New clubs

[pineapple stu]

How's this going to work? The new format allows for a top non-league side to challenge the bottom First Division team. Raises some interesting questions...

(a) Who decides this team? Do random clubs apply and whoever finished higher in the regional senior league gets chosen? How do you judge 5th in the LSL and 5th in the MSL?
(b) Will anybody take this up? There were no applications for membership to the league at the AGM. This is nothing new. It'll be even more awkward to move from non-league to league with the seasons running at different times. Will one team gain an advantage due to timings? (e.g. league team tired after a long season while the non-league side is just starting its season).
(c) If the non-league side wins, do they then pull out of their league, which they'd have already started? What happens the league team - are they to be left without a game until the new non-league season starts the following August?

[Poor Student]

I'd imagine it goes along the lines of teams applying and generally being assessed on non-sporting criteria such as stadium, finances, budgets etc.

Your last question poses something obvious which never occured to me before and I have no good answer.

That article in the Ire on Sunday disturbingly mentioned both divisions could be cut down to 10. Are two teams for the chopping block entirely?

[1 9 2 8]

Are two teams for the chopping block entirely?
Kildare and Home Farm:D

[pineapple stu]

That article in the Ire on Sunday disturbingly mentioned both divisions could be cut down to 10.
Don't know where you got that from, but it's not there anyway.

[Poor Student]

Don't know where you got that from, but it's not there anyway.

Really? Maybe I read it wrong, it was this morning.:o

[Buller]

No i dont think so...:o
I read the same thing in todays news of the world paper

[sniffa]

The statement made in the News of the World is a comment made by the writer. Note the word MAY.
The very next paragraph is Delaney stating that the FAI are not in the business of putting clubs out of business.

[Speranza]

Regarding clubs looking to join the league Leterkenny Rovers announced that they are to sell their current ground and build a new one. They stated their ultimate goal is to join the eL.

Harps fans were genuinly nervous about this last week because it is likely Rovers will have building commenced ontheir ground before Harps do on their site in Stranorlar. There is a huge untapped market in the town that could be brought into the eL if a club were on their doorstep. Rovers for the Donegal franchise???

[Kildare Lad]

Will there be 2 teams chopped from the league then? What will happen to them?

[Student Mullet]

Did the genesis report not call for a 30 team league in 2007? What happened to that?

[Dodge]

same thing as the "further study" that genesis called for

[dcfcsteve]

(a) Who decides this team? Do random clubs apply and whoever finished higher in the regional senior league gets chosen? How do you judge 5th in the LSL and 5th in the MSL?

Good questions. They'll need to provide clarity on this.


(b) Will anybody take this up? There were no applications for membership to the league at the AGM.

The fact there were no applications to join at the AGM is irrelevant. Firstly - if there are no upcoming slots available, it would be highly unlikely that a club would seek election at the expense of an existing member. The gamble involved in getting their facilities up to scratch, funding and a team in-place etc etc, with no guarantee of getting voted-in, is just far too big a risk for a junior club to take. Secondly - every single time the League has sought new members previously, it has always been able to find them. 11 new clubs have joined since 1984 - including 6 at one time in 1985/6 - and there has never been a single year where the league has had a league slot empty through lack of suitors. Therefore - why should there suddenly be a lack of interested parties now if slots were to arise ? Particularly at a time when the League is healthier than it has been in decades ? It is well known that the 2 Mullingar teams have been keen to join, with one of them actively applying for membership only 3 years ago. There were also news reports of businessmen in Letterkenny looking to have a team in the league. I have no doubt that, if the slots became available, more interested parties would surface. Historically, they have consistently done so.


It'll be even more awkward to move from non-league to league with the seasons running at different times. Will one team gain an advantage due to timings? (e.g. league team tired after a long season while the non-league side is just starting its season).
(c) If the non-league side wins, do they then pull out of their league, which they'd have already started? What happens the league team - are they to be left without a game until the new non-league season starts the following August?

This will obviously need addressing. The main issue is not one of clubs having any advantage re timings - but one of sheer synchonicity and logistics. Also - if the leagues are out of synch timing-wise, then there may also be the issue of having no timely correlation between success and participation :

1) Junior Team X wins the MSL 2004/5 title in May 2005, and makes its desire to join the EL known.
2) At end of the EL season (Dec 2005), the weakest EL team gets voted out. Team X is voted to take their place.
3) Team X would therefore have to decide when to drop-out of their 2005/6 MSL season in order to be ready for the new EL season in March 2006.
4) This would therefore leave Team X's Junior league a team short for a chunk of their year.
5) Furthermore - in the intervening period between Team X winning the MSL in May 2005, and being elected to join the EL in the middle of the following season (Dec 2005), they are no longer the best team in the MSL - and are languishing in mid-table.

