Dublin Groundshare Debate [Archive]

wws

15/02/2006, 1:28 PM

thanks for that analyses, interesting points but your central premise of the current financial situation of shelbourne i presume is guesswork? If you know that for a fact, fair enough but somehow I doubt Ollie and co would be divulging the exact nature of how they're carrying the debts / position with regard to their asset (the tolka lease) to anyone.

The respective values of Richmond Park and Dalymount is also guesswork. Needless to say niether club will get anywhere near their expectations and dreams - developers are slightly better at this game than loi football boards.

The moves are afoot - I suspect the fans will oppose it but the boards will welcome the fai intervention -

wws

15/02/2006, 2:42 PM

My premise as regards Shels is, you are correct, largely guesswork and hearsay. I would still bet my shirt on being right though.

Dalymount Park has three values. One is based upon it remaining as a soccer stadium, one is based upon a straight sale for development but with existing zoning and one is based upon a sale contingent on a rezoning.

The value as a stadium is pretty low. The value as a straight sale for development but without rezoning is very very very substantial (it surprised me to be honest) and its value after rezoning is pretty close to breathtaking. Our advice on this is highly reliable and trustworthy.

I cannot guess what will happen in the end, who can, but any strong-arm stuff being pulled on Bohs is likely to prove counterproductive. There will be no bargains for the FAI or Ollie Byrne, rest assured. Furthermore, in the case of Bohs, yes our board have been asked to go ahead and talk to both the FAI and Shels and if they have a deal to bring to the membership they will. Then the membership will decide, its as simple as that in our case.

just on values of the various assets - its in the interest of the bohs and pats board to talk up their asset. As you say its their main position of strength as this pans out. Pats have an equally astronomical valuation of their assets (we know this from the rebuff to several millionaire investors who wanted to buy into the club but baulked at the idea when given the valuations). How much each club is capable of realising their estimated value is up in the air though

Roverstillidie

15/02/2006, 3:11 PM

assuming shels are spending money they dont have on the basis of selling their lease to tolka in the future to clear debts, if that goes, they would have to live closer to their means, so they wouldnt be able to attract the players?

Roverstillidie

15/02/2006, 4:23 PM

I very much do make that assumption. However it would be a mistake to take that further and assume that to mean they will come out of Tolka with nothing. I fully expect Shels to leave Tolka with a reasonable few million in their pocket, even after they pay off the (assumed) amounts they have raised against their lease. If they move into Tallaght I can see them keeping the bulk of that money. If they move into Dalymount half or more than half of that will have to go to Bohs as compensation for us giving them a half share (even if they gave us the lot it would still be a bad deal for Bohs in my opinion) of the ground.

The implications to Rovers are not very positive. In short I would expect Shels budget to still dwarf Rovers and with the Irish public being the way they are I don't see Rovers history in the area counting for much when it comes to picking up the locals as loyal fans. You really don't want Shels in Tallaght. I don't say that as a Bohs fan rubbing it in, but think about it for the moment. You are trying to build again from the bottom up while Shels arrive in with all the fancy players. If you think local loyalty will compensate for that then I think you are making a grave error. That would only count if all thing were equal and in such a scenario that would certainly not be the case. Shels could easily become "The" Tallaght team. Watch out!

hard to disagree with any of that, but the assumption is that by the time anyone comes to join us, we will have strong enough roots, many of them already in place (underage sides, tallaght it scholarships, basketball etc). we have no real say in groundsharing, but you can be bloody sure we will try and ensure the ground is associated with Rovers in the public's eye.

WeAreRovers

15/02/2006, 4:28 PM

The implications to Rovers are not very positive. In short I would expect Shels budget to still dwarf Rovers and with the Irish public being the way they are I don't see Rovers history in the area counting for much when it comes to picking up the locals as loyal fans. You really don't want Shels in Tallaght. I don't say that as a Bohs fan rubbing it in, but think about it for the moment. You are trying to build again from the bottom up while Shels arrive in with all the fancy players. If you think local loyalty will compensate for that then I think you are making a grave error. That would only count if all thing were equal and in such a scenario that would certainly not be the case. Shels could easily become "The" Tallaght team. Watch out!

