Am I Racist

[max power]

ok dont know what why to approch this but here goes,

does it get up anyone elses nose that when you walk into a store and ask for soemthing of a member of staff that they stare at you as if you have two heads, a lot of workers have no english and i personally feel its a bacis right to walk into a shop and for the staff to be able to speak the same language as you.

maybe its more the employers fault for not insisting that all staff members have a basic level of english, perhaps its just their sheer greed in wanting to raise the profit margin by reducing wage levels.

one light recently i was in store in dublin and i had a problem with something, i asked the staff for the name of and number of the manager as he was not on duty at the time, here is the response i was given.....

"you write it down, its your language". i nearly fell over, i was so pi$$ed off that anyone could say that to me, afterall i go to work in france i learn french etc.

at that moment i wished every foreigner in the land would just fcuk off home.

now maybe this was a flash in the pan moment but i do have problems with certain other aeras of foreign society within this country which i dont want to go into at the mo cause i'll be here all day.

BUT

i do have similar problems with irish people, so i ask, just because those others are foreign nationals of different race and colour , would i be conisdered a racist :confused:

[aido_b]

I've had that problem a couple of times both in Ireland and over here in England too. I think that every staff member who has to deal with customers should have at least basic english.

It happenend to me in a supermaket in London recently. I went around the shop asking nearly every staff member where a product was and eventually got the manager who turned out to be the only english speaking person in the store, bar the cashiers. I told him that id had difficulty with his staff and he just told me that they were the only staff he could get so I think thats what it comes down to. Employers are just desperate for staff now and will hire anyone that can do the job regardless of their race and language.

[Block G Raptor]

You are entitled to an acceptable level of customer service, people in this country are afraid to stand up and say fcuk this it not good enough. example yesterday at lunch my colleague asked for a soft brown roll and got a white baguette he didn't complain because he "felt sorry for the guy who had feck all english at the deli counter and was worried that he'd look racist if he complained " well I say Fcuk that if an Irish person gets my order wrong I'll tell them so I dont think its racist of me to do it to the foreigners

[max power]

Thanks tommy, the debating team in your school must have been top notch.

[Block G Raptor]

Racist.

Are you taking the P!ss or you just naturally an Ignorant fool

[max power]

tommy as we are talking about basic levels of english try putting, "you are" before racist. its called a sentance :rolleyes:

[wws]

Fair point Tommy. Bloke asks a question gets an answer and starts moaning. What's the problem with the racist cant?? :D

[noby]

Being peeved over bad service in a shop etc. is understandable. Wishing people to "**** back to where they came from" is dodgy ground to say the least, and is probably what Tommy was responding to.

[max power]

Being peeved over bad service in a shop etc. is understandable. Wishing people to "**** back to where they came from" is dodgy ground to say the least, and is probably what Tommy was responding to.

what if that person was from dublin and living in longford ????

[jebus]

First off I think Tommy's answer was acceptable in that he got to his point so there's no need for the insults.

Secondly Max Power I don't think you're racist based on those sentiments. When I was working in France I made a good attempt to learn French (even though my job didn't involve me ever having to actually speak it) and by the end of my time there I had a fairly decent understanding of the language. The English workers that were on the same job as me however made no attempt whatsoever to learn the language and consequently didn't fit in with our french co-workers as well as I did. The simple reason for this being that the French appreciated that whilst my French itself was not up to scratch, that at least I were making an attempt to improve it. So why were are not allowed to apply this very reasonable sentiment to our own culture without the Left Wing Nazis crying to the media is beyond me

[Risteard]

On first reading, i would say yes, you are indeed a racist maxpower. But cop on would tell me you were just a bit ****ed off.

i personally feel its a bacis right to walk into a shop and for the staff to be able to speak the same language as you.

Technically, you don't have a basic right to walk into the shop at all. Admission is at the managers discretion i believe.

Nearly all the sales assistants in my area are non-nationals. The only reason for that is even 16year olds in school now wouldn't take on those jobs in garages etc (Dunnes would be a different scenario and a step up.)
From my experience, they have all been well able to communicate.
You've a right to be ****ed off if they're unable to process your transaction and understand what you want but i have never been in that position.

I'm glad that for once, nobodys yet used that Fox-news manufactured 2-letter term used nowadays to encourage pardoning racism. (think police constable)

[Dodge]

at that moment i wished every foreigner in the land would just fcuk off home.
That comment is outrageously racist.

