Spurs, Sol, & slander?

[deadman]

anyone see this in today's (wed) guardian

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,1704757,00.html

really worth a read, if, perhaps, not a comment on the specifics

careful now, libels etc ... down with that sort of thing

[Dodge]

Decent read alright but don't think the chant is rascist. Offensive certainly but if I was a Spurs fan I'd hate Campbell too

[seand]

The reference to hanging from a tree is clearly a reference to the lynching of blacks in the Deep South, and therefore racist. It was certainly a chant that pushed the envelope of acceptable behaviour. Its a big question though, where do you draw the line?

[finlma]

Thats a good article. There certainly is something worrying Sol and its a shame cause he's a great player and its really putting him off his game. Football fans in Britain can be very prejudiced and to be homophobic seems acceptible when really its every bit as bad as racism.

[pete]

Decent read alright but don't think the chant is rascist. Offensive certainly but if I was a Spurs fan I'd hate Campbell too

Its not nice but no one ever said football chants were nice anyway. Campbell left his contract expire & then signed for biggest rivals. Spurs fans are always going to single him out.

[Hulsey]

Its not nice but no one ever said football chants were nice anyway. Campbell left his contract expire & then signed for biggest rivals. Spurs fans are always going to single him out.
Yeah but there is singling out in a clever and funny manner, and there is that kind of bollicks. Its just plain disgusting.

[WeAreRovers]

Have to say I hated the article and thought there was nothing wrong with the chant. Hattenstone is consistently the worst columnist on the Guardian's sports pages.

He represents the smug, middle-class tossers who've taken over the game. His use of the fictional "Bob" to back up his argument was pathetic. "Bob's a lad and even he was shocked!" :rolleyes:

He even stooped to the "what about the kids" argument beloved of people who know nothing about football. It's also known as the Tommy Gorman argument.

From the worst to the best, here's yesterday's column by David Conn about the blatant corruption and greed at Newcastle United.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,1704798,00.html

This is important stuff unlike the complete irrelevancy about whatever chants the Spurs fans are aiming at Sol Campbell.

KOH

[NeilMcD]

So you are saying there is Nothing wrong with racist and homophobic chants.

[WeAreRovers]

So you are saying there is Nothing wrong with racist and homophobic chants.

I don't consider it to be homophobic and it's certainly not racist. It is funny though, which I thought was the point. :rolleyes:

As I pointed out in my previous post, there are huge problems with the game in England - gangsters running clubs, grassroots frozen out, a whole new generation lost to the game, the list goes on. Why bother wasting time over a chant aimed at a spoilt, treachourous multi-millionaire footballer?

It's the new fans like Hattenstone who would rather focus on chanting and other fan-related issues when the actual problems are in the boardrooms, Soho Square and Downing St. Very convenient for the Freddie Shepherds and Brian Barwicks of this world.

KOH

[finlma]

I don't consider it to be homophobic and it's certainly not racist.
KOH

The HIV remark is certainly in regards to the suggestions that Sol Campbell is gay.
Racism and homophobia should not be accepted in any circumstances.

[Karlos]

Expect nothing less from certain sections of Spurs support - their the same ones waiting for us each year on the seven sisters road.

He honoured his contract in full and then sought out better money and success, far from a lynching crime. His move across London has been more than justified in medals, something that's deemed accectable when someone moves from West Brom to United etc but lost on Spurs fans who actually still hold on to the notion that they are the biggest club in London on the verge of greatness.

Of course their entitled to hate him for signing for the rivals, no problems there but the mannor in which they have gone about it is not for the first time disgraceful.

Sol has consistantly shown the man he is when dealing with them - even refusing to celebrate Arsenal's unbeaten campaign on the pitch at White Hart Lane until all the fans were gone. I don't think I could have given them that grace. :)

[NeilMcD]

I think every club has their scum element and this is another example of it. I condemn these songs totally just like I would condemn any anti jewish songs sung at Spurs.

[NeilMcD]

I don't consider it to be homophobic and it's certainly not racist. It is funny though, which I thought was the point. :rolleyes:

KOH

I think the HIV remark and the Hanging from the Tress are in the song as homophobic and racist references.

[klein4]

why is a referance to HIV homophobic?
very ignorant and (ironically enough) homophobic remark there NeilMcD!!!

[Karlos]

I condemn these songs totally just like I would condemn any anti jewish songs sung at Spurs. I would agree with this in the case of obvious anti-jew chants however it is a slightly different scenario given the fact that Spurs fans themselves claim to be part of 'Martin Jol's yid army' and insert the word into 90% of their songs. The word in itself is obviously offensive but is being used by themselves to support & describe their team who are far from representative of the jewish community. This debate comes up often in arsenal fanzines considering that Arsenal themselves have a jewish and multi-cultured fan base. Some are against it totally and other including jewish fans don't see the co-relation between Spurs calling themselves the yid army with the jewish faith.

