Dalymount - share talks confirmed

[ThatGuy]

I hope that they get a good deal to put to the members.

I would hate to see the situation arise where Shelbourne get to develop Connaught Street into a facility with car-park etc (continual source of revenue) and benefit from the sale of their ground, while we give up 50% of our ground for free and just have the use of the seats.

We have got to be financially compensated if we give up 50% of the ground. I really hope that we aren't left in the same financial position that we are in now with less of a stake in our home while Shelbourne are effectively being given a free ground and will have Tolka money to re-invest.

As I have said I am willing to listen to any offers, I think that with the right deal it could be fantastic for Bohs. With the wrong deal it could be disastrous. I hope the Bohs committee deliver the goods. If so it will be a fantastic move for the club in my opinion.

Delaney and Ollie's relationship concerns me though.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0126/dalymount.html

Dalymount ground-share talks confirmed

The prospect of Bohemians and Shelbourne sharing the same ground has moved a step closer to reality after confirmation from the FAI today that representatives from both clubs have met to discuss the possibility in conjunction with officials from Merrion Square.

A statement from the FAI said: "At the invitation of the FAI and as a natural follow-on from the publication of the recent Genesis report on the future of the eircom League, discussions have taken place between representatives of Bohemian FC and Shelbourne FC about a possible ground share arrangement. These discussions are being chaired by the FAI."

Recent speculation has suggested the two northside clubs could share a ground at a redeveloped Dalymount Park in Phibsboro, which would be co-funded by the Government and the sale of Shelbourne's Tolka Park in Drumcondra.


The statement added: "Both clubs have entered into these discussions without prejudice to other strategic and developmental initiatives which are under consideration. The talks are taking place in the full recognition of the best interests of the stakeholders of both clubs and for the benefit of the long-term future of the clubs.

"The sensitive nature of these discussions dictates that no further statement will be made at this time."

It is believed a similar arrangement is on the cards south of the River Liffey, with St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers suggested as co-tenants of the new stadium in Tallaght. This partnership would also be partly funded by the Government and the sale of St Pat's' Richmond Park in Inchicore.

[thomas]

Effectively the government and the FAI want shels and pats to pay for ground developments for themselves and two other clubs at the same time.
In theory pats/shels could get €5m for richmond/tolka and build a €25m stadium when thats added to their grant entitlements so if I was ollie or bernie i'd be telling them to f off.

[Bald Student]

I'm no property expert but I would have tought that Dayler was worth in the region of 100 million. Shels presumably don't have anything like half of that.

[sligoman]

Shels in Dalymount? Over my dead body.So eh, what do you plan on doing to prevent this?:rolleyes: :D.

[thejollyrodger]

What ever the fcuk happened to our 10,000 seater stadium out in donabate ? We could have added to it later years and make a 20,000 all seater fortress . The ground share with bohs is a pathetic idea. If it did go ahead it would want to be something really impressive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Raheny Red]

Once again it seems the fans are left in the dark!

Always the same with that fcuking Ollie scum!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ThatGuy]

What ever the fcuk happened to our 10,000 seater stadium out in donabate ? We could have added to it later years and make a 20,000 all seater fortress . The ground share with bohs is a pathetic idea. If it did go ahead it would want to be something really impressive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Surely Ollie wouldn't have been dishonest to his fans? Shock.

[ThatGuy]

So eh, what do you plan on doing to prevent this?:rolleyes: :D.
Well seeing as he is a part-owner of the club he can do something.:rolleyes:

If the members of Bohemians reject this then it can't happen. I am a member and I am willing to see what is on offer, but Bohemians should be heavily rewarded if any deal is to proceed.

[Gerrit]

A big NO NO NO :mad:

I like Dalymount, think it's the nicest one of the other Dublin grounds because it has so much history (and one very good stand), but it's not the spiritual home of Shels.

As I said before: why leaving Tolka? European games will get a new stadium filled, but 800 fans for a Tuesday night game vs Dublin City or Drogheda will look pathetic in a stadium any bigger than Tolka. We don't want it to become a copy of Queens Park FC Glasgow, do we? :confused:

Anyway, NO TO DALYMOUNT, NO TO GROUNDSHARING

[Anto McC]

BIG f*cking Disaster!!!

[Gareth]

A calm and level headed approach to this. Groundsharing was always going to be a likely option for Dublin clubs. No one is being kept in the dark. When news is had it will be announced. How are you in the dark, didn't a press release get released when the news was to be had and will again when there is more news?

[bohs til i die]

I'm no property expert but I would have tought that Dayler was worth in the region of 100 million. Shels presumably don't have anything like half of that.


