Child sex scandal in Dublin

[liam88]

As some of you may know today a report was published on child abuse by Catholic priests in Dublin. As a devout Catholic i thought i'd bring this up before anybody else did. Now the first thing to remember is that given allt he Pirests in Dublin this is a tiny minority-and is in no representative of all clergy. We're talking 2 abusive priests in Dublin every year. Having said that this is 2 a year to many. As Pope John Paul the Great said there is no place in the church for those who wish to harm children.

The church should hold a open equiry let poeple see what goes on-no cover ups, no cover up claims. It should be fully investigated and those who are found guilty of hurting children in anyway should be brought to justice. It's not the church-it;s certain people in the church, hurting anyone let alone a child is against the teachings of the Pope, the Bible and the bliefs of the Roman Catholic faith. These people are a disgrace-they have attacked the Catholic church by harming reputation. The way to restore the trust (that some people have lost) in the Church is for the church to let the Gardai/government do their job, help the people these "priests" hurt and re-iterate that the Catholic church never has a never will codone hurting anybody.

[Peadar]

Burn them at the stake!
The church has systematically abused this state for years.

[Poor Student]

Liam as a fellow Catholic I may as well pick the openings you've left in your post. You say the church has never condoned hurting anyone but that's not true. You only need to look at the Crusades. The church in Ireland has had plenty of opportunity over the last near century to let the relevant authorities deal with clerical abuse but instead chose to cover up. They now have little or no choice anyway. I'm not sure what report you're referring to exactly. I do respect the current Archbishop of the Dublin diocese a lot more than the previous one and do hope that he will handle any such cases in a proper manner.

[liam88]

The church has systematically abused this state for years.

I don't agree with you.
Look at all the benifits the Catholic church has brought to Ireland.

Anyway it's not a debate about religious vs secular state-simply a Catholic higlighting that the church is totalyl against this behaviour and the people's actions are representative of no one but themselves; before someone makes a post using the report as justification for the destruction of Catholicism in Ireland.

[Plastic Paddy]

I don't agree with you.
Look at all the benifits the Catholic church has brought to Ireland.

Come on then Liam old son, enlighten us as to the nature of those "benefits". You can't make such a sweeping statement without attempting to qualify it...


Anyway it's not a debate about religious vs secular state-simply a Catholic higlighting that the church is totalyl against this behaviour and the people's actions are representative of no one but themselves; before someone makes a post using the report as justification for the destruction of Catholicism in Ireland.

Liam, the Church doesn't need your PR as much as it needs an internal communications strategy and action plan to spread this message amongst the frontline practitioners, i.e. the priests themselves. Despite your obviously good intentions I'm afraid your words smack rather of shutting the stable door long after the horse has fecked off. Suggest you take the above posts to hol.ie instead. ;)

:ball: PP

[dahamsta]

While I don't doubt that the catholic church finds this kind of behaviour unacceptable, possibly even disgusting like the rest of us, there's zero doubt in my mind that the church, at every level, has waged an organised campign to hide and obfuscate this behaviour up until very, very recently. Which is equally disgusting, and deserves punishment that still isn't being doled out. The people responsible should be ashamed of themselves, and more importantly should be in jail. I think the amount of people involved would amount to a significant percentage; and I can see the cries of "I was just following orders yer honour" already.

And of course the problem with letting the Gardaí and Government do their job is that the church has explicitly gone out of it's way to prevent the Gardaí and Government from doing their job, by shifting priests out of the relevant juristiction, hiding and destroying evidence, etc. Sauce for the goose...

adam

[Bald Student]

While I don't doubt that the catholic church finds this kind of behaviour unacceptable, possibly even disgusting like the rest of us, there's zero doubt in my mind that the church, at every level, has waged an organised campign to hide and obfuscate this behaviour up until very, very recently. Which is equally disgusting, and deserves punishment that still isn't being doled out. The people responsible should be ashamed of themselves, and more importantly should be in jail. I think the amount of people involved would amount to a significant percentage; and I can see the cries of "I was just following orders yer honour" already.