Don't disagree with that analysis. We would have little problem with Pats moving in but Shels would be a whole different kettle of fag-smugglers.

The bright spot for us is that we're already well-established in Tallaght and will be in there a good few years before any other senior side. But we would have to put a successful team on the pitch. And therein lies the rub........

KOH

Anto McC

15/02/2006, 6:23 PM

I am a Bohs fan and Shels are looking for a room at OUR Inn. And WAR is a Rovers fan who is well aware that if Bohs put up the "no vacancies" sign then Shels will be slithering their way to Tallaght looking for room and board at his place.

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Mod Edit - Junk Removed from post - james
Anto - Cop on a small bit please.

Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?
Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

Anto McC

15/02/2006, 6:30 PM

I'd say the other Shels fans on this site are just sitting back (like myself) and laughing at other eL fans getting their Tickers in a Nist over Oily and $h€l$

Yeah,thats pretty much it :D

You all sing your songs about "no one like us,we dont care........" but at the end of the day,Shels are the team everyone in the league,loves to hate(it's jealousy really) and the majority of us Shels fans love it,i used to be different but now,i love it :D

"F*ck them all,f*ck them all,
the long and the short and the small,
cos we are the Shelbourne and we are the best,
cos we are the Shelbourne so f*ck all the rest,
f*ck them all"

chippie0001

15/02/2006, 6:34 PM

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Tallaght is for the homeless and the Junkies,as far as im concerned thats for certain but Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?

Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

Tell me why we need this groundshare more than you? You have sold the lease on Tolka and are moving. We own our own stadium. For this to go through it needs a 75% majority or Bohs members so don't hold your breath for any long time on that one.

pete

15/02/2006, 6:48 PM

Thread closed - some people unable to debate

James

16/02/2006, 10:06 AM

I'm reopening this thread purely because I feel its probably the most important EL issue at the moment and quite alot of ppl here had decent points to debate on it.

I am keeping a close eye on it though, and any more muppetry will be moved and those guilty posters will be warned and banned as necessary.

james

Dodge

16/02/2006, 10:32 AM

Good decision James. Hopefully the idiots will stay out.

Speaking as a Pats fan I'm petrified about the next season or two. The only hope I have is the fact the FAI and/or givernment never get anything done (certainly in sporting areas). Done at Richmond Park lat night there wasa fair amount of work going on and its' costing 3/4 million. Chances are they wouldn't spend that if they're looking to move to tallaght next year...

wws

16/02/2006, 10:34 AM

AS A PATS FAN I GOT THE OPPOSITE IMPRESSION dodge

last night the ground was an even bigger tip than usual (if thats possible!)

I see it as deliberate to get ppl to think moving is a great idea. Richmond is a bomb site at the moment

wws

16/02/2006, 10:36 AM

oh and btw niether the govt/the fai or the pats board would have any hesitation spending that 3/4 mill on richmond (its actually about .5m) and knowing full well that a sale and move was a year or two away. That fund is site specific and the waste involved is par for the course with these jokers

Dodge

16/02/2006, 10:43 AM

As I said wws, I'm clutching at straws....

Dricky

16/02/2006, 10:56 AM

I think it's very interesting that the hate for some clubs just piles through in their responses.
I think Bohs have the upper hand here because, worst comes to worst they have land they can fall back on. It is a huge area of land at that you could almost fit two turners crosses there. So on that they could, if it all went wrong, sell half the land and build a 10,000.00 seater stadium. Now that is an IF, worst case scenario. Their debt, in terms of football is a short term and as the biggest creditor was the revenue I believe. agreement has been reached there.

So Bohs have an asset without a charge on it, although it is not a liquid asset it is still a strong asset regardless of rezoning.
Shels have a man who would do anything for Shels, if he thought he could set up on his own without crippling Shels he would. There is no shels fan can deny that, if the do I would ask them to prove it, as Ollie has already proven his love for his club. Shels need this to ensure they are not left behind in several areas squad training ticket sales and other revenues.

