Is Alex Bruce the ultimate mercenary? [Archive]

Dodge

21/02/2006, 10:55 AM

stickyjoe

21/02/2006, 10:59 AM

Without wanting to get into the usual debate that follows this topic, yes he is the ultimate mercenary and it makes me sick to think of him wearing the national team jersey :mad:

blobbyblob

21/02/2006, 11:11 AM

Hes honest. Better than picking us because we are the poorer team. Get over it. If Stan does one good thing in his tenure and gathers enough quality talent to supply us for the next 10 years of entertainment, they can come from greenland for all I care. They dont have to be able to recite Peig and have shamrock growing out of their hole to qualify and action speaks louder than accents.

Let me remind you of the some of the mercenaries as you put it responsible for the memories that we have had over the last 20 years.

Houghton
Aldridge
Sheedy
Cascarino
Townsend
McAteer - got us to a WC
Sheridan - Classic
Morris,
McCarthy,
Hughton,
Galvin,
Lawrenson
Holland
Breen
McLoughlin - got us to a WC

You take those names out of Irish football history over the last 20 years and come back and tell me that we'd have had half the pleasure. Once they pull on the green jersey and play with pride, I dont care if they are Ching Chong O Flaherty - They are Irish.

stickyjoe

21/02/2006, 11:26 AM

[QUOTE=blobbyblob]. If Stan does one good thing in his tenure and gathers enough quality talent to supply us for the next 10 years of entertainment, they can come from greenland for all I care. QUOTE]

alex bruce a quality talent.....ffs. we are well and truly fukced if thats the kind of quality talent staunton is gathering.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 11:49 AM

If Stan does one good thing in his tenure and gathers enough quality talent to supply us for the next 10 years of entertainment, they can come from greenland for all I care

Its not a ****ing club side FFS :rolleyes:

Oh and I wouldn't consider some of the ones you mentioned as mercenaries

FarBeag

21/02/2006, 12:02 PM

Its look's like we are really clutching at straws now.We need someone that will be an asset and improve the team but somehow I don't see Alex Bruce doing so.To answer the question yes he is the ultimate mercenary imo.Breen, McLoughlin, McCarthy, Sheridan are Irish by the way and there is no way you can put Bruce in the same league.

Macy

21/02/2006, 12:05 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/4662544.stm

"I am going to pick the Republic purely because I think they are a better team," said Bruce.

"That is no disrespect to Northern Ireland. I have still got a few things to sort out but hopefully I will be playing for the Republic soon."

This is getting ****ing ridiculous
Don't think it matters - you either accept mercenaries or you don't. Can't pick and choose "good" mercernaries over honest ones like Bruce.

Blobbyblob - not all that list are mercenaries. We don't have to have the debate again about foreign born not necessarily mercenaries do we?

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 12:24 PM

listen is bruce any good? i suppose the only thing you can say is that he has declared for us at a young age but maybe he's a lad who knows that he has as much chance of playing for england as our mate clinton.

mercenary wise there have been far worse butthe vast majority of your list up there i would not describe as mercenaries.

eirebhoy

21/02/2006, 12:28 PM

I don't think every foreign player that declares for us as 2nd choice is a mercenary. In fact, In this day and age I'd say its more down to just want to playing international football and making a name for themselves over filling their pockets. If I had a choice I wouldn't want the likes of Morrison or Bruce declaring for us but I wouldn't call them mercenaries.

blobbyblob

21/02/2006, 12:36 PM

mercenary n. (100%)
A person who is paid to serve with armed forces other than those of the state of which he is a national.

I beg to differ. With the definition as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, there is no middle ground. Everyone of the players listed qualify either

1) as a mercenary having been born on foreign soil and holders of a non irish passport
or
2) cannot be classed as a mercenary by the fact that they hold an Irish passport(as does Alex Best) and as such has a legitimate right to represent his nation(money or not)

So if these statements/terms are to be bandied about, lets be clear as to what they mean. And yes, if you want to talk about mercenaries, the nationality question is focal to that arguement.

The calibre of the player concerned does not lessen his right to play for his country

ThatGuy

21/02/2006, 12:42 PM

Personally I don't really blame the players or have any bad feelings towards them over declaring for Ireland, they are doing what is best for their careers (and earning potential).

My anger lies with the team management and the FAI for allowing these people to play for Ireland.

I would be elegible to play for the US, and if I was a pro footballer with no prospect of playing for Ireland and they were interested, I would play for them. I don't consider myself even 0.001% American, I don't think that I should be allowed to and I don't think that they should accept the likes of me declaring for them, but if I could I would.