And of course the problem with letting the Gardaí and Government do their job is that the church has explicitly gone out of it's way to prevent the Gardaí and Government from doing their job, by shifting priests out of the relevant juristiction, hiding and destroying evidence, etc. Sauce for the goose...

adamI agree with wat you say there except I think you made a generalisation with your 'every level' comment. I know plenty of clergy who are as disgusted as you or I.

I think the problem runs deeper in our society than just in the church though. Up untill recently it was rare for any paedophile to be brought to justice, or even public attention. The silence on the issue from everyone involved, including the church, the schools, the guards and the hospitals was such that a lot of people didn't even know what paedophelia was up untill about 20 years ago.

The root of the problem was in the medical profession in my opinion. The experts tought that paedophelia was an odd illness that could be cured with therapy. They also tought that the child would grow up without any harm done to them. They were wrong on both counts and that's the root of what let the problem fester for as long as it did.

[Block G Raptor]

I renounced my faith in the Catholic Church years ago because of revelations like this.I Agree that it is a minority of evil B@STARDS! that have caused the real hurt.but it is cover-ups at the highest level in the church in this country
and for all we know at the highest level in the Vatican that turned me off the church for life.

[Poor Student]

The bitter irony is, you can see why the church covered it up. The church obviously adopted a holier than thou moral approach and also feared the damage of its reputation and trust with its followers being shaken. Now however, the effect has been double due to its deception. To make matters worse Cardinal O'Connell was not a man equipped to lead the church here during the times that these revelations came to the fore. Archbishop Desmond is a lot more of a humane, compassionate and down to earth person by comparison. No doubt the church is utterly shaken here and you only need to take a quick look around for the empty seats on a Sunday at mass compared to a decade ago. People have lost their trust and faith and you can hardly blame them. I hope church, state and the people can draw a line under all that has happened and has learned some sore lessons that will prevent a repeat of such atrocities. While the church bears the brunt of the blame, the state and its insitutions and even the general Irish public were complicit in one way or another to covering things up. Bald Student does have a point, there was a certain degree of ignorance too, but surely anyone knew it was wrong from both a moral religious stand point and a common sense one.

[Block G Raptor]

. I hope church, state and the people can draw a line under all that has happened and has learned some sore lessons that will prevent a repeat of such atrocities.
Too little too late IMO:mad:

[dahamsta]

I think you made a generalisation with your 'every level' comment. I know plenty of clergy who are as disgusted as you or I.Saying there was a cover-up at every level is not the same as saying that every priest, bishop, etc, was involved. "At every level" is a pretty common phrase, I'm surprised you'd jump to that conclusion.


I think the problem runs deeper in our society than just in the church though.Sure it does. However the catholic church was at the heart of it, just like they were at the heart of everything until my generation. (Or possibly even my son's generation, since my mother suffered the ignorance of the catholic church when she was married, and when she had me; because she, a protestant, had the GALL to want to marry a catholic).


The experts tought that paedophelia was an odd illness that could be cured with therapy. They also tought that the child would grow up without any harm done to them.I can honestly say that that's the first time I've heard that assertion. And, assuming it was a response to my post, it has zero bearing on the primary point I made: The church covered it up. Everything else is moot: they covered it up, and they knew damned well they were doing it.

It's like they were trying to demonstrate the opposite of christianity by playing opposites. They certainly demonstrated evil, and how to inflict pain; how to hurt people. Somebody should check their foreheads for the mark of the beast.

Sorry, but organised religion is not for me. From here all I see is secretive organisations that generally sit on pots of cash and hurt people. I think I'm probably better off on my tod.

adam

[Macy]

I know plenty of clergy who are as disgusted as you or I.
Where were they speaking out when all the abuse was going on? Not every priest knew it was going on, but there must have been a lot who had an inclining and could've gone public.

On the issue in general, I have no respect for the way the Catholic Church is handling this issue. The constant drip of information out of the Dublin enquiry just shows they are still more concerned with PR than with dealing with the issues. Every week there's some kind of leak, this can only be being done to break the story down into smaller parts, to negate the impact of the full report if/when published.

