and its fans.

[Mr A]

There are 2 pretty much seperate issues here- insane levels of overspending all over the league that is totally unsustainable and the grounds issue. If the clubs involved have sense they'll keep the two issues seperate and not use capital gains for current expenditure. I don't think you'd get great odds on that though! Whatever happens there needs to be a serious look at how many clubs are run, or else we'll never escape the endless cycle of financial crisis after financial crisis.

[BohDiddley]

The whole thing seems to be quite a mess for clubs especially Shelbourne. No future at their Ground and losses of that nature cant be sustained. Heres hoping they get something sorted, for the future of the club and its fans.
Sometimes it's important to get an objective opinion. This entire wheeze seems to be aimed at sorting out Shelbourne's future.

[ThatGuy]

The whole thing seems to be quite a mess for clubs especially Shelbourne. No future at their Ground and losses of that nature cant be sustained. Heres hoping they get something sorted, for the future of the club and its fans.
Seems to be a "get out of jail free" card for Shelbourne to me.

[pineapple stu]

Here's hoping they get something sorted, for the future of the club and its fans.
With all due respect for Shels' fans, for whom I have a lot of time in general, I'd almost be inclined to say sod the club. IF (to avoid the inevitable "What do you know" retorts) the stories about Ollie selling the ground without an alternative lined up and million pound losses in a single season are true, then this is a disgraceful way to run an eL club and it's about time the FAI or someone (Bohs will do nicely) stood up to this kind of thing. And hey, Ollie's hoping to put my club out of existence for all intents and purposes, so I'm quite happy to wish the same on his. He's a cancer on the game here and I hope he gets what's coming to him.

I can't help but see a future 20 years down the line where Shels are homeless, wandering from ground to ground, in administration and relegated. And in an ironic twist, wearing a green and white away kit. The way to stop this is to get Shels to buck up, not to bully other clubs to let them keep their reckless ways. You'd have thought the FAI had learnt from the Rovers saga, but no. Evidently not.

And for balance's sake, if Shels have genuine bona fide reasons for desiring/needing to move into Dalyer - none come to mind at the moment, mind - then the best of luck to them.

[Poor Student]

I've only seen one club who made a profit last year - Kildare County, who finished third bottom of Division One after three seasons just outside the play-offs.



Did I hear the Harps did too? What about Kilkenny? Did we make a loss?

You've seen a trend in Scotland where clubs have copped on and stopped overspending and cut back expenditure even if it meant doing badly. The likes of Hibs and Motherwell have just kept developing young players and selling them on and decided never to splash out again. Balancing the books have to be a priority. I've had someone important in the game tell me if that's the height of ambition in this country then you may as well give up. I think Irish football won't sort itself out until this kind of attitude goes by the wayside.

[desaintsno.12]

spot on pineapplestu. ya nailed it der. ollie deserves everythin he gets.i'll haqve no sympathy for them,. he seems to tnk that because they are Irelands "elite " team (not my opinion by de way) that everything is different for them. i'll have some smile on me de day he finally gets it. it will happen. keep de faith.

[Block G Raptor]

spot on pineapplestu. ya nailed it der. ollie deserves everythin he gets.i'll haqve no sympathy for them,. he seems to tnk that because they are Irelands "elite " team (not my opinion by de way) that everything is different for them. i'll have some smile on me de day he finally gets it. it will happen. keep de faith.
Your not on your mobile now quit da txt sht

[pete]

Clubs are not there to make a profit but massive losses on the scale of Shels should not be essentially condoned by the league.

[CollegeTillIDie]

pete

In the modern climate, Clubs need to , at the very least , balance their books.
Or else risk going the way of Omagh Town!

[anto eile]

Pats don't have to move. I would be disgusted if Pats were coerced into leaving Inchicore as no club should be taken away from its community.



pats may be bribed/coerced/forced into groundsharing tallaght.

i would imagine a compromise along the lines of this: they could sell half richmond for apartments, then on the other half build a clubhouse/offices/shop/members bar/all weather facility etc to keep the club based in richmond. while playing games in tallaght, (its not too far up the road on the luas or bus.)
given groundsharing is likely to be forced, that would probably be pats best way of playing in a 10,000 modern all-seater stadium while still maintaining their inchicore identity