Who should get the Louth franchise?

[Roverstillidie]

You can call the question stupid if you like but if these proposals go through, there's going to be someone in merrion square deciding this.

but is there? are you sure you arent adding 2+2 and getting 5?

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.

cant help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists

[sullanefc]

but is there? are you sure you arent adding 2+2 and getting 5?

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.

cant help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists

The scaremongering is quite sad IMO.

What are the NLSA doing? Are they organising a protest or something. Who is in the NLSA?

[Poor Student]

The scaremongering is quite sad IMO.

What are the NLSA doing? Are they organising a protest or something. Who is in the NLSA?

They're certainly working on it, I know that for a fact.

[Roverstillidie]

They're certainly working on it, I know that for a fact.

what, scaremongering or a protest?

[pineapple stu]

Can't help but get the feeling the NLSA are contriving a row to get noticed when none necessarily exists
I think that's the first mention of the NLSA on this thread?


What are the NLSA doing? Who is in the NLSA?
The NLSA gave a submission to the original Genesis Report. There was no follow up consultation from Genesis on this. The NLSA subsequently requested a meeting and/or an open forum with Genesis as part of the second consultation mentioned in their report. Genesis said there was no such consultation and that the matter was entirely with the FAI. They didn't answer any of the NLSA's other correspondence, as far as I know.

The NLSA contacted the FAI three times and the league once. No reply was received until this week, when it was too late (on the FAI and eL's behalf) to arrange a meeting. Bit of a coincidence, you might say.

As reported in the Star on Friday, the NLSA wrote a letter to each club pointing out the huge flaws - factual errors, selective facts, omissions of important items which aren't being done by the powers that be (e.g. UEFA Licencing), despite the report referring to them in the Genesis Report on which this entire proposal is based and urging that the proposal be rejected. One club (not UCD or Dublin City, incidentally; I don't see the need to name them though), called it an "excellent document" which raised many important questions and said it reflected very well on the group. It is therefore worth noting that no supporter consultation whatsoever was considered necessary for such an important proposal, even though one would consider supporters to be the single-most important "stakeholder" (as the Genesis Report put it) in the game. Quite simply, without supporters, there would be no league.

As the purpose of the NLSA is to represent fans of all 22 eircom League clubs, it can only take the view that any system which relegates or promotes clubs on any basis other than fair on-the-pitch means is inherently wrong and against the ethos of fair sport. It acknowledges that provisions can be made for UEFA Licencing, but this obviously doesn't apply in this case.

As for who are the NLSA - it is the group set up in June 2005 when the eircom League Supporters' Club ticket allocation was cut by 70% at short notice by the FAI. This was rectified, and it was agreed by the FAI that the group should become the main contact for the eL North Terrace tickets (primarily for the convenience of dealing with one group rather than 22). The group was given a section in the Ireland match programme, the first appearing in (I think) the Switzerland programme. The FAI suggested that we liaise through regular with the league to provide an outlet for supporters' views. The lack of these meetings has been discussed above. At this initial ticket stage, people from most clubs were involved - Athlone, Bohs, Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Dublin City, Harps, Galway, Longford, Pat's, UCD, Kildare, Dublin City, Shamrock Rovers, Limerick (primarily the people who had been acting as the contacts between the FAI and their club's Supporters' Club in the ticket dealings). The reason this doesn't cover the full spectrum of the league is that not all clubs were involved in the ticket arrangement. The NLSA have since then at least contacted people from other clubs with a view to getting them on board.

For further information, you can visit the (still embryonic) NLSA website (http://www.nlsupporters.com/) (we've had huge problems with the server...). The NLSA intends to strengthen its links with the various clubs and their supporters once the new (and pointless) season starts up. For obvious reasons, it's hard to get much speed up during the close-season.

[pineapple stu]

find me the exact quote/phrase or whatever that says there will be geographical franchising on county lines. otherwise you are scaremongering.
A line from the Genesis Report (on which this is all being based) -

Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country.
Do you both want to take back the accusation of scaremongering? Or is humble pie not your taste?

Here's a line from Aertel's report on the vote -

It is the first step towards a full merger between the league and the FAI, following proposals by the FAI to operate a financially viable league in 2007, when clubs will be placed in divisions which reflect this season's league placing, facilities and each club's marketability.

