Irish rugby

[Dassa]

As someone from NI. Whos really mostly in to football Ive never really taken to rugby in the same way as football. But lately Ive began liking it again for first time since school days. Ive a question however for fans from ROI about the matches. I was wondering what your opinion was on the anthem and flag situation for matches. i personally dont think its right that only the flag and anthem of one country of the 2 (NI and ROI)is displayed and played. Personally i think the way forward would be to have a white flag with a shamrock officially flown and only Irelands call played. Interested to hear what people down south feel about the potential for something like this to happen in future. Would personally be a very good step in right direction and make matches for people like myself feel like they are representing me.

PS if you wondering why Im asking this is that Im headin to Dublin on Saturday.:)

[Dodge]

Personally hate Irelands Call. Would probably be against removing the tricolour but can see where you're coming from

[Macy]

There's better non-contentious traditional songs that could be used instead of Irelands Call. The thing with the national anthem is that games played in Belfast have GSTQ and Irelands Call. Just rare that full internationals are played up there, but I'd expect that to changed somewhat if/when the new Maze stadium is built for the weaker autumn internationals at least.

[finlma]

It is an unusual situation to have 2 countries playing as 1 in a competition and I can see the problem with playing the Irish anthem. I'm not a huge fan of Ireland's Call but I'd prefer to see only this played at internationals.

I'd also be in favour of flying some sort of Irish flag as you've suggested. You'd also have to fly the tri-colour as the game is in the republic.

I'll be there on Saturday too.

[joeSoap]

The IRFU requested Irelands call to be written in 1995 as a direct result of pressure put on it by two protestant Ulster players, Denis McBride, and Davy Tweed who refused to acknowledge Amhran na bhFiann and refused to stand for it, let alone sing it during internationals. For many seasons afterwards it was the only 'anthem' played at internationals.

I have my own opinions on those individuals, and that particular song, but they're best kept away from a public forum.

[Dassa]

There's better non-contentious traditional songs that could be used instead of Irelands Call. The thing with the national anthem is that games played in Belfast have GSTQ and Irelands Call. Just rare that full internationals are played up there, but I'd expect that to changed somewhat if/when the new Maze stadium is built for the weaker autumn internationals at least.

What other songs would you be thinking about. As for the idea of GSTQ being played when games up north. I personally think that if we get or new stadium. it would be then that IRFU decide to only play Irelands call. Why wait to then. Both anthems are contentous for many people on both sides. And as for the tri-colour being flown why not fly it and say the NI flag side by side or a completetely neutral flag. Cheers for responses some interesting points.

[Dodge]

Didn't we play under the tricolour and the flag of ulster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster) at the last world cup?

Fairly certain we did, at least when teams were lining up

[Macy]

It should be noted that at away games only Irelands Call is used as the anthem. Only home games have a National Anthem played.

[Dassa]

the flag of ulster represents a province, not a country. if we go down the route of provinces flags then have all four and no national flags. Have to say welcome the away matches now the way it works. Also I know some dont like Irelands call, but there arent many places in the world with the situation we find ourselves in so I suppose something is better than nothing.

[Macy]

What other songs would you be thinking about.
Danny Boy would be one. I'm sure there are examples of other traditional songs that aren't Republican/Unionist in origin that would be better than Irelands fookin Call.

[Dodge]

the flag of ulster represents a province, not a country. if we go down the route of provinces flags then have all four and no national flags.
I wasn't suggesting it for a solution, I was pointing out it had been used that way

[Dassa]

I wasn't suggesting it for a solution, I was pointing out it had been used that way

I know mate. I actually saw they were using that at the home games against wales.
Anyone know what way the other combined sports work to solve this problem such as cricket. I think i remember hearing somewhere that no anthem is played as they alternate between stormont and somewhere in ROI.

[Dodge]

There's not too many sports. I know Bowls use a Green shamrock on white background but I think thats because the team is purely from the north.

