Danish Newspaper Cartoons

[Poor Student]

Bu "Muslim first" and "British second" (as I've heard) is out of order as is "Catholic first" and "Irish second".



Is it true that JFK had to qualify at some point in his election campaign something to the effect that he would show loyalty to the US Constitution first before he obeyed the pope in Rome? It's a bit tangental but this just sparked that off in my mind.

I suppose the whole issue raises an old question. As a firm believer in God and indeed Islam, do you acquiesce about this and sit back content the infidels are going to hell or do you suck it to the infidel for their blasphemy as a servant of God? I'm nowhere close to being familiar with the theological arguments supporting either action but I have often heard Islam argued for as a religion of peace. I must say a lot of people (couldn't tell you what kind of percentage of Islam they represent but a significant minority at least) are sticking it to who they believe are the blasphemers. I can't help but feel our two worlds are as deeply in conflict ideologically and almost in actuality as we were a millenium ago.

[Hither green]

I stick by what I say though - criticism of Israeli government policy is not anti-Semitism if it's concerned with the morality of those policies. Too many pro-Israel immediately use that cover all "anti-Semitism" label to stifle any legitimate criticism of that country.

Couldn’t agree with you more there. And whilst comparisons of the state of Israel with Nazi Germany is obviously provocative it has certain grounds for validity in view of their racial elitism, ethnic legislative bias and the flexible way in which they interpret democracy.


BTW, these cartoons have been around since September. Why did some members and Imams of the Muslim community and in Mosques copy them and circulate them amongst the Muslim Community only lately?? Surely they too should have copped on that only trouble would have resulted from this.

I thought the current furore was because they were republished?


Finally, many here regard the cartoons as an insult? Some think the cartoons are satire. Nobody has drawn a line yet. Why? Because it's impossible.

But the line was already clearly drawn, the issue of depicting Mohammed has long been clear, the Continental press were already well aware of the line before they stepped over it and, as I understand it, commissioned these drawings with intention of seeing how far they could step over that line.


Yeah but we don't burn down embassies over it!

But once upon a time we would have. Once upon a time we’d have called a Crusade to right the wrong. Not that I’m saying that’s right but whilst we’d considered ourselves more civilised to medieval Catholics, we’re also most certainly less religious and more secular. Are we in a position to condemn others because they’re as fervent as we once were? Have we progressed or regressed? We'd say we've progressed but Muslims and the Church would say the opposite.

[Poor Student]

Have we progressed or regressed? We'd say we've progressed but Muslims and the Church would say the opposite.

That's a point I was trying to raise. Assume Islam is correct, the Koran is the word of God etc. Why bother with secularism? One could argue the same for Catholicism or other Christian denominations. Without sounding obvious, a secular world is a secular ideal. If one were to believe fully in their religion then there is no particular point in secularism unless of course you can find a doctrinal reason for respecting other relgions and beliefs (or non-beliefs).

[hamish]

The line was crossed when they printed an image of the Prophet. It contributed nothing to the satire, it simply caused offence. Similar criticisms have been leveled at moslem society and beliefs in the past (eg here http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38673) without outrage.

I think that there is a strong parallel between this and Kevin Myres' "b a s t a r d s" column a few months ago. Kevin raised valid issues but crossed the line whan he used language which caused offence but didn't contribute to the point he was trying to raise. The cartoonists did the same, only with an offensive image in the place of offensive language.

I don't mind people being offenseve if it is necessary to raise an issue but these cartoons were offensive for the sake of being offensive.

Thanks for that SM - that helps me and I agree that the Danish cartoonist was trying to see how much he'd get away with as BBC reporter opined. I hate saying this again but when I was about your age (circa 30 years ago) there was a tendency to hammer everything a feck the consequences - whethere it was Python or The Goon Show - nothing seemed to be off limits really.

Were they slagging Mohammed though? - the one drawing I could find of the Prophet (see above) didn't look much like the cartoons - they reminded me more of the Ataytullohs in Iran.

I'm just confusing myself more and more now.:confused: :o

[hamish]

Is it true that JFK had to qualify at some point in his election campaign something to the effect that he would show loyalty to the US Constitution first before he obeyed the pope in Rome? It's a bit tangental but this just sparked that off in my mind.

I suppose the whole issue raises an old question. As a firm believer in God and indeed Islam, do you acquiesce about this and sit back content the infidels are going to hell or do you suck it to the infidel for their blasphemy as a servant of God? I'm nowhere close to being familiar with the theological arguments supporting either action but I have often heard Islam argued for as a religion of peace. I must say a lot of people (couldn't tell you what kind of percentage of Islam they represent but a significant minority at least) are sticking it to who they believe are the blasphemers. I can't help but feel our two worlds are as deeply in conflict ideologically and almost in actuality as we were a millenium ago.