There's no easy answer to the customer service problem. I can guarentee you that pretty much every Irish shop/restaurent owner in Ireland would love to have 100% Irish staff but Irish people, on the whole, don't want to work there. Its not like the non English speakers working there deliberately don't try to learn English. Look at it from their pov. They need money, the only job they can get is McDonalds so they work there. Why should they be told to "fcuk off home" because of that?

[Peadar]

We've had a huge influx of different nationalities into the country recently. Many of them needed to find work quickly and certain sectors are more than willing to hire people if they think they can pay as little as possible.

We've got to be patient while things settle down and our new arrivals gain the confidence to speak English. That wont happen if they are intimidated by irate customers. Deep breaths, count to 10. Life is too short for anger.

[noby]

what if that person was from dublin and living in longford ????
If in that case you also felt " at that moment i wished every foreigner in the land would just fcuk off home.", then, to me, whether they're from Longford or not is not the issue.

[Risteard]

Well Maxpower didn't say it, did he?
He's telling us he felt like saying it at the time, frustrated at having to write out "Can i have one pack of Smarties please?" to the guy.
It's not a rational conclusion to draw from the episode though.
And the way you write about it would tell me that you knew that. Hence why you did not say something along those lines.

[max power]

but i also said i feel the same about irish people some times, the main thing i'm saying if i have a peoblem with and irish person and with a foreign national.....should i be considered racist becuase one of them is a foreign national.

if i call someone a dublin w@nker......

if i call someone a Polish w@nker......

just becuase of where they are from society considers one worse than the other, the peas & carrots mentioned comes to mind.

[Block G Raptor]

A question was asked and i answered with my honest opinion so u can cut out the insults.

My humblest apologies. I thought you were trying to be funny/controversial
but at least if you are going to label someone with a tag(which is basically what you've done with your one word answer)I suggest you back it up with reasonable cause

[Risteard]

but i also said i feel the same about irish people some times, the main thing i'm saying if i have a peoblem with and irish person and with a foreign national.....should i be considered racist becuase one of them is a foreign national.
No, of course not.

Thing is you said one of them.
If you were to gain an opinion (positive or negative) out of the guys entire race/ nationality that would be racist.

What's racist and what's not isn't really a blurred line imo.
It's pretty straightforward.

[noby]

but i also said i feel the same about irish people some times, the main thing i'm saying if i have a peoblem with and irish person and with a foreign national.....should i be considered racist becuase one of them is a foreign national.

if i call someone a dublin w@nker......

if i call someone a Polish w@nker......

just becuase of where they are from society considers one worse than the other, the peas & carrots mentioned comes to mind.
Calling someone a w@nker isn't racist. Wishing (even if you didn't say it out loud, Risteard)
all those foreigners would "go back to where they came from" is not the same as calling someone a w@nker. This point you don't seem to get.

[Dodge]

but i also said i feel the same about irish people some times, the main thing i'm saying if i have a peoblem with and irish person and with a foreign national.....should i be considered racist becuase one of them is a foreign national.

if i call someone a dublin w@nker......

if i call someone a Polish w@nker......

yeah but you wouldn't call them a Dunblin w@nker would you? And don't lie, I've heard you call people w@nker before. If the polish guy is a w@nker,why not just call him a w@nker

[Block G Raptor]

No, of course not.

Thing is you said one of them.
If you were to gain an opinion (positive or negative) out of the guys entire race/ nationality that would be racist.

What's racist and what's not isn't really a blurred line imo.
It's pretty straightforward.

I think a lot of people in this country feel that it is quite a blurred line
because it seems that in the current climate many people have been incorrectly or indirectly called racist.
a couple of example's of this. I was queueing at the receptionist to register to see the G.P there was about 7 people in the queue, An African lady arrived and walked straight to the hatch without queueing when the Receptionist pointed out that there was a queue the African Lady began to hurl abuse at her accusing her of being racist.
I also know of many taxi drivers who have been called racist because they wont allow foriegn nationals to haggle the price of the fare.
I know a lot of people are unwilling to object to certain sections of our immigrant population basically taking the P!ss in this way for fear of being called racist


Rant Over ..................For Now

[WeAreRovers]

Who else is going to work in Spar/Centra etc etc? It's the economy stupid, simple as that. We need these people or else you couldn't get a tuna roll or a packet of fags or a magazine or a pint of milk at 3.00am - something that you would be hard pressed to get anywhere else in Europe.

