View Full Version : Irish rugby
CollegeTillIDie
15/03/2006, 7:42 AM
Dassa
So What about the Blue Flag with a Harp on it as a neutral flag then?
CTID. yeah I remember reading somewhere that all the original AI teams such as football used to use this blue and harp idea for their skips so sounds ok to me in terms of a flag.
geysir
15/03/2006, 12:51 PM
Dassa, if you come on and say one neutral anthem and one neutral flag, one that can be played in all grounds home and away, games in the North and the South, that its more practical. I'd say fine. Its a thought. But if your reason is to say that its apprehension about coming down to Landsdowne rd (the only place where AnF is played), ignoring the flying of the flag of Ulster and the intention behind Ireland's call, I'd say that you are taking the offense bit too far.
I don't know the story behind it but as it stands now the flag of Ulster is the flag of Ulster rugby. Ulster rugby is " inclusive" of of all people from all backgrounds in all the Ulster 9 counties. I take it that you consider that the flying of that flag does not give due recognition to Ulster rugby followers. Then imo you are not in tune with the bulk of Ulster Rugby followers.
Just because the red hand had been hijacked by some unsavoury types doesn't make it sectarian. That is also the context of the tricolour. Its about context.
I do want 1 neutral flag 1 neutral anthem. The only reason I said both was because someone said that the tricolour had to fly and the soldier song would need to be played as the games in the ROI. If this is the case then the other country who are in the team( NI) must be represented by their flag. For me its either 2 national flags or 4 provinces flags to have the 26 county flag(national) and then the 9 county flag of ulster(province) basically says your country isnt recognised. the people who really benifit or the three counties of Ulster in ROI they get double recognition lucky them:D . We clearly have differance in opinions on this issue and what all inclusive in a one off of 2 countries playing as one is.
I do recognise the yellow ulster flag as my provences flag, but this is a national game and if people from munster,Leinster,connaght and 3 counties of Ulster can look up at the flag pole and see their national flag at a home game whats so bad about me asking for the same.
I know that the flying of the NI flag at Landsowne will never happen and thats why I believe that a neutral is the only way forward.
CollegeTillIDie
15/03/2006, 8:50 PM
CTID. yeah I remember reading somewhere that all the original AI teams such as football used to use this blue and harp idea for their skips so sounds ok to me in terms of a flag.
Well that's the flag sorted now for the anthem ! :)
Dassa
15/03/2006, 10:12 PM
If only everything was that easy:) ;)
geysir
15/03/2006, 11:06 PM
. If this is the case then the other country who are in the team( NI) must be represented by their flag. ... basically says your country isnt recognised.... . We clearly have differance in opinions on this issue and what all inclusive in a one off of 2 countries playing as one is..
You need to have a national debt before you can be called a country.
The NI flag (the ulster banner) has been officially decommissioned since 1972 according to thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland
Dassa
15/03/2006, 11:34 PM
Ill leave my opinion at what Ive said and thank you for your opinions. Glad to see some understand were Im coming from.
The NI flag (the ulster banner) has been officially decommissioned since 1972 according to thishttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_IrelandThat is absolutely correct, but in its place the national flag of NI is technically the Union Jack (notwithstanding the fact that its the flag of the larger entity, the UK)
This still doesn't resolve the issue of flag non-representation for NI Unionists. The fact remains that they NEVER get to see their national flag flown at games - the last game at Ravenhill was in 1953 IIRC!
FWIW, the tricolour is not flown because the Irish rugby team is playing, but because the game is being played in the Republic of Ireland. At away games the tricolour is not flown. If not for any other reason, I think this is why we should have an agreed flag and anthem that can be flown / played at all games (home and away).
On that note, and given the advanced hour, I shall leave it there. I can't wait for the final 6 Nations game tomorrow (or later today, even). I have a feeling we can do well, but I also think its a very bad thing to ever expect to do well against England, at Twickenham!!
sligoman
18/03/2006, 1:03 AM
Personally i think the way forward would be to have a white flag with a shamrock officially flown and only Irelands call played. Interested to hear what people down south feel about the potential for something like this to happen in future. Would personally be a very good step in right direction and make matches for people like myself feel like they are representing me.See where your coming from alright but the team is known as "Ireland" so of course the tri-colour should stay and the national anthem should be ours too.
