eL clubs vote for change.

[soccerc]

but thats not quite true. the FAI are being deliberatly vague. you are filling in blanks with worst case scenarios.

again, have any of the doomsday scenarios peddled by the UCD boys actually arisen in the documents 18 of the 22 clubs voted for.

and can we stop guessing who the 4 naysayers are? totally unhelpful.

I am not a UCD fan and have just read the main document and its attachment.

Am even more confused and concerned.

Spoke with anumber of club reps and they are unsure of what they were asked to vote on, what they voted on and what it means for the season ahead, yet they voted for it. One suggested to me that he went in favour from a business perspective and not from a football one. He also said the football managment side of his club were against the proposals but that their objections were not relevant.

Four clubs abstained as they coudn't vote to accept something that may or may not be on the table come a "special general" meeting.

[Roverstillidie]

at least you have seen the document, so you are somewhat qulified to speak.

all previous posts on this are heresay and agenda driven.

[Comic Book Guy]

Would be good to know who the 4 dissidents were.

I'd be very worried if I was a fan of Dublin City, Cobh, and possibly also UCD. Hard to know who'd win out between Dundalk and Drogheda as well, but I'd say the Drogs are in better shape at the moment.

At the moment as a Ramblers fan I wouldn't be as worried as you say, I know the board of the club have brought in a lot of new faces to attempt to get out of the first, (as have other clubs). They are also redeveloping the ground and should make substantial progress within the next 10 months.
As regards potential, that is undoubtedly there, the club is on the doorstep of a catchment area of around 250,000 and have got pretty good crowds in the past when they did well.
I know almost all other clubs can claim the same, I would like to see the detail (if there is any) on these new proposals before I cast my final judgement.
Regarding a new top flight, there would have to be a realistic chance of promotion for the clubs in the new first division, also these clubs should be given every assistance in the interim to get their facilities in order.

[Cosmo]

Spoke with anumber of club reps and they are unsure of what they were asked to vote on, what they voted on and what it means for the season ahead, yet they voted for it.

If thats true (and it more than likely is coming from soccerc), then why did clubs vote for something they dont know the details of? :confused:

Btw I'm not for or against the proposals as I dont know the details of whats being proposed.

[Roverstillidie]

If thats true (and it more than likely is coming from soccerc), then why did clubs vote for something they dont know the details of? :confused:

Btw I'm not for or against the proposals as I dont know the details of whats being proposed.

according the the UCD and CHF fans, its something to do with plague, pestilence and horsemen of the apocolypse. or someting like that.

[Slash/ED]

I agree that all the doomsday posts without knowing exactly what's going on are a bit daft, though Soccercs post is worrying.

[thejollyrodger]

were playing for the league and to get into Europe lads

FORZA SHELS

[Mr A]

One thing I would say on this is that if this process is based more on quantifiables rather than subjective issues there probably should be some very high profile casualties from this. However, I would guess that whatever issues will keep the big clubs out will be fudged and only those issues that will allow the chosen clubs to be in the premier will be strictly enforced.

According to Gerry McDermott during the week (and Jim Roddy didn't deny it) there was a strong threat of a breakaway if this wasn't passed, so maybe that explains it. Or maybe it really was just an agreement in principal. One is for certain, the FAI's first step towards a brave new world was poorly handled and a PR disaster. Hardly confidence inspiring.

[sligoman]

18 of the 22 clubs voted in favour of re-structuring the league at the end of next season, with no promotion or relegation to take place.This is fcuking ridiculous. How can you have two leagues with no promotion/relegation? Only the FAI could come up with such a thing:mad:.

Are the clubs who voted for and against gonna be named? Fair play to those who rejected it and those who voted for it, must know something that's not been said to the fans yet.

[Schumi]

i don't get why people think attendances will plummet :confused:
Think about it. If there's no relegation, are fans of a club in the bottom two or three of the premier going to be more or less interested in going to see their club, with presumably a poor team (being in the bottom two or three of the league and all), playing other poor teams? A relegation deciding game or a meaningless game between two poor sides?

[higgins]

Seen as you all like to look into newspaper articles and pull out whats bad, why have you failed to add in that the bottom two in the premier will be ranked 13th and 14th ?

They have never said there will be nothing to play for ??? :confused:

There is a league title in both divisions for a start. Setanta Cup spots and European placings. In the First it would do your club well to be in the top two spots I would imagine. If there is no point as you say and you finish rock bottom of the first do you think you will be regarded the same when it comes to selection as a team who won the first division?