As a nation we demand convenience and if the price is that you have to speak a bit slower to the foreign national behind the counter then so be it. Have none of you been to New York? The greatest city in the world and virtually nobody working in the service industry speaks English as a first language.

I'm not going to say that Max Power is racist but on numerous occasions I've had to remonstrate with racist Irish tossers in shop queues.

KOH

[klein4]

when I was working in australia I had to ring people up and this one woman asked me for my fax number which involved saying 333. she kept getting me to repeat it and I kept sayin it without pronouncing the th. until eventually she said "oh THree THree THree!...if you are going to come work in a country you should at least make an effort to learn the language!" Which i suppose is similar to max power going into a shop and making a point about the people behind the counter not speaking english properly.
I told her I was only there for the year and didnt think it was long enough to learn aboriginey and she hung up. :)

[Hither green]

I think a lot of people in this country feel that it is quite a blurred line because it seems that in the current climate many people have been incorrectly or indirectly called racist. a couple of example's of this. I was queueing at the receptionist to register to see the G.P there was about 7 people in the queue, An African lady arrived and walked straight to the hatch without queueing when the Receptionist pointed out that there was a queue the African Lady began to hurl abuse at her accusing her of being racist. I also know of many taxi drivers who have been called racist because they wont allow foriegn nationals to haggle the price of the fare.
I know a lot of people are unwilling to object to certain sections of our immigrant population basically taking the P!ss in this way for fear of being called racist

In fairness though, queuing and haggling are both cultural things. I know that I've done things out of place in other countries simply because I was unaware but I wasn’t knowingly taking the p1ss and I think it would have been harsh to assume that I was.

Many may regard me as a “left-wing nazi” in that I normally take the more inclusive line on these arguments, but I don’t think you’re asking too much to expect shop workers to speak english. Whose fault is it though? I don’t blame people for coming to Britain or Ireland, we've a good standard of living etc. And I don't blame the governments for welcoming immigrants, both countries would struggle to function without them. And I don’t blame those people taking whatever work they can get in order to live. But these aren't your problem, if you’ve a problem with poor service in a shop, then you’ve a problem with the shop and I'd recommend you complain to the manager or not patronise it. Repatriating immigrants has nothing to do with it.

[klein4]

Whose fault is it though? I don’t blame people for coming to Britain or Ireland, we've a good standard of living etc. And I don't blame the governments for welcoming immigrants, both countries would struggle to function without them. And I don’t blame those people taking whatever work they can get in order to live.
what the hell have we got to do with britain????????:confused:

[REVIP]

I was queueing at the receptionist to register to see the G.P there was about 7 people in the queue, An African lady arrived and walked straight to the hatch without queueing when the Receptionist pointed out that there was a queue the African Lady began to hurl abuse at her accusing her of being racist.

I was at a meeting last week where Fr Angelo Lafferty was the speaker. Angelo's work amongst the immigrant community has been widely recognised.

He told a story of standing in a queue in the Post Office when an African guy came in and pushed in at the front. No-one challenged him, so Angelo, who is well-built, went to the front and told the man that he should join the queue.

'I'm in a hurry', said the man.

'So am I', said Angelo. 'So is everyone here. You must join the back of the queue'.

'You're a racist', said the man.

'Do you know Fr Angelo?' asked Angelo

'Yes', said the man, 'he is a good friend of mine'.

'Well', said Angelo, 'I'm Father Angelo and I'm telling you that you must join the queue'.

The man went out and the people in the queue clapped. Angelo then turned on them and said, 'You're being racist in not expecting new comers to behave as we would expect Irish people to behave'.

It was a fair point. Failing to expect people to conform to reasonable standards is as much a form of racism as being abusive.

Perhaps receptionists and other staff should be trained to tell people that there are certain norms of behaviour and it would be racist if we didn't expect people to live up to those norms.

If staff do not communicate properly, perhaps we should point out to management that they should provide proper training.

[Ash]

Bit of a double edged sword, people could say that your rasist for discriminating
against a shop assistant who doesnt speak English, but you could also say that
the shop was discriminating against any customer who hasnt an adequate grasp
of the shop assistants language!