See where your coming from alright but the team is known as "Ireland" so of course the tri-colour should stay and the national anthem should be ours too.I don't follow your logic. The rugby team has been called Ireland since the 19th century, but the 26-county state took that name only in 1937.
The IFA called their international team "Ireland" right up until the 1970s (saw some old footbage of Best in December - Ireland v Scotland from Windsor Park), but you wouldn't have accepted it as your team just because one side 'claimed' the whole island.
gspain
18/03/2006, 9:18 AM
See where your coming from alright but the team is known as "Ireland" so of course the tri-colour should stay and the national anthem should be ours too.
By your logic we should then drop the tricolour for football.
Northern Ireland used the term Ireland and picked players from all over the island until the F.A.I. took them to FIFA. Have a read of Peter Byrne's excellent history of the F.A.I.
geysir
18/03/2006, 11:47 AM
That is absolutely correct, but in its place the national flag of NI is technically the Union Jack (notwithstanding the fact that its the flag of the larger entity, the UK)!
Not quite
The Belfast Agreement in 1988 put it into limbo.
"The Union Flag is no longer flown over Parliament Buildings and state offices except on a limited number of 'named days' (honouring, for example Queen Elizabeth II's official birthday). One exception is Lisburn
This still doesn't resolve the issue of flag non-representation for NI Unionists. The fact remains that they NEVER get to see their national flag flown at games
Are you talking about a Unionist flag or a NI flag?
Are you inclusive or exclusive?
"Under the 1998 Belfast Agreement, states that:
All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division".
Ulster rugby followers have reclaimed the red hand symbol. Its an old symbol. It certainly raises eyebrows with the red Ulster shirt and the symbol. For the most part Ulster rugby followers are persisting with this. The attitude is, its inclusive of all cultures background political, nat and unionist. to reclaim the symbol from the moronic elements. Besides that, My opinion is is that this is probably an obvious choice for an official Ulster flag. The red hand also the symbol of Tyrone GAA.
I can't wait for the final 6 Nations game tomorrow (or later today, even). I have a feeling we can do well, but I also think its a very bad thing to ever expect to do well against England, at Twickenham!
Thats the spirit!
Are you talking about a Unionist flag or a NI flag?
Either TBH. Although I live in Cork, I'm still a northern Nationalist. I'm quite happy to let the symbols of the Republic represent my point of view, however I realise that 'other people' in NI (read: Unionists) don't share this view. For them, the symbols of the Republic absolutely do not represent them, and this is the specific issue that needs to be addressed.
Are you inclusive or exclusive?Most definately inclusive. However, if we are to be inclusive, we need to ask 'how'. Clearly the Union Jack or NI (1921-1972) flag are not going to be flown over Lansdowne Rd (let alone Croke Park!), so we need to come up with an alternative. This could be one of two things, either an agrred all-Ireland flag, or an agreed NI flag, I don't mind which. If it is the former, it would be instead of the tricolour, and if the latter along with the tricolour. The first one is favourable IMO - see, for instance the flag on the official 6 Nations website (http://www.6nations.net/splash.htm).
Dassa
20/03/2006, 11:59 AM
If NI flag is good enough to represent NI in football and Commonwealth games, surely it could be accepted at LR. It would be if football international between 2 countries was there. Ive no interest in UJ at LR but at Ulster matches the NI flag is clearly the most common flag. Some might not like the flag but thats always going to be the case on this Island with many not liking the tricolour.
My first preferance would be the IRFU flag and Irelands call(not great but its the idea behind it that counts)
Dodge
20/03/2006, 12:32 PM
Did the RFU use a nuetral flag at the weekend?
Did the RFU use a nuetral flag at the weekend?
Well the one on the pitch was the IRFU logo, as linked to above. No idea what was flown.
Patrick Dunne
20/03/2006, 1:22 PM
The Rose of Tralee was used as an anthem for the 1987 Rugby World Cup.
