Leage AGM Debacle - No point in next Season

[JohnD]

Get this: (See below from Irishfootballonline.com)

This season coming is a waste. No Promotion !!!. Why would you want to play football if you cant achieve something on the pitch..What a Joke. May as well call the whoe thing off. It looks like whoever pays enough money to the FAI will get looked after. DD You can forget your season tickets now. There will nobody going to meaningless games...A FARCE. did our Club vote for this..if so shame on you :(
------------------------------------------------------

Reports coming out of the eircom League AGM mean that a whole host of the coming season's games will be meaningless.
Promotion and relegation will be done away with in favour of deciding 2007's structure on the basis of finances and marketability instead of actual ability with 2006's league placings playing an unspecified factor in that decision.

Reports also suggest that the vote achieved the required two-thirds majority at the AGM in Limerick today.

The move is bizarre and while the smaller clubs were expected to jump at the chance, it will most likely further damage the image of the game in this country with the idea that a team can now claim a place in the top flight regardless of how poorly they've performed in the league. The season ahead is likely to see a massive dent in attendance figures with television companies also less likely to be interested in anything other the top four or five sides in the premier division.

[Westside]

I wouldn't be as pessimistic as that John, theres still the 1st division title to play for, and you can understand now why DD is so anxious to get the lease / PD sorted out. if we can both sorted out soon, then our status will change dramatically. We can finally start work Hogan Park, and if PD does what he's paid to do then he will raise the profile of the club and sell his ideas to potential investors. Should all this at least start, this season then hopefully the Fai will recognise our potential (along with being the 3rd largest city in the country) and put us up there with the elite next season.
To say that this season is a farce is IMO wrong. The eircom league at present is a joke, the prize money for winning the Setanta Cup is nearly 3 times that for winning the Eircom Premier.(yes a tournament played over a few weeks is work more than a season long slog) Lets be fair about it, Finn Harps, UCD, and Dublin City are just yo-yo-ing up and down between the Premier / 1st Div. every year, or least most years anyway, nothing changes. At least if the so -called smaller clubs had to raise themselves to another level on and off the field then it will raise the competition thus making the league(s) far more competitive and good for the Fai and country aswell.

[LFC in Exile]

It seems absolutely ridiculous to have a football season with no promotion or relegation. Competition is the whole point of football - Westside, your signature is funny in light of your comments :).

I can see what is going on though. The FAI will take over the league and clubs will need to apply to be members. And then they will be divided up based on some unknown (as yet) criteria. It means that Limerick (given its potential) could be placed in the premier even if it does not finish in the top half. However, we do have a stronger negotiating position if we finish high in the league and that is what it is down to - negotiation with the FAI. (means Waterford's place is fairly safe too).

The most important thing this season is to get a lease from Hogan. All efforts should be geared at that - and in fact it needs to happen very quickly so that changes can happen at the ground. It will be very hard to get a premier license on promises.

I agree with John that it will be very hard to motivate fans to get out and support their clubs for games that might not have any bearing in the long run.

[LFC in Exile]

There is a discussion on the proposals here: http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=33069

Thinking about this I am not so sure that Limerick should be against it. According to Indo membership of the premier division will be decided like this: "All 22 clubs will apply for membership of the new FAI-run Eircom League and the FAI will use soon to be formulated selection criteria to decide which clubs it will put into the Premier Division with the rest making up the lower flight. League positions in 2006 will only form part of the criteria. The rest is likely to centre around facilities, business plans, level of support and marketability".

Also: "Under their proposal, the top two teams in the First Division would be ranked 11th and 12th in the League with the bottom two in the Premier Division ranked at 13th and 14th".

But -

"The First Division champions will be entitled to replace the bottom team in the Premier but only if they fulfil all the criteria needed to play in the top division. If they can't do that then the bottom team survives."

The question then is (if we were to finish top two) would we be better placed than UCD or Dublin City in terms of "facilities, business plans, level of support and marketability". Definitely yes on the latter three - and the first one is where we could fall down. Mr Hogan, give us the effing lease!:ball:

[gael353]

Mr Hogan, give us the effing lease!:ball:

Nothing to do with him its Fr Joe is our boy. To be honest if he doesnt sign it soon, id tell him where to go and get somewhere else ready for next season. I have two places if not three in mind after years of research and no the JACKS is not an option u listening o'shaughnassy? But we have a lease with Hill Celtic so we're safe for 4 more years but under "facilities" thing today we're going no where.