Having to rent, having no home, not being able to keep their fan base/ or expand it (which you will agree is vital for all clubs). Having training areas and facilities that can be relied upon for the next 15-20 years, lets be honest this is the only way clubs will grow and survive, living beyond your means is history for Irish football. The Tax man is on to it, the banks are on to it and the FAI is on to it. Ollie doesn't want to move to the sticks land is too expensive in the City.

Bohs will be better with the money received but be under no illusion it doesn't have to be with Shels. They own a huge amount of land at Dayler.
Shels have a time frame they must stick too or it could be a very lean time for them. Ollie know that TV rights pay and Ads pay if he has no input into either and should Bohs deal fall through then without a major invester how could they survive?

bohs til i die

16/02/2006, 11:53 AM

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Mod Edit - Junk Removed from post - james
Anto - Cop on a small bit please.

Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?
Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

And what is Shelbourne's plan B?

We dont need the groundshare. We have multiple options that will be explored and investigated to see what is in our best interests.

Shels are in the weakest position of any of the Big 4 as Pats have Richmond, Rovers have Tallaght and Bohs own Dalymount Park.

Réiteoir

16/02/2006, 11:59 AM

Anto, make the most of it while you can. It will all be over soon enough. Btw, if I were you I would try to be a lot nicer, It might make the likes of me less inclined to vote Shels out of business.

same here

thomas

16/02/2006, 4:13 PM

I certainly think Rovers, Bohs and Pats should turn away john delaneys little scheme and ask ollie to move up to fingal. That way everyone is happy.

pete

16/02/2006, 5:04 PM

Da Real Rover

16/02/2006, 6:45 PM

What ever happened to the shels to Donabate option?
I think Pats should stay at Inchicore no matter what, thats their home thats their identity, something money cant buy is the years long tradition in their HOME.
Shams must not let anyone enter Tallaght with them, if they are to survive they cannot cope with the increase competition of another more successfull Eircom league club in Tallaght.
Did Oily ever considering locating Shels outside the capital, to an untapped market?

Bald Student

16/02/2006, 6:49 PM

What ever happened to the shels to Donabate option?If I remember right, at the time that was the only realistic option because it would allow all of Shels' activities to be on the one site. A city centre stadium would have been unsuitable for this and anyone who tought otherwise was a luddite.

Now it seems that a city centre stadium is the only realistic option and anyone who thinks otherwise is a luddite.

desaintsno.12

16/02/2006, 6:54 PM

i just can't see any big money bein spent on richmond park. definitly not in the next 7-10 yrs. like pete said two more stands would make it ten times better. but where does de money come from ?

Roverstillidie

16/02/2006, 7:10 PM

Shams must not let anyone enter Tallaght with them, if they are to survive they cannot cope with the increase competition of another more successfull Eircom league club in Tallaght.

i have no idea who these shams are, but seeing as Rovers are moving to Tallaght at some stage in the next 12 months ill answer.

"if they are to survive"? do you really think the club will fold now after all we've been through. bizarre

"another, more successful EL club"? there are none.

silly post.

Bald Student

16/02/2006, 7:27 PM

Rovers are moving to TallaghtNope, Rovers are staying in Sligo.

Get used to the new order of things.

Dodge

16/02/2006, 7:30 PM

1 9 2 8

16/02/2006, 7:47 PM

Nope, Rovers are staying in Sligo.

Get used to the new order of things.
POTM:D

anto eile

16/02/2006, 7:48 PM

The value as
A:a stadium is pretty low.
B: The value as a straight sale for development but without rezoning is very very very substantial (it surprised me to be honest)
C: value after rezoning is pretty close to breathtaking. Our advice on this is highly reliable and trustworthy.

i believe
A: roughly E2M
B: ?,a random guess says roughly E10M
C: roughly E60M

am i close?

anto eile

16/02/2006, 7:54 PM

Yeah,thats pretty much it :D

You all sing your songs about "no one like us,we dont care........" but at the end of the day,Shels are the team everyone in the league,loves to hate(it's jealousy really) and the majority of us Shels fans love it,i used to be different but now,i love it :D

