Milosevic Dead

[dahamsta]

At least he spent a few years in jail, and died there, I guess.

http://news.google.ie/news?q=Slobodan+Milosevic

adam

[pete]

I still think his "trial" was no more than a show trial... Was he ever able to call Blair & Clinton as withnesses?

[Block G Raptor]

Wont Lose any sleep over that B@st@rd

[Pat O' Banton]

Goes to his grave, as did Tudjman without the courts having a chance to pass their judgement upon his actions of inciting and instigating Europe's worst disaster in the latter half of the twentieth century. I firmly hope that many of those who even more directly ordered amd participated in the naked rascism of that conflict do get judgement passed on them.

[Partizan]

Milosevic was never going to get a fair trial in this sham of a so called court. The Hague Inquisition was an attempt by the West who were also complicit in the destruction of Yugoslavia to pin the blame for the tragedy on one man, demonizing a whole people in the process - the Serbs and to cover up their own misdeeds from Croatia to Kosovo.

The current cow-towing by the EU and the US to the KLA drug mafia in Kosovo is stomach turning.

Maybe when Dubya, Blair, Sharon, Clinton and Pinochet are eventually brought to court for their own crimes than I will truly believe in international justice but until then I'm afraid in life as in death, it is the victors who decide.

Ancient Greek saying "The weak do as they must, the strong as they please".

Here an interesting article...

The Milosevic trial is a travesty

Political necessity dictates that the former Yugoslavian leader will be found guilty - even if the evidence doesn't

Neil Clark
Thursday February 12, 2004
The Guardian


It is two years today that the trial of Slobodan Milosevic opened at The Hague. The chief prosecutor, Carla Del Ponte, was triumphant as she announced the 66 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity and genocide that the former Yugoslavian president was charged with. CNN was among those who called it "the most important trial since Nuremburg" as the prosecution outlined the "crimes of medieval savagery" allegedly committed by the "butcher of Belgrade".

But since those heady days, things have gone horribly wrong for Ms Del Ponte. The charges relating to the war in Kosovo were expected to be the strongest part of her case. But not only has the prosecution signally failed to prove Milosevic's personal responsibility for atrocities committed on the ground, the nature and extent of the atrocities themselves has also been called into question.

Numerous prosecution witnesses have been exposed as liars - such as Bilall Avdiu, who claimed to have seen "around half a dozen mutilated bodies" at Racak, scene of the disputed killings that triggered the US-led Kosovo war. Forensic evidence later confirmed that none of the bodies had been mutilated. Insiders who we were told would finally spill the beans on Milosevic turned out to be nothing of the kind. Rade Markovic, the former head of the Yugoslavian secret service, ended up testifying in favour of his old boss, saying that he had been subjected to a year and a half of "pressure and torture" to sign a statement prepared by the court. Ratomir Tanic, another "insider", was shown to have been in the pay of British intelligence.

When it came to the indictments involving the wars in Bosnia and Croatia, the prosecution fared little better. In the case of the worst massacre with which Milosevic has been accused of complicity - of between 2,000 and 4,000 men and boys in Srebrenica in 1995 - Del Ponte's team have produced nothing to challenge the verdict of the five-year inquiry commissioned by the Dutch government - that there was "no proof that orders for the slaughter came from Serb political leaders in Belgrade".

T o bolster the prosecution's flagging case, a succession of high-profile political witnesses has been wheeled into court. The most recent, the US presidential hopeful and former Nato commander Wesley Clark, was allowed, in violation of the principle of an open trial, to give testimony in private, with Washington able to apply for removal of any parts of his evidence from the public record they deemed to be against US interests.

For any impartial observer, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that Del Ponte has been working backwards - making charges and then trying to find evidence. Remarkably, in the light of such breaches of due process, only one western human rights organisation, the British Helsinki Group, has voiced concerns. Richard Dicker, the trial's observer for Human Rights Watch, announced himself "impressed" by the prosecution's case. Cynics might say that as George Soros, Human Rights Watch's benefactor, finances the tribunal, Dicker might not be expected to say anything else.

Judith Armatta, an American lawyer and observer for the Coalition for International Justice (another Soros-funded NGO) goes further, gloating that "when the sentence comes and he disappears into that cell, no one is going to hear from him again. He will have ceased to exist". So much then for those quaint old notions that the aim of a trial is to determine guilt. For Armatta, Dicker and their backers, it seems that Milosevic is already guilty as charged.