Roverstillidie

21/02/2006, 12:43 PM

mercenary n. (100%)
A person who is paid to serve with armed forces other than those of the state of which he is a national.

I beg to differ.

sport is war by other means.

you have just circularly argued yourself wrong :D

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 12:50 PM

I think there have only been a few true and utter mercenaries to play for us (that i can remember) but the ultimate one would have to be Paul Butler now of Wolves.

No Irish blood whatsoever, got his passport from his Irish Wife. Played one game for us in a friendly 3-2 win against the Czechs (remember Babb's overhead?!!!). He had a mare and was taken off at half time and announced months later that if he didnt get picked again he was declaring for Wales!!

Now thats a mercenary, but lads like him in the Irish set up, I dunno. You can't read minds so until someone comes out with **** like that you'll never really know!

Babb's overhead kick though-that lad was great.

Jerry The Saint

21/02/2006, 1:41 PM

2) cannot be classed as a mercenary by the fact that they hold an Irish passport(as does Alex Best) and as such has a legitimate right to represent his nation(money or not)

I don't think Bestie's widow is the answer to our problems. I'd rather have Big Dotsy back in the squad.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 1:47 PM

Oh and BTW Brucedoens't have an Irish passport. He's "trying to sort it"

blobbyblob

21/02/2006, 1:58 PM

Well, Im right and your wrong so I dont care.

BLAH BLAH BLAH, IM NOT LISTENING TO YOU

blobbyblob

21/02/2006, 2:00 PM

I don't think Bestie's widow is the answer to our problems. I'd rather have Big Dotsy back in the squad.

Ah Fupp, I thought we were talking about Alex Best.

Alex Bruce is a mercenary alright. No doubt about it.

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 2:03 PM

if steve bruces dad was irish born (which i am pretty sure he is) then alex shouldnt have any problems getting his passport

NeilMcD

21/02/2006, 2:09 PM

My understanding of this is That Steve Bruce;s father as in Alex Bruce's father was born in Tyrone and that is how he qualifies for us. I think its a bit much when you are taking advantage of 2 rules. I think Matt Holland qualified this way, not sure on that and also possibley Alan Kernaghan.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 2:10 PM

if steve bruces dad was irish born (which i am pretty sure he is) then alex shouldnt have any problems getting his passport
Steve Bruce's mother was born in Co. Down. And the point is he's "trying to sort it". If he wasn't a footballer he wouldn't be trying to sort out an Irish passport

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 2:19 PM

so thats obviously where the northern ireland thing comes from-this has been discussed here before with regards to people being born in the north wanting to play for us-i would say most of us here wouldnt have any issues with this at all...??

yeah same deal with kernaghan though he did actually play for the north at some level

joeSoap

21/02/2006, 2:22 PM

To answer the question yes he is the ultimate mercenary imo.Breen, McLoughlin, McCarthy, Sheridan are Irish by the way and there is no way you can put Bruce in the same league.

Gary Breen: Born London, December 12th 1973
Alan McLoughlin: Born Swindon April 20th 1967
Mick McCarthy: Born Barnsley February 7th 1959
John Sheridan: Born Stretford October 1st 1964

Where in Ireland are London, Swindon, Barnsley and Stretford??

If we accepted the above through the parent / grandparent / great grandparent rule, then Alex Bruce is more than entitled to be considered, regardless of his ability. That is for Staunton and Robson to decide. Since when could we afford to be choosy anyway? :confused:

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 2:24 PM

Steve Bruce's mother was born in Co. Down. And the point is he's "trying to sort it". If he wasn't a footballer he wouldn't be trying to sort out an Irish passport

Not a fan of Alex then are we?? I agree with what you're saying but I mean what can we do? I think what happens with these lads is that if they shine for us, people will take to them more, like Holland, morrisson etc. otherwise they'll just end up on the reject heap like Butler and Macken,and from what Ive seen of Bruce thats his likely destination.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 2:25 PM

Since when could we afford to be choosy anyway? :confused:
1922?

joeSoap

21/02/2006, 2:30 PM

Steve Bruce's mother was born in Co. Down. And the point is he's "trying to sort it". If he wasn't a footballer he wouldn't be trying to sort out an Irish passport
She was born in Tyrone actually, and if it was a better, higher profile footballer, you'd probably be helping him sort his passport out, so why not just admit that your gripe is cos he's only an average Joe trying to get on the bandwagon.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 2:31 PM