"F*ck them all,f*ck them all,
the long and the short and the small,
cos we are the Shelbourne and we are the best,
cos we are the Shelbourne so f*ck all the rest,
f*ck them all"
most people dont give a toss about shels ,mostly because of your fans. of the 4 Dublin teams,your fans are the ones looked at with the most amusement.

pay attention here: dont confuse hate for your scumbag chief executive and thuggish dwarf of a manager for people actually thinking shels are important

regarding the groundshare. if i was a bohez member i wouldnt let ollie byrne near dalymount. worse case scenario, dalyer is sold,boez move elsewhere and build a new ground. how could that be a last-ditch fall-back plan if shels are in dalymount.
and would boez fans really trust ollie byrne? id give ollie a few years before he finds some underhand scheme to screw boez out of the rest of dalyer.
boez are in the strongest position. they dont need to help anyone. and even if theyre threatened with no further grants,surely thats illegal as theyre as entitled to grants as much as any other club?

id love to see boez say no to olliebourne but will reserve my hopes as i think that would mean The Fat One would turn his eyes towards Tallaght..and i would not like to share with shels i Tallaght at all.pats i wouldnt be concerned with though

chippie0001

16/02/2006, 7:58 PM

i believe
A: roughly E2M
B: ?,a random guess says roughly E10M
C: roughly E60M

am i close?

The last one yeah, the middle one no where near.

anto eile

16/02/2006, 8:06 PM

The last one yeah, the middle one no where near.
as for number 1, i think you posted that figure or something close enough to it a week or two ago.
what do you reckon the figure for B is then?

chippie0001

16/02/2006, 9:06 PM

as for number 1, i think you posted that figure or something close enough to it a week or two ago.
what do you reckon the figure for B is then?
No idea what its worth as a football stadium, in a way nothing as well no clubs makes any money. Not disagreeing with €2m as such. If sold now I reckon it would get half the value of it rezoned. The problem is we don't know what it would be worth rezoned. For example Albion who own the shopping centre would pay a lot more than some one who does not have raod frontage. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

TonyD

16/02/2006, 9:51 PM

Da Real Rover

17/02/2006, 8:35 AM

"if they are to survive"? do you really think the club will fold now after all we've been through. bizarre

"another, more successful EL club"? there are none.

silly post.
Its a proven fact that Irish people in general prefer to support winners and successfull teams than mediocre teams with an illustrious history and heritage. Look at the age demographics for Irish people supporting Premiersh!t teams, the older crowd 'support' Liverpool, then the 15-30s 'support' merchandise United while the new youngest Premiersh!t fan in Ireland 'supports' Chelsea regardless of the success of past Liverpool or merchandise united teams. Therefore if Shels move into Tallaght with Shams there will be a whole new young fan that will be won over by Shels success regardless of the roots Shams have in Tallaght, the illustrious history of the club or the efforts of the 400 club. Your right that the club wont die but it will be the second Tallaght team and will be forever wading through Mediocrity as Shels wipe up all the new supporters, Shams need those new supporters to grow and prosper as a club, they cant afford shels in Tallaght.

Jerry The Saint

17/02/2006, 9:14 AM

How much would it cost to turn Richmond Park into a comfortable ground like Turners Cross with covered seats? i.e. no €8m stands.

If you kept the existing stand & put in similar stands at the other ends would surely get it finsihed for €2m? 1000-1500 seats behind each goal & another 1000 oposite the main stand for 6000 capacity?

Why can't you be Chief Executive of the FAI? :(

The whole concept is very odd and it seems to be based around the following notion -

"Look, there's been plans for a new stadium in Tallaght for ages. When it's built we should put two teams in there to maximise the marketability potentiality. Genesis reckon it's a great idea"

"But what about the team that already has a stadium"

"They have to move"

"OK, but this new stadium must be pretty amazing to make them consider"

"Well it'll have one stand for the first few years but there are plans to eventually double capacity to 6,000. Oh, and they'll have to be careful not to make any noise at night-time or else the neighbours will complain"

"But their home ground already holds 6,000 - why on earth would they accept this?"