Yeah CTID, how many religions say they are the one true one?? The only two I can think of are Islam and Christianity. I think that Buddhism definitely doesn't have that tenet. But isn't the blasphemy argument irrelevant since the cartoonist are non Muslim?? Don't you have to be a member of the club, so to speak??

I think I stated that I wouldn't post about this again but you guys are too interesting.:)

[Poor Student]

Yeah CTID, how many religions say they are the one true one?? The only two I can think of are Islam and Christianity. I think that Buddhism definitely doesn't have that tenet. But isn't the blasphemy argument irrelevant since the cartoonist are non Muslim?? Don't you have to be a member of the club, so to speak??

It's me, Poor Student! Juadaism is another one which can contend it is the true one. Hinduism too I guess. I know it's a poor analogy but as an Athlone fan you're not an immediate offence to me but if you start saying UCD have no right to be in the league then you're starting to tick me off. I gather from an Islamic perspective, as non-believer in Mohammed you're just ignorant but start dissing him and you're actively offending me and being blashemous. As far as I would be concerned we're all creations of Allah and all capable of blasphemy. That make any sense?:confused:

[dfx-]

I m not going to get into what seems to be a 3 page cyclical argument about whether it is offending if you look at it from any perspective you like. Such minute detail is irrelevant to the issue, in my opinion - I'm sure many will class that as wrong/generalising/stupid etc.

What I base it on is being nonreligious myself as to whether the subsequent actions and noise coming from the offended group meets the original event. It does not, in my opinion. I gladly support any publication who have printed the said material. I can understand some people's offence to it. However this does not allow you to do what some people have done and say what some people have said. I take offence to the reaction of some people.

I am not going to go marching about it or waving banners in the air or burning buildings I associate with the people I have ben offended by though. The subsequent reactions whether offended are not are pathetic. Whether you are offended or not, you have no right to react like some people have done - in my opinion.

[hamish]

It's me, Poor Student! Juadaism is another one which can contend it is the true one. Hinduism too I guess. I know it's a poor analogy but as an Athlone fan you're not an immediate offence to me but if you start saying UCD have no right to be in the league then you're starting to tick me off. I gather from an Islamic perspective, as non-believer in Mohammed you're just ignorant but start dissing him and you're actively offending me and being blashemous. As far as I would be concerned we're all creations of Allah and all capable of blasphemy. That make any sense?

Does indeed amigo - very articulate. An Athlone fan dissing UCD :eek: never!!

My attitude to other EL clubs TBH is one where I get real pleasure in learning good news on ground developments etc etc. Progress for other clubs is good for Athlone and vice versa so I find it impossible to knock other clubs unless someone acts the b.ollocks, bends rules etc etc - something Athlone Town would NEVER do.:p :D LOL

I posted my points before you came on board PS - I would never dream of ignoring you BTW. You write good stuff man.

Hither Green and Student Mullet - thank you also amigos also for the updates and clarifications.

[Poor Student]

Does indeed amigo - very articulate. An Athlone fan dissing UCD :eek: never!!

Thanks.:D


My attitude to other EL clubs TBH is one where I get real pleasure in learning good news on ground developments etc etc. Progress for other clubs is good for Athlone and vice versa so I find it impossible to knock other clubs unless someone acts the b.ollocks, bends rules etc etc - something Athlone Town would NEVER do.:p LOL

I suppose just as some people of different religions are happy to see others live in peace and some just want to stir the pot for whatever reason.


I posted my points before you came on board PS - I would never dream of ignoring you BTW. You write good stuff man.

Thanks again. It's just you quoted me and called me CTID. You probably saw the UCD crest and put 2 and 2 together and got 5.:P

dfx, while you're entitled to think so, essentially I think that's the attitude from the Islamic side which is helping largely to fan the flames. I don't think such an attitude is conducive to calming the situation down. That's the problem really, two diametrically opposed weltenschauungs. It's hard to meet in between.

[Poor Student]

By the way does anyone find it suspicious that such a tough and undemocratic regime as they have in Syria couldn't prevent the destruction of the embassies in Damascus? Also sad to see an embassy burned down in Beirut a city once though of as a bridge between the Christian and Islamic worlds.

[hamish]

Thanks.:D



I suppose just as some people of different religions are happy to see others live in peace and some just want to stir the pot for whatever reason.