Terrible crimes were committed in the Balkans during the 90s and it is right that those responsible are held accountable in a court of law. But the Hague tribunal, a blatantly political body set up and funded by the very Nato powers that waged an illegal war against Milosevic's Yugoslavia four years ago - and that has refused to consider the prima facie evidence that western leaders were guilty of war crimes in that conflict - is clearly not the vehicle to do so.

Far from being a dispenser of impartial justice, as many progressives still believe, the tribunal has demonstrated its bias in favour of the economic and military interests of the planet's most powerful nations. Milosevic is in the dock for getting in the way of those interests and, regardless of what has gone on in court, political necessity dictates that he will be found guilty, if not of all the charges, then enough for him to be incarcerated for life. The affront to justice at The Hague over the past two years provides a sobering lesson for all those who pin so much hope on the newly established international criminal court.

The US has already ensured that it will not be subject to that court's jurisdiction. Members of the UN security council will have the power to impede or suspend its investigations. The goal of an international justice system in which the law would be applied equally to all is a fine one. But in a world in which some states are clearly more equal than others, its realisation looks further away than ever.

[pete]

I'm certainly no apologist for Milosevic but i would prefer to have a permanent war crimes tribunal otherwise all you have is one where the winner of wars setup their own versions.

[hamish]

I'm certainly no apologist for Milosevic but i would prefer to have a permanent war crimes tribunal otherwise all you have is one where the winner of wars setup their own versions.

True Peter, as always, victors' justice but TBH Misosevic was still a nasty c.unt. I think the likes of Rumsfeldt are probably even more guilty.
1. Shaking his friend Saddam's hand when the latter was gassing Kurds with US/UK supplied toxins and when Rumsfeldt knew he was gassing and torturing.
2. Sending US soldiers to Iraq on lies and not even sending enough soldiers and proper armour.
3. Introducing torture into Gitmo and so on with his nudge/nudge, wink/wink instructions.

Fcuk them all.

[Block G Raptor]

Just heard on rte radio1 suspected suicide ! fcuking coward

[CollegeTillIDie]

Milosevic was guilty of three crimes he was never charged with.
1) Bringing about the disintegration of his country's economy.
2) Robbing the savings of the population from the Yugoslav National Bank
3) Turning his country into a Criminal Black Marketeers regime.

While I would certainly agree with some points made by Partizan these are three facts that never get mentioned!...
So Slobo in life and in death Gotov Je!

Tudjman once let slip to a Western journalist the following comment about Milosevic " I'd be nowhere without him!"

[pete]

Seems too easy. The West has been hugely embarished by its failure to act in Bosnia in particular & Milosevics death kinda closes the case too easily.

Bosnia was a huge stain on the reputation of the EU in particular & will probably impact european politics for years to come.

[Roverstillidie]

news filtering out that he wrote to the russians on friday complaining that his medication had been changed and that he was suspicious of why....

[dahamsta]

I'm not decided, but I will say this: That's just the kind of thing I'd expect from a duplicitous scumbag like Slobby Dan, either way.

[Poor Student]

news filtering out that he wrote to the russians on friday complaining that his medication had been changed and that he was suspicious of why....

If I had a euro for every time I've been told a paranoid conspiracy theory by a Serb I'd be quite rich. He was suspicious because it's what he'd do. He's been looking like death for quite sometime now and was known to have a bad heart. He's also not too young and has been under great stress for some time. Many in Serbia seem to think the West killed him.

[dahamsta]

I'm just amazed a helicopter wasn't involved in some way, shape or form. Everyone who's anyone over there (everywhere ending in -ia or -stan) seems to crash in one, or fall out of one, or be eaten by one. Perhaps we could start a "Slobby Dan Choked On Toy Helicopter" website? It just wouldn't be the same without...