[Poor Student]

Lets be fair about it, Finn Harps, UCD, and Dublin City are just yo-yo-ing up and down between the Premier / 1st Div. every year, or least most years anyway, nothing changes. At least if the so -called smaller clubs had to raise themselves to another level on and off the field then it will raise the competition thus making the league(s) far more competitive and good for the Fai and country aswell.

UCD have spent 14 of the last 15 seasons in the Premier Division. How is that yo-yoing?:confused:

[pineapple stu]

Let's be fair about it, Finn Harps, UCD, and Dublin City are just yo-yo-ing up and down between the Premier / 1st Div. every year, or least most years anyway, nothing changes. At least if the so -called smaller clubs had to raise themselves to another level on and off the field then it will raise the competition thus making the league(s) far more competitive and good for the Fai and country aswell.
A few things -

(1) UCD are not a yo-yo club.
(2) At least being a yo-yo club is better than a club like Limerick (don't mean to offend or wind people up here - just stating facts) who have been in the First for ten years or so now. I don't see why they should be given a boost over better teams.
(3) You say "if the smaller clubs had to raise themselves to another level" - what's stopping them doing it now? Do you need to be promoted to the Premier before you start trying? Which would be better in the Premier - Bray or Limerick? Answer - Bray. Stronger side by far. Limerick would get hammered most weeks. How would that be good for the league?


"The First Division champions will be entitled to replace the bottom team in the Premier but only if they fulfil all the criteria needed to play in the top division. If they can't do that then the bottom team survives."

The question then is (if we were to finish top two) would we be better placed than UCD or Dublin City in terms of "facilities, business plans, level of support and marketability". Definitely yes on the latter three - and the first one is where we could fall down. Mr Hogan, give us the effing lease!
You're out on one important fact - this scenario will only arise from the 2007 season. By that stage, UCD and Dublin City would likely be relegated by the FAI anyway. Assuming you weren't selected for the Premier, you'd have to prove yourself better than someone who was explicitly selected for the Premier. Which, by definition, you couldn't do unless you made huge strides in the First Division. Which, let's face it, is hardly ever going to happen given the effort the FAI put into the First Division.

[Westside]

A few things -

(1) UCD are not a yo-yo club.
(2) At least being a yo-yo club is better than a club like Limerick (don't mean to offend or wind people up here - just stating facts) who have been in the First for ten years or so now. I don't see why they should be given a boost over better teams.
(3) You say "if the smaller clubs had to raise themselves to another level" - what's stopping them doing it now? Do you need to be promoted to the Premier before you start trying? Which would be better in the Premier - Bray or Limerick? Answer - Bray. Stronger side by far. Limerick would get hammered most weeks. How would that be good for the league?

Look I'm not trying offend anyone but in terms of the premier its usually the same 3 to 4 teams struggling to stay up and the same 1 to 3 trying to win it, of course Bray are a stronger side than us, why because the have all their structures in place, and again I'll say it "ON AND OFF THE FIELD", Limerick do not have along term lease as yet, if we get it soon then the potential is there.Eg. Cork went outta business in the mid 80's and look tt them now.As for UCD, Harps and D. City I wasn't poking fun at them I was just generalising, by saying the league has to become more competitive in the long term.

[Mental Man]

Personally i think its a great idea because it give clubs now the impetus "including our own" to get their act together both on and off field.
Clubs that do have their grounds and finances sorted out deserve to be in the premiere and that includes clubs in the first division.
I can see Athlone,Dundalk coming straight up if its implemented cos they have been doing sterling work and also our old nemesis Shamrock Rovers when they move into tallaght shortly, i passed by the way recently and crikey its gonna be some place.
Just heard on the radio yesterday here that the work is already ongoing at the RSC to bring it up to full UEFA spec and a new 800 seater stand is being built on the opposite of the ground with new offices, Floodlights, turnstiles,toilets etc..
So therefore its now looking like that we will be able to hold international matches there very shortly... happy days.

Lads whats the situation with Hogan park???
That could be your stumbling block?

[gael353]

The ground is owned by the Hogan Trust. An american family with limerick links brought in by fr joe young in 1992 to secure the ground from the Banks. They paid 28,000 pounds for it and put a trustee in place Fr Joe Young. In and around 2000, joe vanised to the states, and limerick moved out first to de jacks and later to the pike rovers field. We moved back in last year with a playing agreement from the squatting/resident junior club Hill Celtic in the belief that Fr Joe was going to sign over the lease which he promised he'd do. He at this time hasnt done so and is quoted of late as saying he is "mental termoil" as to what to do. Many belive a brown paper bag in his direction would be sufficent, i do not belive this. I have other ideas for him ;) Dealing with the hogans is not an option as they know the value of the site and would simply sell it for development.joe is our only option (at present) but due to yesterdays vote his signiture gains a more urgent inportance. i think every supporter should have a copy of the lease, put it into a programme and ask him to sign a carbon sheeted photo of himself and hea presto we're sorted :D

[LFC in Exile]

You're out on one important fact - this scenario will only arise from the 2007 season. By that stage, UCD and Dublin City would likely be relegated by the FAI anyway. Assuming you weren't selected for the Premier, you'd have to prove yourself better than someone who was explicitly selected for the Premier. Which, by definition, you couldn't do unless you made huge strides in the First Division. Which, let's face it, is hardly ever going to happen given the effort the FAI put into the First Division.