In reality, Point 5 above is 'just one of those things'. Summer football creates a similar problem for us in Europe - we decide in Autumn, at the end of one season, who will represent us in Europe in the middle of the next season, in the following Summer. We've seen big slumps in league performances arise across that intervening period (e.g. Bohs, Longford, Shels).

Ascension to the senior ranks having the potential to muck-up junior league schedules will need to be ironed out somehow. If the FAI do a good job of this whole process (and we can all be cynical) then rising to Senior status will be more and more 'understandable/acceptable'. E.g. If an English Conference club was given the chance to join the Football League mid-season, I suspect their peers would understand if they accepted it. They would doubtless be jealous and miffed about the impact on their schedules, but it's be a perfectly understandable thing for the Conference club to do.

[carrickharp]

Regarding clubs looking to join the league Leterkenny Rovers announced that they are to sell their current ground and build a new one.

Heard their current ground Leckview Park is worth €5 million which they plan to sell to devolpers and build a new Stadium.

[LFC in Exile]

The other problem is that everyone focuses on the MSl and LSL. These are ork and Dublin leagues respectively. For example there are no MSl teasm in Limerick, Waterford or Tipperary. However, the top clubs in any of these leagues are on a par with the top in the MSL (maybe not LSL but oly because of Dublin's significantly larger catchment area). St Michael's in Tipp have fantastic facilities. Pike Rovers in Limerick also have better facilities than most MSL teams. However, these clubs are junior only becaus eof their location and the lack of an intermediate league in their area.

So, now how are the round-robin teams decided? And the FAI Cups can't really be used - surely no football person believes that the best teams win the Cup?

[Jerry The Saint]

The real problem is with the clubs who have been mentioned as possible applicants for this play-off. Mullingar (x2) - unnecessary surely in a league that has teams from Athlone and Longford; ditto for Letterkenny with Harps. And many of the other big clubs in non-league are based in Dublin, Limerick, Cork. Just shows the typical twisted thinking of the FAI when they would float the idea to demote/disband clubs on the grounds of "potential support", while at the same time seeking to promote even smaller clubs from small catchment areas or locations that are already well-served.:rolleyes:

[Risteard]

Kerry and Mayo would surely be best positioned, with their involvement in the League Cup and
their own large catchment areas.

[tomsoc]

I think Mayo are gone and from what I hear it'll be unlikely if they'll make a return. Better off trying to get one of the bigger clubs to join than a messy representative side anyway.
Ironically, Mayo should be the area best suited to produce an eL team, since they've been playing summer football for years.

I don't know what the situation is with the Kerry League but they didn't take part in the League Cup this year so they too seem to have taken a step back.

[Terry]

Castlebar Celtic have a nice little ground, 400 seated stand..etc. would suit first division starting off. Gavin Dykes is manager there too along with some other former eircom league representives at the club, so surely they wouldnt have to much of a problem acclimatising to senior football?

[Poor Student]

These are ork and Dublin leagues respectively.

Freudian slip?;)

[NY Hoop]

Under NO circumstances should any club be admitted to the league for the foreseeable future. This should be obvious:rolleyes:

Firstly we have a "club" already in the league with no fans, spiralling debts and no plans to ever have a home ground so why would the league admit entrance to another club?

Unless I cant believe its not home farm are rightly told to fcuk off and stop wasting everyones time and are replaced by a club that does not have a senior team in their county e.g. Kerry or Mayo. This new club MUST have decent facilities and potential support however.

KOH

[drummerboy]

What about St james Gate, who have really good facilities and are now plying their trade in the LSL

[Breifne]

Unless I cant believe its not home farm are rightly told to fcuk off and stop wasting everyones time and are replaced by a club that does not have a senior team in their county e.g. Kerry or Mayo.

How can someone who has a signature "Join the NLSA to have a voice in Irish football." come out with such an outrageous comment.

[pineapple stu]

1) Junior Team X wins the MSL 2004/5 title in May 2005, and makes its desire to join the EL known.
2) At end of the EL season (Dec 2005), the weakest EL team gets voted out. Team X is voted to take their place.
3) Team X would therefore have to decide when to drop-out of their 2005/6 MSL season in order to be ready for the new EL season in March 2006.
4) This would therefore leave Team X's Junior league a team short for a chunk of their year.
5) Furthermore - in the intervening period between Team X winning the MSL in May 2005, and being elected to join the EL in the middle of the following season (Dec 2005), they are no longer the best team in the MSL - and are languishing in mid-table.
But where does the actual play-off come into this? My understanding is that the junior team will have to right to "challenge" the bottom First Division team, meaning that a play-off will have to be played. Which means nothing will be decided until the start of December.

[pineapple stu]

How can someone who has a signature "Join the NLSA to have a voice in Irish football." come out with such an outrageous comment.
You're right - duly noted.