(Yes, I realise I'm making jokes at the expesne of someone's life, and strictly speaking it shouldn't be allowed; however sometime exceptions have to be make, like when Paisley dies. Oops, did it again...)

adam

[lopez]

Goes to his grave, as did Tudjman without the courts having a chance to pass their judgement upon his actions of inciting and instigating Europe's worst disaster in the latter half of the twentieth century. I firmly hope that many of those who even more directly ordered amd participated in the naked rascism of that conflict do get judgement passed on them.You've been hanging out with 'Tony Cascarino' lately, haven't you? ;)

[Risteard]

If I had a euro for every time I've been told a paranoid conspiracy theory by a Serb I'd be quite rich.
Serious?
If i'd €1,000,000 for everytime i met a serb or one was pointed out to me i'd spend my days in college on the internet and my Friday nights in Turners Cross eating chips watching the match.:o

[Pat O' Banton]

You've been hanging out with 'Tony Cascarino' lately, haven't you? ;)

Ahh never to be forgotten for the brief contribution, to foot.ie.
I don't think that would be the ideal night out down the local discotech.

[Roverstillidie]

If I had a euro for every time I've been told a paranoid conspiracy theory by a Serb I'd be quite rich. He was suspicious because it's what he'd do. He's been looking like death for quite sometime now and was known to have a bad heart. He's also not too young and has been under great stress for some time. Many in Serbia seem to think the West killed him.

not seeming like as big a conspiracy theory today....
something was in that mans blood that shouldnt have been there!!

[lopez]

Ahh never to be forgotten for the brief contribution, to foot.ie.
I don't think that would be the ideal night out down the local discotech.He was the scarrrrriest guy I've ever cyber-rumbled with.:eek:

Speaking of conspiracy theories, perhaps someone 'accidently' :rolleyes: stuck Ante Govotina - aka The General, aka The Innocent One, aka The bloke who met the Pope...twice!!! - in with Slobodobachops. I know who I'd put my money on to come out of that one in a body bag.

[Thunderblaster]

I hear that Fr Ted Crilly is asked to do Slobba's funeral. RIP. Remains reposing in Mortovic's Funeral Home in Belgrade from 5:30 to 7:00 with remains taken to St Nenad's Church, Belgrade. Funeral Mass at 12:00 with burial afterwards in Tito's Tomb, Belgrade. House Private. Donations can be made to the Serbian Heart Foundation.:D :p :D

[dahamsta]

Lets hope Ted's busy and Dougas has to cover...

[Poor Student]

not seeming like as big a conspiracy theory today....
something was in that mans blood that shouldnt have been there!!

It's possible Gospod Milosevic took something to counteract his heart medicine so he could get that operation in Russia. In effect accidently killing himself.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Ah sure do you now the Irish tradition of Story telling? Sitting around the fire with the jug of punch telling the ancient myths and legends?
In Serbia they swap conspiracy theories :D

[Roverstillidie]

It's possible Gospod Milosevic took something to counteract his heart medicine so he could get that operation in Russia. In effect accidently killing himself.

possibly, but how did he get the pills?

reality is once there is even a slight glimmer of doubt about his death, which there is in abundance, he will be a martyr.

[Pat O' Banton]

Milosevic was never going to get a fair trial in this sham of a so called court. The Hague Inquisition was an attempt by the West who were also complicit in the destruction of Yugoslavia to pin the blame for the tragedy on one man, demonizing a whole people in the process - the Serbs and to cover up their own misdeeds from Croatia to Kosovo.



Much as I regularly find the west's positioning on virtually everything abhorant, I'm afraid that it was Milosevic who more then anyone was responsible for the break up of Yugoslavia for his own political ends. He used fears of the Kosovo Serbs, stoking up war like sentiments in the province. He used this and subsquent manouvrs to move himself to a position of power and used this eventually to remove Stambolic, the man who gave him his start in Yugoslav politics.

When he realised that Yugoslavia was becoming more and more difficult to hold together he decided that provoking dissolution af the federation rather than holding it together was the best way to hold on to and strenghten power in the area. Indeed Tudjman's rise in popularlity in Croatia can be directly attributable to the rise in Serb nationalism that Milosevic stoked up. Now allowing the provinces to go their own seperate way may seem a noble gesture on Milosevic's behalf but as he wanted to keep as many Serb's as possible in a greater Serbia he must have surely known that this could only be done by taking vast tracks of territory from Croatia and Bosnia, something that would lead to armed conflict.

Further the west were simply not really interested in Yugoslavia at the time, the US were more concerned about Iraq and as such left Europe to deal with the situation. Europe's attitude and response was hardly one of malovelence, rather one of incompetent incomperhension of the hatreds that had driven Yugoslavia to the point of no return.

