View Full Version : Irish Cup Semis
-lamb-
05/03/2006, 5:41 PM
it's getting down to the nitty gritty stage now.
the semi final draw for the irish cup has (surprise surprise:rolleyes: ) kept the big 2 apart.
larne v glentoran
bangor v linfield
to be played the weekend of 1/4/06
no venues announced yet.
C'MON THE INVER REDS!!!!!!!
Poor Student
05/03/2006, 7:29 PM
There was a 1 in 4 chance of Larne coming out of the hat. After that there's a 2 in 3 chance the next team will be one of the big two. Why all this whining over a fix?:confused:
glentoranfan
05/03/2006, 8:15 PM
There was a 1 in 4 chance of Larne coming out of the hat. After that there's a 2 in 3 chance the next team will be one of the big two. Why all this whining over a fix?:confused:
The balls were not mixed around on TV, apparently they were before hand though. Although, CCTV footage from the Oval boardroom (where the draw was conducted) would suggest otherwise.
When the balls were drawn, they were not rustled around the clear, glass bowl by the person removing them.
http://www.irishleagueforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53639
The balls were not mixed around on TV, apparently they were before hand though. Although, CCTV footage from the Oval boardroom (where the draw was conducted) would suggest otherwise.
When the balls were drawn, they were not rustled around the clear, glass bowl by the person removing them.
I could never imagine anyone in a position of authority in Northern ireland ever fixing the outcome of something. Its just beyond the realms of possibility! :eek:
I could never imagine anyone in a position of authority in Northern ireland ever fixing the outcome of something. Its just beyond the realms of possibility! :eek:
This mightier than thou attitude from Derry City supporters can't half be annoying at times. For something that you supposedly don't care about you seem to take a hell of a lot of interest in the Irish League.
This mightier than thou attitude from Derry City supporters can't half be annoying at times. For something that you supposedly don't care about you seem to take a hell of a lot of interest in the Irish League.It was supposed to be a little bit of humour - you know "ha, ha...":)
David
06/03/2006, 12:20 PM
It was supposed to be a little bit of humour - you know "ha, ha...":)
By getting your usual wee dig at the Irsh League, the favourite past time of Derry City supporters. ;)
paudie
06/03/2006, 12:39 PM
There was a 1 in 4 chance of Larne coming out of the hat. After that there's a 2 in 3 chance the next team will be one of the big two. Why all this whining over a fix?:confused:
I saw the draw on final Score.
A transparent pot, transparent balls containing the names of the teams, no mixing of the balls, on camera anyway, a mix up over which teams were allocated numbers 1 to 4.
Then when the slips of paper were drawn there were names written on them, not numbers!
It may not have been a fix but anybody looking for evidence of a fix had plenty of fuel for the fire
lofty9
06/03/2006, 12:49 PM
Watched it myself. According to BBC the teams were to be identified through numbers not names. They had a good look to see which one they drew out - the balls were in full view - Not saying it was fixed but it was really done badly.
Speranza
06/03/2006, 2:29 PM
David, it is certainly enjoyable laughing at a league which did everything in it's power to ruin us as a club and is now in ushc a state. Any league with Ards e.t.c in it's premier division is there to be laughed at especially those who have benefitted from it's ills.
It will never get tiresome...
David, it is certainly enjoyable laughing at a league which did everything in it's power to ruin us as a club and is now in ushc a state. Any league with Ards e.t.c in it's premier division is there to be laughed at especially those who have benefitted from it's ills.
It will never get tiresome...
I was only a few years old when Derry were in the IL so I am by no means an expert on what happened at that time. However I know enough to know that it was obviously unsafe for clubs to visit the Brandywell (something that does not seem to have changed). As for having Ards, people in glass houses and all that, the EL is not exactly coming down with the likes of Real Madrid and Chelsea.
David, it is certainly enjoyable laughing at a league which did everything in it's power to ruin us as a club and is now in ushc a state. Any league with Ards e.t.c in it's premier division is there to be laughed at especially those who have benefitted from it's ills.