Thanks again. It's just you quoted me and called me CTID. You probably saw the UCD crest and put 2 and 2 together and got 5.:P

dfx, while you're entitled to think so, essentially I think that's the attitude from the Islamic side which is helping largely to fan the flames. I don't think such an attitude is conducive to calming the situation down. That's the problem really, two diametrically opposed weltenschauungs. It's hard to meet in between.

Sincere apologies PS about mixing your good self and CTID up - you know how scrambled I am most of the time:o Yeah, I saw that crest but I could have sworn it was CTID who's name was there.:confused: Enjoy the clarity of youth while you have it.

I can see where dfx is coming from - I think the reaction from the Muslim world is way over the top.

This is a time when Muslims have many non-Muslims on their side with what Bubble Boy and Poodle Bliar are up to in the Middle East and they react to a fcuking medicore cartoon FFS. The issue with regard to Iraq is what should be bringing all faiths together not squabbling over cartoons in some bloody Danish newspaper. I'm not saying that Muslims should be grateful for our support BTW - it's just humanity against an obscene war crime.

Back in the 70s we had lunatics here whinging over women (among them the bauld Nell McCafferty) bringing the Pill down on the train from Belfast while many of our brightest and best were taking the boat elsewhere to find employment. God, how I remember that. Or, as I mentioned earlier, Tuam councillors about an "immoral" segment of The Riordans when the town's sugar factory was going under.

Did anyone see the latest issue of Private Eye? - some good cartoons on this issue.

I noticed even moderate Muslims criticising the Muslim demonstrations on Sky News today and asking why the police didn't arrest those who had those hateful posters in the UK yesterday. The police videoed the poster holders and didn't want to arrest immediately in case of a riot.

Someone was in charge of those demonstrations - why were they not removed by said organisers or does it mean that those banners were condone??

There is absolutely no excuse for anyone to cry for death to anyone or burn buildings or hassle/temporarily kidnap foreigners etc over a bloody cartoon. I also notice many emailers too (to Sky News, for what it's worth) getting
p!ssed of too at these dreadful posters. One said, "If I stood in Oxford street and brandished a poster saying 'Death to Muslims', I'd be arrested in seconds".

Also, what bets anyone on there being an assassination attempt on Hugo Chavez - wonder where that will come from eh?

The biggest monsters on the block are the Bush Crime Family, Bliar, Howard, Murdoch and co. - that's what Muslims and non-Muslims should be continuously demonstrating about.

PS, Poor Student - what does that strange German(?) word mean??

[dfx-]

I don't think such an attitude is conducive to calming the situation down.

My attitude is in response to the situation though. What I take offence to is some people expecting me to continue to be in reverence to their opinion on their God. That they live to a specific set of rules to their God does not mean that I must. I should not be threatened with Mujahideen and Bin Laden coming to Europe. In Damascus, the Swedish embassy is in the same building as the Norwegian and Danish Embassy and from another forum where I am resident, a Swedish member airs her opinion:


Our embassy was also on fire because it's in the same fecking building!!!! We haven't done anything at all!

But I guess these people think Sweden, Denmark and Norway are part of the same country.

I'm sick of hearing them complain over a fecking cartoon!! Fundamentalist b-tards!!

As soon as people don't do what these madmen want, they set things on fire and start demonstrations, burn flags despite not knowing anything about the country they supposedly "hate" because of a stupid cartoon!

I'm furious over this behaviour! They think that they are the centre of the world!

The reason for my attitude is the above line:


As soon as people don't do what these madmen want, they set things on fire and start demonstrations, burn flags

Along with threatening mujahideen and Bin Laden coming to Europe. I am afraid, regardless of skin, race, creed etc and I have no religious prejudice, I am not going to have some people holding the rest of the world to ransom and openly threaten them over a cartoon in a democratically elected country and I don't even care what was in the cartoon.

If you're offended fine, lots of people are offended every day of the week and justifiably so, but you have no right to react like some have done. This was not an issue, the first most people heard of it was the protests about it. It before that was an issue between the muslim community and the paper in question. The fact that certain sections of the community have reacted by threatening behaviour and acting on violence gives me no sympathy whatsoever for them and is indefensible, in my opinion.

[REVIP]

If you're offended fine, lots of people are offended every day of the week and justifiably so, but you have no right to react like some have done. This was not an issue, the first most people heard of it was the protests about it. It before that was an issue between the muslim community and the paper in question. The fact that certain sections of the community have reacted by threatening behaviour and acting on violence gives me no sympathy whatsoever for them and is indefensible, in my opinion.

As a Christian, I would agree.