[Hither green]

what the hell have we got to do with britain????????:confused:

Sorry wasn't connecting the two in any other way other than it being an identical experience to what is experienced over here. Or indeed throughout Europe.

[Peadar]

what the hell have we got to do with britain????????:confused:

Nothing at all, we live in a cocoon! :rolleyes:

[klein4]

We are actually a country in our own right not a province of Britain. Nothing to do with being in a cocoon. Its no more relevant than comparing us to britain than to any other country in the world. But seeing as you have Britains immigration situation is rooted in a colonialist past and Irelands has its roots a period of rapid economic growth. so I think they are different situations.

[max power]

I have been called racist many times and that was in a work situtuin when people weren't getting what they wanted, i feel they thought it would shame me into giving in, but not a hope.

on the shop thing, if i pay for a serivce i expect it to be professional and up to a certain stanard, not being able to speak basic english falls well below that standard.

Dodge many times i have called someone a dublin w@nker, being a culchie it would be something that i'd do......not always but somethings.

[anto1208]

ok dont know what why to approch this but here goes,

does it get up anyone elses nose that when you walk into a store and ask for soemthing of a member of staff that they stare at you as if you have two heads,

at that moment i wished every foreigner in the land would just fcuk off home.


:

i think its fair to expect a certain level of english to be spoken by foreigners if they are dealing with people ie in shops your not racist for that ,
but i would ask

1)do you have a strong accient that maybe is hard to understand , if i go up north it like a different language ! i was in glasgow and had to get the white scotish english speaking girl to repeat herself 3 times in KFC she was asking what drink i wanted !!! :D

2) what where you asking for maybe they had never heard of it next time your in the uk ask for red lemonade and see the way they look at you !!:D


your i wish they'd all feck off home comment is racist as you include all foreigners even english speaking ones that you may not consider foreigners ( ie: english scotish south african austrialian etc etc ) but i dont think its your normal point of veiw but you should ask your self serious questions about why you get so upset over nothing .


i take into account how bloody hard english is to learn , the fact they may not have had the oportunities to learn languages

[klein4]

you have the choice not to pay for a service if you dont think it is good enough.

[max power]

you have the choice not to pay for a service if you dont think it is good enough.

indeed and the company in question wont get another cent from me.

[Dodge]

Yeah but you were already ****ed off enough to be asking for the managers name and number

[Hither green]

We are actually a country in our own right not a province of Britain.

Sorry did someone dispute that? I wasn’t aware that the discussion being held was on an issue specific to Ireland or that the thread was one only people in Ireland could contribute to. I’m often the first to say to the english that they can’t complain about immigrants as they were the ones that went out to get an empire in the first place, but I don’t think all of their current immigration can be put down to the empire, Britain’s also had some economic growth and also experienced the same wave of Eastern European migration following the expansion of the EU. If you check out other countries news sites you’ll find immigration is an issue being discussed in many countries and my attitude's the same, fine disagree with government policies but don't take it out on the migrants.

[liam88]

In my opinion- you are not racist but there is a degree of ignorance. I once held the same view as you (which I totally regret) but think about it:

-You're driven out of your country through proverty/impression/attack/forced marraige/corrupt police force
-You come to Ireland/UK desperate to find a new life (though you miss your family and home country a lot you know you cannot go back)
-You want to learn English (come on no "foreigner" deliberatly wants to be isolated through lack of language skills)
-You also need to earn money to live (most people int his situation work every hour God sends)
-You don't have the time or money to learn English before going to work-you have to go straight there-you also figure out than constant contact with people through work you will pick up English quicker than sitting in your flat reading books (true fact)

Give them a chance!

Yes the guy who said "it's your language you write it down" was in the wrong but most immigrants don't have this attitude. Most are desperate to learn English and fit in-believe me I've seen it. Give them a chance and just remember they are facing hardships and are just trying their best. They probably don't want to work 18 hours in a shop to pay the rent on their cramped flat but they have to start somewhere and unfortunatley its lower down than us who are privelaged enough to come out with qualifications and fluent grasp of the language of the country.
And I'm not saying every "immgirant" has been beaten up by facist soldiers or climbed over borders to escape execution (though lot's have) but I think you'll find the majority didn't want to leave their homes and famileis in the first place and are jsut trying their hardest in a difficult new land which is intimidating enough without not speaking the language.