It will never get tiresome...
cant really see why you would have a go at Ards. Ok the club are struggling with no money. But sure every club has its fair problems like DCFC had a few years ago with your then MP having to arrange glamour friendlies which were great to see. Least now Ards have realised they cant spend money they dont have and have started playing a few local lads who are there not for money.
superfrank
06/03/2006, 3:29 PM
It's hard to see past a big two final.
glentoranfan
06/03/2006, 6:08 PM
I think you have to admire Ards for still going regardless of the rest.
As for Speranza's comments on the IFA and the Irish Premier League. It is no wonder little or no progress is made in Nortern Ireland with people living 30 years in the past.
Do you think the people that were in the IFA then are the same as they are now? Do you think those running the clubs are the same then as they are now?
There are much greater issues in the world today at stake then whether or not Derry City got a hard time 30 years ago. I am not saying there will not be any bitterniss, of course there will, nor I am saying they should just say "aye, it's all fine now". But again, arrogance will just make people switch off.
Speranza
07/03/2006, 12:59 AM
David, I am in a similar situation as yourself in that I have no immediate knowledge of us leaving the IL. However it was as dangerous for City fans in that era to visit almost every other ground in the league as confirmed by an interview on the first podcast on the official site by Davy who posts regularly on ILF. Why were we the only club targeted?
Do you think the people that were in the IFA then are the same as they are now? Do you think those running the clubs are the same then as they are now?
No I don't and I personally feel the suits running the IL would jump at the chance of having Derry City back. It doesn't stop me remembering how the ifa tried to ruin my club.
Dassa, I wasn't having a go at Ards rather clubs at that level being present in any premier division. No ground, no fans, no future and giving nothing to the clubs who are ambitious. There are one or two in the EL but the IL seems full of clubs like this e.g the Bangor chairman saying the league should go amateur to survive.
David, I am in a similar situation as yourself in that I have no immediate knowledge of us leaving the IL. However it was as dangerous for City fans in that era to visit almost every other ground in the league as confirmed by an interview on the first podcast on the official site by Davy who posts regularly on ILF. Why were we the only club targeted?
You have to admit that he is naturally going to put a Derry City slant on things. As I said I am no expert, I was not born until 1969 so was very young but whilst other grounds might have had their risks due to the times we were living in, I don't think the severity of those risks was anywhere near that which faced visiting teams going to the Brandywell with opposition team coaches being burned if reports are anything to go by. As I said in my previous post I am not sure that things have changed all that much down Brandywell way given our visit there a year ago which is a real pity as those events have nothing whatsoever to do with your club and excellent supporters.
Dassa
07/03/2006, 10:06 AM
Dassa, I wasn't having a go at Ards rather clubs at that level being present in any premier division. No ground, no fans, no future and giving nothing to the clubs who are ambitious. There are one or two in the EL but the IL seems full of clubs like this e.g the Bangor chairman saying the league should go amateur to survive.
We are a smaller country with more teams so of course fan bases for some will be smaller. But trust me clubs like Ards have true fans and for them to hear people say they have no future will come as a dissapointment. It might look bleak at the minute but alot of their debt has been cleared and they are now playing on a budget that can work. Next problem for them to sort out is the ground. My own club is very small with an average home gate of about 300. However this is from a village of 400 people which shows you the interest there. And why should other teams care about how many fans other teams have as long as that team can work within a budget that suits them like we do and still put a team on the pitch that at least gives the bigger teams a game (ask Linfield).
Poor Student
07/03/2006, 11:48 AM
And why should other teams care about how many fans other teams have as long as that team can work within a budget that suits them like we do and still put a team on the pitch that at least gives the bigger teams a game (ask Linfield).
Well said. We have a very contorted and warped view down here. There's an inferiority complex among people due to the lack of interest and slagging the league gets down here, which has lead people to become obsessed with the image of the league to outsiders and trying to bash and root out smaller clubs. All leagues all around the world have clubs who will probably never win the league and only occasionally have their moment in the sun, yet to admit such here is seen as "ambitionless, club is going nowhere" etc. The most important things are stable clubs which run within their budget no matter how small. The ruthless ambition that some people want ruins most clubs who aren't equipped for that kind of spending.