The Catholic Church also refuses to report all allegations to the civil authorities mean that there is every chance abuse is still going on and still being covered up by them. They refuse to implement stuff recommended in their own reports.

[Block G Raptor]

Sorry, but organised religion is not for me. From here all I see is secretive organisations that generally sit on pots of cash and hurt people. I think I'm probably better off on my tod.

adam

My Sentiments exactly. The CC is one of the Richest Organisations in the world(FACT)and one of the most Corrupt(IMO)

[Lim till i die]

The root of the problem was in the medical profession in my opinion. The experts tought that paedophelia was an odd illness that could be cured with therapy. They also tought that the child would grow up without any harm done to them. They were wrong on both counts and that's the root of what let the problem fester for as long as it did.

Of course, its the doctors fault. :rolleyes: Thats a ridiculous leap to make in all fairness.

As for the culture of silence inherrent in Irish society could that not have been in no small part due to the churches stranglehold on life in the country??? It's only now when peopl have been liberated from theocracy and dogmatism that the actions of that evil, corrupt "church" are coming to light

[jebus]

As a Christian, I'm glad to see that half-assed depiction of my faith failing miserably. What with the cover-ups in child sex cases, their reluctance to step into the late twentieth century, let alone the twenty-first century (how can they still say contraception is wrong??), and their continued dislike for homosexuals, and other minorities (what ever happened to Jesus's teaching of love everyone regardless??) I'm surprised its taking this long for that shame of a church to fall flat on it's face. I've read the New Testament, and all I ever hear from the Catholic Church is a twisted, profit grabbing version of what Jesus was actually trying to teach.

[Lim till i die]

I've read the New Testament, and all I ever hear from the Catholic Church is a twisted, profit grabbing version of what Jesus was actually trying to teach.

The Old Testament is far more entertaining man :p

Now their was a God who knew how to get things done :D

[jebus]

The Old Testament is far more entertaining man :p

Now their was a God who knew how to get things done :D

Yeah but one of us has to pray to the more compasionate one for some decent results against Cobh this year

[Lim till i die]

Yeah but one of us has to pray to the more compasionate one for some decent results against Cobh this year

Well, I've been praying to the vengeful guy to smite them so either way we're looking good :p

[Hither green]

As some of you may know today a report was published on child abuse by Catholic priests in Dublin. As a devout Catholic i thought i'd bring this up before anybody else did. Now the first thing to remember is that given allt he Pirests in Dublin this is a tiny minority-and is in no representative of all clergy. We're talking 2 abusive priests in Dublin every year. Having said that this is 2 a year to many. As Pope John Paul the Great said there is no place in the church for those who wish to harm children.

I agree with you there. 100 odd priests in 66 years, that’s 1 and a bit a year - obviously 1 and a bit too many but it’s probably a similar number to what you’d find in teaching or medicine or social services or whatever. It’s the church’s inability to respond to the problem, and respond openly, that's the big issue. You can unfortunately see why the Church covered it up, because it would do so much harm, and also why individual priests didn’t speak out, because they’d be harming the Church - what was needed was direction from the top and unfortunately the Vatican has been completely unwilling to deal with the issue. In fairness though hasn’t the new Pope recently been trying to change that (despite years of being unwilling to)? I guess all this isn't surprising, afterall it’s only been recently that our own governments have been willing to be more responsive and open (washing their dirty linen in public), as always it’ll take the church a while to embrace such change.

[Dodge]

it’s probably a similar number to what you’d find in teaching or medicine or social services or whatever.
I'm sorry but you're going to have to back up that statement. Wouldn't mind a reference for only 100 priests either.

[finlma]

I agree with you there. 100 odd priests in 66 years, that’s 1 and a bit a year - obviously 1 and a bit too many but it’s probably a similar number to what you’d find in teaching or medicine or social services or whatever.