The purpose of the NLSA is to represent fans of all 22 eircom League clubs. Calling for one to be kicked out - like them or loathe them - makes you no better than the FAI...

[Roverstillidie]

What about St james Gate, who have really good facilities and are now plying their trade in the LSL

financial irregularities that would make the italians blush. no-one complained when they asked to be removed.

[hamish]

I'd imagine that MulligarTown and Athletic would have to amalgamate to get a chance to join. Rangers and Celtic amalgamating is more likely to happen.:D
Portlaoise have a good set up and Tullamore have a nifty ground. I still think that, in the long term a Mayo County and Kerry County club could be created - something similar to the Kildare County set up.
What about a Wexford County team too - huge footie set up there and loads of clubs.
Tipperary is another county worth checking out but all the above are for the future and would require investment from a number of sources.

[Dodge]

financial irregularities that would make the italians blush. no-one complained when they asked to be removed.
Especially when their benefactors got involved with Rovers...

[hamish]

The more I think about this folks the more possibilities and, ok, problems present themselves.
Aren't Harps really a Donegal County team in all but name??? Wouldn't a Letterkenny club not affect attendances for both themselves and Harps if the former got elected into the EL as well as damage the sponsorship options?

How about a bit of blue sky thinking. Let's take Tipperay for example, How about if a Tipperary County team playing games in Clonmel, Cooke Park and Peake Villa's ground in Thurles? Register the three of them as home grounds. Peake are doing great work in improving their set up while Clonmel and St. Michael's already have fine grounds.
Ditto a Mayo County team playing in either of the Castlebar grounds, Ballina, Ballyglass and Manulla - all amazing grounds.
Offaly County could play in Tullamore while Kerry County could alternate between Tralee and Killarney.
Laoise County could base themselves in Portlaoise while Wexford County could use their best grounds in Wexford, New Ross and Enniscorthy.
When Athlone were in the premier Division in the 90s we played Northend United from Wexford in the Leinster Cup and had a devil of a job beating them. I was amazed at the fine players they had and can't understand why a few of them weren't snapped up by say, Waterford, Bray or Kilkenny. (Kildare County didn't exist then). No disrespect to Cork City but didn't Kevin Doyle start his football in Wexford and wasn't there another chap from Wexford with Celtic a few years ago?
Meath County could play in either Patkvilla's ground in Navan and/or Trim Celtic and/or the MDL ground on the Trim Road.

There's nothing really new about a club playing in different grounds. Have Lille in France two grounds in their city and are playing European ties in Paris - the latter a 250 mile round trip:eek: ??

This is where the FA! could work with Government funding to help the locals with developing senior sides in their areas.

It would also cement the relationship between local Junior football (people, clubs, fans) and Eircom League.

If you take the rugby example, the four provinces are effectively clubs now and Munster play in Cork and Limerick, Leinster in Donnybrook and the RDS. Unfortunately, this has hammered the AIL leagues but my plan would INVOLVE the local clubs and local leagues. You could tie in the FAI Regional Academies with all these and it would, in time, do away with players from the provinces having to travel to sign up with top Dublin schoolboy clubs - they could now play EL with the own area side instead.

This would be a long term plan of course. I just don't think there are enough big towns with either the local resources (sponsorship, fan base etc) to join the EL. Therefore a county or area system is the best option.

Some towns will never be big enough to support an EL club. Remember Newcastlewest? Since they left the EL, they now have a huge set up and have loads of teams.
My home town, Beeslow, have a good set up with colour TV floodlighting, stand and loads of other facilities but we would never be able to finance an EL side. We could, however, operate in a Roscommon County set up with games here, the Ros Leagues new ground on the Athlone road and in Castlerea Celtic's fine ground.

There are many other cases like us. Even if you could join the two Mullingar clubs (highly unlikely) I still think that town, by itself, would not support an EL club. Athlone Town mightn't be happy but a Westmeath County club, using both Birr Town and both Mullingar grounds might work.

Future EL plans must be long term and involve the thriving Junior and Intermediate associations and clubs.

That's why the current "new" EL set up must be bedded down and sorted out before bringing in new members.

[Schumi]

a Mayo County team playing in... Manulla - all amazing grounds.You mean there's actually something in Manulla other than the god-forsaken train junction? :eek:

[Terry]

I think Sir Hamish should be incharge of the decision making when it comes down to the wire on who should be allowed challenge to enter the league ! Theres no way anyone in the FAI could come up with anything as good as that.

[Rory H]

I think Sir Hamish should be incharge of the decision making when it comes down to the wire on who should be allowed challenge to enter the league ! Theres no way anyone in the FAI could come up with anything as good as that.



watch out sligoman....you have competition;)

[hamish]

You mean there's actually something in Manulla other than the god-forsaken train junction?