And a line from the Irish Independent, quoted here (http://www.foot.ie/showthread.php?t=33069) -

The rest is likely to centre around facilities, business plans, level of support and marketability.

And another line from the same article -

Can First Division clubs be promoted after 2007?
Yes. The First Division champions will be entitled to replace the bottom team in the Premier but only if they fulfil all the criteria needed to play in the top division. If they can't do that then the bottom team survives.
Facilities and marketability offer serious leeway for subjectivity, which means the FAI are free to pick who they want for the new league. Teams who are in the First Division by virtue of criteria can't almost by definition make the criteria if they get promoted. So (a) teams in the First Division will wither away and die and (b) we have a case where even promotion and relegation are at the whim of the FAI. Which is why so many are opposed to this.


setting up a league with 'proper' clubs sounds good to me.
How do you define "proper clubs"? Are UCD, Dublin City, Kilkenny, Athlone, Monaghan, Kildare, etc. "proper clubs" with their small fan bases? Are Galway, Dundalk or Limerick "proper clubs" because they have some vague trappings of potential and yet can't oust the likes of UCD or Dublin City from the Premier? Would you wather have UCD - small fanbase, but they can play decent football and do well for themselves - or Galway - big potential apparently, yet they get under 200 for some games and ahve shown a marked inability to capitalise on their potential.

The "proper" clubs for the Premier - and the clubs which should be there to ensure the strongest League of Ireland - are the ones who are being run the best with the resources they have to enable them to stay in the Premier.

Promoting weaker teams and relegating stronger teams can only make the league weaker. That's fairly clear. If the "proper clubs" (which we shall for the moment define as ones who are in an area with lots of people) can't get into the Premier, the onus is on them to get into the Premier. The FAI can't simply move clubs around in divisions at its whim. That it fundamentally against the notion of fair sport.

[Roverstillidie]

A line from the Genesis Report (on which this is all being based) -
Originally Posted by Genesis Report
Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country.
Do you both want to take back the accusation of scaremongering? Or is humble pie not your taste?

Here's a line from Aertel's report on the vote -


.

that does not equate to one of the louth clubs, or anyone, not getting to play in the FAI league. not by a long shot.
you are basing this whole ****storm of indignation on aertel and the indo? seriously?
now i know you are being disengenious on this issue.

[pineapple stu]

I think the Louth example was used to show just how silly selecting clubs "based on population centres" is. However, it is likely there won't be room for both. Drogheda and Dundalk together does not represent "population centres throughout the country". The chances are one will have to make way. Which?

You can apply the same logic to Harps and Derry, to Galway and Sligo, to Longford and Athlone...


you are basing this whole ****storm of indignation on aertel and the indo? seriously?
Eh no - you say this when I quote an extract from the Genesis Report?! It's on Aertel and the Indo - sure it must be nonsense then. Now I know what to make of your opinions anyway.

[Roverstillidie]

PS, you are parading this, the louth thing being a prime example, on the basis of one phrase in genesis, as fact.
its not. "population centres throughout the country" = removing dorgs, harps, longford? you are leaping to silly conclusions.
no-where does it say clubs will be expelled from the league on geography.

Delaney leaked certain nonsense to the press so useful idiots like you would jump to conclusions, and when the EL clubs talk him out of it, we will think we have won something while he gets what he really wants, groundsharing.

again, put up quotes from actual FAI documents to back up ypur wild theories (which you may well be able to do on monday) or shut up.

[pineapple stu]

On what basis is Genesis not an FAI document? Its front page carries the FAI logo and the heading "Football Association of Ireland".

On what basis is it not fact? Genesis also recommends ground-sharing - that appears to be fact (or it's being discussed at least). Genesis recommends merging the league and the FAI - that's fact. Genesis recommends "re-launching" the league - that's fact. Are you happy to dismiss this as fiction because it doesn't suit you to consider it fact?

How many phrases would you like Genesis to express what is a very simple notion in? Do you expect them to re-iterate it over and over?

Me a "useful idiot" as far as Delaney is concerned? Surely "useful" to Delaney would mean agreeing with his proposal, not disgreeing with is? Surely "useful idiots" from the point of view of distracting Delaney would be club committee members who were actually voting?