Bullsh1t. If you did a per head calculation of people in these professions compared to priests - I guarantee you that the proportion of kiddy-fiddlers in the priesthood is way higher than any other.
The priesthood is a haven for the sexually repressed or those hiding their genuine sexuality. You can throw out any amount of excuses but there's escaping the fact that the Catholic Church hid and protected known child abusers and that is nothing short of a disgrace and I for one disown myself from any association that do that.

[Hither green]

I'm sorry but you're going to have to back up that statement. Wouldn't mind a reference for only 100 priests either.

The reference to 100 priests comes out of yesterday’s story, which is what we’re discussing isn’t it? The press reports said since 1940 there have been 350 cases involving 100 odd priests. In terms of whether other vocations have similar numbers, we’ll never know as the figures aren’t out there. You obviously think not but in terms of stories that come up in the news I wouldn’t be shocked at there being one teacher emerging per year.


You can throw out any amount of excuses but there's escaping the fact that the Catholic Church hid and protected known child abusers and that is nothing short of a disgrace and I for one disown myself from any association that do that.

I’m not throwing out any excuses, the church’s actions in covering up the abuse have been an absolutely disgraceful. They’ve destroyed many people’s trust in the church and may never recover that. They do, however, remain a powerful institution throughout the world, with a hold in several countries similar to what they had in Ireland - what's important now is that they stop covering up these scandals and start dealing with those priests and start communicating with the various criminal justice systems.

[pete]

I won't comment on how flawed the 100 priests quote is as need to backup with link as i have no proof.

I am certain we do not need a tribunal for priestly sex abuse. The actsare criminal and as far as i know htere is no stautory limitation. Clearly we have seen some priests jailed for their offences but up to now i do not believe there have been any prosecutions taken for the cover ups? IMO covering up sexual abuse is as much a crime as basically encourages it. It is alsoo excuse to blame the it on "thats the way things done".

I also disagree with the "deal" the government did with the Catholic Church where i think the church gave up some property to the state in exchange for protection from having to give compensation - this was ashocking agreement as leaves the state open to unknown financial costs.

[Hither green]

I won't comment on how flawed the 100 priests quote is as need to backup with link as i have no proof.

That's what the report said, well according to the BBC

"The Catholic Church has been hit by abuse scandals worldwide. More than 100 Catholic priests in the Dublin region of Ireland are suspected of having abused children in the last 66 years, according to a new report."

It was a report by the diocese anyway, so I'd be surprised if the figures weren't flawed.

[Dr.Nightdub]

I think the problem runs deeper in our society than just in the church though. Up untill recently it was rare for any paedophile to be brought to justice, or even public attention. The silence on the issue from everyone involved, including the church, the schools, the guards and the hospitals was such that a lot of people didn't even know what paedophelia was up untill about 20 years ago.

1. And just who ran the schools and hospitals (and still do in many cases)?

2. Don't go dragging other institutions into it, it sounds like (though I hope it's not the case) trying to dilute the responsibility that lies with the perpetrators. Silence from others wouldn't have been an issue if the priests hadn't been abusing kids in the first place.

[Bald Student]

it sounds like (though I hope it's not the case) trying to dilute the responsibility that lies with the perpetrators.Not at all, the point I was making was that the blame for the act lies with the perpetrator but the blame for covering it up spreads very far. There were an awful lot of children abused, some people claim that it was as many as one in four, so an awful lot of people both inside and outside the church must have known what was going on. Yet there was nothing known publically about this untill recently.

[pete]

100 priests in just Dublin alone even over 66 years is a lot as how many priest would have been that area in the time. Its realistic that only abuse in last 30-40 years is being reported anyway & no very likely an amount is not being dragged back up by the abused.

[Macy]

And how long did the Church let those 100 priests get away with it? How many convictions, how many ex-communicated. 100 priests in 200 parishes over 66 years!

I see as part of the on going softening up PR campaign, the Priests organisation is now saying they're being hard done by and want people accused to still have access to children. It beggars belief it really does. They were on Newstalk last night, and there's a link here (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/0309/3961174392HM1PRIESTS.html)

[Dodge]

Most newstalk shows can be downloaded too.