Schumi - honest to God, they have a sensational set up there. They have two superb pitches, a stand with loads of seats, massive in-ground parking, training pitches, floodlighting and a great club house with all the mod cons.
Actually, their club badge incorporates the railways line along with Manulla's history in it. It's a very clever and well thought-out crest.

Manulla is about 6 miles from Castlebar and also close to Bal and Claremorris etc so has a good catchment area too.:)

BTW, I heard on RTE radio some bloke mentioning that another Cork side would be good for the EL.:eek: for local derbies etc Is he insane or what. :mad: Cork City might have City as their name but I know loads of folks who travel from Mallow, Bandon and elsewhere in the county to support them. Forming another club in Cork would be suicide just like having two Donegal county clubs.
Why fix something when it isn't broken????

I'm dead keen on this aspect of the future of the EL and have talked with loads of people at all levels of the game throughout the country over many years and I made my above suggestions because thus far there is a yawning gap between the EL and other levels of the game in Ireland. The relationship is not frosty or anything - both levels just seem to have little to communicate about at the moment thus my reasons for the county solutions where applicable.

There are talented people at Junior levels who would put many of the officials in EL to shame in terms of ability, vision, drive and financial clout. Why not bring them on board and have them work together for the common good of football in the island.

In time, if my plan were to come to fruition, we could then go a step further and have an All Ireland Premier League with a First division - divided into areas or zones - of thriving, well organised clubs.
Look at the success of the Conference in England - you have the Primary Division with, just beneath that, a thriving North and South section and attendances in all three divisions are growing every year even of they're not massive in every club's case but they're nearly all financially sound and many fans are involved in running them.

This thread is the type that really excites and motivates me about football in Ireland, TBH.

[Schumi]

Schumi - honest to God, they have a sensational set up there. They have two superb pitches, a stand with loads of seats, massive in-ground parking area,training pitches, floodlighting and a great club house with all the mod cons.Is this far from the train junction? I've only ever been there in the dark and there's nothing visible at all. You may as well be on the moon!

[dcfcsteve]

Aren't Harps really a Donegal County team in all but name??? Wouldn't a Letterkenny club not affect attendances for both themselves and Harps if the former got elected into the EL as well as damage the sponsorship options?

There is only room for one senior team in Donegal. The businessmen behind the idea of a League team in Letterkenny are well aware of that. Their preferred route would reportedly be to shift Harps to Letterkenny, but Harps believe that their future is better served building a spanking new stadium in a two-bob village in the middle of nowhere, rather than teaming-up with rich investors to build one only 13miles away in one of Europe's fastest growing towns. Hmmm - tough choice...

The Letterkenny Business guys, however, were also reported as willing to progress regardless of any Harp's interest, and apparently are in talks with Fanad united (very successful Intermediate team) re moving them to Letterkenny. Maybe this Letterkenny Rovers news is part of the whole thing.

But back to my opening point. There is only room for one senior team in Donegal. If a club from a fast-growing town like Letterkenny did enter the league with the backing of wealthy businessmen, then time would see one of them and Harps disappearing. And whilst Harps are my second team - I suspect it would be them....

[atfconline]

I think Sir Hamish should be incharge of the decision making when it comes down to the wire on who should be allowed challenge to enter the league ! Theres no way anyone in the FAI could come up with anything as good as that.

Indeed, just once he remembers where he came from when he was doing it up! ;)

[hamish]

There is only room for one senior team in Donegal. The businessmen behind the idea of a League team in Letterkenny are well aware of that. Their preferred route would reportedly be to shift Harps to Letterkenny, but Harps believe that their future is better served building a spanking new stadium in a two-bob village in the middle of nowhere, rather than teaming-up with rich investors to build one only 13miles away in one of Europe's fastest growing towns. Hmmm - tough choice...

The Letterkenny Business guys, however, were also reported as willing to progress regardless of any Harp's interest, and apparently are in talks with Fanad united (very successful Intermediate team) re moving them to Letterkenny. Maybe this Letterkenny Rovers news is part of the whole thing.

But back to my opening point. There is only room for one senior team in Donegal. If a club from a fast-growing town like Letterkenny did enter the league with the backing of wealthy businessmen, then time would see one of them and Harps disappearing. And whilst Harps are my second team - I suspect it would be them....

You're absolutely spot on Steve. I remember Swilly Rovers AND Fanad making EL applications over the years. How far is Fanad from Letterkenny??Isn't Trialoch (probably didn't spell their ground name right but it's something like that) right beside the sea??
This type of topic fascinates me though. Would there be resistance in Fanad to "moving" the club to Letterkenny??? Could you not have a situation like Kildare County who play in Newbridge Town's ground and the latter still function succesfully as well??

What about Buncrana and Inishowen too? How would they fit in to the picture?? Do Derry City draw many fans fro the Inishowen area??
Any information you have about all that would be fascinating.