[Dodge]

The point is Higggins that nobody was told how much on the field acheivement counts. if someone is ranked 13th solely on reulsts but then results only count for 5% of the total, its worhless. I don't think it'll be anywhere near that but then nobody knows

[Gerrit]

Will be interesting to see if the IFA or Irish League come out with any similar structural changes over the next year or two.

They'd better not. And after reading this I say a big NO to an all-Ireland league as well. It's simply crazy that a league is being composed out of teams selected on off-field criteria. Honestly and sorry for all of you, but UEFA should cancel Ireland's European entries until the FAI ditches this ridiculous plan.

I'm glad I see Irish League these days, maybe not the best competition but at least everything's decided on the pitch. Please keep the leagues seperate before the northern football gets messed up as well.

Sorry for these pessimistic statements (glad though that I am not the only one having problems with the idea) but I find it too insane for words what is happening.

[thejollyrodger]

Clubs can break away all they like but at the end of the day the FAI hold the franchaise for european places and europe is a big part of every clubs plans these days.

[sullanefc]

Lads, the SPL has promotion and relegation, yet, they can refuse a team entry if that team does not meet certain requirements. To the best of my knowledge this happens between the conference and football league in England. So why can't we do it here?

I think it is a good thing as you are forcing teams to invest in infrastructure rather than playing staff. And if a team fails on infrastructure requirements then they don't get in.

People are saying on this website that there will be NO promotion/relegation in 2007. There will be promotion and relegation in 2007 if the top 2 teams in the first division meet the requirements.

Stop whinging and read this....


Situations Of Promotion/Relegation
There were two occasions in which Falkirk were denied promotion to the S.P.L. The first arose at the end of the 1999/2000 season, when the S.P.L was due to expand to 12 teams. The team that finished bottom of the S.P.L (Aberdeen) was due to compete in a three-way play-off against the teams that finished 2nd and 3rd in the First Division (Dunfermline and Falkirk respectively), with 2 of the 3 teams earning entry to the S.P.L for season 2000/01. Falkirk's Brockville ground did not meet the SPL requirements so they applied to groundshare at Murrayfield. This was rejected by the SPL who in 2004 accepted an identical groundsharing bid at Murrayfield from Hearts (a team who were already S.P.L members). The play-off system was hence abandoned and Aberdeen and Dunfermline were allowed into the SPL for the following season.

In the 2001/2002 season, Falkrik finished 9th in the 1st Division, which would have led to them being relegated to the 2nd Division,but were allowed to stay up due to the dimise of Airdrieonians, which folded on the last day of that season.

The following season there had been talk of a new stadium for Falkirk, however, nothing materialised. Falkirk won the First Division in the 2002/03 season, with their ground still not meeting the stringent S.P.L stadia requirements. A vote to decide whether or not Falkirk should be allowed to play at New Broomfield (an SPL compliant stadium also home to Airdrie United) was held, and the S.P.L chairmen voted against them being allowed into the league, thus saving Motherwell from relegation.

The very next season the SPL changed the conditions allowing clubs entry. The required size of stadium was reduced from 10,000 to 6,000. Inverness Caledonian Thistle, who had been ground sharing with Aberdeen - hundreds of miles away finally benefitted from this change in attitude. This also paved the way for Falkirk to enter the SPL on condition that they win the First Division title.

Falkirk finally won promotion to the Scottish Premier League on April 9, 2005 after a 1-0 win over Ross County F.C.. Falkirk will now be able to play in Scotland's top flight in season 2005/2006 as their new stadium meets SPL criteria.

[Poor Student]

It doesn't work, don't you see? Falkirk were denied promotion because they couldn't have a 10,000 all seater ready yet ICT were promoted despite missing the same deadline and the criteria was reduced. The SPL had to shift the goalposts as the system wasn't working. This has been unfair on Falkirk who were denied promotion in 99/00 and 02/03 yet ICT were able to get away with it in 03/04. It was also unfair on Partick Thistle who ordinarily would have been saved from relegation like Aberdeen in 99/00 and Motherwell in 02/03.