There's also the problem with foreign tv stations. They'd be more likely to show the tricolour (think I seen one display it for the North's football team before :D )

[Dassa]

There's not too many sports. I know Bowls use a Green shamrock on white background but I think thats because the team is purely from the north.

There's also the problem with foreign tv stations. They'd be more likely to show the tricolour (think I seen one display it for the North's football team before :D )

once off hopefully:o remember they did it for Irvine as well. but surely if the people from NI can give up their flag when they outnumber southeners in a team then the players of Ireland from the 26 could do the same in rugby.

[Dodge]

I don't think anyone should be using bowls as a model, for anything really.

Irivine originally wanted to alternate between tricolour and union jack but his family got grief when the tricolour was flown when he was on the podium for the first time. He wanted to race under a nutral flag too BTW

[$Leon$]

last time i checked the irish rugby team did use a flag representing both "traditions" on the island. it's called the tri-colour. green for nationalism, white for peace and orange for unionism. this flag already represents ireland as a whole it's just the fact that 6 out of the 32 counties aren't part of it in political terms (yet).

[Dassa]

nice comments there mate really understanding of the whole population on the Island. I and many like me have no affiliation whatsoever to the tri-colour not that i dont understand that it represents many people on the Island and is the national flag of the ROI not Ireland which is an Island not a country.

Irvine never said he wanted to alternate. he said he wanted a neutral flag.

[Dodge]

Just to say the official name of the country is Ireland.

Not disagreeing with your point, just don't want to see semantics be the reason for this thread going down the tube.

[Poor Student]

Dassa there is the point that I think was made. The tricolour is the most identifiable symbol of Ireland abroad. Any other symbol could be confusing. I know Leon put it in a crude and irredentist way but it is funny to think that the symbolism behind the tricolour is actually very apt to do the job you're talking about. But I can understand for obvious reasons why you don't feel the most comfortable with it.

[Paulie]

I wouldn't like to lose Amhran na bhFiann or the Tri-Colour at Ireland Rugby matches. I have no problem though with the Northern Ireland flag being flown alongside our flag or Ireland's call being sung as well. Even though the song isn't the best at least it gives people who feel they can't sing Amhran na bhFiann something to sing to before the game.
On another slightly related note, myself and a mate went to the Ireland V Italy match in Rome last year and ended up on the beer the night before the game with an Orangeman and his mate. I never thought I'd see the day but we decided to leave politics out of the conversation as it would only have lead to arguing. Top lads, had a cracking night.

[gspain]

Cricket and Hockey use a Union flag and hockey at least have adopted Ireland's Call.

The actual situation for rugby at present is

1) No flag and Ireland's call for away games

2) Tricolour and AnabhF for Lansdowne

3) Union Jack and GSTQ for Ravenhill.

The last International at Ravenhill was Scotland 1954 and it involved a couple of players remaining in the dressingroom until after the anthems were played.

With the new stadium in the Maze it is likely that some Internationals will go back to NI. indeed I think the reason Thomnd Park and not Ravenhill has hosted a couple of the Mickey Mouse games is because of the flags and anthems issue. There are no flags or anthems at A or U21 games.

I actually like Ireland's Call.

[Dassa]

fair enough lads was looking your opinions and got them. Some would be happy for a neutral flag, others for the present system to continue and others would be happy to see NI and ROI flag flown side by side during matches. This last one I personally feel would be great to see or a neutral shamrock flag. This wasnt about trying to bring politics into sport, Many people were i live support Ireland during matches but many also cant bring themselves to on the basis of the anthem and flag of 1 country played and displayed for 2 different countries. Its hard to tell someone its their country playing with the current system that exists. cheers lads.

remember ireland having friendly a few years ago were it was quite small. I was absolutely shocked to see it at thomond ahead of Ravenhill. Guessed it was the IRFU's way of avoiding the problem which is there and will be in years to come when our stadium is built. I for one dont wont GSTQ or the ROI anthem played both are inappropriate for the team playing.