"If they don't we'll cut off all their funding and threaten to demote them to the First Division - CHECK. MATE!"

This nonsense wouldn't be too worrying if Pats had strong leadership during this critical time. As it is, we've been spending most of our energy trying to remove an ineffective CEO. :mad: As much as I hate to say it, you know that Ollie Byrne won't stand for Shelbourne getting a poor deal. If groundsharing has to happen, the teams that already have a ground should have more bargaining power, yet the way things are going it seems that Pats and Bohs are the clubs that stand to get the worst deal out of this.

Vitruvian Man

17/02/2006, 10:15 AM

On the Bohs/Shels deal.

If Ollie Byrne owned a run-down stadium Phibsborough worth 30-60 million depending on zoning but had cash flow probelms, and an average level of debt for an EL club, would he sell half this stadium for 5 million cash to Bohemians + a government funded re-build of his stadium.

If Bohemians insisted that there was no deal unless it could be proved that Shels didn't have more money in the bank than Bohs at move-in time and also insisted that Bohemians got a 50/50 split of any money Ollies swanky new stadium would generate - what would he say?

Dricky

17/02/2006, 10:31 AM

I think it's Ollie's Master plan to try to ruin Bohs once and for all, he buys in and then insists on selling his half of the grounds........ thus having his revenge....... it's all a big plot

wws

17/02/2006, 10:40 AM

Its more John Delaney pushing this as part of his grand plan - the worrying part is he seems to be well in with Ollie Byrne

chippie0001

17/02/2006, 10:56 AM

Its more John Delaney pushing this as part of his grand plan - the worrying part is he seems to be well in with Ollie Byrne
Yes but thankfully Delaney is an idiot, actually he is worse than that. He will make threats etc to Pats and Bohs as Rovers have little choice and well Shels just want a home and it seems anywhere will do. If Shels pony up the fair value of Dalymount I have no issue talking, however thats not what is on the table. Also anyone who thinks even if this is a good deal that 75% of the Bohs members will vote in favour are in la la land. Probably 50% will vote against as they hate Ollie no matter what the deal is. ;)

Dodge

17/02/2006, 11:01 AM

Did Bohs members vote to continue discussions with Ollie and Shels?

NY Hoop

17/02/2006, 11:03 AM

Pats MUST NOT move to Tallaght. I think and hope that the vast majority of Pats fans share this view. Apart from the tradition etc of Richmond, and the fact that we(more or less) own it, there is also the fact mentioned already that Rovers are likely to have quite a head start on any other team in Tallaght. Why should Pats give up their own ground, their own area, to be the second team in Tallaght ?. If Delaney and the FAI try to bully us into it with threats, or entice us with promises, they should be told in no uncertain terms to F(AI) Off. I would get too carried away with the money talk either. It's been mooted that part of any deal is that Pats would put money from the sale of Richmond into the development of Tallaght. I really don't see a scenario where Pats would be left with buckets of money to spend on their squad. Richmond could be a nice tidy little ground, with modest enough investment. OK, it'll never be the San Siro, but we'll never need it to be.

In my opinion, Rovers deserve Tallaght, to themselves. Pats should be left alone in Richmond. Bohs have Dalymount, whether they want to share it with Shels is up to them.

No To Groundsharing.

100% agree with every word. Also cant understand people who refer to Richmond as a dump. It has covered seating and terracing. If the inchicore end and the shed end were seated you would have a very suitable domestic ground. At the moment it has 1800 seats and could then have a total seated capacity of 3000? with terracing on the camc of 1000. That is adequate enough IMO.

Da real Rover your post makes no sense. Shels wouldnt wipe any fans up if they moved to the maracana. You should have seen tuesday where a relegated club brought more fans to their ground than they did. Says it all really.........