Not a fan of Alex then are we?? I agree with what you're saying but I mean what can we do? I think what happens with these lads is that if they shine for us, people will take to them more, like Holland, morrisson etc. otherwise they'll just end up on the reject heap like Butler and Macken,and from what Ive seen of Bruce thats his likely destination.
Its nothing to do with his football ability. I've never seen him play. Its this whole ****ing thing that annoys the hell out of me. As I've stressed 100s of times here, I have absolutely no problem with 2g or even 3g Irish playing for their country, and seeing that as the honour it is. What I do have a huge problem with is players "declaring" for Ireland just to play international football and advance teir own club careers. I honestly can't support an Irish team made up of these types

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 2:31 PM

Dodge

21/02/2006, 2:33 PM

She was born in Tyrone actually, and if it was a better, higher profile footballer, you'd probably be helping him sort his passport out, so why not just admit that your gripe is cos he's only an average Joe trying to get on the bandwagon.
How would I help him out with his passport? :rolleyes: Anyway I think you'll find I've been very consistent on this issue. I've never even seen Bruce play

joeSoap

21/02/2006, 2:34 PM

FarBeag

21/02/2006, 2:53 PM

Gary Breen: Born London, December 12th 1973
Alan McLoughlin: Born Swindon April 20th 1967
Mick McCarthy: Born Barnsley February 7th 1959
John Sheridan: Born Stretford October 1st 1964

Where in Ireland are London, Swindon, Barnsley and Stretford??

If we accepted the above through the parent / grandparent / great grandparent rule, then Alex Bruce is more than entitled to be considered, regardless of his ability. That is for Staunton and Robson to decide. Since when could we afford to be choosy anyway? :confused:

Look mate, I am not going to get into this 'made in Ireland ' debate again but the guys I made reference to are all second generation Irishmen and made their choice to play for Ireland in the same way people born there made /make there’s. They did it out of pride, without pressure and not because they saw it as an opportunity to put themselves in the shop window.Alex Bruce is a totally different kettle of fish and in my opinion and want what the other guys didnt ''a chance to play International football'' knowing he has fcuk all chance of playing for the country of his birth and does not want to play with the team he has more connections with NI.

Tell me what make’s him so different from his dad who never had the inclination to play for us...If you don’t care who play's for us, that’s your choice and the best of luck to you but I do.

as_i_say

21/02/2006, 2:59 PM

You can't blame a guy for trying to better himself, and if this is a way of doing it, then so be it. He can declare for who ever he is eligible for, thats his human right. He's not guaranteed to be picked however, but if he is, then your gripe should be with the management, not the player.

this is totally true but you cant expect there to be some people who are passionate about irish international football not to be wary about the likes of him.

The granny rule is just part of our make up and always will be so what can you do? TBH I cant see Bruce ever getting a look in anytime soon but who knows-what age is he anyway?

Bald Student

21/02/2006, 3:14 PM

How would I help him out with his passport?They have homosexual marraige in Britain now.

Hither green

21/02/2006, 3:31 PM

I think there have only been a few true and utter mercenaries to play for us (that i can remember) but the ultimate one would have to be Paul Butler now of Wolves.

No Irish blood whatsoever, got his passport from his Irish Wife. Played one game for us in a friendly 3-2 win against the Czechs (remember Babb's overhead?!!!). He had a mare and was taken off at half time and announced months later that if he didnt get picked again he was declaring for Wales!

Tony Cascarino. In fairness to Butler at least he didn't write a book about it, adding to the whole "you just have to drink a pint of Guinness to qualify" mockery.

klein4

21/02/2006, 3:46 PM

This is the managements fault for being as subtle as a sledgehammer about the whole "Granny Rule" from day one. Its embarrassing. We have had very successful underage teams in the last few years so we shouldnt be lettin these oppurtunists play for us.

Dodge

21/02/2006, 3:52 PM

They have homosexual marraige in Britain now.
Still wouldn't entitle him to a passport :p

And to answer JoeSoap, of course I'm more unhappy with the FAI than with Bruce.

Bald Student

21/02/2006, 3:56 PM

Hither green

21/02/2006, 4:02 PM

Still wouldn't entitle him to a passport

To be honest I hadn't seriously looked into it. It's good to hear that there are fans like yourself out there exploring everything they can do to help the team.

Yes, you could marry Ronaldo and get him into the team, he is afterall currently feeling unloved and we'll take anyone :D

dynamo kerry

21/02/2006, 6:10 PM

Babb's overhead kick though-that lad was great.

legend alright. my seat was level with the goal when he kicked it. nearly choked on my coke

pete

21/02/2006, 8:40 PM

Its nothing to do with his football ability. I've never seen him play. Its this whole ****ing thing that annoys the hell out of me. As I've stressed 100s of times here, I have absolutely no problem with 2g or even 3g Irish playing for their country, and seeing that as the honour it is.

This is the real issue to debate here. Anyone bringing up the 2g or 3g stuff is IMO off topic.

