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max power
07/02/2006, 4:30 PM
he is celebrating his 80th birthday on thursday, i have to say he has been one of my favourite politicians growing up, i've always thought he has had the peoples best interest at heart no matter what choices he made while in power. I dont have my colours nailed to the mast of any politicial party but i would vote for a party with him in charge.

He still tours the world doing lectures about the strong economic position Ireland have gained for themselves. At his age i find it amazing.

dahamsta
07/02/2006, 4:40 PM
Wasn't Fitzgerald one of the people pushing for the European Constitution? In fact I seem to recollect that he was involved in drafting it...

adam /pro-europe, anti-right-wing-constitution

pete
07/02/2006, 5:25 PM
Slightly before my time but certainly one of the most respected politicians in our countries history. People will obviously disagree with some of his decisions but no doubting he in politics for the right reasons.

You only have to compare him with his arch nemesis Haughey who through bribes & backhanders made a fortune out of politics whereas Fitzgerald is by no means a wealthy man.

The Pie Man
07/02/2006, 6:41 PM
thats a good point pete fitzgerald made dicisions becuase they had to be made, not to line his own pockets.

one of the greatst politicians this state has ever known.

Lim till i die
08/02/2006, 12:34 PM
Correct my young self if I'm wrong but wasn't it Fitzgeralds enlightened regime who tried to introduce a tax on childrens shoes in one budget and in another memorable move a couple of years later attempted to cut the social welfare christmas bonus at a time when 100's of thousands were on the dole :confused:

Just because your better than a crook like Haughey doesn't make you great

crc
08/02/2006, 12:49 PM
Wasn't Fitzgerald one of the people pushing for the European Constitution? In fact I seem to recollect that he was involved in drafting it...Wrong

John Bruton was one of the Irish members of the European Convention (the body that drafted the Constitution), Garret wasn't, though I'm sure Garret was probably a fan of the Constitution.


http://european-convention.eu.int/

Block G Raptor
08/02/2006, 1:08 PM
Jebus the man signed the Anglo Irish Agreement and stood by while ten men(one a T.D. and one an M.P.) starved in The maze, Because IMO he was afraid to stand up to Thatcher. how any one can compliment the man is beyond me.

dahamsta
08/02/2006, 3:10 PM
WrongRight, sorry about that. He was still a cheerleader though, as you suggest.

adam

pete
08/02/2006, 6:48 PM
Bruton tired to put the tax on childrens shoes i believe. Anyway hardtimes require hard decisions. Haughey still gets credit for giving OAPs free bus travel but that was just a populist act.

As i said people will disagree with certain decisions made by any politician but i can'r see how anyone coul deny that Fitzgerald was an honourable politician who wasn't it politics to line his own pockets (hence the CJ comparison).

I think he still writes opinion pieces for the Irish Times from time to time.

Roverstillidie
08/02/2006, 7:32 PM
the very fact that we are supposed to venerate a politician for not being as bent as haughey amuses me.

pete
08/02/2006, 10:21 PM
the very fact that we are supposed to venerate a politician for not being as bent as haughey amuses me.

Its Ireland.

Macy
09/02/2006, 9:16 AM
the very fact that we are supposed to venerate a politician for not being as bent as haughey amuses me.
I suppose it's just a reaction to all those that still can't take the blinkers off and see what a corrupt politician Haughey was...

Lionel Ritchie
09/02/2006, 10:33 AM
the very fact that we are supposed to venerate a politician for not being as bent as haughey amuses me.

Not a fine gael voter but there is no suggestion he is "not as bent" as anyone. To the best of my knowledge the guy has never been implicated in any shady act of backhanding. That's the only Haughey comparison that was made.


Jebus the man signed the Anglo Irish Agreement and stood by while ten men(one a T.D. and one an M.P.) starved in The maze, Because IMO he was afraid to stand up to Thatcher. how any one can compliment the man is beyond me
Hmmm ....maybe he didn't agree with the ten mens politics. Maybe he didn't like their particular methods of protest which it strikes me is pretty much a slowed down suicide bombing. Maybe he felt that, horrible as those lads deaths were, those lads got to choose the hour and manner of their own passing which is a hell of a lot more than the IRA and the INLA ever gave those who got in their way.

pete
09/02/2006, 10:39 AM
Not a fine gael voter but there is no suggestion he is "not as bent" as anyone. To the best of my knowledge the guy has never been implicated in any shady act of backhanding. That's the only Haughey comparison that was made.


