Union Jacks [Archive]

pedro

22/02/2006, 10:16 AM

Why is it that no matter what football league u follow there are always..Always .. Union Jack's in the crowd or some variation on the british flag (ahem..eircom league not included!)
So whats the deal, can anyone shed some light on the subject.
Could it be that so many countries view the Union Jack the same way they view the Swastika, ie the embodiement of a domineering bloodthirsty menace.?? This would explain the respective clubs ULTRAS fans being fond of it. Am i being paranoid? has anyone else noticed this? Discuss/

finlma

22/02/2006, 10:33 AM

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I often watch La Liga and never see a Union Jack. I also watch the Premiership and see a Tri-Colour at nearly every game.

$Leon$

22/02/2006, 10:33 AM

i'd say what you notice is actually the Basque flag red green and white almost the same design as union jack

noby

22/02/2006, 10:34 AM

Any examples? I can't think of any outside Britain.

noby

22/02/2006, 10:35 AM

Leon, I thought of the Basque flag, but that hardly covers "no matter what football league u follow"

Dodge

22/02/2006, 10:41 AM

Most european hoolies (there's not really a hoolie scene in La Liga) look up to the English hoolies (Of the 70s/80s) and have the union jack in the same way that students have a Che Guevara flag...

pedro

22/02/2006, 12:24 PM

Most european hoolies (there's not really a hoolie scene in La Liga) look up to the English hoolies (Of the 70s/80s) and have the union jack in the same way that students have a Che Guevara flag...

thanks dodge, i was beginnin to think it was paranoia! but yeah i was thinkin along those lines.
i have mainly seen it in Italy and Holland but im sure you will all notice it now that i have brought it up.
And as far as the Basque flag goes.. c'mon gimme some credit!:cool:

Poor Student

22/02/2006, 12:25 PM

Could it be that so many countries view the Union Jack the same way they view the Swastika, ie the embodiement of a domineering bloodthirsty menace.?? /

I'm going to warn you on that comment. I'll let the thread continue as there is an actual question being asked but tread carefully people.

tetsujin1979

22/02/2006, 12:55 PM

Could it be that so many countries view the Union Jack the same way they view the Swastika, ie the embodiement of a domineering bloodthirsty menace.?? This would explain the respective clubs ULTRAS fans being fond of it. Am i being paranoid? has anyone else noticed this? Discuss/
Not really, you could ask why are Italian ultras so fond of Celtic crosses, the embodiment of Irish monks?

stickyjoe

22/02/2006, 1:33 PM

Feyenord is one ground that I have been to where I spotted a few union jacks. AFAIK the celtic cross is viewed in europe as an alternative symbol for a swastika?

OwlsFan

22/02/2006, 1:37 PM

Why are there so many tricolours at PL games in England ;) ?

pedro

22/02/2006, 1:41 PM

Could it be that so many countries view the Union Jack the same way they view the Swastika, ie the embodiement of a domineering bloodthirsty menace.??

ok sorry that was fairly out of order but im just tryin to get to the bare bones of the topic. and lets be fair the Union Jack doesnt really hold any positive image especially on these shore's and further afield.

superfrank

22/02/2006, 2:46 PM

Leon, I thought of the Basque flag, but that hardly covers "no matter what football league u follow"
Republicans are quite fond of the Basque flag, the Palestinian one too.

Why are there so many tricolours at PL games in England ;) ?
Obvious one that.....unfortunately.

pete

22/02/2006, 3:03 PM

Most european hoolies (there's not really a hoolie scene in La Liga) look up to the English hoolies (Of the 70s/80s)...

I always believed that was the case but more linked to the St Georges Cross/Flag.

Dodge

22/02/2006, 3:12 PM

Union jacks easier to get. Also the St. George cross is also the St. Jordi (same guy) Cross and a fe wother local variants. Union Jack only means one thing

pedro

22/02/2006, 3:43 PM

Union Jack only means one thing

And whats that Dodge..careful now!!!:rolleyes:

renovater

22/02/2006, 9:46 PM

And whats that Dodge..careful now!!!:rolleyes:
Lads dont get carried away flags are flags they represent what you want it to be'
That can be good in one mans eye and another not so good

Dodge

22/02/2006, 11:03 PM

I meant it in that the union jack symbolises britain only, where as flag of St. George is used by loads of regions etc

londonirish17

23/02/2006, 10:40 AM

Any examples? I can't think of any outside Britain.
I can tell you at least of 2 countries where you can find Union Jacks or ST George's crosses on nearly every ground... Belgium and the Netherlands.
In these 2 countries some of the harder elements who belong to "A Side"(term used for Ultras) i.e X-Side Antwerp, East Side Club Brugge, O-Side Anderlecht, ... strongly identify themselves with everything related to British hooliganism etc. Various sociological studies have shown that these supporters also tend to show up on some games involving the English national team just hoping that some trouble will happen.
Of course most of these guys never held any history book in their hand and are therefore unaware of what it means to brandish a Union Jack abroad...