Dassa
07/03/2006, 11:59 AM
Well said. We have a very contorted and warped view down here. There's an inferiority complex among people due to the lack of interest and slagging the league gets down here, which has lead people to become obsessed with the image of the league to outsiders and trying to bash and root out smaller clubs. All leagues all around the world have clubs who will probably never win the league and only occasionally have their moment in the sun, yet to admit such here is seen as "ambitionless, club is going nowhere" etc. The most important things are stable clubs which run within their budget no matter how small. The ruthless ambition that some people want ruins most clubs who aren't equipped for that kind of spending.
yeah strange that considering that it is some of these clubs fans who in the past complined about UEFA becoming elitist and harbouring to the wishes of the big clubs at the expense of the smaller clubs in relation to european competitions and the seeding of tems and the removal of the open draw.
There's an inferiority complex among people due to the lack of interest and slagging the league gets down here, which has lead people to become obsessed with the image of the league to outsiders and trying to bash and root out smaller clubs.
Agree with all you said PS. The only measure should be whether you win enough games to stay in the division and spend money within your means.
I don't think this thread should degenerate into one about why Derry City left the IL - there are plenty of threads that explain it very well. In my original post I was actually trying to make a reference to gerrymandering, but the reference must have gotten lost.
If the IFA were trying to keep the Glens and the Blues apart, do you think that the big two could be called Belfast's "Old Firm"? (Aren't Celtic and Rangers so called because they were always trying to arrange fixtures between themselves to make more money?)
Dassa
07/03/2006, 12:19 PM
scary thing is that if we were talking about thi being fixed this would mean that those doing the draw were involved. Including an International manager, just cant see that being the case and trust me I have no time for the Incompetent F**king Asses
dcfcsteve
08/03/2006, 11:51 AM
This mightier than thou attitude from Derry City supporters can't half be annoying at times. For something that you supposedly don't care about you seem to take a hell of a lot of interest in the Irish League.
I think you'll find his gag was a reference to Northern Ireland as a place in general - not just football, and certainly not re Derry City.
So if any fixation is being revealed here, surely it's the one that drags Derry City into a situation were they were not being referred to at all in the first place ! Sounds like a bad dose of reverse-paranoia to me.......
dcfcsteve
08/03/2006, 11:56 AM
You have to admit that he is naturally going to put a Derry City slant on things. As I said I am no expert, I was not born until 1969 so was very young but whilst other grounds might have had their risks due to the times we were living in, I don't think the severity of those risks was anywhere near that which faced visiting teams going to the Brandywell with opposition team coaches being burned if reports are anything to go by. As I said in my previous post I am not sure that things have changed all that much down Brandywell way given our visit there a year ago which is a real pity as those events have nothing whatsoever to do with your club and excellent supporters.
I don't want this to be contorted into a Derry City thread (particularly when it's non-Derry fans trying to do it) but there is an important point of accuracy that needs to be made here.
The British Security Forces and the Irish League's own Safety Committee both declared that there were no safety or security reasons why football couldn't resume at the Brandywell at the time that the vote on returning to the Brandywell was taken in September 1972. Yet still the Irish League Management Committee decided that they knew better. As you've rightly said David, you were too young at that time to be aware of the original facts. But surely you would accept the Security forces assessment at that time would be a better reflection of the reality of the situation than your own presumption-based personal guesses 34 years later ?
Now can we go back to making this a non-Derry City thread agan please.....
I don't want this to be contorted into a Derry City thread (particularly when it's non-Derry fans trying to do it) but there is an important point of accuracy that needs to be made here.
The British Security Forces and the Irish League's own Safety Committee both declared that there were no safety or security reasons why football couldn't resume at the Brandywell at the time that the vote on returning to the Brandywell was taken in September 1972. Yet still the Irish League Management Committee decided that they knew better. As you've rightly said David, you were too young at that time to be aware of the original facts. But surely you would accept the Security forces assessment at that time would be a better reflection of the reality of the situation than your own presumption-based personal guesses 34 years later ?
Now can we go back to making this a non-Derry City thread agan please.....