Haughey was his biggest political rival & it must have been obvious to Garret Fitzgerald what was going on. Its to his credit he didn't follwo that route to gain power.

Block G Raptor
09/02/2006, 11:19 AM
Hmmm ....maybe he didn't agree with the ten mens politics. Maybe he didn't like their particular methods of protest which it strikes me is pretty much a slowed down suicide bombing. Maybe he felt that, horrible as those lads deaths were, those lads got to choose the hour and manner of their own passing which is a hell of a lot more than the IRA and the INLA ever gave those who got in their way.

Or maybee he was so humiliated by Thatchers P.R. coup after the Anglo Irish Agreement was signed when she made him look like a total prat in front of the whole country that he didn't have the stomach to go against her on the hungerstrike issue.

I dont neccessarly agree with there brand of politics either. neither did amnesty interrnational, the archbishop, the POPE and they all did more for them than Fitzgerald. The tragedy of the 1978-1981 prison dispute had more to do with basic human rights than any political status.


those lads got to choose the hour and manner of their own passing which is a hell of a lot more than the IRA and the INLA ever gave those who got in their way.

I think its worth pointing out that none of the hungerstrikers were serving sentances for murder !

klein4
09/02/2006, 11:26 AM
the hungerstrikes were a few years before the anglo irish agreement. and haughey was in power for most of them as far as I remember. (altho gov changed hands a few times over short period at that time.) I dont think you can judge any man on how he dealt with a situation designed by very politically savvy people to cause as much discomfort and embarressment to both goverments as poss. it was a no win situation.

Lionel Ritchie
09/02/2006, 11:35 AM
Or maybee he was so humiliated by Thatchers P.R. coup after the Anglo Irish Agreement was signed when she made him look like a total prat in front of the whole country that he didn't have the stomach to go against her on the hungerstrike issue.

I dont neccessarly agree with there brand of politics either. neither did amnesty interrnational, the archbishop, the POPE and they all did more for them than Fitzgerald. The tragedy of the 1978-1981 prison dispute had more to do with basic human rights than any political status.

Kleins already dealt with this but how he couldn't have the stomach to stand up to Thatcher due to something that wouldn't take place for another four and a half years is fairly nonsensical.


I think its worth pointing out that none of the hungerstrikers were serving sentances for murder ! Fair enough. Now I'll point out that to a man they were members of the IRA with the exception of was it Patsy O'Hara or Francis Hughes who were INLA.

Block G Raptor
09/02/2006, 11:35 AM
the hungerstrikes were a few years before the anglo irish agreement. and haughey was in power for most of them as far as I remember. (altho gov changed hands a few times over short period at that time.) I dont think you can judge any man on how he dealt with a situation designed by very politically savvy people to cause as much discomfort and embarressment to both goverments as poss. it was a no win situation.

OK fair point but do you think that when Major was PM if Gareth was in office that we'd have a reletive peace in NI or that if Gareth was in talks with Blair Paisley and Trimble that the good friday agreement would ever have come about. whilst not a fan of Bertie or Albert Reynolds they stood up to their respective opposite numbers and got a good deal for all in the end. IMO gareth was not as strong willed as either of these and proved with the AIA that he was not below cow-towing to England

klein4
09/02/2006, 11:44 AM
I think the person you should be talking about is thatcher. she didnt stand down to anyone.so i think if bertie and reynolds were in power they wouldnt have got good friday agreement out of her.it was different times with different factors at play.think would george bush sit down with al quaeeda(sp?) and you will understand thatchers position on IRA. its too simplistic to say things like bertie would have got a deal. the situation was a lot more complex than that as you probably well know.

Block G Raptor
09/02/2006, 11:45 AM
Kleins already dealt with this but how he couldn't have the stomach to stand up to Thatcher due to something that wouldn't take place for another four and a half years is fairly nonsensical.
Fair enough. Now I'll point out that to a man they were members of the IRA with the exception of was it Patsy O'Hara or Francis Hughes who were INLA.
EDIT . O.K. so I got the timeline of events reversed but its the same really he didn't support the basic human rights of prisoners and he conceded on the AIA both show an unwillingness/Inability to promote his country's interests

Patsy O'hara and Kevin Lynch were both INLA members
The point I'm Making is that none of them were serving sentances for Murder
to point out that they were members of PIRA/INLA whilst insuating that this means they were murderers by association is irresponsible to say the least

Block G Raptor
09/02/2006, 11:54 AM
I think the person you should be talking about is thatcher. she didnt stand down to anyone.so i think if bertie and reynolds were in power they wouldnt have got good friday agreement out of her.it was different times with different factors at play.think would george bush sit down with al quaeeda(sp?) and you will understand thatchers position on IRA. its too simplistic to say things like bertie would have got a deal. the situation was a lot more complex than that as you probably well know.