I found the bookmakers who used the picture of the Last Supper very offensive; it doesn't mean I have the right to go and trash the betting shop.

I get really annoyed by one of those stupid radio ads for a job vacancies website where a silly child says "Oh God". In fact, it has reached the point that when I hear any presenter using the Lord's name in vain, I switch stations, which I think is a reasonable response - if something offends me, then I don't look or listen. It has now reached the point where I listen to Lyric much of the time.

It's years since I heard the word 'weltanschuung' - I don't think the world views are necessarily mutually exclusive - for generations in the old Ottoman Empire the three great faiths co-existed.

[hamish]

As a Christian, I would agree.

I found the bookmakers who used the picture of the Last Supper very offensive; it doesn't mean I have the right to go and trash the betting shop.

I get really annoyed by one of those stupid radio ads for a job vacancies website where a silly child says "Oh God". In fact, it has reached the point that when I hear any presenter using the Lord's name in vain, I switch stations, which I think is a reasonable response - if something offends me, then I don't look or listen. It has now reached the point where I listen to Lyric much of the time.

It's years since I heard the word 'weltanschuung' - I don't think the world views are necessarily mutually exclusive - for generations in the old Ottoman Empire the three great faiths co-existed.

The I must apologise for offending you 'cos I have a dreadful habit of using it here. Promise to remember that from now on Revip.:o

What does that word "welthanschung" actually mean?

True about the co-existence. Didn't the Arabs (Muslims?) protect the Jews from danger on occasions in the past?? Read about it somewhere but have forgotten the exact details.

Given that both Judaism and Islam are called "sons of Abraham" (something like that) it often appears to me like a family fight and there's nothing worse than a family fight.

The Observer carried some articles on it yesterday. It stated that too many newspapers in the Islamic world carry Nazi-like anti-Semitic articles and cartoons.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1702532,00.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,,1702531,00.html

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1702277,00.html

**The striking part of Arabic Jew-baiting is that it is as prevalent, nasty and dehumanising as it ever was in Nazi Germany. Newspapers published in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Oman and UAE all use demonic images of stereotypical Jews (big nose, black coat and hat and laden with money bags) pulling the strings behind the scenes in US politics, buying political influence and spreading death, terror and disease. Josef Goebbels would have felt quite at home reading these newspapers.

All worth a read.

[pete]

I don't get the cartoons at all & can't undersatnd the offense...

Fundamentaist Christians exist but I haven't seen them burn down embassys because of the few cartoons.

:confused:

[Tired&Emotional]

I don't get the cartoons at all & can't undersatnd the offense...

Fundamentaist Christians exist but I haven't seen them burn down embassys because of the few cartoons.

:confused:


Images depicting Mohammad are not allowed according to the Koran.

OK, fair enough, you might say.

But all this violence etc is hardly the answer. It's political opportunism gone mad!!

One thing that struck me over the weekend listening to all this getting out of hand was will we see a shift to the right in political terms in Europe over the next while in the aftermath of all this??

I dont think Muslims have a right to expect us as, a Western society, to bow to their every whim just because they believe in certain ideals. If they wish to live "here", THEY must live along the lines of how our society here has developed, surely? Don't we do the same when we visit Muslim countries by taking our shoes off, women covering up accordingly and not drinking alcohol??

I was in a Muslim restaurant in London a few months ago during Ramadam and no alcohol was being served - and I respected this: I didn't go outside and set the place on fire just because I wasn't allowed indulge in my western tradition.....

I should say I am Roman Catholic btw

[WeAreRovers]

My two cents - It's all very simple as far as I'm concerned, newspapers and journalists have a right to print these cartoons even if they offend millions of people.

Likewise I'm glad that Nick Griffin was acquited last week. As much as I find his views abhorrent I would defend his right to voice them.

Freedom of speech should never be taken for granted and to give in to bullying would be unforgivable.

KOH

[pete]

I'm usually toterant to religious needs but its insane to threaten murder on people for a few innocent cartoons.

Tribune reprinted a canadian cartoon yesterday - in photo 1 had guy getting ready to protest about cartoons & in photo 2 he was too busy to address a list of muslim social issues...

I just can't take anyone who is protesting about cartoons seriously.

[John83]

What does that word "welthanschung" actually mean?

Ideology. Welt means world. Anschauung I've never seen on its own, but it seems to mean idea, opinion, stuff like that.

As for the cartoons, burning buildings and death threats aren't going to do the steriotypes of Muslims any more good than a few drawings. Anyone have any idea whether the violent protesters have substantial support among normal Muslims?