I suppose to use a dodgy analagy, it's like an Irish man going around telling everyone he's a 'paddy' and singing about being a 'paddy' and then getting offended when someone calls him paddy.

Just like at Arsenal there's fans at Tottenham who would find it offensive and others who don't and actively encourage the use of the word and they are from what I've witnessed and heard with my own ears in the majority. Spurs themselves as a club don't endorse that term or phrase as far as I'm aware.

I think it's a big jump from this to what I've read up above about Sol Campbell.

[NeilMcD]

Taken at face value its not, but if you knwo other chants by the same fans then it is a homophobic song. Taken literally and out of context it is not a homophobic song but I happen to know the background to this as do a lot of people.

[NeilMcD]

I would agree with this in the case of obvious anti-jew chants however it is a slightly different scenario given the fact that Spurs fans themselves claim to be part of 'Martin Jol's yid army' and insert the word into 90% of their songs. The word in itself is obviously offensive but is being used by themselves to support & describe their team who are far from representative of the jewish community. This debate comes up often in arsenal fanzines considering that Arsenal themselves have a jewish and multi-cultured fan base. Some are against it totally and other including jewish fans don't see the co-relation between Spurs calling themselves the yid army with the jewish faith.

I suppose to use a dodgy analagy, it's like an Irish man going around telling everyone he's a 'paddy' and singing about being a 'paddy' and then getting offended when someone calls him paddy.

Just like at Arsenal there's fans at Tottenham who would find it offensive and others who don't and actively encourage the use of the word and they are from what I've witnessed and heard with my own ears in the majority.

I think it's a big jump from this to what I've read up above about Sol Campbell.
#

Fair enough Karlos it was simply the Yid Army, but hissing to the sound of gas showers or Nazi salutes by oppositions goalkeepers have both taken place at White Hart Lane. All I am saying is no club is totally clean on this and no club is toally dirty on this issue. All clubs have their element of racists and scumbags and they need to be eradicated from the ground.

[klein4]

well the point I was tryin to make is that it is easy to find offence in most anything if you want to. how do we know hanging from a tree is a racist referance? have you ever seen the spurs team??? sounds like some oxbridge journo over analysing.

[Karlos]

#

Fair enough Karlos it was simply the Yid Army, but hissing to the sound of gas showers or Nazi salutes by oppositions goalkeepers have both taken place at White Hart Lane. All I am saying is no club is totally clean on this and no club is toally dirty on this issue. All clubs have their element of racists and scumbags and they need to be eradicated from the ground.

I'm not doubting that Neill and I do agree, any of the other stuff that is openly anti-jewish should not happen, simple and in my eyes the use of the word 'yid' should be removed from both the home and away fans chants at WHL. I have noticed it's use at Highbury has been significantly reduced over the last few years thanks to some excellent stewarding. :)

[Karlos]

how do we know hanging from a tree is a racist referance? have you ever seen the spurs team??? sounds like some oxbridge journo over analysing.

Well I've seen them hang burning effigy's of Sol Campbell on more than one occaission and while it mightn't be of racist motivation it does feel that way. It's pretty horific to witness and the songs indicate a desire to see the man dead. Not a pleasant picture and totally different from a humourous bit of banter signing. :o

[WeAreRovers]

well the point I was tryin to make is that it is easy to find offence in most anything if you want to. how do we know hanging from a tree is a racist referance? have you ever seen the spurs team??? sounds like some oxbridge journo over analysing.

Thank you Klien for seeing this whole farrago as the PC nonsense that it is.

As for Spurs calling themselves Yids, Cardiff sing Sheepshaggers about themselves. But again, so what? There's too many people looking to be offended at the slightest thing. This is football we're talking about FFS.

KOH

[NeilMcD]

well the point I was tryin to make is that it is easy to find offence in most anything if you want to. how do we know hanging from a tree is a racist referance? have you ever seen the spurs team??? sounds like some oxbridge journo over analysing.

The point you made was that I made a homophobic remark which I did not. I dont appreciated you saying that I made both an ignorant or a homophobic comment.


In addition just cause spurs have Black players does not mean that some of their supporters will not sing songs that are racist. I"ts like the argument I am not racist sure I have lots of black friends" The song the Spurs fans are singing about Sol Campbell is both racist and homophobic. I say this as a fan of spurs and I find it sickening that they are singing it. I say give the guy all the abuse in the world for leaving the club etc as that is part of football banter. But there is a line and in my view spurs fans have crossed it this time. But in addition lots of other clubs have similar elements to their support.

Finally I think it is too easy a get out for these racist chants to say you can take offense at anything. The natural conclusion of this thesis is that you would take offence and nothing.

