Mercenary, Do or Die?

[livehead1]

I thought this would be a very interesting thread to open. Now i know we have had countless discussions on the merits and de-merits of having international players in the ireland squad who are simply playing to forward their careers or to get a chance to play in the world cup finals.

I want to look at this from a different angle. I'm going to use Kevin Nolan as an example, forget that he may be ineligible, just think of the situation:

Kevin Nolan has previously declared that he has no interest in playing for Ireland at all, does not feel Irish, and feels he has enough ability to break into England's midfield.

Now Nolan has finally decided that international football for him is not going to come in the shape of England, and he would therefore like to play for the Irish national side.

*Heres the catch. If Nolan is to play for the Irish national side he WILL be the difference between qualifying for the world cup and not qualifying for the world cup. Im not talking one game, he will play in all the qualifiers and will guarentee our qualifying for the competition.

Basically what i'm saying is ;
If Nolan plays we qualify
If Nolan doesn't play we don't qualify

Now what are your views on a mercenry, someone who isn't Irish, but will bring us qualification, playing for us...

[Dodge]

Poll added. I voted for not qualifying.

[onenilgameover]

If they wanna play then they'il play i reckon..I'd at least cut off a finger (one of the crap ones) to go to this world cup so id probably play anyone who'd get us there. (except for fester)

[geysir]

As the poll is based on a contentious supposition, my guess is the thread will hit the dirt bin.

[klein4]

well put it another way...do you think "the end justifies the means" should be our main motivation in our use of the "granny rule". (no from me)

[Raheny Red]

I voted for not qualifying.

[Qwerty]

I don't understand the point of the poll, as Clinton Morrison already plays for us the answer is 99% wants Ireland to qualify....:)

[OwlsFan]

:confused: Daft daft. So we have 10 players born and bred in Ireland and the 11th players is someone who also plays for us of Irish blood but who wants to enhance his career, so we should hope we don't qualify because of that.

It takes all sorts I suppose.

I can never understand this Aryan pure blood theory. We have enough "pure Irishmen" turning their back on their country and retiring early and now we want to sneer at the 2nd generation who want to play for whatever reason. The motivation of a player doesn't interest me so long as he does the business. At least he's prepared to put on the green shirt unlike some of his aryan brethern.

[jorge]

Since when has Irelands world Cup qualification depended on Kevin Nolan for **** sake.Stupid poll.

[Dodge]

Since when has Irelands world Cup qualification depended on Kevin Nolan for **** sake.Stupid poll.
:rolleyes: Its a hypothetical situation....

[pete]

Interesting article in the Times today. Thornley suggesting extending the rule to children of irish people & leaving at that. If kid plays for england at under-age level then don't approach when they older. He suggesting dragging in mercenaries at senior level is unfair to players who have gone throuhg the whole underage setup.

No to mercenaries.

[Macy]

No to mercenaries for me too, and that would include current players like Morrison. It makes a mockery of the national team. A player should be asked once, if there's not a direct answer there and then they should never be considered again. It shouldn't be restricted to Irish born, but it shouldn't be anyone who qualifies either.

btw Staunton has lost all support for me with his granny rule comments. Wasn't his fault he's Delaney's stooge so got the job (well it is, but he could hardly turn it down), it is his fault if he's looking to cram the team full of numpties delighted to have midweek games and the associated bonus' of getting caps for the "Republic"

[gaf1983]

I suppose ye guys would also rather Ray Houghton/Andy Townsend/John Aldridge had never player for Ireland and we had never qualified for world cup 90/94.

what a stupid question.

[Macy]

I suppose ye guys would also rather Ray Houghton/Andy Townsend/John Aldridge had never player for Ireland and we had never qualified for world cup 90/94.
Well at least Townsend and Aldridge have stuck with their decision. I think they would've met the qualification of only being asked once. Houghton has said it's just because he was píssed off at not getting picked for scotland and he still says he's Scottish. He said this on an RTE programme, so no question of him playing up for particular audience.