KOH

chippie0001

17/02/2006, 11:04 AM

Did Bohs members vote to continue discussions with Ollie and Shels?
There was no vote as such as its against rules. They agreed to let the board look at this option and report back when they had the basis of a deal so it could be discussed in full

wws

17/02/2006, 11:26 AM

i get the feeling cuffe and o'reilly or the bohs board are in favour and will try and twist the arm of the members any way possible

WeAreRovers

17/02/2006, 11:35 AM

i get the feeling cuffe and o'reilly or the bohs board are in favour and will try and twist the arm of the members any way possible

AFAIK they're gone to the great board in the sky along with your friend BJ O'Byrne and my best mate Tony Maguire.

I don't doubt for a minute that Bohs members will vote this down unless turkeys voting for Christmas suddenly becomes fashionable. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

KOH

chippie0001

17/02/2006, 11:37 AM

i get the feeling cuffe and o'reilly or the bohs board are in favour and will try and twist the arm of the members any way possible
Both Gerry and Felim are gone, and O'Reilly actually spoke against it very strongly. Gerry may be persauded to stay on but Felim is 100% gone. In my view Shels and the FAI are spreading rumours that are no where near the truth, in about 8 weeks or so I would guess we will all have a better picture of what is happening. Shels seem to give the impression its a done deal, and I may be wrong here, I am sure I will be quoted if I am, but I don't see this passing as it is currently on the table.

Dodge

17/02/2006, 11:43 AM

There was no vote as such as its against rules. They agreed to let the board look at this option and report back when they had the basis of a deal so it could be discussed in full
Not trying to be funny but if there was no vote, how could they stop it?

chippie0001

17/02/2006, 11:45 AM

Not trying to be funny but if there was no vote, how could they stop it?
In short what the board said was if the majority were against it under any circumstances they would not waste their time talking. However if the members were open to the concept depending on the deal they would continue. The members indicated their willingness to listen to the offer and then decide. If this is to happen, 2 votes will be required, one of which will need a 75% majority. Now I am off to see Ajax, enjoy your weekends. ;)

Roverstillidie

17/02/2006, 12:00 PM

Its a proven fact that Irish people in general prefer to support winners and successfull teams than mediocre teams with an illustrious history and heritage. Look at the age demographics for Irish people supporting Premiersh!t teams, the older crowd 'support' Liverpool, then the 15-30s 'support' merchandise United while the new youngest Premiersh!t fan in Ireland 'supports' Chelsea regardless of the success of past Liverpool or merchandise united teams. Therefore if Shels move into Tallaght with Shams there will be a whole new young fan that will be won over by Shels success regardless of the roots Shams have in Tallaght, the illustrious history of the club or the efforts of the 400 club. Your right that the club wont die but it will be the second Tallaght team and will be forever wading through Mediocrity as Shels wipe up all the new supporters, Shams need those new supporters to grow and prosper as a club, they cant afford shels in Tallaght.

shels have had tolka for about 15 years and havent made any significant dent into the local area. and this with their most successful side at a time when domestic football is on an up.

why would we be worried about them in tallaght after a headstart of nearly 10 years? we have the youth system out there. we have the training grounds there. there is the basketball side. not forgetting the scholarship scheme in tallaght it.

moving to tallaght would harm them much more than us. pats are at least on a luas line from their heartland.

unless that rant was an attempt to try and use the word 'shams' as often as possible in some attepmpt to cause friction in an important debate.

thomas

17/02/2006, 1:19 PM

The last one yeah, the middle one no where near.

I think I'll reiterate, if Bohs reject Shels offer I certainly think the 3 dublin clubs should be together in resisting a cushy deal for ollie. Fingal is more than adequete for their needs.

pete

17/02/2006, 1:29 PM

Why can't you be Chief Executive of the FAI? :(

Work hours would be lower & expense account would be bigger so i wouldn't turn it down.

The only reason City fans are thinking of move from Tuners Cross in the future is the ground is too tight & no options to build offices or bar at the location to bring in extra revenue. Aside from that i think eL clubs need to be more realistic with facilities & build economical seated covered stands. Some projects are too expensive for teams with 1000-2000 average crowds.