Are you sure about the hockey and cricket. Was at a game while back in cricket at stormont no GSTQ or UJ as far as I can remember, but may have been me being late as per usual.

[Schumi]

A four province flag (like this (http://users.scnet.yu/~shamrock/eire/flags/Flag-Eire-Four_Provinces.gif)) would be an accpetable 'neutral' flag for me. I really hate Ireland's Call though. It's an awful, artificial song.

[Over the post]

I think the four province flag is probably the best solution.

I don't like Ireland's Call and think that playing it and the national anthem is just ridiculous. One or the other, lads. If Ireland's Call is supposed to represent everyone, why bother with a national anthem.

I remember a good article by Kevin Myers a few years ago arguing that "There is an Isle" should be used instead of Ireland's Call. He claimed it would bring a tear even to Ian Paisley's eye!

[Soko]

remember ireland having friendly a few years ago were it was quite small. I was absolutely shocked to see it at thomond ahead of Ravenhill.



Why? Thomond Park has just as much right to host an international as Ravenhill. If that shocked you I'm suprised you're still with us.

[Dassa]

I was talking about the idea that you have an international in one country. when the opportunity arises to have it in the other country NI it should have been taken. It would have been a good gesture to people that the IRFU arent obsessed with keeping Ireland matches in only the one country.

[Soko]

I was talking about the idea that you have an international in one country. when the opportunity arises to have it in the other country NI it should have been taken. It would have been a good gesture to people that the IRFU arent obsessed with keeping Ireland matches in only the one country.



I thought this was one 'rugby' country and we have 4 provinces. The fact that Ravenhill is in Northern Ireland is not too relevant imo. Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connacht is how I see it and Munster got the game.


You're right on avoiding any hassle though. Ravenhill has more potential to get a little messy, Thomond is a banker to be an easy process so will win every time unless you get a big stadium. I'd expect to see quite a few smaller internationals in Limerick when the stadium plans are finished.

[Dassa]

I thought this was one 'rugby' country and we have 4 provinces. The fact that Ravenhill is in Northern Ireland is not too relevant imo. Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Connacht is how I see it and Munster got the game.


You're right on avoiding any hassle though. Ravenhill has more potential to get a little messy, Thomond is a banker to be an easy process so will win every time unless you get a big stadium. I'd expect to see quite a few smaller internationals in Limerick when the stadium plans are finished.

well thats your opinion and your entitled to it.

[Bald Student]

The tricolour is the most identifiable symbol of Ireland abroad. Any other symbol could be confusing.I think a shamrock on a white background would be just as identifiable, if not more so.

A neutral anthem would be best but Irelands Call really is a horrible song. Part of the problem aswell is that there is no anthem of Northern Ireland. If we played England in Ravenhill would we play GSTQ twice?

I think the four provences flag is very cluttered. I'd prefer to see four seperate provincial flags or maybe just the flag of the hosting province than that.

I noticed aswell that the EU flag was flying over the north terrace against Wales.

[Dassa]

A neutral anthem would be best but Irelands Call really is a horrible song. Part of the problem aswell is that there is no anthem of Northern Ireland. If we played England in Ravenhill would we play GSTQ twice?



at the minute probably and for me this isnt acceptable, NI doesnt have a suitable anthem at present but this doesn't merit the reasoning for the soldier song. A neutral is the only way forward.

[Dodge]

Don't NI use Danny Boy at the Commenwealth Games?

[Aberdonian Stu]

I'm not certain if they still do but they definitely did in 1990! Anyone old enough to remember that rendition of Danny boy (because they forgot the tape) when Wayne McCullough won gold can testify to that.