lopez

23/02/2006, 12:59 PM

I think this fashion is dying out a bit, mainly because the tans don't bother carrying the Butcher's Apron anymore (one bloke I know claims he'd use the blue bit to wipe his ar*e, such is the respect it has these days). During the eighties it was the flag of honour of many a Euro-scumist. Anyone here old enough to remember those nice shaven-head lads that thought it a good idea to wave it at the Irish fans in Berne 1985? Man, did they get tw*tted!:eek:

On the side show of Irish tricolours and Ikurrinas, I've seen the former at Basque and Galician clubs (not Catalan for some unknown reason) in la liga and definitely not carried by Irish footy-tourists. And I'll never forget the 'birthday present' that Deportivo fans gave Real Madrid at the end of the 2002 Copa del Rey. It seemed every fan had bought an ikurrina to hold up as they sang 'Happy Birthday to You.':D Another favourite (Depor, Celta, some Betis and Sevilla) is the Jamaican flag. Hmmm: Wonder what that's about? :confused:

Dodge

23/02/2006, 1:29 PM

Union jacks still popular in eastern europe

cheifo

23/02/2006, 4:56 PM

I think I remember seeing one at Ibrox.:p

The boys who manned the spitfires in the BOB wouldnt be too happy to see right wing fascists adopt it.

anto eile

23/02/2006, 8:40 PM

I think I remember seeing one at Ibrox.:p

The boys who manned the spitfires in the BOB wouldnt be too happy to see right wing fascists adopt it.
britains stance in the two world wars was hypocritical.
union jacks are often used as a hooligan flag,but some fans simply use it as it has similar colours to their club

pedro

24/02/2006, 4:05 PM

Lopez wrote

Anyone here old enough to remember those nice shaven-head lads that thought it a good idea to wave it at the Irish fans in Berne 1985? Man, did they get tw*tted!

unfortunately I dont know anything of this incedent, but im really curious, can u tell us more?

lopez

24/02/2006, 4:45 PM

unfortunately I dont know anything of this incedent, but im really curious, can u tell us more?OK. A group of local bonehead youths came in with those German style denim body warmers of the early eighties, complete with Schalke 04 :confused:, Millwall :confused: and of course the three hyenas :eek: Nothing was worn that represented their alleged country, Switzerland. One of them starts waving the butchers' apron and shouting abuse at the Irish fans. It kicked off minimally, but in my younger days I may add, I had already had words from my peers about my behaviour following a minor altercation with some Copenhagen policemen the previous october, so I stayed out of this. Anyway towards the end of the game they came back but more threatening. Suddenly it went thermo nuclear and I find myself punching f*ck out of some Romper Stomper extra. I was told later the fracas was mentioned on the comentary of the game being shown in Ireland. In the end one of the poor dears was carried out on a stretcher.

The odd thing about it all was that the police took no action., either during it or following it all. I was witnessed while with Hando, by a Policeman talking into a radio on the pitch but he seemed to take no action. Some Swiss I later talked to told me they hated this crowd, calling them Nazi German lovers, the sort that wanted Switzerland included in a German (fourth) reich.

Patronizer

24/02/2006, 4:47 PM

The Irish flags some 'fans' bring along to wave & mount at, as I've seen, ALOT of English Premiership games is nearly a situation that defies judgement. Who knows what's goin through their minds & what their meaning is?

Maybe they're trying to tell us something? They should try themselves first! :rolleyes:

It seems they wanna burst through their beliefs but are trapped in they're own delusions. :confused:

1 9 2 8

24/02/2006, 7:07 PM

Another favourite (Depor, Celta, some Betis and Sevilla) is the Jamaican flag. Hmmm: Wonder what that's about? :confused:
Legalise it :D

The UJ is used by right wing hools in Europe

CollegeTillIDie

25/02/2006, 5:50 PM

Why are there so many tricolours at PL games in England ;) ?

Cause lots of morons with whom you share a passport bring them with them to games I suspect !:D

CollegeTillIDie

25/02/2006, 5:52 PM

britains stance in the two world wars was hypocritical.
union jacks are often used as a hooligan flag,but some fans simply use it as it has similar colours to their club

Well Cork GAA fans fly anything remotely Red and White. Japanese Imperial Navy Flags, Star spangled banners, Canadian Flags, Swiss Flags, Austrian Flags, Danish Flags etc. because they are red and white the colours of Cork Bogball and Hurling teams!

CollegeTillIDie

25/02/2006, 6:05 PM

lopez

25/02/2006, 8:56 PM

I personally do not recognise the Butcher's Apron. Simply because in FIFA there is no such thing as the United Kingdom. There are England ( Flag = St. George's Cross) Wales( Flag = Red Dragon on green and white background) and Scotland ( flag = St Andrew's Cross on Navy Blue background).
The Union Jack represents English hegemony over Wales and Scotland and as such is a bit of a red rag to a bull in my view. The British Empire is defunct. So that flag should go the way of the Hammer and Sickle ( USSR) The East German flag etc.I'm the opposite. United Nations members only in FIFA. If they want to have four teams join that tournament with Greenland and Tibet. Butchers apron is a fair reflection of the union of England and Wales and Scotland into a greater nation-state. It's the addition of the so-called St Patrick's cross I have a problem with.