[Poor Student]

Tehran Danish embassy under attack

06 February 2006 17:54
Hundreds of demonstrators have pelted the Danish embassy compound in Tehran with petrol bombs and rocks late this evening, as protests over cartoons portraying the Prophet Mohammed spread across the Muslim world.

Denmark had earlier asked the Iranian authorities to increase security at the embassy, following weekend attacks on
its embassy in Damascus and its consulate in Beirut, which were both burned by angry demonstrators.

Iran's commerce minister announced today, however, that all trade with Denmark had been suspended.

Advertisement


Anger at the cartoons rose across east Africa: at least one person was killed in a protest in Somalia and Djibouti banned the
import of Danish products.

In Kenya, the country's main Islamic group announced plans for a mass protest against Denmark.

Qatar's Chamber of Commerce said it had halted dealings with Danish and Norwegian delegations, urging Muslim states to do the same. In Bahrain, parliament formed a committee to contact Arab and Islamic governments to enforce the boycott.

In Strasbourg, the Council of Europe described as 'unacceptable' the violence of the past few days.

Freedom of opinion and expression is protected by European human rights law, 'even in cases when the views expressed were offensive,' said Secretary General Terry Davis.

Denmark told its nationals to avoid Muslim countries even as it pursued diplomatic efforts to defuse tension over the publication of the cartoons.

The foreign ministry warning lists 14 Muslim countries travellers should avoid following violent protests against the
cartoons, which first appeared in a Danish daily.

They are Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Sudan, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates.

Protests in Asia


Earlier today, there were demonstrations and riots across muslim Asia against the cartoons

Authorities in Afghanistan say three people have been killed during clashes between police and protestors.

Two were killed in gunfire from among protestors at the main gates of Bagram Airbase, 60km north of the capital Kabul. A crowd of about 5,000 people had gathered to protest outside the US-led coalition's Bagram headquarters.

Five protestors and eight police officers were wounded in the incident.

And in the eastern province of Lakhman, a third protestor died after being shot during a demonstration.

In Somalia, a 14-year-old boy was shot dead and several others were injured after crowds attacked police.

There have also been demonstrations in Indonesia, India, Gaza, Thailand and New Zealand.

The cartoons were first published in a Danish newspaper in September and have since been reprinted in several publications, most of them European.

UK police have govt support

The British government has said the behaviour of some Muslim demonstrators outside the Danish Embassy in London in recent days was completely unacceptable.

A Downing Street statement added that the police would have the government's full support in any actions they wished to take as a result of the protests.

Police have been criticised for failing to arrest some of the London demonstrators, as they carried signs threatening to kill those who published the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

Earlier, some of Lebanon's political leaders accused Syria of being behind the attack on the Danish embassy in Beirut yesterday.

The mission was ransacked and burnt during the violent protests.
The attack on the embassy has resulted in the resignation of Lebanon's Interior Minister, Hassan Sabeh.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

It's really hit the fan over this one.:eek:

[Dr.Nightdub]

Likewise I'm glad that Nick Griffin was acquited last week. As much as I find his views abhorrent I would defend his right to voice them.

Steady on, WAR. Frank Ryan..."No free speech for fascists", etc?

[rebs23]

My two cents - It's all very simple as far as I'm concerned, newspapers and journalists have a right to print these cartoons even if they offend millions of people.

Likewise I'm glad that Nick Griffin was acquited last week. As much as I find his views abhorrent I would defend his right to voice them.

Freedom of speech should never be taken for granted and to give in to bullying would be unforgivable.

KOH
How about the Battle of Waterloo Bridge and all that WAR! Never thought I'd hear that about Nick Griffin from you! Best thing you can give those guys is a lot of microphone to hang themselves with.

[Roverstillidie]

my tuppence worth and all.

the reality is islam, and most people that practice it, are feeling vunerable and threatened. israel turning the screw in the west bank, iraq invaded, iran possibly next, governments like pakistan and saudi running for cover and repressing their people like never before. american, and by proxy western, culture now has them all as terrorists and we have pundits on the likes of fox openly advocating a nuclear strile on mecca.

so why wind them up? it was a gratuitious, deliberitley offensive set of doodles that had no artistic or critical value.

we know that islam prohibits pictures of mohammed. so labelling him a terrorist in cartoon form is a red rag to a cornered bull.

and bear in mind ballymena council have just banned the screening of brokeback mountain. are we that far 'ahead' in the liberal west?

meanwhile a danish conservative rag has made its point about multiculturism in modern scandanavia.