Agreed but I beleive Bertie/Reynolds would have tried. History shows that Gareth apodted the same stance as Thatcher i.e. Murder is Murder is Murder Crime is Crime is Crime. Neither Bertie/Nor Reynolds would have entered into talks with SF/IRA if this was their stance Ditto Major/Blair

The day may come when Bush has to sit down with AL Qeida

Macy
09/02/2006, 12:50 PM
The point I'm Making is that none of them were serving sentances for Murder
to point out that they were members of PIRA/INLA whilst insuating that this means they were murderers by association is irresponsible to say the least
No one said they were murderers, just that they were members of terrorist groups from what I can see.

pete
09/02/2006, 12:57 PM
Agreed but I beleive Bertie/Reynolds would have tried. History shows that Gareth apodted the same stance as Thatcher i.e. Murder is Murder is Murder Crime is Crime is Crime. Neither Bertie/Nor Reynolds would have entered into talks with SF/IRA if this was their stance Ditto Major/Blair


That was Garret Fitzgerals political capital at the time. People elected him as Taoiseach knowing his opinion on terrorism.

Macy
09/02/2006, 1:01 PM
That was Garret Fitzgerals political capital at the time. People elected him as Taoiseach knowing his opinion on terrorism.
It was the state's opinion - didn't matter who was in power.

Block G Raptor
09/02/2006, 1:34 PM
No one said they were murderers, just that they were members of terrorist groups from what I can see.
I think the Insinuation of guilt by association is quite obvious

Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
I think its worth pointing out that none of the hungerstrikers were serving sentances for murder !

Fair enough. Now I'll point out that to a man they were members of the IRA with the exception of was it Patsy O'Hara or Francis Hughes who were INLA.those lads got to choose the hour and manner of their own passing which is a hell of a lot more than the IRA and the INLA ever gave those who got in their way.

__________________

Lionel Ritchie
10/02/2006, 11:35 AM
I insinuated nothing. I merely pointed out that nine of them were members of an organisation that claimed it was the legitimate army of this state and was butchering people in your name and mine. (Where the INLA claimed their mandate came from fcuk knows.)

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume -even without googling the topic -that none of them ended up in the H Blocks for shoplifting.

I read ten men dead many years ago but can't remember what the individuals were actually in for but there were many tales of individual adventures while they were on "active service".

Block G Raptor
10/02/2006, 11:41 AM
Joe McDonald, and four other prisoners where doing 25 years for being in a car with a hand gun in the glove box. all five where charged and sentanced for possesion of a handgun, British Justice:rolleyes:.Sands was serving life for a firebomb attack on a furniture factory(which was carried out at 3am) the others were serving for similar crimes The IRA Leadership at the time made a consious decision at the time not to allow convicted killers on the strike as they knew Thatcher would have a media field day. The most controversial of the ten was Francis Hughes who was serving Life for attempted murder of two soldiers, at one time in the late 70's Hughes was the most wanted man in the six counties. He fought tooth and nail to be allowed on the strike and in spite of better judgement the AC allowed him.


as you can see from my abve post it was actually 8 IRA and 2 INLA memebers not that it matters. Regardless of their political leanings they were all in the same inhuman situation in the Maze

Anyway this is going way off topic ......

Gareth Fitzgerald great politician or total subservant to Britain ?

klein4
10/02/2006, 12:09 PM
Im not criticising your posts but you havent really provided any hard evidance to support that assertion bout Fitzgerald. at the very worst he is no more "guilty" of what you are accusing him of than haughey. or if you are to take the argument to its logical conclusion Adams or McGuinneas.

pete
10/02/2006, 1:50 PM
I don't want to drag this off topic but its been shown since that the IRA used those hungerstrikers for its own political gain - its likely they positively encouraged the hunger strikes?

What could Fitzgerald do when only in power for 2-3 years. Huaghey was there for the rest of the time & he didn't intervene either...