[pete]

I suppose ye guys would also rather Ray Houghton/Andy Townsend/John Aldridge had never player for Ireland and we had never qualified for world cup 90/94.

what a stupid question.

How do you know we wouldn't have qualified without them?

[lopez]

...I can never understand this Aryan pure blood theory...It's not a pure blood theory. It's a pure Irish accent theory. No Irish accent then he must be a Brit! Simple as the people who think it. :p

[gaf1983]

How do you know we wouldn't have qualified without them?

I dont , but in the context of the question on the poll, anyone who votes for "Not playing that mercenary and not qualifying for the World cup" should by the same reasoning in the past have rathered Ireland had not played Houghton/Aldridge/Townsend even if it had meant not qualifying for world cup 90/94.

people kick up about these people playing for Ireland but once they happen to play a few games/score a few goals everything is forgotten.

[eirebhoy]

I dont , but in the context of the question on the poll, anyone who votes for "Not playing that mercenary and not qualifying for the World cup" should by the same reasoning in the past have rathered Ireland had not played Houghton/Aldridge/Townsend even if it had meant not qualifying for world cup 90/94.
Plenty of people were against the appointment of Stan or the 2nd chance for Keane, it doesn't mean they're going to stop supporting Ireland.

[Hither green]

I think it's a good question, Staunton brought it up after all, it's one thing to go out and exploit the granny rule (and I've no problem with that) but to keep mentioning it as a core tactic like Staunton has is going too far. And I've no issue with exploiting the international rule occasionally, every country does it, england not least (aren't nearly all of their cricket team foreign?) but I don't want to see too many recruited like that or we'll become the butt of all jokes again. I don't know what Staunton's up to, it wasn't lack of players that stopped us qualifying for the world cup it was tactics.

[Roverstillidie]

:confused: Daft daft. So we have 10 players born and bred in Ireland and the 11th players is someone who also plays for us of Irish blood but who wants to enhance his career, so we should hope we don't qualify because of that.

It takes all sorts I suppose.

I can never understand this Aryan pure blood theory. We have enough "pure Irishmen" turning their back on their country and retiring early and now we want to sneer at the 2nd generation who want to play for whatever reason. The motivation of a player doesn't interest me so long as he does the business. At least he's prepared to put on the green shirt unlike some of his aryan brethern.

you are deliberatly missing the point. this, as has been repeated ad nauseum, is not about genuine diaspora representing the country of their forefathers like kilbane or kelly.
this is about guys like morrison who chose ireland over other options to play international football soely to further their careers.
the fact that stan is going back down this route is a cop out, as TH says, it lets the FAI off the hook for not bothering with any youth systems and vision.
im irritated now by those 2/3g's who automatically assume mercinary refers to them, it doesnt. it refers to those who only want to play for ireland because the nightlife is better in dublin than cardiff or because there is a contract clause that gets them an extra couple of quid a week if they become international players or helps them come contract chat time.

[lopez]

...And I've no issue with exploiting the international rule occasionally, every country does it, england not least (aren't nearly all of their cricket team foreign?)...I saw on the news the other day that Freddy Flintstone (or whatever his name is) was given the freedom of his home town. I asked my missus was that Cape Town, Jo'burg or Harare? :D (Yeah, yeah, I know it was somewhere up north, but I had a point)

[Dodge]

Voting going pretty much as expected . LOI fans against it, those who don't foolow a club in ireland for it.

[Risteard]

Voting going pretty much as expected . LOI fans against it, those who don't foolow a club in ireland for it.
Well, i'm an eL fan far more than the national team but accepting all arguments for more recognition of eL players i'd still vote the first option even if it was
"have your family raped and qualify for the World Cup".
I think the existing rules are fair in that we've never had a 2nd gen playing who didn't want to be playing. Do people forget how good world cups are?