[pete]

we know that islam prohibits pictures of mohammed. so labelling him a terrorist in cartoon form is a red rag to a cornered bull.

and bear in mind ballymena council have just banned the screening of brokeback mountain. are we that far 'ahead' in the liberal west?


Denmark is not a muslim country & i;d bve surprised if even a fraction of those that are "protesting" have even seen the cartoons. The big difference too is that christian fundamentalists don't attack people & burn buildings.

[Student Mullet]

The big difference too is that christian fundamentalists don't attack people & burn buildings.I was watching the american news last night and oblivious to the irony the news presenter criticised the backwardness of moslem societies before moving onto a story about an 18 year old who was shot by the police after he opened fire on a gay bar.

[Closed Account 2]

the reality is islam, and most people that practice it, are feeling vunerable and threatened. israel turning the screw in the west bank, iraq invaded, iran possibly next, governments like pakistan and saudi running for cover and repressing their people like never before.

Don't really agree with the perceived threat being responsible for the level of response to be honest. The reaction over the cartoons is very similar to the reaction to Salman Rushdie's Verses in the late 80s. Then Islam appeared to be in a strong position, the Mullahs in Iran had survived for 10 years despite a massive war with Iraq, the bombing in Lebanon forced the US out of the Middle East, and the notion of Islam defeating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Yet the reaction to Rushdie's book was almost identical, books and effegies burnt in the street, massive demonstrations and death threats and murders of translators (think the Japanese translator was killed).

I think that when aspects of Islam are questioned or subject to satire there seems to be a trend of a violent counter-reaction. The danger is legitimate debate over Islam will not be allowed and historical myths (or at best half truths) about Islam will persist. For instance, someone in the thread has already claimed how wonderfully 3 religions co-existed during the Ottoman Empire. This is a half truth, Christians in Ottoman Europe and the Middle East were treated like slaves (the technical term was "dhimmis" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi)). Cutting to the chase as well having to pay a protection tax, dhimmis were not allowed to hold political office, not allowed to publish/sell/well non-Muslim religious items. They were also not equal in terms of legal status. Dhimmi testimony was not accepted in courts, and there was the death penalty for dhimmis who killed Muslims, but fines for Muslims who killed dhimmis.

Christian families living in Eastern Europe regularly had their sons forcefully taken and enslaved into the Ottoman Army (link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirmeh)). Of particular note is the last sentence or so:-

"For others it was forced conversion causing a great amount of grief to families who lost their children. Most people in Christian Balkan countries hold the later view, and colloquially this practice is often called "the blood tax" in many Balkan languages."

The bottom line is, with all this violent counter-reaction, there is a danger that no-one will question any aspect of Islam for fear of generating such a reaction, or simply because its too much hassle, or perhaps (in the UK) because it will soon be illegal.

When I did my MA a couple of years ago we had a seminar on the former Yugoslavia, another student raised the general point above about how Christians in the Balkans take a dim view of the Ottoman Empire because of the "blood tax", and he was accused of "mis-representing Islam" and being an "Islamophobe" by a group of 2-3 Muslim students, who then walked out of the seminar.

[Poor Student]

That's why you have Bosnia with a large muslim population slap bang in the middle of Christian Europe. The area was a vacuum between Catholic West and Orthodox East. I think there was a non-affiliated Christian sect Bogomills there. When the Ottoman Empire took control of the region these people converted over as they weren't under the influence of either of the main Christian religions and converted for pragmatic reasons not theological. Given the treatment of Christians under Ottoman rule it was far handier to be a Muslim. Of course one can point out a Christian fared better under Ottoman rule than a non-Catholic under Inquisition Spain but edmundo is right, Christians were second class citizens under the Ottomans.

[Peadar]

There was a pretty big demonstration in London today by Muslims about it.

Just shows the hypocrisy of the Muslims involved.
They get upset about a cartoon and then think it's acceptable to dress like suicide bombers and wave signs with hate filled messages about murdering Europeans.
These cowards take advantage of the civil liberties afforded to them in Britain, walking around with their faces covered and espousing hatred of all Western people.

If Scotland Yard don't prosecute some of these people, things are going to take a turn for the worst in Britain. Disgusting behaviour and outrageous disregard for their host country.
Anyone who hasn't seen the messages of hate portrayed by the protestors should refrain from attacking my post.

[Roverstillidie]

Denmark is not a muslim country & i;d bve surprised if even a fraction of those that are "protesting" have even seen the cartoons. The big difference too is that christian fundamentalists don't attack people & burn buildings.

U, U, UDA?