Dalymount is worth about €2,000,000. Thats the value of the ground as a football stadium.

Real estate value is 10/15 times that

[The Sheliban]

This kind of thing happens the world over. What do Bohs fans want - to slide deeper and deeper into debt and follow Rovers into the first division? With the money from the sale of Tolka, you could put a decent stand on the Connaught Street side, benefitting both clubs. No need to use that kip in D4 for Cup Finals / big European games.

From a Shels perspective, we long since lost whatever spiritual home we had and its time to be pragmatic. Yes we all want an Old Trafford or a Bernebeu, of our own, but its not practical.

I can understand Bohs fans objections more than ours. Dalymount has always been synonymous with Bohs, and probably always will be. Anyway, its their ground at the moment - the decision is theirs. Nothing that Ollie or Delaney can do if Bohs say no. Shels have their own plans and we can go up to Lissenhall if this falls through. Do Bohs have a Plan B?

[bohs til i die]

This kind of thing happens the world over. What do Bohs fans want - to slide deeper and deeper into debt and follow Rovers into the first division?


Nothing that Ollie or Delaney can do if Bohs say no. Shels have their own plans and we can go up to Lissenhall if this falls through. Do Bohs have a Plan B?


you obviously know nothing about Bohs financial situation with your first comments

Shels have a plan but they dont want to execute it. Bohs dont require a plan B. We have a stadium that we own.

[LFC in Exile]

I'm a long-time proponent of thsi so I am delighted with news today. Eventually sense always prevails.

Of course it has to be a fair divvy up. The best way to handle this is for both clubs to sell their grounds (or leases or whatever) to the FAI. Then the cost of developing Dalymount is paid by the FAI and the balance is returned evenly to the clubs. Shels should not be able to make a killing. Otherwise it is just a case of them cashing in and renting another ground.

But in principle ground sharing in a superior stadium is infinitely better than both clubs trundling along with poor facilities (relative to what they could have) and/or massive and unsustainable debts. :ball:

As far as tradition goes - everything changes. Just start a new tradition.

[Dodge]

I like Dalymount, think it's the nicest one of the other Dublin grounds because it has so much history (and one very good stand), but it's not the spiritual home of Shels.
You do know they're playing in Tolka less than 20 years don't you? And that there was a club in Tolka before Shels?

[drummerboy]

At the moment Tolka Park is probably the best ground in the League. Yet the Shelbourne supporters have allowed Ollie Byrne and his cronies, to sell off their prize asset. Was Donabate ever a real prospect. I think not. The developers can't wait to get their hands on this prime site. We all know what developers are prepared to do to land a prize catch. People are looked after. Tolka has a special place in Irish football. It destruction should never have been even considered. Shels were obviously losing money, basically due to the lack of crowds to pay for their ever swelling wage bill.

Going to Donabate was never going to create bigger crowds. All these remedies are short term fixes, inclluding Dalymount. Basically they are spending far too much on wages. I'm very surprised and disappointed with the silence of Bertie Ahern on this subject. A man who claims to have been a staunch Drumcondra supporter, can sit back and see Tolka demolished to become another mass of concrete and glass. What a sorry mess football is in this age of the Celtic Tiger. If Tolka is sold, Shels are faced with relocating to Dalymount or perhaps Morton Stadium. Will all the money that exchange between the Developers and Shelbourne stay in football? Me thinks not.

[Raheny Red]

I'm talking about the site in Bally-whatever. I am seriously beginning to think this was a smoke screen and this groundsharing idea has been going on behind the scenes for the past few months/years(:confused: ) ???:confused: . We have not heard anything concrete (excuse the pun) on the site out in Co. Dublin in quite some time.

[BohDiddley]

I'm a long-time proponent of thsi so I am delighted with news today.
Well of course you are. :mad:

[Gerrit]

You do know they're playing in Tolka less than 20 years don't you? And that there was a club in Tolka before Shels?

I am aware of that, yes. Other club: you mean Drumcondra FC I suppose?

[Raheny Red]

Bohs scum vandalise Tolka.

Poor kids are starting to get a hang of this artistic crap

(i) The Milltown Monument

(ii) Shels pitch

(iii) then the ground

http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5137

[Dodge]

Home Farm played there until 1989...

[Gerrit]

Bohs scum vandalise Tolka.

Poor kids are starting to get a hang of this artistic crap

(i) The Milltown Monument

(ii) Shels pitch

(iii) then the ground

http://forum.shelbournefc.ie/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5137


Well done city council :rolleyes: This is what happens and could even be expected. The FAI and city council think in economical terms, but football doesn't work like that. You cannot just make 100% rational decisions and expect that fans will ditch emotions and club traditions.