[WeAreRovers]

The point you made was that I made a homophobic remark which I did not. I dont appreciated you saying that I made both an ignorant or a homophobic comment.


He was merely pointing out that a reference to HIV is not neccesarily homophobic and that your assumption that it was could equally be seen as homophobic. See?

And your reply rather proves his point. Political correctness screws you up - as you've just shown us. ;)

KOH

[NeilMcD]

Sorry this is the quote

"why is a referance to HIV homophobic?
very ignorant and (ironically enough) homophobic remark there NeilMcD"

he categorically states that it is an ignorant and homophobic remark by me. He does not state that it could be possibly be seen that way. If he did that would be ok. There is no element of doubt in his statement. It directly states that my remark was both Ignorant and homophobic.

Your quote above uses words like "not neccessarily homophobic and that it could equally be seen as homophobic. These phrases introduce an element of doubt which were lacking from Kleins original statement.

Also I would like you to prove that my reply screws me up.

[Plastic Paddy]

Yeah but there is singling out in a clever and funny manner, and there is that kind of bollicks. Its just plain disgusting.

I fully agree. Anyone who thinks it's in any way acceptable to chant such offensive and hateful material ("that's football", etc.) needs their heads examined. How can anyone honestly be an apologist in any shape or form for it or the scum who perpetrate it?

Disappointing to say the least. I thought foot.ie people were better than that...

:ball: PP

[Bald Student]

I tought 'hanging from a tree' was a reference to how Judas died. I can see the double meaning though.

It kind of puts the small problems in our league into perspective when you compare it to the reason Shamrock Rovers were fined on their last trip to Belfield.

[klein4]

Sorry this is the quote

"why is a referance to HIV homophobic?
very ignorant and (ironically enough) homophobic remark there NeilMcD"

he categorically states that it is an ignorant and homophobic remark by me. He does not state that it could be possibly be seen that way. If he did that would be ok. There is no element of doubt in his statement. It directly states that my remark was both Ignorant and homophobic.

Your quote above uses words like "not neccessarily homophobic and that it could equally be seen as homophobic. These phrases introduce an element of doubt which were lacking from Kleins original statement.

Also I would like you to prove that my reply screws me up.

a lot of conservative thought would feel that a)hiv only affects gay people and b) it is somehow a punishment from god for immoral lifestyle. so by you saying a referance to HIV is homophobic(therefore making the jump that hiv = gay) you are in fact perpetrating this right wing myth. seeing as the opinion is homophobic(anti gay) and borne out of ignorance(that hiv is a gay disease) therefore it is safe to say your post is both.

[NeilMcD]

But you have failed to realise that the people who are singing the song are the ones who are joining the HIV with Gay people. As I said the song on its own would not be homophobic. But knowing the background and the constant rumours and chants sung by the Spurs fan in his direction. It is safe to assume that the Spurs fans are falling into the conservative and right wing though that you talk about.


One simple reference to HIV is not homophobic but as part of a barrage of abuse and songs sung to Sol Campbell it is.

I would like you to withdraw the statement that my post is both homophobic and ignorant.

[klein4]

No. You havent said anything other than a wink wink nudge nudge I know what the song is really about spiel which doesnt really disprove what I said about your homophobic and ignorant post.

[NeilMcD]

Klein, you are on seriously dodgy ground posting that my post is homophobic and ignorant.

The facts are that a number of spurs fans sing songs about Sol Campbell which allege that he is gay. It is one of the main subjects of many of their songs, this and the fact that they allege he is a judas for walking out on the club. In addition to this when they start singing songs about him HIV this is related to the fact that they feel that he is gay. This is not my logic. That is the logic of the fans who are singing.

If The song was sung in isolation and was not connected to previous songs well then it would not be homophobic. However it is part of a smear campaign against Sol Campbell and it is also part of their ignorant and right wing views of the origins of the HIV virus.

[klein4]

please refrain from the veiled threats.:mad:
I have already explained (and roverstilidie simplified it even further for you) that the logic I am using about your post is the same as the logic you (and mr. guardian journo) are using about the song. if you choose to be too literal minded to understand that than it aint my problem.

[NeilMcD]

Klein you are missing the point. My post is in isolation. I have not made any other posts on this site about HIV or gay issues. The Spurs fans however have sung many many anti gay and homophobic songs about Sol Campbell. So in that context I think it is fair to allege that the new addition to their songs can be seen as homophobic. As I said you are looking at the lyrics of the song in isolation and saying that mentioning HIV is not necessarily a gay issue which is correct. However when it is added to a catalogue of other anti Gay songs it can be seen as a homophobic issue.

[Poor Student]

Neil McD is perefectly entitled to view it as a homophobic statement as he is identifying the sentiments and thoughts of those singing it. Drop it now Klein, that's a horrible accusation to throw at a poster in error. You've been warned.