I can base my opinion on my one and only visit to the Brandywell which which almost exactly 12 months ago. Now I do remember things from throughout the seventies and one thing that I can be sure of is that things have improved since then. If what happened in February 2006 is an improvement the God only knows what it was like then. Oh and we were also told last year that we would be safe. I can also base my opinion on what my father has told me of his numerous visitis to the Brandywell to watch Linfield and the fact that a visiting team's coach was burned out. The reason that Derry City was brought into the thread was that a Derry City supporter seen a chance to have a pop at football in Northern Ireland.
Speranza
08/03/2006, 3:20 PM
I find it astounding that Linfield fan is portraying the security at the Brandywell in the 70's as unsafe.
I recall a post on ILF just a few weeks ago which refered to a grenade being aimed at Cliftonville fans. What about the Donegal Celtic riot? Although I wasn't around to witness events first hand the tales of older Derry fans going to Windsor are also frightening.
I find it astounding that Linfield fan is portraying the security at the Brandywell in the 70's as unsafe.
I recall a post on ILF just a few weeks ago which refered to a grenade being aimed at Cliftonville fans. What about the Donegal Celtic riot? Although I wasn't around to witness events first hand the tales of older Derry fans going to Windsor are also frightening.
The grenade attack was a paramilitary attack and an isolated incident. The Donegal Celtic incident was brought about by hangers on on both sides. A team whose support was usually in double figures all of a sudden managed thousands. Thing is with the Brandywell we don't have to go back to the 70s but just to February of last year so I find it astounding that a Derry City supporter can come on here and knock Irish League football.
-lamb-
08/03/2006, 7:19 PM
venues have been announced as seaview (crusaders) for the bangor v linfield game and windsor park for the larne v glentoran game.
it seems just a little odd that both larne and the glens wanted to play theirs at the ballymena showgrounds (permission given, approx 4500, probably a full house and certain to have been a good atmosphere) yet the ifa still picked windsor park (14,000 odd, probably more than half empty and dead).
Lux Interior
09/03/2006, 12:59 AM
I find it astounding that Linfield fan is portraying the security at the Brandywell in the 70's as unsafe.
I recall a post on ILF just a few weeks ago which refered to a grenade being aimed at Cliftonville fans. What about the Donegal Celtic riot? Although I wasn't around to witness events first hand the tales of older Derry fans going to Windsor are also frightening.
To be fair, my dad (who is still a regular) travelled to the Brandywell in Derry's IL days. Forget security reports (and the like), it was pretty "frightening" for him and his mates in and around the ground at that time. The burning of the Ballymena bus (whilst not a target for City supporters) was also indicative of how "unsafe" that journey for away fans had become.
The "grenade aimed at Cliftonville fans" (who incidentally cheered when it went off, thinking it was a 'republican' device) was lobbed from outside the ground - by scum not connected to Linfield FC (ditto the Ballymena bus - do you see where I'm going here?). As for the "Donegal Celtic riot" - average crowd 200, yet 5000 turned up that day. You do the math.
Lux Interior
09/03/2006, 1:03 AM
it's getting down to the nitty gritty stage now.
the semi final draw for the irish cup has (surprise surprise:rolleyes: ) kept the big 2 apart.
Yeah, but how does that explain why we played Linfield in the 1998 and 2000 Irish Cup Semi Finals and why we played Linfield in the quarter finals last season and the season before?:rolleyes:
Krstic
09/03/2006, 7:44 AM
Thing is with the Brandywell we don't have to go back to the 70s but just to February of last year so I find it astounding that a Derry City supporter can come on here and knock Irish League football.
Any trouble in Belfast lately????
I don't know, maybe a match involving your own team playing the the glens.
Any trouble in Belfast lately????
I don't know, maybe a match involving your own team playing the the glens.
Of course there was, there is always the possibility that trouble can break out at matches but can you not see the difference between trouble breaking out between rival fans and a ground not being safe to go to because of the area that it is in?
Krstic
09/03/2006, 9:34 AM
Of course there was, there is always the possibility that trouble can break out at matches but can you not see the difference between trouble breaking out between rival fans and a ground not being safe to go to because of the area that it is in?
Are you trying to tell me that the Brandywell is the only ground or area in Northern Ireland where Linfield fans have been attacked???