I would prefer Sister Sledge "We are Family".
gspain
20/03/2006, 1:28 PM
Did the RFU use a nuetral flag at the weekend?
Not sure if this is a deliberate mistake or trying to make a point but
1) The IRFU used Ireland's Call and an IRFU flag as is customary at all away games.
2) The RFU used GSTQ and the Cross of St George as at all England games.
Even if Shane Horgan had been draped in a union jack whistling GSTQ when he went over in the corner with 99 seconds left it wouldn't have been any less sweet, :D
Naitch
20/03/2006, 3:33 PM
Good to see at the end of the game seeing Andrew Trimble holding which i was pretty sure was tricolour , Trimble who as far as i know a Unionist maybe somebody can correct me on this. Also i love 'Irelands Call' i always find it very rousing and makes me very proud to be Irish
TheJamaicanP.M.
20/03/2006, 3:48 PM
Good to see at the end of the game seeing Andrew Trimble holding which i was pretty sure was tricolour , Trimble who as far as i know a Unionist maybe somebody can correct me on this. Also i love 'Irelands Call' i always find it very rousing and makes me very proud to be Irish
Trimble is a gentleman by all accounts and I'm not saying that because he might have been holding a tricolour.
On a different note, I was told just over a week ago that Andrew is a son of David Trimble. The lad who told me is 100% convinced that this is the case and couldn't believe that I didn't know this. I asked my brother (a seasoned rugby follower) and he told me that Andrew is no relation to David. I did a Google search and can't find a connection between the two men. Can someone enlighten me please?
On a different note, I was told just over a week ago that Andrew is a son of David Trimble. The lad who told me is 100% convinced that this is the case and couldn't believe that I didn't know this. I asked my brother (a seasoned rugby follower) and he told me that Andrew is no relation to David. I did a Google search and can't find a connection between the two men. Can someone enlighten me please?
Ah they're all the one souw's pigs i'd say
Good to see at the end of the game seeing Andrew Trimble holding which i was pretty sure was tricolour , Trimble who as far as i know a Unionist maybe somebody can correct me on this. Also i love 'Irelands Call' i always find it very rousing and makes me very proud to be Irish
watched it all and never seen Trimble holding tricolour,seen a picture of him and think it was Stringer who was holding it. Maybe looked that way about him holding it. The lad does seem to be a gentleman nd a devout christian.
$Leon$
20/03/2006, 4:18 PM
Trimble is a gentleman by all accounts and I'm not saying that because he might have been holding a tricolour.
On a different note, I was told just over a week ago that Andrew is a son of David Trimble. The lad who told me is 100% convinced that this is the case and couldn't believe that I didn't know this. I asked my brother (a seasoned rugby follower) and he told me that Andrew is no relation to David. I did a Google search and can't find a connection between the two men. Can someone enlighten me please?
as usual your right i'm wrong. andrew's fathers name is maurice. sorry bout the confusion PM
as usual your right i'm wrong.
$Leon$, give in. You're not an egg man and you never will be.
TheJamaicanP.M.
20/03/2006, 4:39 PM
$Leon$, give in. You're not an egg man and you never will be.
Just because $Leon$ made our senior cup team and you didn't, there's no need for jealousy. ;)
$Leon$
20/03/2006, 5:11 PM
$Leon$, give in. You're not an egg man and you never will be.
Your just jealous
our senior cup teamHas your location always been posted as 'Blackrock', PM, or is it just since the weekend??:p
Not sure if this is a deliberate mistake or trying to make a point but
1) The IRFU used Ireland's Call and an IRFU flag as is customary at all away games.
2) The RFU used GSTQ and the Cross of St George as at all England games.
Not trying to make a point. Didn't know that that flag ws standard procedure on away games. Used the term RFU as they were hosted the game. Obviously they woouldn't have done anything without consulting the IRFU.
Cheers for the info
TheJamaicanP.M.