[gael353]

I'm a long-time proponent of thsi so I am delighted with news today. Eventually sense always prevails.

Of course it has to be a fair divvy up. The best way to handle this is for both clubs to sell their grounds (or leases or whatever) to the FAI. Then the cost of developing Dalymount is paid by the FAI and the balance is returned evenly to the clubs. Shels should not be able to make a killing. Otherwise it is just a case of them cashing in and renting another ground.

But in principle ground sharing in a superior stadium is infinitely better than both clubs trundling along with poor facilities (relative to what they could have) and/or massive and unsustainable debts. :ball:

As far as tradition goes - everything changes. Just start a new tradition.

I agree with all that LFC in Exile has to say here. Two years ago he was saying this and being slagged off by persons on this site and others for voising his opinions. So hats off to him for his forward thinking. :)

[Slash/ED]

Neither side will be happy with this, it will not happen smoothly.

[Dodge]

With respect, anyone who's not a fan of the clubs involved can **** off.

[chippie0001]

Seems the Bohs and Shels fans in the main don't want this. There are exceptions to every rule though.

In short we own fully 5.5 acres 10 mins from the city centre. You own a lease with about 36 years to go on it. The value of the sites to the 2 parties are vastly different if they went on sale. As a Bohs fan I would rather sell Dalymount or develop it with a builder and move elsewhere than allow it be half sold for peanuts. Remember the joy has been valued at €20m an acre so even half that means Dalymount would be worth €55m. Thats more than enough to buy a site and build a stadium and leave €20m in the bank. We don't need this groundshare at all in my view.

[BohDiddley]

Well Chippie, they do say everything has its price ... but in my view BFC is not in the property business.
The best option for the club is a refit of Dalymount along the lines of Drogheda's planned new stadium. If memory serves me, this isn't going to cost the earth and could come in within half, or in striking distance of it, of what is being offered for a shared Dalymount. Not ideal, but no strings, and we stay in Phibsboro, and John Delaney's pet club stays out on a limb.
Not as pretty looking at it from Limerick, I suppose, but, as Dodge says, why should they matter?
As I've said before, there is money teed up for Dalymount. If we can unlock half of it without selling our souls, then I for one would be happy.

[Slash/ED]

The best option for the club is a refit of Dalymount along the lines of Drogheda's planned new stadium.

Where on earth is the money going to come from? :confused:


Seems the Bohs and Shels fans in the main don't want this

Not just don't want it, but both would be bitterly opposed to it, enough to make it very very difficult to ever be a realistic idea.

[hoopy]

With respect, anyone who's not a fan of the clubs involved can **** off.

Straight to the point and imop a good call. I think it's amazing that papers start all the s*** about Rovers and Pats yet no one has approached our board yet(I can't speak for Pats). In a general concensus, would fans in general be willing to tell their respective boards that they would boycott games if they are forced to share?

[higgins]

Shels can sell Tolka to a property developer and use the funds to build a stadium elsewhere. That has been the plan for the past two years so dont come on here with your 36 year lease does not equal owning Dalymount.

Your 55million valuation of Dalymount would only go ahead if you are willing to move home... So either you move or else drop it as a football stadium is not worth half of 55 million to shels!

I no more want to share a ground with Bohs then most fans of Shels but the FAI seem to be pushing this big time. I was delighted about the move away from Tolka to a site where we can have everything under one roof but Dalymount for me is the exact same as Tolka. As a Shels fan I see no advantage in the move unless its to a FULLY rebuilt Dalymount, (ie pitch moved, 4 sides all seated, covered the whole way round, proper drainage and watering system under the pitch and so on and so on). As I see Tolka as a better stadium then Dalymount today so why would it be in our interest otherwise.

Would Bohs fans be happy to sell Dalymount and come share in Tolka? So imagine it from our side!! There are many reasons to move out of Tolka but moving to Dalymount does not solve 90% of them.

[Slash/ED]

(ie pitch moved, 4 sides all seated, covered the whole way round, proper drainage and watering system under the pitch and so on and so on).

And with the restaints around Dalymount Park even with a big budget could that be done? I fully agree, I simply don't see the attraction of Dalymount Park even aside from the sentimental aspect of it all.

[chippie0001]

Higgins, I have no difficulty moving home, my point is it is no advantage to us you being involved. If you knew anything you would also know a lease is not worth as much as a freehold when it comes to selling land. You don't want it nor do we so no reason why we have to do the FAI's bidding.

[higgins]

I dont get it either???