[geysir]

I haven't read any opinions of the players about the issue of the flag or the anthems. I saw when the teams were lined up, Humphries keeps his mouth glued shut for A na bF and belts out Ireland´s call.
The players seem okay with Irelands Call, apart from personal taste what's so contentious about it? It could be sung in kindergarten.


think the four provences flag is very cluttered.
It is indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Ireland
I do see that the flag of Ulster is for the 9 county province :)

[Soko]

The players are told to sing Irelands Call with gusto, I doubt most of them care too much for it either.

[crc]

I actually like Ireland's Call, but I can see that the jury is out on the issue. It may be an artificial song, but aren't all songs artificial in that case? At least its neutral, which is its most important characteristic.

Amhran na bhFiann is played because the games are played in Dublin, at away games only IC is played. Its not fair that Unionists never get to hear their anthem, but I think that GSTQ is a non-runner simply because a large section of the population in the North don't approve of it, not just those south of the border. Agreed symbols are difficult to get in NI, so I think Ireland's Call has achieved alot in that respect.

On the flags issue. As has been mentionned, the tricolour actually has quite profound meaning and was originally intended a symbol to unite both (and all) types of Irishmen. It had the noble aim of recognising that the Orange tradition is legitimate and should live in harmony in our little island. It is extremely unfortunate that it has been hijacked and tainted by militant republicans, and that Unionists don't accept it. However the simple fact is that Unionists don't accept it and therefore we need an alternative. IMO we should be able to agree some sort of flag that represents both parts of Ireland together and which is associated with neither state. It should symbolise that the Irish people want to be friends with one another. The St.Patrick's saltire is one option, or the four provinces flag, but the white flag with the shamrocks is probably the easiest (and also one very recognisable to foreigners).

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

last time i checked the irish rugby team did use a flag representing both "traditions" on the island. it's called the tri-colour. green for nationalism, white for peace and orange for unionism. this flag already represents ireland as a whole it's just the fact that 6 out of the 32 counties aren't part of it in political terms (yet).

Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.

The tricolour was designed to represent the whole of this island. Why should the majority be denied an important part of their cultural identity because Unionists have difficulty accepting it. I'm not sectarian but I might as well be blunt. I'm happier when there are no Ulster players on the team. In fact, I always like to see Ulster do poorly in the Heineken Cup. I much prefer a team comprised of Leinster and Munster players and I know a lot of people who feel the same. I'd much prefer to see young Kearney of Leinster in the Irish team ahead of Trimble. In recent years, rugby has been taken up more and more by nationalists and I hope this is a trend that continues.

[crc]

Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.
The tricolour was designed to represent the whole of this island. Why should the majority be denied an important part of their cultural identity because Unionists have difficulty accepting it. I'm not sectarian but I might as well be blunt. I'm happier when there are no Ulster players on the team. In fact, I always like to see Ulster do poorly in the Heineken Cup. I much prefer a team comprised of Leinster and Munster players and I know a lot of people who feel the same. ...
In recent years, rugby has been taken up more and more by nationalists and I hope this is a trend that continues.
And that, my friend, is one of the worst posts I've read on foot.ie in quite a while!

It's not about pure numbers, either in NI or Ireland as a whole, its about parity of esteem between both (and all) traditions. You claim to be a nationalist, yet you seem to be happiest excluding people from the north-east of your nation in its affairs (sporting or otherwise).
You claim not to be sectarian, yet you are exactly that by taking an extremely mono-ethnic view of who should be included - that's as bad (and a lot more short-sighted) than the Unionsist who excluded Catholics from an equal part in the Northern Ireland between 1921 and 1972.
We should be reaching out to Unionists in order to make them feel at ease with us. We shouldn't patronise them or tell them that their traditions were invalid (would / do you accept it if they do the same to you?).

We should articulate a vision that lets them know that the (united) Ireland of the future will treasure their culture and traditions (including the right to be British and have political ties with England, Scotland and Wales), and that they will have a valuable and valued part to play in the Ireland that we all construct.

