Anti-War March, Dublin 18th of March

[dahamsta]

Kind of, but I was referring more to that fact that I'm not going to repeat my rebuttal. Again.

[hamish]

This is worth a look.

"How do we fix the mess in Iraq?"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12313.htm

This is where I agree with mypost.:eek: :)

It's a quote from the above article.


"We cannot "fix" Iraq. The Iraqis surely can, and the sooner they are able to get started, the better. We might lead by example, illustrating to the Iranian clerics, and the Turkish nationalists, and the Israeli adventurers that it is polite and proper to give a partner some space, to let them find their own way."

[liam88]

Liam, I already told you I'm not going to repeat myself, and I'm not going to fish around in your post for points that aren't the same arguments retold.


The only reason I've re-told arguments is because you didn't respond to them



I will say, though, that your suggestion that people that oppose the "war", by extension support(ed) Saddam and the Taliban is frankly disgusting;


I never said they support them-I said by logic they would prefer them in power. I said before Afghanistan has existed in two situation Tliban controlled and Coalition controlled. Now by opposing a war to overthrow the Taliban surely said person is wanting the Taliban to stay in power?

Ok maybe i'm wrong but if I am here is my question to everyone who opposed/opposes the war:

What would you have preffered happened?

I mean to be honest personally I would have preffered a decent UN intervention but that was never going to happen-they didn't even have the will to intervene in Rwanda where 10 000 people were massacred with machettes. Now if they can't even stop a load of genocidal knife wielding maniacs how an earth can they overthrow the Taliban or Saddam? I agree with Hither Green ont here being worse regimes-I activly campaign against the Burmese and Chinese regimes as I think that these are the two worst in the world (maybe swayed by personal conenctions?) But it's not an "all or nothing situation-i'd rather one or two barbaric regimes were overthrown than none. If/when Burma is liberated I certainly don't want people campaigning against the liberation because North Korea reamins opressed.
Whatever the reason-whatever the dmage, Saddam and the Taliban are out of power and to my mind that is a good thing and worth it.



If you honestly believe that, well, I honestly feel sorry for you.

[Comment edited as it may be construed as personal by defensive types. :)]


Attack the post not the poster?

[hamish]

Don't think anyone sheds tears for the Taliban or Saddam Liam88.

I, strangely, kinda agree a tiny bit with Condex and co. in that Islam has to get stronger and moderate leaders out front to diminish the effects that the radicals are having. I mean, the rads are infesting the mosques everywere according to a Muslim commentator on BBC last week and are setting the agenda left, right and centre.

Of course, Bubble Boy, Bliar and co aren't helping with their idiotic and immoral campaign in the Middle East.

Remember too that Saddam was a friend of the US and the West when it suited them.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html

Although Rumsfeld said during a September 21, 2002 CNN interview, "In that visit, I cautioned him about the use of chemical weapons, as a matter of fact, and discussed a host of other things," the document indicates there was no mention of chemical weapons.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/30/sproject.irq.regime.change/

-------------------------

This is interesting when one considers the way the US might be going. Just found it on Newshounds. Not as off topic as you might think.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism

("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003)

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

--------------------

The Parasites of God - know your enemy if you want to march.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12336.htm

[CollegeTillIDie]

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=440513&postcount=12

[CollegeTillIDie]

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=440513&postcount=12

[CollegeTillIDie]

CollegeTillIDie would you by any chance be anti-American:rolleyes:

The reason that the UN doesnt function properly is that its rotten and corrupt!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200602/s1571851.htm

and that is why there was no action taken in Darfur where 10,000s of people have been killed..

Condex

Did you read my previous post about asking the petitionists who they represented?
The petition would have been anti-Ronald Reagan's visit to Ireland as far as I can recall.
I refused to sign the petition because the petitioner would not tell me what organisation he represented instead roundly abused me and my friend. I disagree with Bush big time. Had no issues with Bill Clinton at all so no I am not Anti-American.

The Americans are NOT the only people with permanent veto on the UN Security Council.

[hamish]

Here's an interesting article I came across from the FAIR** website (via The O'Franken Factor) today.

http://www.ofrankenfactor.com/


**Fairness Accuracy In Reporting.

[Plastic Paddy]

The only reason I've re-told arguments is because you didn't respond to them

I know how that feels... ;)

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=450412&postcount=44

:ball: PP

[hamish]

Here are a couple of interviews I strongly suggest you folks watch. Both are with, what might be termed, traditional Republicans. One, Kevin Phillips, has a new book out called "American Theocracy" and he blasts the current administration to a degree that even astonished me - even the Democrats would be surprised.
Colonel Larry Wilkerson is a former assistant to Colin Powell and he is wants the Republican part back, away from the current cabal of wingnuts and neo-cons.
Phillip's interview is around 33 minutes while Wilkerson's is about 13 minutes.
Any comments?? Please ler me know what you think.

Kevin Phillips
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12430.htm

Larry Wilkerson
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12433.htm

When even traditional Republicans are worried then the US is in real trouble.