If you are irish you play for Ireland. There should be no decision to make - if you have to think about it then you are not irish. Just to be clear - a 2 or 3g person can have dual nationality but when the offer comes around it should not require a decision as he should know already.

:( :( :(

gustavo

21/02/2006, 9:00 PM

Exactly Pete if Bruce had said " i have always wanted to play for Ireland since i was a child and it will be with immense pride that i put on the Irish jersey for the first time" rather than "I am going to pick the Republic purely because I think they are a better team" there would be no issue at all.

pete

21/02/2006, 9:37 PM

I was just looking at the last Maderia Cup winning squad & Keith Keane (Luton Town) & Darren O'Dea (Celtic) are not included in sweden squad. Looks like the last merecenary has taken their positions?

I couldn't find info on Keane (FAi.ie sh!te) but can see that O'Dea has put in the effort to at least play at U18. IMO this is a big issue of parachuting mercenaries into the more high profile U21 & senior squads.

Just because some players in the past were mercenaries doesn't make it right to continue the practice.

tricky_colour

21/02/2006, 11:50 PM

This is the real issue to debate here. Anyone bringing up the 2g or 3g stuff is IMO off topic.

If you are irish you play for Ireland. There should be no decision to make - if you have to think about it then you are not irish. Just to be clear - a 2 or 3g person can have dual nationality but when the offer comes around it should not require a decision as he should know already.

I think you have to accept that some people do have a mixed nationality
lets say for example that you have grandparents who are English,
Irish, Scottish and Welsh and you were born on a cruise ship in international
waters (and some people have a lot more complex circumstances than that), they do have a decision to make.
With the advent of cloning and surogate mothers things could get even more
complicated!
I expect if most people traced their family tree back far enough they would
be in for a surprise or too, apparently most people in Ireland can't do
that very far because most of the records were lost in a fire :rolleyes:
Also you get some people who are "100%" Irish who are not particularly
keen (no pun intended ;) ) on playing for their country anyway.

Obviously we don't want any Tom Dick or Harry playing for Ireland (especially
if they are shiite) but some people do have a decision to make so I think you
should look on it as a compliment if they choose Ireland.

Anyhow as I understand it he is a right back and has just played 3 Premiership
games so I think Finnan, Carr, O'Brien and Kelly will be a tad ahead of him in the pecking order, and quite frankly he would have more chance of making the
squad if he declared for England, however he qualifies and if he is good
enough I have no problem with him if he is selected.

Feech

21/02/2006, 11:51 PM

McCarthy Irish? Don't make me laugh - he's said in interviews that he was English till he was in his 3rd decade in this world...

The Legend

22/02/2006, 12:21 AM

All i can say is shame Stevie Bruce didnt declare during his prime!

Clipper

22/02/2006, 2:05 AM

As far as I remember Steve Bruce tried to declare for us, but had an under age cap for England so wasn't eligible.

Plastic Paddy

22/02/2006, 5:02 AM

McCarthy Irish? Don't make me laugh - he's said in interviews that he was English till he was in his 3rd decade in this world...

Sources?

What utter nonsense. He captained and managed his country and still the likes of you won't accept him as Irish. Disgraceful. :mad:

:ball: PP

Den Perry

22/02/2006, 7:20 AM

Argh. I believe there is a difference between grabbing a granny and having an irish parent. I dont know for sure about Mcloughlin or sheridan but mccarthy and breen have irish fathers and breen in particular was brought up to be irish-going to bogball games etc.

IMO You cannot compare the likes of Kilbane, Breen, David Connolly, Mick mccarthy with Alex Bruce, Matt Holland or Clinton Morrisson

Sheridan's parents came from Ballymun, and he played underage all yhe way up for Ire. No doubting that he is Irish

Den Perry

22/02/2006, 7:22 AM

They have homosexual marraige in Britain now.

ha! thats the way forward. If some of you love the team as much as you claim......

Hither green

22/02/2006, 9:27 AM

Obviously we don't want any Tom Dick or Harry playing for Ireland (especially if they are shiite) but some people do have a decision to make so I think you should look on it as a compliment if they choose Ireland.

I've no problem with players having to make a decision, I've a problem with those not able to make a decision or admit to making that decision for dubious reasons. Those that play for us because their first choice, england, aren’t interested and they want to further their careers playing international football! Those like Bruce who pick which country to play for because one is better than the other! Any of those players that we have to cajole or bribe to play for us, the likes of Nolan for example!

I was reading about the young Fulham lad, Michael Timlin, in this week’s Irish Post. Born in London but always want to play for Ireland, in fact turned down a call to play for the english U17 team, that’s what we need more of!