[new blue]

where were all the current 'holier than thou' critics when the religious were doing the jobs no one else wanted
what a twisted mentality to turn on those who did sterling work and mostly unpaid because of the sins(horrible-yes) of a few

[dahamsta]

So you're saying it was ok for the church to cover up new blue?

[pete]

So you're saying it was ok for the church to cover up new blue?

I think he is suggesting that some crimes can be balanced against all the good from the past...

Incidently no one forced the church to partake in education or health care. I;m sure they had many reasons for doing it anyway plus some secondary church schools are private fee paying. Same could be said of church rule hospitals. Don't forget the public & church members paid for most of those facilities.

Instead of meaningless tribunals & enquires we need some find of legal purges where criminal abusers are pursued & prosecuted so can have clean slate affect.

[Macy]

where were all the current 'holier than thou' critics when the religious were doing the jobs no one else wanted
what a twisted mentality to turn on those who did sterling work and mostly unpaid because of the sins(horrible-yes) of a few
Yeah, hats off to them for brainwashing generations with their doctrine, as well as abusing them. It wasn't for purely altruistic reasons they did this work. It was as much about power and control.

If it was for any other reason, they'd have no problem insisting that the 95% of church controlled national schools are passed over to the state to control.

[Hither green]

Yeah, hats off to them for brainwashing generations with their doctrine, as well as abusing them. It wasn't for purely altruistic reasons they did this work. It was as much about power and control.

If it was for any other reason, they'd have no problem insisting that the 95% of church controlled national schools are passed over to the state to control.

You may disagree and dislike the church but that’s laughably absurd but I suspect that it says more about your motives in life than anything else. You’ve clearly never benefited from someone else’s altruism.


Incidently no one forced the church to partake in education or health care. I;m sure they had many reasons for doing it anyway plus some secondary church schools are private fee paying. Same could be said of church rule hospitals. Don't forget the public & church members paid for most of those facilities.

“Church to partake in education or health care”, I think they did a tad more than that – establishing education and health care for example, in Ireland and throughout Europe. And obviously they did it for the cash, clearly medieval church leaders were just entrepreneurs out to make a quick buck.

[Macy]

You may disagree and dislike the church but that’s laughably absurd but I suspect that it says more about your motives in life than anything else. You’ve clearly never benefited from someone else’s altruism.
All state supported schools should be secular/non demoninational. The state should not be forcing people to have to endure catholic doctrine in state schools. I don't see what that really says about my lifes motives, bar the fact I don't agree with a particular religion (any religion) being forced on people.

If the church truely did it purely for educational purposes, now the country's in a position to provide education for the population itself, and indeed totally funds it, they'd have no problems handing over control to the state of those schools. If people want their children to have catholic education, do it in their own time. Ditto confirmation classes, communion classes etc. The church should have no problem with this, if they truly only care about educating children. What would be your objections to this way forward, in the multicultural society we are now?

[Block G Raptor]

clearly medieval church leaders were just entrepreneurs out to make a quick buck.

Yeah sure couldn't members of the medieval Church BUY a place in heaven? Theres a word for it but can't remember it


If anyones interested I've a bucket of steam and a chocolate fireGuard for sale:rolleyes:

[Hither green]

If the church truely did it purely for educational purposes, now the country's in a position to provide education for the population itself, and indeed totally funds it, they'd have no problems handing over control to the state of those schools.

I have to admit to being not entirely up to speed on the position in Ireland but I’d be surprised if the Church didn’t make some financial contribution to the running of schools. Over here I believe they contribute £20 odd million to the running of their schools.


If people want their children to have catholic education, do it in their own time.

Well I guess that’s down to personal choice, many see education as having a much broader role, which includes instilling social responsibility and morals, which is where religion/spirituality comes in. Perhaps the problem is that there’s less choice over schools in Ireland. Over here you’ve got an enormous range of schools, if you don’t want your children to receive a religious education then you should send them elsewhere. People are queuing up to try to get their children into Catholic and CofE schools in preference to non-denominational or secular ones. Personally I know that I’d rather that any child of mine go to a faith school (of whatever faith) than a secular one.