[dancinpants]

I'm surprised that as many times as Iran has been brought up in discussions in this forum, everyone neglected to mention that Haliburton operate a subsidiary out of Tehran. When was it set up? When Dead Eye Dick was their CEO. Oh how I laughed.

[hamish]

I'm surprised that as many times as Iran has been brought up in discussions in this forum, everyone neglected to mention that Haliburton operate a subsidiary out of Tehran. When was it set up? When Dead Eye Dick was their CEO. Oh how I laughed.

Yeah, dancinpants, those fcukers have their dirty little fingers everywhere, along with Bechtle.

[Plastic Paddy]

Yeah, dancinpants, those fcukers have their dirty little fingers everywhere, along with Bechtle.

Bechtel is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Halliburton. Go figure. :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

[hamish]

Bechtel is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Halliburton. Go figure. PP

Plus a few others in that "in-crowd" PP
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0321219
Mornin' to ya amigo.:)

PS - did you have a look at the two videos I loaded a couple of posts above? -
I ordered "American Theocracy" from one of the interviewees and the other is a former Colin Powell sidekick Col. Larry Wilkerson.

The biggest fear of the wingnuts/neo-con cabal is the threat of, March/April starting The Iranian Bourse (kind of oil stock exchange) trading through euros instead of the dollar which is on the oil life-support system. Venezuala, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc may be about to break away from the dollar to the more stable euro thus a devastating blow to the US economy.
Saddam also threatened the same just before "Shock and Awe(ful)" and we know what happened to that fcuker.
Throw in trillions of dollars of US debt - literally billions a day:eek:, rediculous tax cuts, a construction markey flattening out, personal and industrial debt along with many other fiscal suicide which Bush the Fool and cronies arevresponsible for and you have a soup of disaster for the States.

[dancinpants]

Throw in trillions of dollars of US debt - literally billions a day:eek:, rediculous tax cuts, a construction markey flattening out, personal and industrial debt along with many other fiscal suicide which Bush the Fool and cronies arevresponsible for and you have a soup of disaster for the States.

Yip it looks bad over here in fairness. As you pointed out about the debt - the debt ceiling was increased by $750 billion dollars, that leaves the debt ceiling to $9 TRILLION dollars!!!! :eek: . It was worked out that to pay off the national debt, every man woman and child in the US would have to pay $30,000 EACH. Then ye have these dumb@ss republicans running around thinking Bush is the dogs ****** for all these tax cuts, when infact he's running the country into the ground FFS.

[hamish]

Yip it looks bad over here in fairness. As you pointed out about the debt - the debt ceiling was increased by $750 billion dollars, that leaves the debt ceiling to $9 TRILLION dollars!!!! :eek: . It was worked out that to pay off the national debt, every man woman and child in the US would have to pay $30,000 EACH. Then ye have these dumb@ss republicans running around thinking Bush is the dogs ****** for all these tax cuts, when infact he's running the country into the ground FFS.

Yep dancinpants, here's another angle to it - remember Saddam threatening to sell oil in Euros? Well Iran have just started The Iranian Burse which is a kinda stock exchange for oil and also through euros.
This has the potential to devastate the dollar which has lost 95% in value in the last 100 years.I think Nixon took it away from the gold standard because it was worth so little and with the debt, as you stated, running into frightening figures, traditional Republicans are terrified that the Bushies will bankrupt the US, given that, at personal and national levels, it's running on massive debt.
Bush also left Texas 9 billion dollars in debt when he left there as Governor.
Whata fcuking genius.:rolleyes:

Anyway, have a look at this. I think it adds to the picture, especially "The end of money bit"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12381.htm

[dcfcsteve]

Yip it looks bad over here in fairness. As you pointed out about the debt - the debt ceiling was increased by $750 billion dollars, that leaves the debt ceiling to $9 TRILLION dollars!!!! :eek: . It was worked out that to pay off the national debt, every man woman and child in the US would have to pay $30,000 EACH. Then ye have these dumb@ss republicans running around thinking Bush is the dogs ****** for all these tax cuts, when infact he's running the country into the ground FFS.

Another increase in US interest rates as well this week - the 14th climb in recent years I believe. Puts the Fed rate above Britain for the frist time in quite a while. Which will mean even more foreign loans piling into the US - giving their economy a short-to-medium term boost, but putting them even thicker in the soup.

The problem with all of this though is that it'll only really come to bite after Bush's 2nd term is over. Hopefully a Democrat will get in then to save the country from itself. But they'll be the ones having to make the tough decisions and getting the public flack for Bush's mistakes. :mad:

[dahamsta]

Another term of Republicans and we'll be seeing the Five-Starred Red Flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_People%27s_Republic_of_China) on whitehouse.gov. The loans have to be repaid somehow...