Are you trying to tell me that the Brandywell is the only ground or area in Northern Ireland where Linfield fans have been attacked???
To that extent and in recent years, yes.
Lux Interior
09/03/2006, 12:37 PM
Yeah, but how does that explain why we played Linfield in the 1998 and 2000 Irish Cup Semi Finals and why we played Linfield in the quarter finals last season and the season before?:rolleyes:
Incidentally, winning all four:cool:
Speranza
09/03/2006, 3:38 PM
Lux, I get exactly where you are coming from and agree that clubs shouldn't be punished for incidents outside their control although they should obviously attempt to stop these incidents.
My point however was that we suffered while Linfield didn't. Cliftonville suffered while Linfield didn't. There are numerous stories of City fans being attacked at Linfield some which scare the life out of me. Why weren't Linfield made to suffer?
-lamb-
09/03/2006, 5:28 PM
Yeah, but how does that explain why we played Linfield in the 1998 and 2000 Irish Cup Semi Finals and why we played Linfield in the quarter finals last season and the season before?:rolleyes:
you didn't think the draw looked just a little suspect?!?? starting to sound like a blueman there lux:eek:
Lux, I get exactly where you are coming from and agree that clubs shouldn't be punished for incidents outside their control although they should obviously attempt to stop these incidents.
My point however was that we suffered while Linfield didn't. Cliftonville suffered while Linfield didn't. There are numerous stories of City fans being attacked at Linfield some which scare the life out of me. Why weren't Linfield made to suffer?
Just what exactly do you want Linfield punished for? What did Linfield do that deserves punishment?
Lux Interior
10/03/2006, 7:57 AM
you didn't think the draw looked just a little suspect?!?? starting to sound like a blueman there lux:eek:
:D
"Urban Agenda!"
Speranza
10/03/2006, 5:13 PM
Linfield didn't do anything wrond just as Derry City didn't. The sectarian board of the I.F.A judged that it was not safe for teams to visit the Brandywell. Why wasn't the same judgement made about Linfield when City fans were attacked, Cliftonville fans came under grenade attack and a riot occured against Donegal Celtic?
Linfield didn't do anything wrond just as Derry City didn't. The sectarian board of the I.F.A judged that it was not safe for teams to visit the Brandywell. Why wasn't the same judgement made about Linfield when City fans were attacked, Cliftonville fans came under grenade attack and a riot occured against Donegal Celtic?
The fact is that it was not safe for visiting teams to visit the Brandywell (and it seems it still isn't) which is why presumably the IFA made this decision. The grenade attack was an isolated incident by a paramilitary group which was cheered by a large section of the Cliftonville support who thought it was an IRA bomb. Nobody was injured if I remember correctly. The Donegal Celtic thing was a different matter entirely and again isolated as the crowd was swelled by hangers on and the worst of the trouble was when the so called Donegal Celtic fans (a few thousand when they would rarely have had 100) rioted with the police. You have picked out two incidents over the 30 year duration of the troubles and one of these was caused by a group simply looking trouble with the police.
Speranza
13/03/2006, 3:44 PM
The fact is that it was not safe for visiting teams to visit the Brandywell (and it seems it still isn't) which is why presumably the IFA made this decision
It was not safe for Cliftonville fans to travel to Windsor. Irrespective of who it was or indeed who Cliftonville fans thought perputrated the attack a grenade attack is much more serious than hoods burning what they knew was an empty bus.
The IFA have punished two teams in the last 40 years because they felt their ground was not safe. These two teams have support which would be of nationalist persuasion. Conincidence? I think not.
You have still not referred to the numerous occasions when City fans were attacked in Windsor!
-lamb-
13/03/2006, 7:06 PM
are derry city relevant to the irish cup semi's? nope
are derry city relevant to the current irish league? nope
do most irish league fans want to go watch derry city while they play in the brandywell? nope
do most irish league fans want derry city back in the irish league if they moved somewhere not quite so under "restorative justice"? maybe/probably
am i glad derry city left? yep. my team got their rightful place back in the senior division.
now, please can (insert interested parties) take this derry city history discussion to an appropriate thread?