[sullanefc]

As I pointed out in my previous post, there are huge problems with the game in England - gangsters running clubs, grassroots frozen out, a whole new generation lost to the game, the list goes on.


Don't want to go off topic - but these are not just problems in England. EL anyone??

[klein4]

read the posts and try reach a conclusion from what you read.
dont read them and try get them to fit to the conclusion you have already reached.:rolleyes:

[finlma]

Put your handbags away lads.

Its not a nice chant, simple as that. No need for the accusations and disecting of people's comments.

[NeilMcD]

Finlma, I agree with you but I am also entitled to defend myself If somebody makes serious allegations against me on this forum.

[WeAreRovers]

Neil McD is perefectly entitled to view it as a homophobic statement as he is identifying the sentiments and thoughts of those singing it. Drop it now Klein, that's a horrible accusation to throw at a poster in error. You've been warned.

In fairness to Klein, he was merely pointing out how over-sensitive PC types can get themselves in a muddle.

It's perfectly reasonable for me or anyone else NOT to be offended by the chant just as it's reasonable for others to be offended.

Warning Klein for thinking logically is crazy IMO. This is a forum for exchanging views and opinions. Or is it?

KOH

[NeilMcD]

No, We are rovers he did not merely point that out.

He stated that my post was ignorant and homophobic.

Indeed this forum is for exchanging views and opinions but it is not here for posters to make serious allegations against a fellow poster.

[klein4]

sorry called ya roverstilidie earlier.
but thats twice now youve summed up in one post what i was tryin to say in 5!
neil I am sure you are neither a racist or a homophobe...let it go.

[Tired&Emotional]

The HIV remark is certainly in regards to the suggestions that Sol Campbell is gay.
Racism and homophobia should not be accepted in any circumstances.

Forgive me if I'm missing something but how does this imply he's gay?
Is this based on the assumption that the fans are smallminded & think that if someone has AIDS they must be gay:confused:

[NeilMcD]

No they already sing songs that he is gay and this is in addition to that. I think its pretty safe to assume that they are smill minded and do see a direct connection between been gay and having HIV.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Just to illustrate how ignorant assuming HIV is a gay disease only anymore is that recently, In Ireland, the fastest growth in cases of diagnosed HIV was among promiscuous men and women who are heterosexual.

[NeilMcD]

Could not agree more Colldge Till I Die, you gotta be careful out there.

However this is just an off point more about stats rather than HIV. Fastest growth is one of these quotes that is use a lot. The reason something is the fastest growth is pretty simple

If you have 2 people and it jumps to 4 that is 100 per cent growth

however ifyou have 2000 and it justmps to 2500 that is only 25 per cent growth. That would not stop the papers saying that example A had faster growth. Just an aside there.

[Aldini98]

By all accounts, Sol and Freddie were an item but Freddie is now with Jose Antonio........

[Poor Student]

Warning Klein for thinking logically is crazy IMO. This is a forum for exchanging views and opinions. Or is it?

KOH

I don't think he's been fair to Neil at all in the way he tried to make his point. The primary aim of this specific forum is to discuss football. If there's a wider issue here in feeling there is too much political corectness then take it to the current affairs forum rather than twisting a man's words and practising sophistry.

[finlma]

Forgive me if I'm missing something but how does this imply he's gay?
Is this based on the assumption that the fans are smallminded & think that if someone has AIDS they must be gay:confused:

No - its not. Rumours have been rife for years that Sol Campbell is gay and Spurs fans always sing songs about it.

The HIV jibe is obviously in reference to the gay accusation.

Clear things up for you? Don't just try to start an argument for the sake of it please.

[Karlos]

By all accounts, Sol and Freddie were an item but Freddie is now with Jose Antonio........

Must be true so :rolleyes: :mad:

[klein4]

I don't think he's been fair to Neil at all in the way he tried to make his point. The primary aim of this specific forum is to discuss football. If there's a wider issue here in feeling there is too much political corectness then take it to the current affairs forum rather than twisting a man's words and practising sophistry.

yes. and we were discussing the topic of the thread.it was neil himself who chose to turn it into a thread about himself. you jumped in missing the point completely.(did you even read the original article?) its not being unfair on anyone to make the same assumptions about something they posted as they are doing about something else. and it is a totally legitamate way of making a point. why should everything be dumbed down for not very bright people to understand and not take offence to? I understand you cant have people making slanderous accusations or starting rows for the sake of it but in this case I wasnt(if you read the posts) and I think you were totally wrong.

[Tired&Emotional]

Clear things up for you? Don't just try to start an argument for the sake of it please.


What?!! Are you for real??!! You obviously didn't read my apology if i had missed something!

Get off you highhorse - it wasn't my intention to "start an argument for the sake of it" - and certainly won't take direction from you, pal!