Also it was Milosevic who agreed with Tudjman to partition Bosnia between Croatia and Yugoslavia not the west.

There were many factors that lead to the break up of Yugoslavia but they were largely based around politicans making their own pwer bases out of centuries of ethnis tension, something that the west did not create.

[Partizan]

If anyone really wants to have a good insight as to what happened in the former YU, I recommend the Serbian movie, 'Pretty Village, Pretty Flame'
made circa 1997 and subsequently banned in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. Absolutley panned by critics in the West for being 'pro Serb' and refused a cinema showing. Shame really, its up there with Apocalypse Now, MASH and Full Metal Jacket.

[CollegeTillIDie]

If anyone really wants to have a good insight as to what happened in the former YU, I recommend the Serbian movie, 'Pretty Village, Pretty Flame'
made circa 1997 and subsequently banned in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. Absolutley panned by critics in the West for being 'pro Serb' and refused a cinema showing. Shame really, its up there with Apocalypse Now, MASH and Full Metal Jacket.

It's a classic alright !:) TG4 showed it a couple of years ago.

[Partizan]

Is there a video shop where I can purchase a copy or do I have to go via online to Amazon?

Deffo RTE should show this on a Wednesday night in light of the recent events in The Hague, but then again not and instead we'll get usual Hollywood pap that is frequently served up.

[Poor Student]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000ARFNPA/o/qid=1142619392/sr=2-1/ref=sr_bt_1/203-6089825-6136760

It only costs 9 Euro Partizan.

A rudimentary understanding of Serbian enhances the experience of Serbian films due to the plethora of profanities.:)

[pete]

Channel 4 had documentary on the whole collapse of Yugoslavia, Death of Yugoslavia i think it was called... Excellent

[Partizan]

I think this article perfectly sums up Slobo & his agenda.

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=702

[lopez]

I think this article perfectly sums up Slobo & his agenda.

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=702Very good article and factually correct IMO about Milosevic's view of the new 'Yugoslavia' (basically greater Serbia).

It is hard not to have sympathy with the Serbs within Croatia and Bosnia at the time of secession, although to do so one must also have sympathy with Ireland's own British citizens on the eve of partition. The question is, is it right that in parishes/districts etc. largely populated by people loyal to the state and physically bordering that state, that these people should not have the right to opt out of leaving? Also, Serbs were right, given the previous attempt at a Croatian state, to be worried.

It is clear that the legality of the FYR constitution - as is the case in any federal state - was framed in such a way as to never foresee the said state's break up. If it were, then the separation would have taken into account the nations within those breakaway states. An example of this was the 'gift' of the Crimean Peninsula to Ukraine by I think Khrushchev in the 50s. The Crimea is almost exclusively Russian and the placing of the Crimea within the Ukraine SSR was never a problem while the Ukraine was part of the Russian dominated USSR (nor of course that any demonstrations would have been tolerated). It has become a matter of grievance since the dissolution of the Soviet Union but thankfully not on the scale of Yugoslavia or Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan.

The same was the case within the FRY. Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia - particularly those that lived in border districts - no doubt never felt Croatian or Bosnian but were happy to live within the state that was a part of a federal structure. No attempt was ever made to redraw the lines as it was in no-one's interest. It's a shame that when the constitution was drawn up that the homogeneity of states was addressed. But then, as with the six counties, you would have had 'unfeasible' administrations.

[Mad Moose]

If anyone really wants to have a good insight as to what happened in the former YU, I recommend the Serbian movie, 'Pretty Village, Pretty Flame'
made circa 1997 and subsequently banned in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia. Absolutley panned by critics in the West for being 'pro Serb' and refused a cinema showing. Shame really, its up there with Apocalypse Now, MASH and Full Metal Jacket.

Or to read Richard Kaplans 'Balkan Ghosts' which Bill Clinton according to the foreword was supposed to have read and it influenced his late intervention in Bosnia in 1994. Its a while since I read it but an excellent read. Sarajevo for me still haunts, an eeriness in a beautiful place is pretty strange.The pain and suffering still so obvious. Time may be a healer but I suppose you will never forget.

Brendan

[Closed Account 2]

Robert Kaplan ?