And before you call me a Unionist appologist, or a west-Brit, I can assure you that I am 100% an Irish Nationalist. Its just that I can see that we will never have a united Ireland (or even an Ireland simply at peace with itself) if we don't recognise the validity af all major traditions on this island. Its not about cultural assimilation, but respect. If there ever is a united Ireland, it will look more like the GFA North than the present day ROI. You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

I appreciate your opinions and your open-mindedness on this issue but that's just the way I feel. It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. Indeed, I'd be someone who supports Unionists' rights to their own culture and beliefs. However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem. I think we've compromised enough by playing Ireland's Call.

[Dillo]

[QUOTE=TheJamaicanP.M.]Fair play to $Leon$. That's the best post I've read on foot.ie in quite a while.


Well done $Leon$. :)

[crc]

It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. ...
However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem.
Well, you seem reasonable enough about the issue. However, for me I'd like the symbols to represent all of Ireland. The tricolour ostensibly does that (by uniting Orange and Green), but in actual fact it doesn't really represent the Orange because they themselves say that it doesn't. Its an unfortunate fact of history, but I don't think we can delude ourselves into thinking that it does represent everyone in Ireland.

In the nineteenth century, the tricolour had a great symbolism. It was created with the very aim of trying to include both major traditions (why else would it have had orange in it?). But because it became associated with republicanism and the violence that occurred in 1916-23, and 1969-98, it doesn't hold any meaning for Unionists. It could have been blue, white and red, had a crown and an orange sash on it for all they care - as soon as it became associated with forces that were openly hostile and violent to them, it lost most of the original meaning it had. After all, the Union Jack has a whole portion devoted to Ireland (the St. Patrick's saltire), but that doesn't convince me that the Brits treasure the Irish because of it.

I like the tricolour and the anthem, but I would be more proud of symbols that attracted the allegiance of everybody. There is almost nothing I can think of that would make me happier than a united Ireland, but I know there isn't even the remotest chance of it happening if the orange side don't also feel comfortable within it. I like the fact that they're (mostly) comfortable with the Irish rugby team, in the same way that I'm happy to support the Lions. Its a quid-pro quo; its all about parity of esteem.

[Incidentally, I'd love to see an all-Ireland team compete in the Commonwealth games.]

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well, you seem reasonable enough about the issue. However, for me I'd like the symbols to represent all of Ireland. The tricolour ostensibly does that (by uniting Orange and Green), but in actual fact it doesn't really represent the Orange because they themselves say that it doesn't. Its an unfortunate fact of history, but I don't think we can delude ourselves into thinking that it does represent everyone in Ireland.

In the nineteenth century, the tricolour had a great symbolism. It was created with the very aim of trying to include both major traditions (why else would it have had orange in it?). But because it became associated with republicanism and the violence that occurred in 1916-23, and 1969-98, it doesn't hold any meaning for Unionists. It could have been blue, white and red, had a crown and an orange sash on it for all they care - as soon as it became associated with forces that were openly hostile and violent to them, it lost most of the original meaning it had. After all, the Union Jack has a whole portion devoted to Ireland (the St. Patrick's saltire), but that doesn't convince me that the Brits treasure the Irish because of it.

I like the tricolour and the anthem, but I would be more proud of symbols that attracted the allegiance of everybody. There is almost nothing I can think of that would make me happier than a united Ireland, but I know there isn't even the remotest chance of it happening if the orange side don't also feel comfortable within it. I like the fact that they're (mostly) comfortable with the Irish rugby team, in the same way that I'm happy to support the Lions. Its a quid-pro quo; its all about parity of esteem.

[Incidentally, I'd love to see an all-Ireland team compete in the Commonwealth games.]

There used to be a flag for Ireland which was Blue with a Harp on it.
That would cover it. After all Blue is represented on the shirts of the Northern Ireland international soccer team,( it's also on the Butcher's Apron) and the Harp has long been a symbol of Ireland before partition and before the reformation for that matter. As regards the Anthem. Ireland's Call sucks it's a bad song. The sentiments of the 4 provinces are good but the melody is poor . Not even one of Phil Coulter's better one's. "Shang a Lang "is better than it but not suitable for a national anthem.