I don't tthink I am wrong (but it shows what we're dealing with when we cdon't even have this level of clarity. The proposals refer to the 2007 season i.e. the one afterthe season about to start. If we finish top two in 2006 and UCD/Dublin City finish bottom two in 2006, then we can have a case to make that we should replace UCD or Dublin City.

Two things do arise though. Would that mean that UCD and Dublin City are doomed forever to the First? If Limerick always finished bottom of premeir and UCD always finished top of first I presume the facilities (once put in place) and potential would always favour Limerick (just using these clubs as an example).

Also, the case for change is less clear cut the more it is examined. In Limerick's situation, for example, we have an incentive to invest in facilities and developing our potential - but that incentive exists irrespective of genesis or the FAI merger, simply because it makes financial sense.

[pineapple stu]

Personally i think its a great idea because it give clubs now the impetus "including our own" to get their act together both on and off field.
Have you not had this impetus for the past 75 years at all?


I don't tthink I am wrong (but it shows what we're dealing with when we cdon't even have this level of clarity. The proposals refer to the 2007 season i.e. the one afterthe season about to start. If we finish top two in 2006 and UCD/Dublin City finish bottom two in 2006, then we can have a case to make that we should replace UCD or Dublin City.
Wow! An intelligent post on the issue!

The Ireland on Sunday today seems to imply that only the bottom two teams in the Premier would be considered for replacement by the top two First Division teams, which I think is the same point you're making. This is fair enough - it's standard promotion and relegation. I don't have a problem punishing teams who are overspending or the likes. But more to the point, the facility to consider and deny if necessary promotion for the First Division clubs is already there under UEFA Licencing. Why the need to vote it in again?


Two things do arise though. Would that mean that UCD and Dublin City are doomed forever to the First? If Limerick always finished bottom of premeir and UCD always finished top of first I presume the facilities (once put in place) and potential would always favour Limerick (just using these clubs as an example).
I think the best you can say is that the potential is there for this to be the case. This obviously is wrong. I suppose the cynic would also point out that the FAI now reserve the right to save whoever they want from relegation, provided there's enough nudge-nudge. And let's be honset - that's common currency in Merrion Square.

[Poor Student]

The Ireland on Sunday today seems to imply that only the bottom two teams in the Premier would be considered for replacement by the top two First Division teams, which I think is the same point you're making. This is fair enough - it's standard promotion and relegation.



Did you read the article or are you just going by my text? It was a bit hard to explain. The article seems to be contradictary in suggesting 3 different things. One is that the FAI reserve the right to refuse the top two clubs in the First Division a place in the new top flight. Secondly it points out the top flight will probably be cut back to ten teams yet at the same time that teams 1st and 2nd in the First Division will be ranked 11th and 12th. How does this matter if the league is cut back to ten places? Then towards the end of the article it suggests that maybe the geography thing could come into it. The article was as ify as everything else coming out at the moment. I also forgot to tell you it claims this all has to be ratified in June.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I wasted E2 on the paper on he way home this evening!

Didn't see the geography bit.

The criteria are to be decided by July, with applications then to be drawn up.

[Poor Student]

So if I got the article right, the creiteria have to be ratified first or have we already sold our souls?

[pineapple stu]

It would appear the FAI are to be given free reign to decide the criteria. The initial document circulated to clubs implied as much anyway.

[Poor Student]

I'm certain there was something in that article about the clubs ratifying in June. Read over it there if you have it. I only scabbed a read at work.

[pineapple stu]

"There is speculation that the FAI want to encourage a greater geographical spread within the top flight, with suggestions that room should be found for Athlone Town, Galway United and Limerick City (sic), all presently in the second tier."

[Poor Student]

Yep, there you go. So three very different interpretations in one small article of what's going on. The FAI is the culprit for creating this panic with lack of concrete information (information which seems not to even exists formally).