Block G Raptor
10/02/2006, 2:01 PM
Im not criticising your posts but you havent really provided any hard evidance to support that assertion bout Fitzgerald. at the very worst he is no more "guilty" of what you are accusing him of than haughey. or if you are to take the argument to its logical conclusion Adams or McGuinneas.

I think (IMO) that Haughey put Irelands best interest's before bowing to the mighty empire across the water something that can't be said for fitzgerald (IMO)
People tend to forget that haughey did a lot of good things for Ireland during his tender ie. Job's, Foriegn investment, Roads, Schools it's just a pity he fecked his reputation up by being a greedy B@stard (or more specifically for getting caught being a greedy B@stard) I was quite young during Fitzgerald's term in goverment but I can't remember anything good that he's ever done. I have a real interest in Irish political history and from what I've read (the AIA aside) Fitzgerald was a non-entity (again IMO)

pete
10/02/2006, 2:04 PM
People tend to forget that haughey did a lot of good things for Ireland during his tender ie. Job's, Foriegn investment, Roads, Schools it's just a pity he fecked his reputation up by being a greedy B@stard (or more specifically for getting caught being a greedy B@stard)

Haughey was in power for basically 2 decades & only came good to some extent near the end. We still had terrible unemployment when he left power. Haughey was a crook but that needs a separate thread.

Back on topic - Fitzgerald was probably too intellectual to be a politician. Might have been a better head of government department or something.

Block G Raptor
10/02/2006, 2:13 PM
Fitzgerald was probably too intellectual to be a politician. Might have been a better head of government department or something.

Agreed he just wasn't cut out to deal with the really nasty situation's that arose on this Island during his leadership. unfortuneately history will record that he failed the Irish people on a number of social and economic issue's
that may or may not have been down to him. wrong person at the worst possible time (IMO)

fitzknows
11/02/2006, 4:14 AM
Agreed he just wasn't cut out to deal with the really nasty situation's that arose on this Island during his leadership. unfortuneately history will record that he failed the Irish people on a number of social and economic issue's
that may or may not have been down to him. wrong person at the worst possible time (IMO)


You´re entitled to form any opinion that you want but the fact remains that it was when Fitzgearld was in power that the Rep. of Ireland eventually had an official say in decisions taken with regard to the six counties. With regard to social issues his Government provided the people with referendums on abortion and divorce. In doing this he directly took on the most powerful social institution within the state. It may be that the people at the time still towed the church line but at least they got to have their say. Also it is unfair to lay the blame for the economic malaise of the time at his door. The economy had been poorly managed for a long time before he came to power and it was a long time after 1987 before things began to get better. Getting back to the Northern issue, the anglo-irish agreement was an important stepping stone towards further agreements between both governemnts on the future of Northern Ireland and would not have been achieved had your recommendations of dealing with the british governemnt been enacted.

CollegeTillIDie
16/02/2006, 9:58 AM
OK back to Fitzgerald. Pleasant enough individual on a personal basis.
However his government presided over the worst economic performance this country had seen ( 1982-1987) since the Famine. I was in College with a young woman who was the person he asked to archive his personal papers when he wrote his autobiography. She finished that job and like almost everyone else EMIGRATED in the late 1980's!

There were 300,000 plus unemployed during his tenure I was one of those for a couple of years. Many of my class from College emigrated and what's more never returned home Celtic Tiger or no Celtic Tiger... that's my two cent worth.

Lionel Ritchie
16/02/2006, 10:39 AM
I can't believe I'm going to bat for GF again but...


However his government presided over the worst economic performance this country had seen ( 1982-1987) since the Famine.. Come off it. The 1920's? The 1930's? The 1940's? The 1950's?


She finished that job and like almost everyone else EMIGRATED in the late 1980's! ...so sorting his papers or proof reading or whatever she did for GF should've indemnified her from the socio-economic pressures that everyone else faced? :confused: Hmmm ...maybe if Charlie had been in office he might've looked after her better. Now there was a taoiseach who took care of his buddies;)


There were 300,000 plus unemployed during his tenure I was one of those for a couple of years. Many of my class from College emigrated and what's more never returned home Celtic Tiger or no Celtic Tiger... that's my two cent worth.
No argument there as I was heading for the same boat if you'll pardon the pun. But it's not as if this was a situation unique to Ireland.

CollegeTillIDie
17/02/2006, 8:28 AM
I can't believe I'm going to bat for GF again but...

Come off it. The 1920's? The 1930's? The 1940's? The 1950's?