"There is an Isle" is a nice solution, especially the call and response nature of the song. It's apolitical and emphasizes that whatever the political, ethnic and monetary divides it is still a singular piece of island! As regards your final point, in order for All-Ireland to compete in the Commonwealth Games, the Republic of Ireland would need to rejoin the Commonwealth and I think Britain will join the Euro before that happens!

[londonirish17]

And that, my friend, is one of the worst posts I've read on foot.ie in quite a while!

It's not about pure numbers, either in NI or Ireland as a whole, its about parity of esteem between both (and all) traditions. You claim to be a nationalist, yet you seem to be happiest excluding people from the north-east of your nation in its affairs (sporting or otherwise).
You claim not to be sectarian, yet you are exactly that by taking an extremely mono-ethnic view of who should be included - that's as bad (and a lot more short-sighted) than the Unionsist who excluded Catholics from an equal part in the Northern Ireland between 1921 and 1972.
We should be reaching out to Unionists in order to make them feel at ease with us. We shouldn't patronise them or tell them that their traditions were invalid (would / do you accept it if they do the same to you?).

We should articulate a vision that lets them know that the (united) Ireland of the future will treasure their culture and traditions (including the right to be British and have political ties with England, Scotland and Wales), and that they will have a valuable and valued part to play in the Ireland that we all construct.

And before you call me a Unionist appologist, or a west-Brit, I can assure you that I am 100% an Irish Nationalist. Its just that I can see that we will never have a united Ireland (or even an Ireland simply at peace with itself) if we don't recognise the validity af all major traditions on this island. Its not about cultural assimilation, but respect. If there ever is a united Ireland, it will look more like the GFA North than the present day ROI. You wouldn't accept it if your traditions were rejected (as was the case for northern Catholics), so why would you expect it of Unionists?

Sorry crc, about my response coming a bit late, but I just wanted to tell you that you bring it to the point. Everybody should feel at ease, respected and safe in a United Ireland (regardless of race, religion, ...) as people do for instance in Germany where half of the population are Roman Catholics and the other half Lutherans. I just wanted to mention this example without making to much comparisons despite that there are some parallels to be drawn between both countries.
Sports should reflect all these values!

[$Leon$]

I appreciate your opinions and your open-mindedness on this issue but that's just the way I feel. It just feels natural for me that I would prefer to see Leinster and Munster players on the team. I feel a closer connection to those players. I don't feel that way when I see Ulster players who have obviously don't sing my national anthem.
Despite what you think I'm not sectarian. Indeed, I'd be someone who supports Unionists' rights to their own culture and beliefs. However, I don't want those cultures to compromise my own as would happen if we got rid of the tricolour and national anthem. I think we've compromised enough by playing Ireland's Call.


can't really see your point about just munster and leinster. to be honest i think your just trying to stir the $hit. as someone who would love to see a 32 county republic the idea of integrating more northern unionists into mainstream irish society the better. sooner or later i believe i will get my wish but so as not to reignite the "troubles" with the roles reversed as unionists the minority in a nationalist country. just hope the same injustices that happened to nationalists don't happen to unionists.
personally i would love to see big ian in dail eireann

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

can't really see your point about just munster and leinster. to be honest i think your just trying to stir the $hit. as someone who would love to see a 32 county republic the idea of integrating more northern unionists into mainstream irish society the better.

Obviously because my view doesn't correspond with your's means that I am stirring the sh!t? If you had read my post correctly, you would see that I said that I was fully behind the rights of Unionists. However, I did state that I'd prefer Leinster and Munster players in the Ireland team as I feel more closely associated with them, in a similar way as people prefer to see a player from their own county.