[higgins]

The FAI is the culprit for creating this panic


I think UCD fans are the culprits for creating this panic.. Can you guys relax a bit. ?

You say everything off the field is in order at UCD and you told me of the great plans you have to move to another site! Great!! now relax and go about finishing in the top 10 so as you dont have to rely on others not meeting the criteria.

[Poor Student]

I think UCD fans are the culprits for creating this panic.. Can you guys relax a bit. ?

You say everything off the field is in order at UCD and you told me of the great plans you have to move to another site! Great!! now relax and go about finishing in the top 10 so as you dont have to rely on others not meeting the criteria.

Has any of that ever stopped other eL fans being utterly disgruntled at our usual place in the Premier Division? We're not liked because we're a small club with a small fanbase in spite of the fact we don't do anything wrong. The feeling is that the FAI don't want small clubs in their new league. The constant cropping up of the words fanbase and marketability are what is making us nervous. They're not quantifiable criteria, they sound like tools to wield to get what the FAI wants and I doubt that's us in the top flight.

[higgins]

I think fanbase is quantifiable ?

If they use that then thats fair enough and as was said in many other threads its only for the start of the new look league. If you finish top of the 1st Division in the 2007 season, IF , then you would be promoted as usual I guess as long as you then fit the criteria?

They will not keep the same 10 teams in the premier every season.

Your painting a very bad picture here...

[Poor Student]

I think fanbase is quantifiable ?

Is it? How many fans did Cork get in Bishoptown? How many fans did Limerick get the season before last attending their games? How many fans did Athlone get last season? Fanbase is just a guess i.e. subjective. They're always fluctuating. Our own attendences are a lot higher than when we won the FAI Cup and finished high in the league.


If they use that then thats fair enough and as was said in many other threads its only for the start of the new look league. If you finish top of the 1st Division in the 2007 season, IF , then you would be promoted as usual I guess as long as you then fit the criteria?

One arbitrary relegation is not a risk a club can take. Yes, perhaps we could bounce back lack our last relegation or perhaps we could undergo the fate of the likes of Dundalk or Limerick and stagnate indefinitely. Arbitrary relegation could see an exodus of players and falling attendances. There's no telling what effect it could have on a club.

[jebus]

Anyone else think (and I may be wrongly assuming something from this, everyone else seems to be so why not me? I am the usual harbringer of doom on this forum anyway), but does anyone else think that if the FAI do go through with their plans and re-shape the league based on geography and financial clout, and Limerick do get promoted, (and this is in theory) and pushed into the top flight despite not actually getting promoted that this is just plain ****? I'm all for Limerick in the top flight, but what happened to good old fashioned competition in football? Is this now to be outlawed along with challenging for the ball or celebrating a victory? There's a reason Limerick is in this division and that is that sadly we deserve to be. I don't want some pencil necked geek (copyright: Bobby Heenan:) ) in merrion square to decide that Limerick FC should be bumped up the Premier because Lonely Planet reckons Limerick City is on the up.

Again I may be wrong in assuming that this is what will happen under the proposed plan, but no-one else seems clear on it either and I wanted to rant a bit

[LFC in Exile]

I am very conflicted on this issue - I can see the benefit in having a geographical spread and in encouraging better facilities (and selfishly there is a good prospect of Limerick in the premier). However, the more I think about it the less sense it makes:

1. Already the licence arrangements were there to encourage ground developments.

2. A geographical spread can only be achieved arbitrarily - over the longer term clubs will be promoted and relegated based on results and who knows where those clubs will be based. Unless you enforce a geographical spread it can't be achieved.

3. The FAI seem to want to cherry pick teams - and this may be all optics. Two years after dumping UCD or Dublin City out of premier they will point out that since the merger attendances are much higher.

4. There is a dangerous precedent here. While we benefit (potentially) from this, other clubs (that over a longer time period ran their operations better than us) lose because by their nature they struggle more than others to have a fan base (i.e. transient student population who are actually not at college for a large portion of the season). Is it possible that the FAI later decide to reduce the number of Munster clubs? Have a 10 team premiership with two Munster teams? Can we then compalin if its not us when we didn't complain when it happened to UCD etc. Like the line in the Christy Moore song (Yellow Triangle) "When they came for the students i did not speak..... Eventually they came for me, there no-one left to speak":)

[Lim till i die]

4. There is a dangerous precedent here. While we benefit (potentially) from this, other clubs (that over a longer time period ran their operations better than us) lose because by their nature they struggle more than others to have a fan base (i.e. transient student population who are actually not at college for a large portion of the season). Is it possible that the FAI later decide to reduce the number of Munster clubs? Have a 10 team premiership with two Munster teams? Can we then compalin if its not us when we didn't complain when it happened to UCD etc. Like the line in the Christy Moore song (Yellow Triangle) "When they came for the students i did not speak..... Eventually they came for me, there no-one left to speak":)