[Schumi]

i'd still vote the first option even if it was
"have your family raped and qualify for the World Cup".
Glad I'm not related to you! :eek:

[livehead1]

"have your family raped and qualify for the World Cup".
I think the existing rules are fair in that we've never had a 2nd gen playing who didn't want to be playing. Do people forget how good world cups are?

Did you mean Retard when you created your name and not Risteard?...but seriously, you gotta be having a laugh

[livehead1]

is it possible to follow an EL club without being a fan of the league?

[Shelsman]

As I said in another thread, if it's good enough for Poland and Russia to play 'naturalised' Nigerians and for Portugal, Tunisia and Middle Eastern Countries to play 'naturalised' Brazilians -none of whom have blood ties to their 'FIFA' Country, then we should not get so hung up about someone who has an Irish Grandparent.

Probably not ideal, but that's the way it is in International soccer these days.
:(

[Tired&Emotional]

Voting going pretty much as expected . LOI fans against it, those who don't foolow a club in ireland for it.

Can we make a leap and say, at the moment (56% v's 54%), the majority (no matter the magin) put their country before clubs in their country?:D

[Roverstillidie]

As I said in another thread, if it's good enough for Poland and Russia to play 'naturalised' Nigerians and for Portugal, Tunisia and Middle Eastern Countries to play 'naturalised' Brazilians -none of whom have blood ties to their 'FIFA' Country, then we should not get so hung up about someone who has an Irish Grandparent.

Probably not ideal, but that's the way it is in International soccer these days.
:(

poland and Russia havent got a policy of relying on it. and those nigerians actually live and play in poland and russia. so its not the same thing at all, is it.

[Jerry The Saint]

england not least (aren't nearly all of their cricket team foreign?)

Well if, by "nearly all", you mean one, then yes.:)

Pietersen has an English mother and Geraint Jones has two Welsh parents so I think most people are willing to allow for 2nd generation nationality at least. I'll give you Andrew Strauss (although he has been living in England since he was 7). Or does that make him "more English" than someone with one parent from there? Depends what way you want to look at it I suppose.

Not to say that there haven't been dubious cases in the past but I think rugby (particularly Scotland and Wales) is one of the worst offenders in this regard. In some cases grandparents were found out not to even be from the countries involved. And three years residency is all you need to qualify. I heard a story about an Englishman who tried to declare for Wales because he spent 3 years with a Welsh club. Only problem was he was still living in England the whole time! Also New Zealand have been shameless in giving out scholarships to any promising Pacific Islander in order to claim the best for the All-Blacks. The equivalent would be the England FA automatically claiming all Irish schoolboys who join English clubs. :mad:

[youngirish]

F**k the granny rule, we don't need any of the players being suggested enough IMO to go back to the days whereby half the Irish team were British. It made a bit of a nonsense of all our great achievements under Jack when everyone was aware that the majority of the players involved weren't even Irish. In recent years at least we've had the situation were most of our players were Irish and we put in our best performances in any major championships in 2002 with those mainly Irish players (We were s**te in 1994, Holland just laughed at us and boring as f**k in 1990).

If ever the granny rule was going to be implemented it should have been done 2-3 years ago when we had a shortage of talent on the horizon. It may even have helped us qualify for the European Championships and the World Cup. Now, however, we've enough young talent coming through and that should be given the chance instead of sticking with older, less committed, England rejects.

If your father and/or mother are Irish and you're born and raised abroad then I'd say you are at least partially Irish and if you're committed to playing for Ireland from day 1 then by all means ply your trade for us. I'd be happy to have such players. If only your granny is Irish I don't think that makes anyone Irish (in the slighest) so I'd prefer those players to steer clear.

[lopez]

poland and Russia havent got a policy of relying on it. and those nigerians actually live and play in poland and russia. so its not the same thing at all, is it.You're right: It's not the same thing: The players the FAI seek have blood of the country they are representing. Example: the geezer who went to Portsmouth via Panathinaikos didn't hang around too much in Poland, but in your eyes he's far worthier of citizenship than the grandson of an Irish emigrant who married a foreigner. And did either of these countries have so much of their population pushed out through emigration (70 million of some sort of Irish descent in the world compared with 5 million on the island)? Even at the height of East Gemany haemorrhaging people in 1989, Ireland was still losing more people per head.