I've been across the border in Northern Ireland twice in my life. It feels like a different country to me. To be honest, I have closer connections with England. You might like the idea of a 32 county Republic but I'm sure I'm still entitled to prefer the 26 county alternative.

You mentioned the idea of integrating Unionists into your new 32 county ideal. You talk about the need to treat them equally, unlike the way Nationists were treated in the North. Isn't this an ironic view for you to take all of a sudden? You were the person who stated earlier in this thread that the tricolour represents Unionists as well as Nationists (an opinion I agree with it) and that there is no need for a new flag to represent the full island. Will this be part of your ideology for a new 32 county republic? Isn't that the same as what Nationalists had to endure in the North with the Union Jack? Somehow I can't imagine Ian or his son for that matter, taking their seats in your Dail!

$Leon$, what you might view as politically correct or incorrect may not be the case with others.

I don't care what creed a player is when they play for Ireland. However, as stated already, I prefer players from Munster, Leinster and Connaught. While my opinion might not appeal to you or others on this forum, I have just as much a right to it.

[gspain]

FWIW the Union Jack also represents Ireland as it contains the Cross of St. Patrick.

Neither the UJ nor the tricolour can be considered to be neutral symbols.

[Over the post]

I'd prefer Leinster and Munster players in the Ireland team.

And I'd prefer a Munster 15, but politics dictates we have to pick a few Leinster lads to keep everyone happy :D

[Dassa]

I've been across the border in Northern Ireland twice in my life. It feels like a different country to me. To be honest, I have closer connections with England. You might like the idea of a 32 county Republic but I'm sure I'm still entitled to prefer the 26 county alternative.

You mentioned the idea of integrating Unionists into your new 32 county ideal. You talk about the need to treat them equally, unlike the way Nationists were treated in the North. .

The first part I actually agree with. I myself have no interest in a UI, not much in NI remaining in the UK either but seem to be the only option available to keep NI in existance as a country. So will have to do. ROI to me when I travel to it doesnt feel like my country, but Ive nothing against it and respect it is NI closet neighbour. I have no problem with anyone down south not wanting a UI or those that do.


As for the second part of your comment surely two wrongs dont make a right. If a UI did happen (hopefully never in my opinion) why would it be right not to treat people not even born in the 60's/70's equally.

[geysir]

Dassa, you started this thread with the preference for one neutral flag and anthem.
I really do not see the what the validity of the comfort zone issue is with the 2 flags, one anthem and a call. (Apart from musical taste and suitability with the Call).
I certainly do not hear any mumblings about discomfort from Ulster rugby followers, except about Eddie (the usual), O'Gara (sh!te) and justifiably, the near famine of internat. rugby at Ravenhill.
The 6 county section of the 9 county province does not even have home rule. The political representatives have yet to even agree to sit down and talk about what to do. When they do maybe they can agree (after 50 years) on having an acceptable anthem and flag which represents the positive aspirations of the 6 county inhabitants, then we can have 2 bonafide anthems and 2 flags at new Landsdowne rd and the new Maze. Maybe in your mind you are not referring to a geographical area of the 6 counties.
If you are referring to due respect for one particular sentiment of the 6 county inhabitants then there is more than one colour existing there.
At present we have the tricolour and the 9 county Ulster flag (the flag of Ulster rugby), flying at Landsdowne rd. As far as I am aware, Ulster is a 9 county rugby province with teams from Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal participating in the Ulster leagues.
Irish rugby is just a remarkable sporting unity not a political, social and cultural marraige.

[Dassa]

personally cant see why there is the need to fly the flag and play the anthem of 26 counties when the team represents 32. Not trying to get all political about it. Just think to fly IRFU flag would be alot more appropriate, And as for Ulster fans many I talk to arent happy with current situation they just dont think there is anything that can be done about it. People from NI shouldnt have to beg to feel included when the team is supposed to represent them. But as I mentioned before everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[crc]

People from NI shouldnt have to beg to feel included when the team is supposed to represent them
Exactly - parity of esteem.