The very same struck me last night (Well, except the Christy Moore song :) ). Although this new jokeshop might be beneficial for Limerick in the short-term (and thats arguable given the kip that is Rathbane) can we really as football fans stand idly by and watch self-serving, small minded morons boot decent clubs out of the league, all of whom will most likely have as good if not better criteria then Limerick their only problem being they don't represent the 4th largest city in the league. The more I think about it the worse it seems to get :(

[sadloserkid]

I think this new proposal is complete and utter rubbish. If the clubs need a new league structure to give them an incentive to improve themselves the whole league is a sham anyway.

The day that Dublin City, UCD, Kilkenny and Monaghan are kicked out of the league because Galway United have a neat accountant, Shamrock Rovers have 'history' and Limerick and Waterford are cities is the day that I walk away from domestic football.

This whole farce is motivated 100% by self-interest on the part of most of the 18. And John D is right, this season is more or less irrelevant, Shamrock Rovers and Galway United will be playing top division ball next season while Dublin City and UCD will be lucky not to be shoved out. That's not right and I haven't heard a single word to make me feel otherwise. Thew whole 'potential marketability' may well serve us well enough but the rest of Europe must be laughing themselves stupid at us... :rolleyes:

[LFC in Exile]

Yes, all good points.

As you can see I have adopted the UCD avatar to show my position on it.:ball:

[JohnD]

Well Said SLK and LFC in Exile. We prob will do well out of this as we are the only team in the mid west and are a city etc. But I do not want to buy sucess and it must come from on the field of play. I want nothing to do with the death of Clubs and as Limerick FC's board voted for this change then they are guilty as charged of killing Football as we know it.

I think it is a shameful episode in the history of Irish Football. :(

[jebus]

Isn't this new plan supposed to encourage better support nationally for the Eircom league, to try to get the stereotypical Irish football supporter who follows the English Premier to come out for their local teams? Considering that the majority of Irish football fans I know think that the Eircom League is a joke at present, and has been for years/decades/forever I don't see how eliminating competition and creating an enviroment akin to nepotism in the league structure is going to change this opinion.

Its the geography standpoint in all this that has me bewildered. Fair enough clubs can't come up unless their grounds/finances etc. haven't met certain criteria, theirs a form of this to be found in every football league on the planet but not allowing a club prootion because their population is significantly smaller than any of the four major cities is alarming to say the least

[the ox]

Is this definitely happening or is it just a proposal? Obviously it's the most flawed horrible idea. Surely the romance of football and the whole attraction of it is any team can become a success if they get the results on the pitch. If something like this happened in England Wigan could go down a few divisions.

I agree with those who have said it, even if Limerick got promoted by this idea, the majority of fans (me included) would not be happy with it. I want to see us get promoted cos of great attacking skill and 20 goals each by Robbie and Derek, not cos of a potentially big fanbase.

[sadloserkid]

Yes, all good points.

As you can see I have adopted the UCD avatar to show my position on it.:ball:

And I'm about to follow your lead. :) :ball:

[Lim till i die]

And I'm about to follow your lead. :ball:

Traitors, Traitors all, let the Students do their own dirty work :eek: :p

[Poor Student]

Yes, all good points.

As you can see I have adopted the UCD avatar to show my position on it.:ball:

It's UCD's marketability at work, admit it.;) We're on our way to become Ireland's first nationwide supported club. Delaney we want to change our vote!:D

[LFC in Exile]

It's UCD's marketability at work, admit it.;) We're on our way to become Ireland's first nationwide supported club. Delaney we want to change our vote!:D

Well, I am an alumnus, so I don't feel compromised. SLK really is just a slut. :)

[Kerry Blue]

Seeing as the FAI are up to their old tricks by getting clubs to vote on something that they haven't clearly explained, but presumably will at some stage, this new league has all the hallmarks of becoming another embarrassing fiasco along the lines of the licensing system. If I'm right, and do correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there going to be another vote at a future date on the new league? I'm still trying to figure out what exactly will happen this season. Firstly, is it 100% certain that this season will be the last of the current format? What if the new proposals don't get ratified? What happens then? And another thing that came to mind: everyone seems to be certain that the new league will contain 22 clubs, but if the FAI stick rigidly to whatever standards new league members must meet, than surely if some of the current eircom league teams don't come up to the mark they will be left out. And if they are what do they do?