20/03/2006, 8:20 PM
Has your location always been posted as 'Blackrock', PM, or is it just since the weekend??:p
It was previously just "Dublin". However, I changed it just over a week ago as Dublin is somewhat vague and I wouldn't want people to confuse me with being from other parts of Dublin. In any case, my location has been Blackrock for over 2 years now.
londonirish17
21/03/2006, 11:43 AM
...Also i love 'Irelands Call' i always find it very rousing and makes me very proud to be Irish
Yes, I do agree with you on that point!
Going back to a topic i started a while ago. I see that Ireland will finally play an International in Belfast next year (ITALY). In response to a Unionist MLA's call for GSTQ to be played the IRFU have suggested this will not occur and that Irelands call will be played as the anthem. I hope now that this will also lead to the removal of the soldier song from Landsdowne matches in the future and a sign of potential neutrality for anthems. This is a welcome step by the IRFU if carried out in the proper way for both areas of the Island.
beautifulrock
25/08/2006, 10:29 AM
Dassa you may hope, but I feel many will hope not and I for one will certainly be amazed if Amhrain na bhfiann is not sung before rugger games going forward.
Dassa
25/08/2006, 11:07 AM
well I have to say if the IRFU show themselves to be hypocrits on this issue they will have lost my support. I thought this would be a perfect chance to eradicate the problem of anthems in this AI sport. I can of course only speak for myself but it would be a disgrace to play only Irelands call in Belfast then return to Dublin and play SS and IC. I really hope the IRFU make the right choice finally.
beautifulrock
25/08/2006, 2:07 PM
Dassa, respect your view and watch with interest. However, I do not want to lose Amhrain na bhfiann, selfish perhaps but feel i am not the only one of this view.
I respect your opinion but it says little for a shared future on the Island and greater co-operation between the 2 countries if this hypocracy occurs. An anthem for 32 counties must be played (Irelands call) solely at all Ireland matches not a 26 county anthem.
holidaysong
25/08/2006, 9:32 PM
In fairness, I have to agree with Dassa on this. If there is no GSTQ in Belfast then there should be no Amhrán na bhFiann in Dublin.
gspain
26/08/2006, 9:07 AM
In fairness, I have to agree with Dassa on this. If there is no GSTQ in Belfast then there should be no Amhrán na bhFiann in Dublin.
Exactly. I never expected an Irish rugby team to stand for GSTQ as their anthem but surely this has to meana neutral flag and anthem for all future games.
bennocelt
26/08/2006, 12:45 PM
On the flags issue. As has been mentionned, the tricolour actually has quite profound meaning and was originally intended a symbol to unite both (and all) types of Irishmen. It had the noble aim of recognising that the Orange tradition is legitimate and should live in harmony in our little island. It is extremely unfortunate that it has been hijacked and tainted by militant republicans, and that Unionists don't accept it. However the simple fact is that Unionists don't accept it and therefore we need an alternative. IMO we should be able to agree some sort of flag that represents both parts of Ireland together and which is associated with neither state. It should symbolise that the Irish people want to be friends with one another. The St.Patrick's saltire is one option, or the four provinces flag, but the white flag with the shamrocks is probably the easiest (and also one very recognisable to foreigners).
yeah thats true
the original flag was meant to be for the two communities
either way....i couldnt give a toss about rugby.........if they call themselves ireland then i EXPECT the IRISH anthem.that irelands call is ajoke, an embaressment
northern ireland my a ss
Gather round
27/08/2006, 7:48 AM
either way....i couldnt give a toss about rugby.........if they call themselves ireland then i EXPECT the IRISH anthem.that irelands call is ajoke, an embaressment
northern ireland my a ss
If you don't give a toss, why are you embarrassed? The Soldiers' Song is only one of many Irish anthems, Ireland's Call is much more appropriate at rugby internationals. I agree it's a bit dull, mind.
bennocelt
27/08/2006, 10:34 AM
If you don't give a toss, why are you embarrassed? The Soldiers' Song is only one of many Irish anthems, Ireland's Call is much more appropriate at rugby internationals. I agree it's a bit dull, mind.
true
but more like an embarressment for the rugby crowd
i dont really care, thats for sure, but when i hear the irish national anthem. it would be nice to hear the real one, and not some mickey moise ****e
but you are very correct, i m not into rugby, its boring and slow, and posh
football is where the heart is
endabob1
06/09/2006, 4:48 PM
The simple solution has to be one flag one Anthem wherever the game is played. I've been to a fair few games home and away and Irelands Call get's a much better airing away from home, I think people are embarrased to sing it in Lansdowne because it's played straight after the soldiers song (which is a great tune too).