None of your posts are making any sense.

[Roverstillidie]

On what basis is Genesis not an FAI document? On what basis is it not fact? Genesis also recommends ground-sharing - that appears to be fact (or it's being discussed at least). Genesis recommends merging the league and the FAI - that's fact. Genesis recommends "re-launching" the league - that's fact. Are you happy to dismiss this as fiction because it doesn't suit you to consider it fact?

How many phrases would you like Genesis to express what is a very simple notion in? Do you expect them to re-iterate it over and over?

None of your posts are making any sense.

PS, you have picked a 5 word phrase from genesis "population centres throughout the country" (btw 3 genesis reports, none implemented so far) and have managed to contive a machievellian scheme that sees all rural clubs, UCD and CHF rooted out of the FAI league. can you please elaborate, even a little bit, as to where you are getting this.
The fai insiting on licencing being taken seriuosly is one thing, but you are on a flight of fantasy here.
for the record, i dont trust the FAI one bit, but groundsharing is the aim of this game. you appear to have a UCD/NLSSA agenda at work here.

You are proposing this as a definite FAI scheme with no attempt to back it up. and then saying i make no sense in asking whre precisley you are getting your quotes. try harder.

[pineapple stu]

PS, you have picked a 5 word phrase from genesis "population centres throughout the country" (btw 3 genesis reports, none implemented so far) and have managed to contive a machievellian scheme that sees all rural clubs, UCD and CHF rooted out of the FAI league. can you please elaborate, even a little bit, as to where you are getting this.
I picked the phrase "Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country." You might like to count the words again.

I have not said any club will be rooted out of the league - I've said some will be relegated to the First Division regardless of league position. I've already told you my source - the Genesis Report, which is the entire basis of the proposal. Incidentally, it is the second Genesis Report as far as I know, and the first on the eircom League (the other was on the FAI)


for the record, i dont trust the FAI one bit, but groundsharing is the aim of this game. you appear to have a UCD/NLSSA agenda at work here.
Again, you brought the NLSA up on this thread. I subsequently clarified the NLSA's stance. Incidentally, the haphazard poll shows 60% opposition, so I don't think it's entirely UCD either.


You are proposing this as a definite FAI scheme with no attempt to back it up. and then saying i make no sense in asking whre precisley you are getting your quotes. try harder.
Ummm...I've quoted you exact passages from FAI documents - both Genesis and the FAI proposal. I've quoted you exact passages from independent news articles. What more do you want?

[Roverstillidie]

so to sum up, your opposition to the entire FAI league is based on this one phrase in genesis 3

"Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country."

seriously, is that all you have?

[pineapple stu]

Good God...

Clubs will be selected for the Premier on the basis of factors other than league position. That's a fact from an official FAI document (together with independent news and media) which I have already quoted. That's completely against the notion of fair and competitive sport. That screws over all the hard work being done at those clubs.

All this change is on the basis of the Genesis Report. The Genesis Report is seriously flawed - it has factual errors, it has plagiarised and unreliable figures, it hints that UEFA Licencing is a complete screw-up but doesn't attempt to investigate it, it omits several other areas of interest into how the league can improve and Genesis have refused to an open forum in Dublin to allow for discussion on the report as called for by themselves. All in all, the report can be counted as completely discredited, which is why any actions based on its conclusions have to be taken with extreme scepticism, especially when they are so potentially inherently unfair and subjective as all reports are. When you put subjective in with the FAI - whom you, as I, inherently distrust - you're looking at disaster.

Incidentally, I quoted articles from news reports which you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge as true or reliable. At what point do you believe things? Do you believe Bertie Ahern is the Taoiseach? You've presumably only read about this in the media.

I'm going to leave it at that, unless you have any actual points to make.

[Breifne]

"Ideally, the ten clubs in the National League will be spread across the major population centres throughout the country."

seriously, is that all you have?

Is that not enough, I think Stu has laid out his point of view excellently, and this isn't just the little guys sticking together against the big bad scary FAI. I have one question for Roverstillidie, Are you on the payroll of the FAI, because I find it hard to believe that someone can be that persistantly blind to this argument. Everyone (and that includes FAI officials) knows this is the plan, although it will not be officially said.