...so sorting his papers or proof reading or whatever she did for GF should've indemnified her from the socio-economic pressures that everyone else faced? :confused: Hmmm ...maybe if Charlie had been in office he might've looked after her better. Now there was a taoiseach who took care of his buddies;)

No argument there as I was heading for the same boat if you'll pardon the pun. But it's not as if this was a situation unique to Ireland.

Well the National debt did not double in the 1920's , 1930's or 1940's or 1950's ( it did between 1982 and 1987) so yes it was the worst economic performance since the Famine. During those other decades. Unemployment was not as high as there were more places in the USA, Canada Australia and GB to emigrate to.

Irish Politicians are expected by the irish electorate, to look after them.
It is known as the Clientelism of Irish Political Culture, and they study this phenomenon academically. And the politicans that don't look after their constituents, tend to lose subsequent elections.

That is how it the system has been expected to work in this country for years. And at it's worst extremes it leads to the sort of things the Tribunals were set up to investigate.
:rolleyes:

Lionel Ritchie
17/02/2006, 11:35 AM
Well the National debt did not double in the 1920's , 1930's or 1940's or 1950's ( it did between 1982 and 1987) so yes it was the worst economic performance since the Famine. During those other decades. Unemployment was not as high as there were more places in the USA, Canada Australia and GB to emigrate to.
Why do you continue to attack Fitzgerald for factors that out of your own mouth so to speak, were utterly beyond his control?
As for national debt ...the country had to borrow to put food on tables, interest rates were sky high and finance was a sellers market.

Your logic is comparable with calling Alan Curbishley a crap manager because Charlton haven't won the premier league in six attempts.



Irish Politicians are expected by the irish electorate, to look after them.
It is known as the Clientelism of Irish Political Culture, and they study this phenomenon academically. And the politicans that don't look after their constituents, tend to lose subsequent elections.

That is how it the system has been expected to work in this country for years. And at it's worst extremes it leads to the sort of things the Tribunals were set up to investigate.
:rolleyes: All of which goes to make us the politically clean, safe, non-corrupt beacon of modern developed democracy we are today ...no wait:eek:

Macy
17/02/2006, 11:44 AM
You can't look at the 80's in isolation without looking at the legacy left by the FF giveaway Government of 1977.

pete
17/02/2006, 1:05 PM
Whats state was the country in 1982? Not a whole lot worse in 1987 i'm sure?

CollegeTillIDie
17/02/2006, 8:08 PM
Whats state was the country in 1982? Not a whole lot worse in 1987 i'm sure?

Pete

It was a possibility to get a job in 1982 a long shot but a possibility.
You couldn't get a job for love nor money by 1986!

CollegeTillIDie
17/02/2006, 8:10 PM
You can't look at the 80's in isolation without looking at the legacy left by the FF giveaway Government of 1977.

While you are at it what about the borrowing of Richie RYan in the 1973-1977 period ? If you don't want to look at anything in isolation. Because that was the real beginning of deficit budgeting in the country. Yes the giveaway compounded that.

But in fairness to Cosgrave's Government they rode the rough waves of economic climes somewhat better in the 1970's than their successors did a decade later!

P.S. A pattern is emerging. The architect of the 1977 Giveaway election was Professor Martin O'Donoghue...an Economist!
Garret Fitzgerald Taoiseach from 1982 to 1987 was an economist. Between them they had the World Bank on our doorstep by 1987.
Moral of the story..... NEVER ALLOW AN ECONOMIST ANYWHERE NEAR THE ECONOMY!

CollegeTillIDie
17/02/2006, 8:16 PM
All of which goes to make us the politically clean, safe, non-corrupt beacon of modern developed democracy we are today ...no wait:eek:

We get the politicians we deserve. People complain that there are not enough Women in parliament. NOT ENOUGH OF THEM RUN FOR OFFICE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

As regards the Alan Curbishley analogy, if he led Charlton Athletic down into the Ryman League you would agree that he was a crap manager now wouldn't you?...... he hasn't and he isn't!

CollegeTillIDie
17/02/2006, 8:19 PM
Why do you continue to attack Fitzgerald for factors that out of your own mouth so to speak, were utterly beyond his control?
As for national debt ...the country had to borrow to put food on tables, interest rates were sky high and finance was a sellers market.

Well All of the tax dodging and tax evasion and failure to pay their way by so many wealthy during the 1980's did not help their case.
The only people in this country who made money legitimately starting from nothing in the 1980's were U2!
But all we got was dole for the money borrowed!