Now, I'm really on a roll. LOL I love this kind of topic, y'know, finding out the ins and outs of a club and it's hinterland, relationship with same and so and so on.

For example, do Derry City get many fans from the county? - I know the county is regarded as a Gah area but there appears to be plenty of local football clubs too.

Back to Donegal, my spell in schools footie thought me how fcuking big Donegal is. Those involved with Carndonagh CS used to tell me that it took them 1 and half hours to reach the Sligo border - the county is so long., How does that affect Harps support?? Where does the bulk of Harps support come from?

[hamish]

I think Sir Hamish should be incharge of the decision making when it comes down to the wire on who should be allowed challenge to enter the league ! Theres no way anyone in the FAI could come up with anything as good as that.

Thanks Terry but I'm really only repeating ideas from chatting to loads of good football people like yourself and Tommy Shields.
To give credit to Galway United they have made huge efforts to build up a fan base throughout the county. When Fergus O'Neill from Glen Celtic (Glenmaddy) played for United my mate Billy Brogan from that club used to organise busloads of people to Terryland games and was very proud of the fact that one of his club was playing EL with the county EL club. He then even started to come to St. Mel's to see Athlone v Galway games.
Do you see where I'm coming from? Once a talented bloke from Junior level like Billy has a connection he starts to support his local EL club. Billy is also a very successful businessman (Brogans Bakeries) too.

Ditto Sligo Rovers. I know that Chris Rutherford and Willy McStay used to make great efforts to get the folks from Tubbercurry United and other Junior clubs to associate themselves with Rovers. Isn't that true sligoman?

We did like wise with Athlone and got loads of players from Westmeath, Roscommon (Shane Curran, Harry Costelloe etc, Offaly (Steven Grant etc), East Galway (David Moran, Dessie Hope etc), North Tipperary (Donal Golden etc) and so on. Jimmy Greene always made anyone interested very welcome with the club. (I mean, they made me welcome - that's how nice they are LOL:D )

This is a fcuking brilliant thread - keep the ideas coming. Besides it'll keep me away from Tottyland:D - and that can only be a good thing.

[hamish]

Indeed, just once he remembers where he came from when he was doing it up!

I'll never forget my never ending Athlone Town love affair atfconline - sending you a PM tonight - will you be there??:D

BTW - I'm cleaning out the back room (the ceiling collapsed last night:eek: :D and should have those press releases soon. You still want them??

[Bluebeard]

Funnily enough, I do believe in the concept of two teams from the city of Cork - bring back either Hibs or the Alberts - best named Cork teams EVER!

Seriously, there appear to be plans underway on the part of Mick Wallace to build a footballing empire in Wexford - I think that there is meant to be an amazing football development somewhere possibly between Enniscorthy and Gorey on the rise. Wexford has always been a hotbed of football; North-End and Ross Celtic used to have really fine teams at different times, and the youths teams have done very well lately. I suspect that Wallace will be joining the league with a team probably within 5 years.

Otherwise, Pike Rovers would be an addition, though I wouldn't like them at the expense of Limerick, Sir Hamish's Manulla Wonders sound promising, as the sport has taken off there in a major way. There is becoming a need for a Mullingar team, as that town becomes a commuter blimp. I think a team in Tipperary wouldn't be a bad thing either (what was the cause of death for Thurles Town 1977-1982?).

[hamish]

Is this far from the train junction? I've only ever been there in the dark and there's nothing visible at all. You may as well be on the moon!

Schumi, I honestly don't know. All I know about Manulla is that, coming from Claremorris, you turn right at the blue sign that says "Manulla FC", head into a tint village where you turn right again and head up a winding lane to that superb ground. There's another road to the ground too on the Claremorris-Castlebar road but it's on a bend and a bit dangerous.

Like Athlone Town, the people involved with Manulla re the friendliest people you could meet and when you consider that Manulla is basically a town land it speaks volumes for the people involved with the club that they've developed such a tremendous set up

[Na Chlairsigh]

To answer the questions regarding Harps and Donegal soccer, it's clear that there can only be one team in the county. Harps have enough trouble as it is trying to generate sponsership and finances with just one senior club, if another were to join (can't see it happening) then it would be extremely difficult to substain both.

I doubt that Fanad would move to Letterkenny, I can't see it happening at all. Trialough is about 40 minutes away from Letterkenny so there is no question of them "relocating", besides the fact that they've just spent the past few years doing up their ground with floodlights and covered standing. (and to answer your question, yes it's about 100 metres from the North Atlantic and about 50 feet from a lake that if you kick the ball over the bar it'll have a chance of getting wet) also the whole population of Fanad would make Ballybofey look like a booming metreotropolis.

Letterkenny is a different story, if rumours are to be belived about these wealthy businessmen, it would be Letterkenny Rovers that would be the preferred applicant.