Yeah sure couldn't members of the medieval Church BUY a place in heaven? Theres a word for it but can't remember it


Indulgences!

And nobody claims the chuch hasn’t suffered from corruption, like every other man made institution - over the last 2000 years it’s had more than its fair share, but that’s not the same as suggesting that their actions were driven by financial gain. Certainly the church in the past wasn’t that well organised.

[Macy]

The church makes no contribution, and if it does it's purely from money collected from parishioners. That includes land that was donated to the church by benefactors - I'd be surprised if they've ever brought a piece of land themselves. Sold a lot, but not brought much. Many Catholic schools in the UK are fee paying as well.

95% of national schools in the state are Church controlled. Any financial contribution is minimal, if anything. In the UK it is the opposite, with the vast majority of state schools non denominational, with the minority RC or Anglican.

You don't have to partake in organised religion to have social responsibility or morals. I think the topic of this thread illustrates that the Catholic Church is in no position to teach anyone in this regard. And non-denominational schools doesn't mean that religious education isn’t taught - just means that it isn’t the teachings of one specific religion.

[Block G Raptor]

Indulgences!



Thats the one..Junior Cert History was a lonnnnnnng Time ago!

[Hither green]

The church makes no contribution, and if it does it's purely from money collected from parishioners. That includes land that was donated to the church by benefactors - I'd be surprised if they've ever brought a piece of land themselves. Sold a lot, but not brought much. Many Catholic schools in the UK are fee paying as well.

Arguably all church money is from parishoners, originally anyway, it's still their money though to dispence with in whatever direction they will.


I think the topic of this thread illustrates that the Catholic Church is in no position to teach anyone in this regard.

I think that’s harsh. Whatever the hierarchy may have advocated the Church still does commendable acts and most of the ground level workers have quite a lot to offer. I've very good memories of many of my own teachers. My issue is that you can't tar them all with the same brush.


You don't have to partake in organised religion to have social responsibility or morals... And non-denominational schools doesn't mean that religious education isn’t taught - just means that it isn’t the teachings of one specific religion.

I've less of an issue with non-denominational schools than I have with secular ones – those dodgy ones you hear about over here that try to avoid religion altogether - I have severe doubts about their ability to sufficiently teach morals or indeed to contribute positively to society at all.

[new blue]

Great to see such a constructive discussion on the role of the church
I am a lay person but in my work I visit many community initiatives
I find church people in the thick of the action- with the elderly, sick, youth at risk, people with disabilities, disadvantaged communities
i have no time for criminals and especially child abusers but it's about 3% perpetrated by clergy - most happens in the home
perhaps they're an easy target for people with ulterior motives many of whom have never done anything for anyone on a voluntary basis and wouldn't even understand the concept
they must be perfect as well "let him who is without sin..."

[Dr.Nightdub]

New Blue, the criticism is cos of their rank hypocrisy. "Suffer little children to come unto me" does not mean making little children suffer.

[hamish]

Great to see such a constructive discussion on the role of the church
I am a lay person but in my work I visit many community initiatives
I find church people in the thick of the action- with the elderly, sick, youth at risk, people with disabilities, disadvantaged communities
i have no time for criminals and especially child abusers but it's about 3% perpetrated by clergy - most happens in the home
perhaps they're an easy target for people with ulterior motives many of whom have never done anything for anyone on a voluntary basis and wouldn't even understand the concept
they must be perfect as well "let him who is without sin..."