[Dodge]

And I'm not saying every "immgirant" has been beaten up by facist soldiers or climbed over borders to escape execution (though lot's have) but I think you'll find the majority didn't want to leave their homes and famileis in the first place and are jsut trying their hardest in a difficult new land which is intimidating enough without not speaking the language.

Not disagreeing with your sentiments but this passage is untrue. The VAST majority of nonEU nationals in Ireland are voluntarily migrant

[max power]

Yeah but you were already ****ed off enough to be asking for the managers name and number

i was but that was due to a desicion the manager made in relation to store policy and not anything personal against the employee in person, they were only doing what the manager told them to do.

it was the comment, "its your language, you write it" that pushed my buttons. if he had said my english isn't very good i would have said nothing but it was his attitude and the way he said it.

[Block G Raptor]

i take into account how bloody hard english is to learn , the fact they may not have had the oportunities to learn languages

Fair point but I feel in order for these people to be allowed to come here and work their should be a pre-requisite that they have at least a fundamental understanding of the language

[Risteard]

Just befor my rant there, let me point out that i believe Ireland is not swimming with racism.
I think a lot of people in this country feel that it is quite a blurred line
because it seems that in the current climate many people have been incorrectly or indirectly called racist.

Well that is true, but doesn't that just show that some people are idiots more than anything such as the cases you've stated.
A far greater number of people are incorrectly or indirectly racially abused than called a racist.


a couple of example's of this. I was queueing at the receptionist to register to see the G.P there was about 7 people in the queue, An African lady arrived and walked straight to the hatch without queueing when the Receptionist pointed out that there was a queue the African Lady began to hurl abuse at her accusing her of being racist.
From that example i would not expect a debate on whether the receptionist was acting racially. I would draw the conclusion that said African lady is an idiot.


I also know of many taxi drivers who have been called racist because they wont allow foriegn nationals to haggle the price of the fare.
Well do these drivers allow irish people to haggle the fare? I don't know. I haggle fares. :)
If they do= racist.
If they don't = not racist.
It's not rocket science.

Didn 't really understand your last line there BGR but hows that Derry one?
Still putting her before Bohs? :p :D

[Dodge]

Fair point but I feel in order for these people to be allowed to come here and work their should be a pre-requisite that they have at least a fundamental understanding of the language
Most of the poeple working in the service industry in Dublin are English language students working on the side. And as I;ve said already if they do the job, no one will

[Eire06]

When dubs come down the country I've heard plenty of people say I wish them dubs would F off home and I've heard the same comments regarding Polish and africians...
are both cases rasist?
(I Have heard dubs wishing 'culchies' would f off back home too....)

It is a very blurred line and some people are over sensitive to it and some people are just downright ignorant to it

[Peadar]

are both cases rasist?

Contary to public opinion outside the Pail, "Dubs" aren't a race.

[klein4]

Sorry did someone dispute that? I wasn’t aware that the discussion being held was on an issue specific to Ireland or that the thread was one only people in Ireland could contribute to. I’m often the first to say to the english that they can’t complain about immigrants as they were the ones that went out to get an empire in the first place, but I don’t think all of their current immigration can be put down to the empire, Britain’s also had some economic growth and also experienced the same wave of Eastern European migration following the expansion of the EU. If you check out other countries news sites you’ll find immigration is an issue being discussed in many countries and my attitude's the same, fine disagree with government policies but don't take it out on the migrants.
My attitude is the same as yourself so dont disagree with you on that point.
As I said before tho we are a totally different country to Britain with totally different experiences. As it is an Irish football website I dont see the problem with making that distinction.

[Soper]

I'd be more concerned about your signature, max.

[Eire06]

Contary to public opinion outside the Pail, "Dubs" aren't a race.
:rolleyes:

Both comments are intended to insult two groups of people.
Is one racist and one not? If so why

[Dodge]

Because of the word race...

[max power]

I'd be more concerned about your signature, max.

EXPLAIN :confused:

[wws]

Contary to public opinion outside the Pail, "Dubs" aren't a race.


yeah....we prefer the term "master race".

as proven by the 0-1 gubbing we gave you in Cork. A taster of whats in store this season for the falsh in the pan champs