[Block G Raptor]

Was watching TV3 this morning and apparently an Iranian newspaper is openly advertising for artist's to submit cartoon's depicting the holocaust. this is getting out of hand. Dread to think what the Isreali reaction to this will be
www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1876200,00.html -

[Tired&Emotional]

As the aftermath of the cartoons continues and demonstrations by Muslims holding placards calling for beheadings, massacre and death to free speech, a demonstrator in London has been arrested.

He was dressed up like a suicide bomber to protest. Charming!
How these people can pretend to be angered so much by a bloody catoon is crazy. It was only pen and paper for God's sake.

And to add to the whole political opportunism angle under the guise of "offence", this guy is, apparently, a convicted drug dealer! How the hell does he reconcile that to his sacred Muslim faith???!!!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13503868,00.html

[Tired&Emotional]

Was watching TV3 this morning and apparently an Iranian newspaper is openly advertising for artist's to submit cartoon's depicting the holocaust. this is getting out of hand. Dread to think what the Isreali reaction to this will be
www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1876200,00.html -


I would hope the Jewish people practice some restraint- if only to show how infantile some Muslims are behaving.

[Roverstillidie]

you are missing the point on 2 fronts.

islam prohibits pictures of mohammed, so cartoons depicting him as a terrorist cut deeper than most of us can imagine. imagine if jesus was depicted with a hitler tache and a can of zyclon gas by a muslim paper? would the us bible belt be so sanguine? its the same analagy

and you then say that pics of the holocaust are too much? exactly the point the iranians are making. cartooning the holocaust is taboo, but insulting the prophet of the worlds second largest religion isnt? all they are doing is pointing out the double standards at play.

[Hither green]

I dont think Muslims have a right to expect us as, a Western society, to bow to their every whim just because they believe in certain ideals. If they wish to live "here", THEY must live along the lines of how our society here has developed, surely? Don't we do the same when we visit Muslim countries by taking our shoes off, women covering up accordingly and not drinking alcohol??


Sorry T&E if I’ve got the wrong end of your argument. I entirely agree that someone who migrates to another country should respect the customs of that country and not expect preferential treatment, but I do think they’ve a right to be respected and not insulted.


My attitude is in response to the situation though. What I take offence to is some people expecting me to continue to be in reverence to their opinion on their God. That they live to a specific set of rules to their God does not mean that I must.

Muslims aren’t expecting Denmark to convert to Islam, they’re expecting Denmark to be tolerant and to respect their views. I wouldn’t have expected the newspapers to hold Mohammed with the same reverence as Islam does but that’s not the issue here, it’s about them deliberately going out to insult someone else’s God, deliberately going out to offend Muslims. I’m sorry but if that’s freedom of speech then you can keep it. Shouldn’t we be expected to respect each other and each other’s beliefs? I take it you also don’t feel that you should be expected to be tolerant towards the British honouring their dead on poppy day or be expected to show reverence towards Jewish people honouring the dead of the holocaust or be respectful towards Mrs Kelly living next door remembering her deceased husband?

[John83]

you are missing the point on 2 fronts.

islam prohibits pictures of mohammed, so cartoons depicting him as a terrorist cut deeper than most of us can imagine. imagine if jesus was depicted with a hitler tache and a can of zyclon gas by a muslim paper? would the us bible belt be so sanguine? its the same analagy

and you then say that pics of the holocaust are too much? exactly the point the iranians are making. cartooning the holocaust is taboo, but insulting the prophet of the worlds second largest religion isnt? all they are doing is pointing out the double standards at play.
I've nothing to back this up with, so take it with a pinch of salt, but I've heard that Middle Eastern newspapers regularly run antisemitic cartoons with references to the holocost.

[Lim till i die]

I've nothing to back this up with, so take it with a pinch of salt, but I've heard that Middle Eastern newspapers regularly run antisemitic cartoons with references to the holocost.

Which without straying too far off topic would be pretty understandable given the circumstances......

Anyway, just wait for the tidal wave of sickening "Western" hypocrisy and double-standards if the Iranians print those cartoons. Fair play to Iran

[Tired&Emotional]

Anyway, just wait for the tidal wave of sickening "Western" hypocrisy and double-standards if the Iranians print those cartoons. Fair play to Iran

Is this the same Iran that is building a comprehensive nuclear programme to keep the power supply running to warm their toes during winter?????!!

[Lim till i die]

Is this the same Iran that is building a comprehensive nuclear programme to keep the power supply running to warm their toes during winter?????!!

Ya the very same, its also the same Iran that was almost wiped out by pan-Arab and Western (U.S) agression during the "Whirlwind War", you know that Iran ;) Fair play to a brave nation standing up against agression and hypocrisy

[WeAreRovers]

Steady on, WAR. Frank Ryan..."No free speech for fascists", etc?