[hamish]

Here's more on this topic guys.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12537.htm

[hamish]

Retired US General Tony Zinni gives a devastating account on "Meet the Press" today - destroying the claims of imminent threats to the US Regime from Saddam Hussein. He has made this statement from as far back as 2002.
Film clip lasts only a few minutes.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/04/02.html#a7762

[hamish]

http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/condicoffins-741641.jpg

[hamish]

Here's an interview from Pacifica Radio, via The Information Clearing House, of ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern. McGovern worked under JF Kennedy, Reagan, even Nixon, Bush the Elder etc.
He delivers an stinging critique of the present US regime and its cronies. He states quite categorically that he is of the opinion that Bish the Fool, Cheney, Rumsfeld and co are war criminals.
This bloke is no raving lefty BTW.
The opening part is about his career but as the interview develops, we see the layers of scum being removed to witness the obscenity and utter corruption within the current administration and its supporters.
The neo-cons he categorises as "crazies" and he stated that Bush the Elder had the cop-on to keep them as far away as possible from any crucial decision making - Perle, Wolowitz and co. are some among this cabal.

Really worth a listening if you want to get an insight into where the stench from Capitol Hill is coming from and what's causing it.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12628.htm

Anyone who's listened to it, please let me have your thoughts.

[CollegeTillIDie]

hamish

Bloody NTL have just made CNBC only available to their digital customers !
Last time I gave up on Cablelink because they took CNBC Europe off their packages :(

[hamish]

hamish

Bloody NTL have just made CNBC only available to their digital customers !
Last time I gave up on Cablelink because they took CNBC Europe off their packages :(

You've lost me a bit there CTID - has this to do with site loading or what???
I notice that Keith Oberlmann is not featured on the European vesion of MSNBC - he's good.

I love the site "Information Clearing House" and have actually given a few bob towards the cost of it - it often has an article before it's printed in the likes of the Guardian etc. Great videos too - even has Outfoxed.

[hamish]

Iraqi official: 'It's civil war'
5.36PM, Sat Apr 8 2006

ITV News


A senior official in the Iraqi government has for the first time admitted the country is in a state of civil war.

Deputy interior minister Hussein Ali Kamal said Iraq had been in "undeclared" civil war for the past year.

He told reporters: "Actually Iraq has been in an undeclared civil war for the past 12 months.

"On a daily basis Shias, Sunnis, Kurds and Christians are being killed and the only undeclared thing is that a civil war has not been officially announced by the parties involved. Civil war is happening but not on a wide scale."

Mr Kamal's admission mirrors the words of former Iraqi prime minister Iyad Allawi who last month said Iraq was in civil war. Mr Allawi warned that the violence was reaching the point of no return and Europe and the USA would not be spared the consequences.

But British ministers have repeatedly denied civil war is either imminent or inevitable. Criticising anti-war protesters, Defence Secretary John Reid recently suggested those who argued that Iraq was on the brink of civil war were siding with the terrorists

Jerk:mad: That hypocricy just doesn't play anymore - Reid must be some fcuking idiot if he thinks that line will work - it doesn't even in the US now.

"The vested interests - if we explain the situation by their influence - can only get the public to act as they wish by manipulating public opinion, by playing either upon the public's indifference, confusions, prejudices, pugnacities or fears. And the only way in which the power of the interests can be undermined and their maneuvers defeated is by bringing home to the public the danger of its indifference, the absurdity of its prejudices, or the hollowness of its fears; by showing that it is indifferent to danger where real danger exists; frightened by dangers which are nonexistent."
Sir Norman Angell 1872 - 1967

"The ideal setup by the Party was something huge, terrible, and glittering - a world of steel and concrete, of monstrous machines and terrifying weapons - a nation of warriors and fanatics, marching forward in perfect unity, all thinking the same thoughts and shouting the same slogans, perpetually working, fighting, triumphing, persecuting - three hundred million people all with the same face." George Orwell, from the book 1984

Patriotism in its simplest, clearest and most indubitable signification is nothing else but a means of obtaining for the rulers their ambitions and covetous desires, and for the ruled the abdication of human dignity, reason, conscience, and a slavish enthralment to those in power.
Leo Tolstoy


"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." Plato (427-347 B.C.)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Iraqi official: 'It's civil war'
5.36PM, Sat Apr 8 2006

A senior official in the Iraqi government has for the first time admitted the country is in a state of civil war.

Deputy interior minister Hussein Ali Kamal said Iraq had been in "undeclared" civil war for the past year.

He told reporters: "Actually Iraq has been in an undeclared civil war for the past 12 months.

A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet hamish ;)

[rebs23]

Plus a few others in that "in-crowd" PP
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0321219
Mornin' to ya amigo.:)

The biggest fear of the wingnuts/neo-con cabal is the threat of, March/April starting The Iranian Bourse (kind of oil stock exchange) trading through euros instead of the dollar which is on the oil life-support system. Venezuala, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc may be about to break away from the dollar to the more stable euro thus a devastating blow to the US economy.
Saddam also threatened the same just before "Shock and Awe(ful)" and we know what happened to that fcuker.
Throw in trillions of dollars of US debt - literally billions a day:eek:, rediculous tax cuts, a construction markey flattening out, personal and industrial debt along with many other fiscal suicide which Bush the Fool and cronies arevresponsible for and you have a soup of disaster for the States.

It really does look at times that a recession is around the corner not just for the states but all of us. After every expensive war someone has to pay for it and it looks as if we'll be paying for this one.