As for moving Harps, some people kicked up a huge fuss of moving one mile across the river, so upping 13 miles to Letterkenny looks highly unlikely. I doubt that many teams would be willing to leave their hometown, even if it is a "two-bob village"

[dcfcsteve]

You're absolutely spot on Steve. I remember Swilly Rovers AND Fanad making EL applications over the years. How far is Fanad from Letterkenny??Isn't Trialoch (probably didn't spell their ground name right but it's something like that) right beside the sea?? This type of topic fascinates me though. Would there be resistance in Fanad to "moving" the club to Letterkenny??? Could you not have a situation like Kildare County who play in Newbridge Town's ground and the latter still function succesfully as well??


Fanad are up at the tip of Inishowen, on the Atlantic - you'll hear Fanad Head mentioned in the shipping forecast. It's about 20 miles from Letterkenny on rather rural roads.

I'd expect there would be opposition if any club was being asked to move to another location by anyone - particularly by outside interests. Fanad wouldn't realistically have a hope in hell of surviving as a senior club where they are, so if they had ambitions along those lines it would necessitate moving. Though I'm not sure if they do want to go senior or not.


What about Buncrana and Inishowen too? How would they fit in to the picture?? Do Derry City draw many fans fro the Inishowen area?? Any information you have about all that would be fascinating.

For example, do Derry City get many fans from the county? - I know the county is regarded as a Gah area but there appears to be plenty of local football clubs too.

This is an area that interests me a lot. Derry City don't get much support from elsewhere in the County, and I've often pondered why that is- particularly when people like Cork City get a lot of support from 'up the county'. I've concluded that it's to do with historical roots, ties and 'hinterland'. Cork City's historical hinterland is Cork county, so it's natural that they would get support from there. However - the city of derry's hinterland has historically been more Inishowen and east Donegal (Letterkenny to Lifford), and north west Tyrone (Strabane area), than it has County Derry. Therefore - we have fans in places like Buncrana and Strabane - but you'll struggle to find any in Limavady, and particularly in towns further to the east of the county (Dungiven, Magherafelt, Maghera). This is partly to do with 'religion' (e.g. lack of fans in Limavady and Coleraine), and party to do with soccer v GAA (e.g. Maghera and Dungiven). But the one over-riding bit is that the historical ties between the city and county of Derry are nowhere near as strong as they are between the city and East Donegal. This was particularly prevalent in the 1980's when we had fan clubs throughout Inishowen, Strabane, Lifford, Letterkenny etc.


Back to Donegal, my spell in schools footie thought me how fcuking big Donegal is. Those involved with Carndonagh CS used to tell me that it took them 1 and half hours to reach the Sligo border - the county is so long., How does that affect Harps support?? Where does the bulk of Harps support come from?

Donegal is the 2nd biggest county in Ireland (after Cork). It is also the most remote, and for its size has the worst road network. Furthermore, its edges are fringed by numerous peninsulas and bays, whilst its interior is full of Highlands. It's therefore a fecker of a county to get around full-stop ! It can take up to about 80mins to drive from Derry to Bundoran, and Carndonagh would add another 20mins or so onto that. Though the new roads round Letterkenny have chopped journey times loads.

On a separate but related issue - I've often entertained the romantic notion of an 'An Gaeltacht' team in the EL. A team made-up of Irish-speaking footballers, alternating home games between Donegal, Galway and Kerry, and looking to tap into Irish speaking support from anywhere in the country. It'd obviously never work on so many levels, but is a great wee dream :D Would be nice to have football properly 'as gaeilge' somewhere in Ireland.

[Speranza]

SirHamish, we have a good number of fans from Strabane in Co Tyrone as do Harps.

To my knowledge people from Co. Derry don't tend to support City, there are obviously a few but nothing big enough to have SC's organised.

Derry is a city of approx 120,000 and trying to get them to the Brandy is hard enough never mind the GAA driven county ones. Pretty happy with our average attendance of around 2,500 last year when viewed in relation to other eL figures.

**Sorry Steve didn't see your post before I typed this**

[dcfcsteve]

As for moving Harps, some people kicked up a huge fuss of moving one mile across the river, so upping 13 miles to Letterkenny looks highly unlikely. I doubt that many teams would be willing to leave their hometown, even if it is a "two-bob village"

If a Letterkenny team does enter the league, then I suspet the decision will be taken out of Harps hands for them.

The writing is on the wall now regarding the future direction of Irish football, and its going to be in-favour of population centres. In the light of that, Harps fans may find their short-sightedness regrading a 13mile shift is the thing that eventually destroys senior football for the club they love. Being objective, it is hard to come to any other conclusion.

[hamish]

Funnily enough, I do believe in the concept of two teams from the city of Cork - bring back either Hibs or the Alberts - best named Cork teams EVER!