As it happens, I was in Limerick on saturday at a football tournament in UL, co incidentally the same venue, same day as a preseason session with the eL referees, considering that the AGM was happening less than a mile down the road from where we were, and the group of people in the same building as us (eL referees and FAI personnel) the main topic of conversation all day was about this, speaking to a number of FAI employees and council members, they all supported and fully backed up the indent behind this proposal.

Its not exactly rocket science. Its the start of "Franchise" football. Now where are all the fans who slagged us off about being a franchise, when 18 of our clubs have just decided that is exactly what they wish to become.

[Snoop Drog]

The bottom line for Louth is that if both clubs get their acts together- Drogs with a new stadium and Craptown sorted financially- both will be (rightfully) included in the league, regardless of geographical location.

What's the point in a Kilkenny, Kerry or Donegal "franchise" replacing one of the Louth teams merely for the sake of geographical spread?

Both Drogs & CT have huge potential for growth in a well run league.

Note that the Australian A-League, launched, last year (very successful so far- el should be watching and learning) limited each city to one team but a region could have multiple teams (ie, one team in Sydney but two others within a couple of hours drive).

Instead of pointing fingers at Louth maybe some Dub-based clubs should be worried about what place they have in a new league

[CollegeTillIDie]

If the FAI want to achieve their objective of having 50,000 people watching top class football in a top class arena wih top class facilities, then why not merge the big 4 Dublin Clubs and have St Shelhemians Rovers play in the English Premier League based int he new Lansdowne Road?

Meanwhile, the IFA could follow suit with Glenfieldville attracting huge crowds to their Coca Cola Championshiop games at George Best Park (aka the Maze).
And I'm sure Cork Ramblers and Derrystute would get good crowds at their League 1 and 2 games. ;)

Well not so long ago Eamon Dunphy was the mouthpiece for an attempt to move Wimbledon to Dublin and play in the English Premiership. Which is the equivalent of St Shelmians Rovers because that would have killed off the old League of Ireland big time! This was the first attempt to introduce Franchising in Europe and was defeated by a combination of opposition from the IFA in Belfast, a small core of opposition in Merrion Square, and opposition from genuine fans of what we now call the EL. All the media here seemed to be behind the move ( notable exception being The Title). And even a widely circulated letter from FIFA saying they would not countenance it made no difference to the coverage. But Wimbledon did move.... to Milton Keynes which at least is in the same country.

The only reason the FAI are even interested in the League here is U.E.F.A. and F.I.F.A.'s position is clear... no National League... no International team. The only exception to this is Liechtenstein who have a dispensation to allow their leading clubs to play in lower League Swiss football. No international team no trips for blazers!

[Roverstillidie]

Is that not enough, I think Stu has laid out his point of view excellently, and this isn't just the little guys sticking together against the big bad scary FAI. I have one question for Roverstillidie, Are you on the payroll of the FAI, because I find it hard to believe that someone can be that persistantly blind to this argument. Everyone (and that includes FAI officials) knows this is the plan, although it will not be officially said.

As it happens, I was in Limerick on saturday at a football tournament in UL, co incidentally the same venue, same day as a preseason session with the eL referees, considering that the AGM was happening less than a mile down the road from where we were, and the group of people in the same building as us (eL referees and FAI personnel) the main topic of conversation all day was about this, speaking to a number of FAI employees and council members, they all supported and fully backed up the indent behind this proposal.

Its not exactly rocket science. Its the start of "Franchise" football. Now where are all the fans who slagged us off about being a franchise, when 18 of our clubs have just decided that is exactly what they wish to become.

payroll of the FAI :D
yeah, thats it.

the UCD fans have been talking about one louth club getting axed, UCD and CHF expelled and on and on. i want to know where they are getting all this. as i have repeatedy daid, they could well be right, but i want to see some of these theories backed up. and no, what some evening herald journo says isnt enough. they are very concertedly and aggressively putting forward their doom and gloom scenarios, and id like them to justify it.

bear in mind all these questions were posed on SATURDAY when they were as much in the dark as we were.

a good example is the word franchise. when and how did that enter the narrative of this discussion?

we cannot have a sensible discussion on the future of the league with some of this garbage floating around

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well you're signature about Mr. Delaney could be a subtle ploy to give the people what they want you know? :D