Its not ground sharing that annoys me its wondering why Dalymount would be any different to Tolka? or any stadium surrounded by houses already in the city. There is more room at Dalymount then Tolka but your not talking about much and the sale of the shopping centre end has put a real question make over any future large stadium I would imagine.

I would love the FAI to find both Shels and Bohs a site thats somewhat close to town ( with the help of Bertie!) where both teams could build a top class stadium. Sell up Tolka and Dalymount to the property developers take the grant money from the FAI and use all the cash to move somewhere that has training grounds and car parking space and room for further expansion.

EDIT..
Just reading your post Chippie and no there is no reason why either club should agree as it doesnt suit us but the FAI do have a point that at present all grounds in the league are going backwards! They are falling down around us and/or being sold off! That is not a long term solution.
If they want us to ground share they have to do better then lump shels into dalymount in my opinion. How good can Dalymount ever be in your opinion? Nothing against your ground but if your gonna share it may as well be to a large site.

[Slash/ED]

Higgins, I have no difficulty moving home

I'd imagine you're in a minority as far as Bohs fans are concerned there though.

I would have no difficulty moving from Tolka to a new stadium built jointly between ourselves and Bohs, as such a stadium would be a far better one than the one either of us play in at the moment especially if we could also throw in grants and the like. Once it all works out equally, and we each get one 'end' of the ground that's always ours like on the continent, I don't see a problem with that. It's an improvement for both sides and a facility to play matches in to attract fans to that we could not build on our own.

Moving to Dalymount, where such a facility from my limited knowledge of the place simply could never be built even if you leveled the place, what's the point? And then there's the whole sentimental aspect of it, a move to Dalymount I'm opposed to, but if we both built a new stadium together I wouldn't really have an issue with it.

[chippie0001]

I dont get it either???

Its not ground sharing that annoys me its wondering why Dalymount would be any different to Tolka? or any stadium surrounded by houses already in the city. There is more room at Dalymount then Tolka but your not talking about much and the sale of the shopping centre end has put a real question make over any future large stadium I would imagine.

I would love the FAI to find both Shels and Bohs a site thats somewhat close to town ( with the help of Bertie!) where both teams could build a top class stadium. Sell up Tolka and Dalymount to the property developers take the grant money from the FAI and use all the cash to move somewhere that has training grounds and car parking space and room for further expansion.
For what its worth I agree. Redeveloping Dalymount into any size of a ground will be very hard. Due to the small lanes and only really owning 3 sides to the ground I doubt you could get more than 12,000 seats in. The entire ground needs to be knocked and start again but how many seats and how long planning permission will take is debatable. Getting a site from the Government in the old Mountjoy would be a far better and viable option.

[Slash/ED]

For what its worth I agree. Redeveloping Dalymount into any size of a ground will be very hard. Due to the small lanes and only really owning 3 sides to the ground I doubt you could get more than 12,000 seats in. The entire ground needs to be knocked and start again but how many seats and how long planning permission will take is debatable. Getting a site from the Government in the old Mountjoy would be a far better and viable option.

So you're open to a move, but how would you and, in your opinion, the membership feel about moving to a new stadium jointly owned by Bohs and Shels? I'd imagine it'll be easier to swallow than us moving into Dalymount and certainly the Shels fans would find it alot more acceptable. I mean assuming a stadium jointly owned by us both, each getting our own bar facilities and all of that, would be vastly superior to one built just by one club, where is the problem? I would be in favour of something like that.

[chippie0001]

Me personally I would rather own my own stadium than share. I am not against ground sharing though if the deal was right for Bohs and made sense. This move from a financial point of view for Bohs in my view does not. There is 2 projects near Dalymount, Mountjoy and Grangegorman that are both going to be built from scratch. It would be far better to put a new 15,000 seater stadium there. Also in needs office space, car parks etc and that is something Dalymount will never have.

[Slash/ED]

Yeah I agree, and I reckon that if Bohs were looking to move out, a groundsharing deal probably would be right for Bohs and make sense, same from Shels point of view. Together and with support building from scratch in a good location we could get a, by EL terms, absolutley incredible stadium.

[thejollyrodger]

I think thats the best idea so far when i comes to ground sharing. Both clubs sell of their grounds and build a stadium together in a new site. If Dalymount is really worth the the €55 million the two clubs could have a fantastic stadium.


**edit.. i still dont want to ground share BTW

[bohs til i die]

Well Chippie, they do say everything has its price ... but in my view BFC is not in the property business.
The best option for the club is a refit of Dalymount along the lines of Drogheda's planned new stadium. If memory serves me, this isn't going to cost the earth and could come in within half, or in striking distance of it, of what is being offered for a shared Dalymount. Not ideal, but no strings, and we stay in Phibsboro, and John Delaney's pet club stays out on a limb.
Not as pretty looking at it from Limerick, I suppose, but, as Dodge says, why should they matter?
As I've said before, there is money teed up for Dalymount. If we can unlock half of it without selling our souls, then I for one would be happy.