I'd go for the IRFU flag, simply because it's simpler then option B whoch would be the 4 provincial flags together.
I like Irelands call and while it's taken a while to really become accepted I think away from home (RWC in Oz especially) it get's the blood pumping and hairs standing up.
RogerMilla
07/09/2006, 8:20 AM
no problem with them stopping amhrann na bfhiann in dublin
under no circumstances should an Ireland team line out to GSTQ however , you have got to be kidding me
joeSoap
07/09/2006, 9:29 AM
Irelands Call to me is embarrassing. The lyrics, the air, everything about it smacks of the corporate world. It was written initially to placate two players (Denis McBride and Davy Tweed), and while I acknowledge their birth right to be British, then in my opinion they should have been told to **** right off to London to live or else lobby for an independent Northern Ireland team to play rugby union. No other Ulster player, or indeed the Ulster Branch of the IRFU had issues with the anthem prior to this. Until Davy went and put on his sash for an after match dinner versus Scotland did this issue come to light. McBride backed him and refused to represent Ireland in the 1995 World Cup in South Africa unless the anthem was dropped.
For me, its either the Soldiers Song, or nothing at all. They (McBride, Tweed and all other Ulster players and officials) get paid by the IRFU's euro, not by the RFU's pound note and if thats not good enough for them, then..........
Irelands Call to me is embarrassing. The lyrics, the air, everything about it smacks of the corporate world. It was written initially to placate two players (Denis McBride and Davy Tweed), and while I acknowledge their birth right to be British, then in my opinion they should have been told to **** right off to London to live or else lobby for an independent Northern Ireland team to play rugby union. No other Ulster player, or indeed the Ulster Branch of the IRFU had issues with the anthem prior to this. Until Davy went and put on his sash for an after match dinner versus Scotland did this issue come to light. McBride backed him and refused to represent Ireland in the 1995 World Cup in South Africa unless the anthem was dropped.
For me, its either the Soldiers Song, or nothing at all. They (McBride, Tweed and all other Ulster players and officials) get paid by the IRFU's euro, not by the RFU's pound note and if thats not good enough for them, then..........
this is a terrible post, do you not see the hypocrisy and tinge of bigotry expressed in your comment. Why should people who disagree with others be told to "**** off to london" Im not from London Im from Armagh which is on the Island of Ireland. a land mass which is represented by 1 rugby team.
joeSoap
07/09/2006, 10:19 AM
So why should someone from Armagh, Belfast, Tyrone, Derry or anywhere else be entitled to re-write tradition and make demands on something that has been in place for over 100 years. If these guys want to be considered British, then good luck to them, but let them represent Britain. I don't want them depriving me of my right to sing my country's national anthem at away games. They have no right to do that, especially seeing as they do not consider themselves Irishmen in the first place. If they didn't like the make-up or constitutionality of that rugby team, then they didn't have to play for it, did they??
Dassa
07/09/2006, 10:24 AM
Im actually asking to change the rule to accomadate all. to keep the tradition would mean using the original rule which was that when games played in ROI it was the ss and when games played in NI GSTQ played. funny how this rule is changed now that its NI turn to host game.
PS i am an Irishman not an ROI irishman but a northern irishman.
Aberdonian Stu
07/09/2006, 10:50 AM
Ok guys I'm not a mod but this is on that slippery slope.
For starters I thought all these points were dealt with in the National Anthems thread?
Secondly I seriously doubt that either of you is going to convince the other to change his point of view no matter how reasonable and logical you may consider your arguments to be. It'd be like trying to convince me to become a socialist, just not going to happen.
Lets stop this before it gets started ok and just focus on the rugby.
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