Seriously, there appear to be plans underway on the part of Mick Wallace to build a footballing empire in Wexford - I think that there is meant to be an amazing football development somewhere possibly between Enniscorthy and Gorey on the rise. Wexford has always been a hotbed of football; North-End and Ross Celtic used to have really fine teams at different times, and the youths teams have done very well lately. I suspect that Wallace will be joining the league with a team probably within 5 years.

Otherwise, Pike Rovers would be an addition, though I wouldn't like them at the expense of Limerick, Sir Hamish's Manulla Wonders sound promising, as the sport has taken off there in a major way. There is becoming a need for a Mullingar team, as that town becomes a commuter blimp. I think a team in Tipperary wouldn't be a bad thing either (what was the cause of death for Thurles Town 1977-1982?).

I've never met the man but he has a fantastic reputation in both business and football and looks cool too.:D This is the kind of bloke Irish football needs.

It doesn't mean that everyone from Junior levels is brilliant either. Didn't Michael Hyland and Bernard O'Byrne have a lot to do with the development of the superb AUL set up in Clonshaugh? Sadly, they didn't cut it too well at EL level when they did "move up". I'll forgive O'Byrne the Eircom League situation. I do know that his financial plans for that ground were flying until that cnut Bertie Aherne pulled the rug from under him.

BTW what's happened to O'Byrne at Pats? Hasn't bedded in well there TBH has he? I honestly feel that his period with the FAI and the manner of his exit from same has destroyed his confidence and he's just not the same man anymore sadly. I've heard that through the grapevine too. I have a horrible feeling Brian Kerr will have a terrible job to get him self together for a future involvement even a EL level should he try to manage a club.

Some people can come back from blows like the above - some people are permanently damaged. Sad but true. One thing I found with O'Byrne - if I was p!ssed off about something related to the FAI (surprise, surprise:D ) you could b0llack the sh!te out of him and he'd listen and he was immensely supportive too TBF. Maybe others have found him difficult and dissapointing but TBH that's how I found him.

Maybe the Pats folk can enlighten us.:confused:

Whe I referred to Mahulla BTW i menat the club AS PART of a Mayo County set up. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

From what I can remember, Thurles Town had very few local players (some allright but not many) and they joined when the EL was really in much worse shape than it is now. They were also unfortunate that the local sugar factory closed at the same time plus a number of local business folded so there wasn't much finance available locally to fund the club. Peake Villa are flying though and I think Thurles FC are still going but only as a Junior club.

Pike have a great set up but TWO Limerick clubs?? Can't see that being successful TBH Bluebird. Maybe, like Newcastle and Beeslow, they're better remaining a hugely successful Junior club. Besides, wouldn't Pike, like Ballynanty, Fairview onoly represent a certain area of Limerick??? This brings me back to my points above. The successful local Junior clubs in an area should be involved with Limerick FC and vice versa. Maybe it's already happening. You Limerick posters will know that - didn't Limerick play in Pike's fine ground a couple of season's back???

Yeah, you had great rivalry betweeb Cork Hibs and Celtic back in the 60s and 70s but Bluebeard you know yourself that you'd end up with one struggling Cork club and the other less successful with resources spread thinner. I'd be very wary about that. A few derbies are fine but generations have passed and I don't know how a second Cork club would fit in right now. Besides, didn't Alberts pull out a good few years ago after bravely keeping the LOI flag flying for a while - didn't they change their name after a couple of seasons to Cork United??

[hamish]

Thank you so much Steve and Na Clairsigh for all that data. I was never in Fanad's ground but saw a film of it when they were in the Cup a few years ago and you could see the sea just over the boundary. I hope they had a boat handy to retrieve those footballs. LOL:D

Fascinating to hear the history of that plan to move Harps to Letterkenny. It's amazing the perspective one gets from people FROM the area as opposed to the bland sh!te - often poorly researched - by the media. I had a fair idea of the Derry county/city situation and always suspected that Inishowen would be more inclined to regard Derry as theri club rather than Harps.

Very similar situation as regards Beeslow. Absolutely no offence to Galway United but we would be more inclined to regard Athlone as our local club even though Beeslow is on the Galway/Roscommon border. Athlone is only 16 miles away and there is a long soccer history involving the two towns.

When we got footie going at under age levels here (again) in the late 60s, Athlone's entry to the LOI gave football a massive boost ahnd we played in many Athlone and Midlands Leagues. It was a geography thing really. Many here to worked in Athlone (and vice versa), many from the town intermarried and were in the army so there is a historical, business and social connection. TBH back then (BUT NOT NOW) the Galway city clubs didn't really want the likes of Beeslow 'cos it was too far away.

Isn't it amazing how local hostory influences the way clubs develop, interconnect etc. That's what I find the Derry/Harps/Letterkenny/Inishowen
situation fascinating.