Speranza
13/03/2006, 8:16 PM
So Lamb in a post that attempts to show Derry City have no relevance to this thread you go and comment on........Derry City.
do most irish league fans want to go watch derry city while they play in the brandywell? nope
do most irish league fans want derry city back in the irish league if they moved somewhere not quite so under "restorative justice"? maybe/probably
am i glad derry city left? yep. my team got their rightful place back in the senior division
One attack outside the Brandywell and you scorn us despite a huge riot on the playing surface in the Oval. We really shoudldn't get so riled as we will never be back in your two-bit ambitionless league populated by teams who are glorified amateurs i.e Larne.
Now feel free and discuss your fixed cup semis. I'm busy with City hammering your IL champions. :)
-lamb-
13/03/2006, 9:23 PM
meoooooooow
i have no bones to pick with derry city, i have scorned nobody but they have no relevance in this thread whatsoever. you make comments about a riot when you obviously haven't a clue what my opinions on it are.
as usual a derry city fan goes all insular and defensive. big surprise eh? you really shouldn't get so riled but time and time and time and time again yous do. jethro tull comes to mind - living in the past.
i have no comment on your other snidey, bitter opinions (and yes, thats exactly what they are).
i made a post about irish cup semis and it gets hijacked into a derry city argument........wtf? start your own thread and have a cry if thats what you want.
It was not safe for Cliftonville fans to travel to Windsor. Irrespective of who it was or indeed who Cliftonville fans thought perputrated the attack a grenade attack is much more serious than hoods burning what they knew was an empty bus.
The IFA have punished two teams in the last 40 years because they felt their ground was not safe. These two teams have support which would be of nationalist persuasion. Conincidence? I think not.
You have still not referred to the numerous occasions when City fans were attacked in Windsor!
One wee problem with your theory here Einstein. When Cliftonville were "punished" and we were not allowed to go to their ground in the early 70's, they did not have a nationalist support, that is only something that developed in the late 70's.
your two-bit ambitionless league populated by teams who are glorified amateurs i.e Larne.
Now feel free and discuss your fixed cup semis. I'm busy with City hammering your IL champions. :)
A league that you were hardly overly successful in when you played there. A few teams in the EL not exactly full time pros.
Mr_Parker
23/03/2006, 8:21 AM
The fact is that it was not safe for visiting teams to visit the Brandywell (and it seems it still isn't) which is why presumably the IFA made this decision. The grenade attack was an isolated incident by a paramilitary group which was cheered by a large section of the Cliftonville support who thought it was an IRA bomb. Nobody was injured if I remember correctly.
A Linfield turnstile operator was treated for shock from what I recall. As for some of the crowd cheering, totaly irelevant to wether it is/was a safe ground. Also important to remember that the IFA refused to condemn the attack.
Mr_Parker
23/03/2006, 8:27 AM
The IFA have punished two teams in the last 40 years because they felt their ground was not safe. These two teams have support which would be of nationalist persuasion. Conincidence? I think not.
One wee problem with your theory here Einstein. When Cliftonville were "punished" and we were not allowed to go to their ground in the early 70's, they did not have a nationalist support, that is only something that developed in the late 70's.
Cliftonville were never punished for that incident. The game that day did not even involve Cliftonville supporters, it was an Irish Cup game between Ballymena and Linfield.They did however suffer because of incidents that happened well away from the ground by not only losing home advantage against Linfield for circa 30 years but also from many semi finals and finals etc that up until that point had been held at Solitude.
David
23/03/2006, 11:02 AM
Cliftonville were never punished for that incident. The game that day did not even involve Cliftonville supporters, it was an Irish Cup game between Ballymena and Linfield.They did however suffer because of incidents that happened well away from the ground by not only losing home advantage against Linfield for circa 30 years but also from many semi finals and finals etc that up until that point had been held at Solitude.
I was aware of all that which is why I had the inverted commas around the word punished.
David
23/03/2006, 11:03 AM
A Linfield turnstile operator was treated for shock from what I recall. As for some of the crowd cheering, totaly irelevant to wether it is/was a safe ground. Also important to remember that the IFA refused to condemn the attack.
Why is that important?
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