Now, you have to ask yourself this also, what is going on next season? Are we cutting the league down to 10 teams or retaining 12? In the event that we cut it to 10 are the top 10 teams in the Premier Division going to comprise this new league? For example if UCD are 9th and Dub City are 10th and say Pat's and Waterford are 11th and 12th will the latter two be relegated and the former two be part of this new league? In the event that we stay with 12 teams will the top two in the 1st Division replace Waterford and Pat's in this example? Or are we just going to see the new league made up of teams chosen arbitrarily on non-sporting off-field non-quantifiable criteria like fanbase and potential marketability? If so then the situation is not comparable at all to the SPL. When the SPL was launched all clubs who didn't meet the criteria for promotion hopefuls were allowed to stay and were given quite some time to get their facilities up to date after the formation of the new league. Also there was no dodgy criteria like fanbase or marketability and certainly no hint of balancing things geographically. By what is suggested in the media and the Genesis report (upon which this is based) it seems to be the latter approach which will be taken, that of wiping the slate clean and asking all clubs to apply for their place in the new league.

[Mr A]

Another reason the SPL isn't a great exampl of the way forward for a viable league is that clubs there regularly still get into massive financial difficulty.

I think clubs must have proper facilites for the crowds they have a realistic chance of getting, they should be closely monitored to make sure they are not overspending or cooking the books, they should have a youth program and other than that football should decide who plays in what division.

[higgins]

Poor Student do you really think Belfield is deserving of a place for a Premier Division club in this new look league?

Its a sad day if Belfield meets the new criteria.. I seen in another thread you say your moving to a new ground but lets deal with today and what we have in place. If UCD were to win the premier and be thrown into the First division on grounds issues it would be fair enough in my opinion.

I think when 10 clubs are selected that we go from there. Any promoted team has to meet x,y and z before they can get into the Premier, even if the current 10 in the Premier didnt match x,y and z to start off with.

I think its great your fighting the good fight for your club but do you think you should be in this new premier? Its a 10 team league for a start so Id be happy if for 1 year only they apply the geography rule and where to say the top 2/3/4 dublin clubs make it in.

[Poor Student]

Higgins, if we finish from 1-10 then I firmly believe we deserve our place. We're a club who has no difficulty playing its players, has top quality facilities (training and physio not ground), has a good structure in place and does a good job at developing players including having 2 players currently in the U-21 squad. Belfield is not brilliant but it has about 800 covered seats, a shop, a gantry, floodlights and a dressing room. We have real plans to sort out our ground and they will be realised. There's currently a state of the art dressing room and physio facilities down where we're going to move to. Plus the ground is already in place, it's just a bit shabby. As I already pointed out, when the SPL decided to impose certain criteria they let the clubs already in place have a good deal of time to get theirs up to that standard after it started and did not boot them out. Also after several years of no promotion and relegation the fans and media got so annoyed that they had to reduce the standards. It might sound like a positive idea in theory but it hasn't worked so well in Scotland.

On the geography issue, what's the point? The Premier has 6 (if we count Bray) Dublin clubs because they are among the 12 best teams in the country. That is how it is. If you go meddling around on geography then you'll only put teams of better quality below teams of worse quality. Also if you haven't fecked the demoted Dublin clubs too badly it'll just fix itself out again rendering the exercise useless. On the other hand if you have killed clubs by doing this then that is disgusting.

[Student Mullet]

do you really think Belfield is deserving of a place for a Premier Division club in this new look league?That depends very much on which clubs do get a place. If belfield's 800 seats don't meet the cut then realistically there's barely 10 clubs which do. Will Limerick, Harps or either of the Louth clubs make the cut? They've worse stadia but better geography.

If Bray don't make the cut it raises the bar even higher.

[pineapple stu]

Lads, the SPL has promotion and relegation, yet, they can refuse a team entry if that team does not meet certain requirements. To the best of my knowledge this happens between the conference and football league in England. So why can't we do it here?

I think it is a good thing as you are forcing teams to invest in infrastructure rather than playing staff. And if a team fails on infrastructure requirements then they don't get in.
The problem is that all this is actually covered by current UEFA Licencing laws. The FAI have had these powers for the past few years (and haven't seen fit to use them). Why do they now need a big hullaballo to give themselves the same powers? Answer - there has to be something extra to this.

Ireland on Sunday named the four clubs as UCD, Dublin City, Monaghan and Kilkenny.


Do you really think Belfield is deserving of a place for a Premier Division club in this new look league?
As I said elsewhere, you can't build a great new ground like that, especially when the FAI are in the process of losing your grants. Definite plans should be - and are - enough for the moment.