I remember Jim Rhatigan telling me that fcuk all people involved in the Kilkenny Junior scene (players/officials etc) supported Kilkenny City. That'sa shame.

What about Waterford United? Do people from the rest of Louth (Ardee etc) support Drogheda and Dundalk??? Ditto Limerick?? I know that Longford are making great efforts to involve the county also. What about Bray and Wicklow county??? Monaghan United are also working hard at under age levels to bring more from the area into the club.

All fascinating information.

Question. Do the people involved with the FAI and EL know this information?? How can they make EL plans when they don't have a knowledge of the local scenes?? How many in the FAI - Junior and EL - work together?? Fcuk all from what I've seen in the past.

[hamish]

BTE Steve - I know about Fanad and the weather forecast thing? I used to be a geography teacher.:eek: :p :D LMAO.

You remind me of when Micky O'Connor was in his first spell as Town manager. Whenever we passed mountains en route to a match, he'd roar out loud at me (knowing he had the rest of the players as an audience) "C'mon Noel, you're supposed to be a geography teacher - you should know what mountains they are?" I'd pretend not to know and say - "those mountains? - not on the syllabus".LOL

[hamish]

If a Letterkenny team does enter the league, then I suspet the decision will be taken out of Harps hands for them.

The writing is on the wall now regarding the future direction of Irish football, and its going to be in-favour of population centres. In the light of that, Harps fans may find their short-sightedness regrading a 13mile shift is the thing that eventually destroys senior football for the club they love. Being objective, it is hard to come to any other conclusion.

Trouble is Steve we're running out of population centres big enough to support a club - that's why I suggested County clubs. Y'know. a club using one or more big towns as bases all right but with a county following. (Portlaoise as a base for Laoise County FC for example) Maybe we're saying the same thing, I suppose.

Brother in law was telling me lately that there is a catchment area of roughly 400,000 within an hour's drive of Athlone. That takes in Mullingar, Longford, Tullamore, Beeslow etc.

There are so many ways of looking at this it becomes more fascinating as we mull over it, doesn't it.

We should be running the FAI.:D

Before I forget what about Ennis, Clare and Shannon?? Anyone have any idea how that would pan out?? Or Carlow County??

[dcfcsteve]

Derry City v Finn Harps is probably the biggest derby outside of Dublin in terms of generating local media interest and attendance (though I'm sure the Cork v Waterford arguement will be made in its place). Even if Derry or Harps are both struggling, the game has consistently drawn a good solid crowd over the last 20 years running. When one or other or both are doing well, the attendance can be very strong.

However - I suspect strongly that a Derry v Letterkenny senior derby would be an even bigger draw. The rivalry with Harps is, to be fair, manufactured. However - there has always been a propoer sense of rivalry between Derry and Letterkenny as towns/places. People inter-mingle socially, with work, with family etc between the 2 places - unlike with Ballybofey. And increasingly so with the growth of Letterkenny in recent years. The ingredients are there for a huge rivalry.

[hamish]

Derry City v Finn Harps is probably the biggest derby outside of Dublin in terms of generating local media interest and attendance (though I'm sure the Cork v Waterford arguement will be made in its place). Even if Derry or Harps are both struggling, the game has consistently drawn a good solid crowd over the last 20 years running. When one or other or both are doing well, the attendance can be very strong.

However - I suspect strongly that a Derry v Letterkenny senior derby would be an even bigger draw. The rivalry with Harps is, to be fair, manufactured. However - there has always been a propoer sense of rivalry between Derry and Letterkenny as towns/places. People inter-mingle socially, with work, with family etc between the 2 places - unlike with Ballybofey. And increasingly so with the growth of Letterkenny in recent years. The ingredients are there for a huge rivalry.

Another thing too, the media in Donegal and Derry give great coverage to local footie as well. I think the Donegal League have a rule that each club MUST supply match reports/news etc or they're fined if they don't. Is that still the case???

As regards derbies, back in the 60s the "battle of the blues" between Limerick and Waterford was a real crowd puller. Was at a good few and they were tremendous affairs. Athlone v Galway are pretty polite affairs but there was a great rivalry between Athlone and Sligo Rovers in the past.

What about Kilkenny City and Waterford United?? Is there any friction when Cobh Ramblers and Cork City play? We know about Drogheda and Dundalk though. LOL

Funny you should say that Steve. Whenever I chatted with folks in the Ballybofey/Donegal town areas, they always stated that they felt the facilites for football where vastly superior in the north of the county than in the south. For example, St. Columba's College, Stranorlar play their games occasionally in Finn Park but usually in Finn Valley AC grounds 'cos they have no college grounds themselves. Even when schools interprovincials were held up there they also used Drumkeen United and Letterkenny for games as well as Finn Valley and Harps.

Bring it on lads - any more news from your local area. Any Tipp, Kerry and/or Wexford etc footypersons out there to add to this.