I'd agree with you there about the good priests/vicars/nuns etc etc who do such fantastic work as I experienced when my mum was dying this month three years ago. Priest was pleasant, down-to-earth, no BS about him and gave great solace to mum in her final years with regular visits which he did for so many.
People who give of their time too to meals and wheels, sports clubs, community games and the many who work for free in so many active organisations trying to ease the pain of drug addicts, the homeless are real heroes to me. The work is hard, daily often, and fcuk all notice.
The problem I DO have is with the current pope, before he was elected, threatening excommunication to the US bishops if they disclosed data to the legal/police authorities during their scandals. He's an intelligent man and you don't need to be a genius to know that was wrong, in the church;s vocabulary - sinful.
Ditto the soft pedalling in Ireland and the current mess with regard to the Churches assets. I do feel, though, that the state has a responsibility as the latter were quite happy to dump education on Ireland's kids to the clergy for many years and didn't investigate the abuse claims either until the story emerged via the media - remember RTE showing all those old State files dumped in a back office?
I also know that most priests are horrified at the abuse - especially those who were not around when it happened.
Finally, I remember a priest who used to occasionally visit my school when I was a teacher and I never liked the guy to put it mildly - he was cold, arrogant, personality-free and TBH quite unpleasant. I discovered that he was abusing kids in a nearby village school (one of our feeder schools) and ended up in the clink.
After the horror of his acts, here's the next worst bit.
Many of that priest's lay neighbours continued to visit him in prison.
An act of incredible compassion and forgiveness on their part? Maybe. From what I learned, it was more a supportive one in that they thought him innocent. The people who visited BTW - didn't have their kids violated.:mad:
I'm just sorry now that I didn't know about all this when he visited our Community School 'cos, as someone who dealt with kids in remedial class, I was often the first port of call when kids were being treated badly at home (not all sexual, beatings, emotional neglect etc) and not one of the kids mentioned the c.unts name - they were afraid they'd be brutalised by their parents if they said anything, be shunned by their neighbours or any news leaked out to the community. I found all this out afterwards from a past student who had been a regular of mine in remedial class and is now a Garda and a damn good Garda too..
The kids would tell you if they were fed badly, badly treated and eventually let it slip if there was more serious matters as above occurring. This was one secret - the priest abuse - that was a step too far.
Not blowing my own trumpet, but when any students got pregnant, the parents and daughter (usually) came to me for help (Cura etc) but this ONE THING remained a dark secret.

New Blue, that's why I feel so sorry for the good priests and the good nuns who are tarnished by the minority of evil b@stards.

[Block G Raptor]

[quote]People who give of their time too to meals and wheels, sports clubs, community games and the many who work for free in so many active organisations trying to ease the pain of drug addicts, the homeless are real heroes to me. The work is hard, daily often, and fcuk all notice.[\quote]
I agree hamish but I think in this country most of this work is unfortunetly carried out by the church and a lot of this work is preceded by catholic diatripe/dogma. I give my time to both a local youth club and hartstown utd. under 7's. whilst the church has no direct influence in either organisation the youth club has to be affiliated with the CYC in order to be legal and be insured and th efootball club has to seek permission every year to use (although this is a formality) from the local PP for the use of the parish Pitch. allthough these are fairly trivial matters it still demonstrates the monopoly the church has on all Good deeds within the comunity !!

[hamish]

[quote]People who give of their time too to meals and wheels, sports clubs, community games and the many who work for free in so many active organisations trying to ease the pain of drug addicts, the homeless are real heroes to me. The work is hard, daily often, and fcuk all notice.[\quote]
I agree hamish but I think in this country most of this work is unfortunetly carried out by the church and a lot of this work is preceded by catholic diatripe/dogma. I give my time to both a local youth club and hartstown utd. under 7's. whilst the church has no direct influence in either organisation the youth club has to be affiliated with the CYC in order to be legal and be insured and th efootball club has to seek permission every year to use (although this is a formality) from the local PP for the use of the parish Pitch. allthough these are fairly trivial matters it still demonstrates the monopoly the church has on all Good deeds within the comunity !!

That's true BGR and fair play to you and every success with your great efforst on behalf of Hartsown. It's bloody hard work keeping things going at any level of a sports club.
However, while I agree with you regarding church monopoly etc, I was only focusing on one area in my above post - yeah, there are many other aspects that are annoying about churches and their control of grounds, finance etc. Many within churches TBF are supportive but some are bloody awkward to deal with from my experience. Whether they're a minority I honestly don't know, to tell the truth but I see where you're coming from.