[1 9 2 8]

Ireland on Sunday named the four clubs as UCD, Dublin City, Monaghan and Kilkenny.


No surprise there

[pineapple stu]

Interesting quote from eL spokesman Andy Needham in the Ireland on Sunday -

"This is seen as the first full step towards a full merger between the leaguea nd the FAI as recommended in the Genesis Report on the workings of the league, with clubs being placed in divisions according to their league placin, facilities and marketability."

Sounds fairly clear-cut...

[Poor Student]

How is marketability going to be assessed? Will the lads in the FAI do it themselves or will they get in someone independent to do it? If so will it be a bunch of unprofessional chancers like Genesis?

[higgins]

with clubs being placed in divisions according to their league placing, facilities and marketability."

I think all you UCD fans can stop now as you wont get to the marketability part :p
League Placing also puts to bed all the "nothing to play for" rubbish too!

I would like to see their marketability critera.

[Poor Student]

Higgins call me cynical but I think the league placing thing is a way to make it sound like they are being fair but it may not really be taken into account or just be a tie breaker or make up only a minimal part of this. Not a lot of real information forthcoming.

[pineapple stu]

I think all you UCD fans can stop now as you wont get to the marketability part :p
Hey, we've got the whole of South Dublin to market! Can't get much bigger than that!

I would like to see their marketability critera.
Don't think there are any yet. Criteria will be announced in June or July, I think.

Text of the article in full, as it's apparently about the only decent article in the Sunday papers (how accurate it is is another story) -


FAI A STEP CLOSER TO TAKING CONTROL OF EIRCOM LEAGUE
The FAI moved a step closer to assuming complete control of the eircom League after 18 of the 22 clubs coted to support the plan that would see the league come under the auspices of the association by the end of the 2006 season, which begins on 10 March.
Acceptance of the plan means there will be no automatic promotion or relegation between the Premier and First Divisions at the end of the forthcoming season.
However, the higher status of the bottom two Premier Division clubs will not be guaranteed.
Clubs that finish first and second will be ranked 11th and 12th in the proposed new structure, while the bottom two clubs in the Premier Division will be ranked 13th and 14th,
However, the two higher ranked clubs will still need to satisfy strict criteria relating to finances and facilities set out by the FAI to justify attaining top flight status. The proposed merger is subject fo full ratification at an EGM of the eircom League this June.
"This is seen as the first full step towards a full merger between the leaguea nd the FAI as recommended in the Genesis Report on the workings of the league, with clubs being placed in divisions according to their league placin, facilities and marketability.", said eircom League spokesperson Andy Needham.
While 18 clubs voted in favour of the change, four abstained - UCD, Dublin City, Monaghan United and Kilkenny City.
(Other stuff about teams being reelected and attendance figures (quoted elsewhere) omitted)
There is speculation that the FAI want to encuorage a greater geographical spread within the top flight, with suggestions that room should be found for Athlone, Galway United and Limerick City (sic), all presently in the second tier.

[higgins]

Not a lot of real information forthcoming.

No there isnt so maybe it might be better to wait until there is some news before thinking the worst?

If or When they say who is no longer going to be in the Premier they are going to have to give reasons. In fact they are going to draw up the criteria well before then so you can view it and work on areas you can.

Finishing as high up the Premier table as you can would be the best thing you could do id imagine!

[Poor Student]

The proposed merger is subject fo full ratification at an EGM of the eircom League this June.


So that means there's still time? Which comes first, the ratification or the clearly defined criteria?

[pineapple stu]

That's jus the merger - the criteria and new league are separate issues, I think.

[Poor Student]

Finishing as high up the Premier table as you can would be the best thing you could do id imagine!

I agree with you there. But how am I supposed to enjoy the season now with the feeling that the Sword of Damocles is hanging over our heads? Put yourself in my shoes, your hearing things like marketability and fanbase and nothing denying the fact and your club abstained from the vote, how would you feel?

[Risteard]

Should have put down the source, sorry.

So what i get from that is there will be promotion & relegation but it will have nothing to do with where your team finishes in the league.


Incorrect.
Well, you're right, it will have something to do with league placing but how much?

"when clubs will be placed in divisions which reflect this season's league placing, facilities and each club's marketability."
Where's the balance and who decides?