Bohs and Shels will set up a separate company to look after the stadium

Both will pay a fee to this company for the maintenance of the stadium

A chunk of what Shels get for selling [or having already sold] the lease to Tolka will be used along with FAI funds to rebuild the ground

Shels will pay Bohs a few million for buying into Dalymount



Thats totally unfair on Bohs. We have land that could fetch anywhere from €50,000,000 to €100,000,000 based on the value of land in other parts of the D7 locality if it was sold for a move to a new location. Shels wont get anywhere near the lower figure for the lease on Tolka and that is FACT.

If Bohs [or Bohs and Shels] could get a stadium built on either the Grange or Mountjoy then it would get my support but for Shels to get 50% of Dalymount for a pittance is totally unacceptable.

We are being asked to accept a big all seater stadium as reward for giving up a potential €50,000,000 to €100,000,000 sum along with at least €350,000 [and maybe as much as €500,000] from our annual static income as it currently stands [bar, car park, tenants].

Shels are being asked to accept a move to Dalymount instead of a move to Ballymadrough, even though the Ballymadrough deal isnt really going to happen. Shels stand to gain a lot more then Bohs and that isnt right. Also the rumours suggest that both clubs will start in te new ground with similar amounts of cash in the bank.


This deal stinks

[BohDiddley]

From the Sunday Times:

Shels to profit from €20m deal

Tolka Park is expected to fetch about €20m when it is sold for residential and light industrial development, if, as is now widely expected, Shelbourne move into a ground-share with Bohemians at Dalymount Park. Sources close to the club say they are already near to reaching an agreement for the sale, with the accountant and businessman Ossie Kilkenny believed to be the intended buyer. St Pat’s are also sending out feelers about selling their ground in Inchicore. It looks increasingly likely that they will ground-share with Shamrock Rovers at their new stadium, currently under construction in Tallaght.

[anto eile]

A big NO NO NO :mad:

I like Dalymount, think it's the nicest one of the other Dublin grounds because it has so much history (and one very good stand), but it's not the spiritual home of Shels.



you havent played in your "spiritual home" in about 40 odd years. and you have no plans to ever return to it

[anto eile]

you obviously know nothing about Bohs financial situation with your first comments

Shels have a plan but they dont want to execute it. Bohs dont require a plan B. We have a stadium that we own.
would i be correct in saying your debt is between E1.3 and E1.8M? depending on a recent deal with the matter hospital concerning use of your connacht st car park

[anto eile]

From the Sunday Times:

Shels to profit from €20m deal

Tolka Park is expected to fetch about €20m when it is sold for residential and light industrial development, if, as is now widely expected, Shelbourne move into a ground-share with Bohemians at Dalymount Park. Sources close to the club say they are already near to reaching an agreement for the sale, with the accountant and businessman Ossie Kilkenny believed to be the intended buyer. St Pat’s are also sending out feelers about selling their ground in Inchicore. It looks increasingly likely that they will ground-share with Shamrock Rovers at their new stadium, currently under construction in Tallaght.
E20M for tolka? and i believe shels only get one third of that..a pittance compared to the gypos potential profit from dalymount

[sullanefc]

you havent played in your "spiritual home" in about 40 odd years. and you have no plans to ever return to it

Pardon my ignorance, I'm not too up to date with EL history, but where is Shelbournes spiritual home?

[Poor Student]

Pardon my ignorance, I'm not too up to date with EL history, but where is Shelbournes spiritual home?

They're originally from Ringsend I think.

[bohs til i die]

would i be correct in saying your debt is between E1.3 and E1.8M? depending on a recent deal with the matter hospital concerning use of your connacht st car park


way out. The annual report was received by members recently and you have hugely over estimated our debts

[Slash/ED]

If Bohs [or Bohs and Shels] could get a stadium built on either the Grange or Mountjoy then it would get my support but for Shels to get 50% of Dalymount for a pittance is totally unacceptable.


And mine, and get far more support from Shels fans in general imo. This seems a far, far better option with ultimately a better facility and both sides better off with both sets of fans happier, so why isn't it on the table?

[chippie0001]

And mine, and get far more support from Shels fans in general imo. This seems a far, far better option with ultimately a better facility and both sides better off with both sets of fans happier, so why isn't it on the table?
Not sure about your club, but this is the routine for Bohs, give the members only one option and hope they swallow it. This time I don't think they will though.