CollegeTillIDie

25/02/2006, 9:33 PM

There was a Union Jack before 1800 which featured only the George's Cross and the Andrew's Cross... that could be restored easily without any fuss.

Dodge

26/02/2006, 12:01 AM

There was a Union Jack before 1800 which featured only the George's Cross and the Andrew's Cross... that could be restored easily without any fuss.
Yeah, there'd be no fuss at all :rolleyes:

CollegeTillIDie

26/02/2006, 7:36 AM

Yeah, there'd be no fuss at all :rolleyes:

Well it wouldn't be claiming Ireland on it... i.e. no St. Patrick's Cross

Dodge

26/02/2006, 12:35 PM

I know what it means. But you're an idiot if you think this wouldn't cause "fuss"

p_o_r

26/02/2006, 1:32 PM

I meant it in that the union jack symbolises britain only, where as flag of St. George is used by loads of regions etc

That's true about the St. George is used by loads of regions.
At the Ireland V Italy friendly last August I was in the West Stand near the corner of the North Terrace where the Itilian fans where.

You could clearly see in the Itilian crowd that someone had a flag very similiar to a St. George's cross

Some idiot of a woman behind me kept standing up and directing phrases like 'you English w**ker' at the guy in the terrace with the flag :confused:

Afew months back I watched a replay of the Enbland v West Germant WC Semi final in 1990.
Most of the England fans had Union Jacks, since Euro 1996 it seems that the English have starting using the St. George's cross much more than the Union Jack.

p_o_r

26/02/2006, 1:44 PM

Well it wouldn't be claiming Ireland on it... i.e. no St. Patrick's Cross

Last time I checked the flag of this country (Republic of Irelnd) was Green White and Orange, I don't see it in a Union Flag so what is the problem.

The flag of NI, which like (Wales, England and Scotland) is part of GB, is a St. Patrick's cross with a emblem in the center, therefore it should be part of the Union Flag.

Jerry The Saint

26/02/2006, 1:51 PM

2 quick things on this:

- There are plenty of people in Wales, Scotland and Ireland who define themselves as British and don't view the Union Jack as some sort of symbol of English imperialism.

- Not everyone in the world "hates the Brits" as much as our proud little nation.

Poor Student

26/02/2006, 3:08 PM

Lads if you want to debate your ideal Union flag and what the Union flag means to you then do it on the Current Affairs forum of elsewhere.

CollegeTillIDie

26/02/2006, 3:47 PM

lopez

26/02/2006, 8:28 PM

The flag of NI, which like (Wales, England and Scotland) is part of GB,.WRONG! Even our Northern friends would concede that NI isn't Britain, but part of the United Kingdom.

is a St. Patrick's cross with a emblem in the center, therefore it should be part of the Union Flag.WRONG! It's a red cross with the hand of Ulster in the centre. St Pat's cross is a 'saltire'. Like it or not, this (and the German lady's Harp on her flag) is irredentism. Not surprising really as the Brits look on Ireland as a prodigal son waiting to come home. Look at the support we get in the British media in 1994 when the British teams all failed to get there.:D

Thanks to the the EU, he's gone for good. We might laugh at Americans not knowing where any other country is on the map, but there is an embarrassing number of Britons that I've personally met that think British troops still trudge around Dublin. The widow of Christopher Ewart Biggs spoke out years back that Britain's irredentism of Ireland should stop and Irish citizens should not being given automatic rights in Britain that no non-Commonwealth country's citizens would get, like the vote. She was right.

Not everyone in the world "hates the Brits" as much as our proud little nation.You need to travel a bit more, son! They hate the 'Brits' in Spain far more than the Irish will ever do. And to prove the point they don't fly over in droves every fortnight to England to watch football or walk about in Scum U or A*sehole shirts. Nor pad their national TV station with soaps of 'life' in Manchester and Borehemwood.:rolleyes:

Dodge

26/02/2006, 11:02 PM

You need to travel a bit more, son! They hate the 'Brits' in Spain far more than the Irish will ever do. And to prove the point they don't fly over in droves every fortnight to England to watch football or walk about in Scum U or A*sehole shirts. Nor pad their national TV station with soaps of 'life' in Manchester and Borehemwood.:rolleyes:
Could be bacause of the standard of their own football or indeed the language barrier, but you can believe what you like.

lopez

27/02/2006, 9:29 AM

Could be bacause of the standard of their own football or indeed the language barrier, but you can believe what you like.
And then there are the ammount of British newspapers in the newsagents, often - as a correspondent in the Irish Post wrote last week - stocked in place of Irish newspapers. And that the indigenous papers like the Sunday Independent allow a self-loathing Biddy like Ruth Dudley Edwards slag off her country while waxing lyrical about Britain and her favourite bunch of misunderstood people, the Orange Order. Yeah, no-one hates the Brits like the Irish. :rolleyes:

Oh and by the way, they have dubbing in Spain for foreign films and programmes, so language isn't the obstacle to the Spanish enjoying Albert Square. You are of course correct about the standard of football.