It's one of the few opinons of mine that's changed with the onset of "maturity" ;)

I used to be a "kick them off the streets" merchant but now I reckon that's what they want. I also hope David Irving gets off the incitement to hatred charge he's facing in Austria. And I really never thought I'd say that. :eek:

KOH

[Ash]

Recently enough I think the Irish Times had some urine extraction picture of the Last Supper.

Paddy Power had a billboard advert on Dorset Street I think with
a p!ss take of the last supper. There was an outcry about how dare
they do such a thing in a catholic country etc

[Tired&Emotional]

Ya the very same, its also the same Iran that was almost wiped out by pan-Arab and Western (U.S) agression during the "Whirlwind War", you know that Iran ;) Fair play to a brave nation standing up against agression and hypocrisy


Don't know how you can say fair play to them. It is a calculated ploy to raise tensions. They are deliberately trying to up the anti in all this. And the fact that they are running a competition to get these cartoons highlights their contempt for Western society!

I don't think the editor of the Danish paper which published the cartoons back in Sept 05, knew the effect it would have after Imam's took a few months spreading them around Muslim nations!!! These people incited there own, using the cartoons as an excuse!

The state-and-media relationship in Iran is a completely different animal to that of Western societies of democracy, freespeech etc. You cannot compare the two. So any such cartoons that appear in Iranian papers will be a more than even a nations voice - not a newspaper that is truely independent and stands for freespeech etc. This is all playground behavior.

And I don't accept that an image can cause so much unrest - it says more than a little something about these people if they balance out this "offence" with extreme violence that has now led to death of fellow human beings!

[Roverstillidie]

Is this the same Iran that is building a comprehensive nuclear programme to keep the power supply running to warm their toes during winter?????!!

and that is relevant how?

[Lim till i die]

Don't know how you can say fair play to them. It is a calculated ploy to raise tensions. They are deliberately trying to up the anti in all this. And the fact that they are running a competition to get these cartoons highlights their contempt for Western society!


It will only raise tensions if the west is shown up for its hypocrisy about the whole issue and reacts ;)

As for contempt, get a history book, read it, then talk about Irans contempt

[Tired&Emotional]

and that is relevant how?


Their mentality....:rolleyes:

[Tired&Emotional]

It will only raise tensions if the west is shown up for its hypocrisy about the whole issue and reacts ;)

As for contempt, get a history book, read it, then talk about Irans contempt

I'll reserve judgement so until we see the outcome of any cartoons they print.
As for history etc. Iran maybe an politically experimetal Muslim nation but the point remains that their contempt for the cartoons and there reaction is still infantile and opportunist.

http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Iran/194374

[Roverstillidie]

Their mentality....:rolleyes:

their mentality of saying 'well if they are only cartoons, you wont mind us doing them about something you are sensitive about?

or their mentality of being smelly little coloured terrorists?

[Tired&Emotional]

their mentality of saying 'well if they are only cartoons, you wont mind us doing them about something you are sensitive about?

or their mentality of being smelly little coloured terrorists?


Do I have to draw you a picture?;)

[Peadar]

There was an outcry about how dare
they do such a thing in a catholic country etc

Yeah, I remember it well. Massive public protests with men dressed as IRA foot soldiers, waving signs with "Annihilate bookies" and "Bookies, your 9/11 is coming." :rolleyes:

[anto1208]

see the same paper has printed a pic of hitler in bed with anne frank saying " put that in your diary anne " !!!! .

they say its to proove that europe still has sore points that you should nt joke about before every one gets on there high horse about the musilums getting upset .but i think if people are offended they ll pick up the phone and complain ,
no emmbassy's will get burnt down , no one will get shot , no one will get treatened !! . if there was even a protest id be surprised .

[Roverstillidie]

Yeah, I remember it well. Massive public protests with men dressed as IRA foot soldiers, waving signs with "Annihilate bookies" and "Bookies, your 9/11 is coming." :rolleyes:

you may mock peader, but religious violence is not all that distant a memory in this country. catholic churches were firebombed last year.
and bear in mind there are areas in the north that you cannot see brokeback mountain. abortion clinics and gay bars are bobmed and shot up is the states. ugandan paramilitary groups recruit children to fight in the name of jesus.
its not unique to islam.
im not for a second going to defend burning embassies, but we are only 30 years ahead of them in dublin.

anto, an american teenager just got shot by the cops for blasting a gay bar. are you seriously trying to tell me we react all that differently? itss a rule of law issue, not a religious one