The only thing the same is that all these players are career enhancers. Personally I wouldn't turn down a Nigerian who was passing through Ireland either if he becomes entitled to citizenship. Don't care if he got one of those dodgy deals that Albert set up for the Arab with his cat food factory in the nineties. If it's lawful, then do it. It's just that with a 'Ius sanguinis' approach one can always argue that the connection above everything else is a genealogical one which I'm afraid carries far more respect in gaining citizenship throughout the world than residency.

Well if, by "nearly all", you mean one, then yes.:)Nice to see that happening now, because that wasn't the case in the 80s. I mean that's like having the Irish compromise rule side made up of Aussies. Personally they can have the side packed full of martians resident in Surrey, just don't start lecturing other countries about who they pick.

[Roverstillidie]

lopez, if you get off your high horse for a minuite and actually read what people are saying we might be able to have an informed debate.

no-one so far has suggested that genuine diaspora be blocked from representing ireland.

merely that staunton openly admitting he will try and find non-irish players who are technically eligible but dont know it is a regressive step and a very short-termist view.

olisadebe is a polish citizen by virtue of nationalisation. clinton morrison is a chancer. when you can spot the difference, you might be able to approach this rationally.

[Dodge]

Can we make a leap and say, at the moment (56% v's 54%), the majority (no matter the magin) put their country before clubs in their country?:D
I'd say that 54% put their country ahead of their clubs in other countres..

[pete]

Can we make a leap and say, at the moment (56% v's 54%), the majority (no matter the magin) put their country before clubs in their country?:D

I don't see this as a club versus country issue as few eL players will get in the squad let alone the team in either scenario. Just look back all the crap non-irish players who got a cap or two & wouldn't it be better than an irish kid who played for all those under age teams got that senior cap?

[NeilMcD]

How can you say 56% V54 % surely it should be 46 % V54% or 56% V44% . Otherwise it adds up to 110% and we have enough of that in football talk to be honest.

[Tired&Emotional]

Typo, obviously: was at 56/44 at the time!!
But the 110% thing - you're not wrong there!! ;)

[Lionel Ritchie]

Supposing ...just supposing there was a Santa ...and you could get a present off him -but in order to for him to get to you his sleigh would have to run over the Easter Bunny ...

would it be worth it? well would it. I'll add a poll.

[Tired&Emotional]

I don't see this as a club versus country issue as few eL players will get in the squad let alone the team in either scenario. Just look back all the crap non-irish players who got a cap or two & wouldn't it be better than an irish kid who played for all those under age teams got that senior cap?

Was a bit tongue-in-cheek tbh but yes you are right.

There have been some crap players who have not been born here that have worn the Green Jersey!
That argument has run its course, for now - we agree there are basically two opinions on this and we are roughly split down the middle.

Generally speaking though if one accepts that the game is at higher level across the water (thats why there is a long tradition of Irish players heading over there to ply their trade with, arguably, the best/better) then it is only natural that the selection process will start there. It becomes more difficult to PROPERLY dedicate time to two countries - we'll see if Stans promise on this will bear fruit...

Personally I hope he does cap some eL players but whether they will good enough themselves to claim and keep a place for Internationals is another thing (bearing in mind what I have said above already, 1st/2nd line)

[lopez]

...no-one so far has suggested that genuine diaspora be blocked from representing ireland.
There are at least three threads on the subject and certain posters (not you) have been against anyone without an Irish accent from getting picked. It's their opinion of course. Who am I to argue if they think a dog born in a stable is a horse.

merely that staunton openly admitting he will try and find non-irish players who are technically eligible but dont know it is a regressive step and a very short-termist view.
I'd agree with that view to a certain extent.

olisadebe is a polish citizen by virtue of nationalisation. clinton morrison is a chancer. when you can spot the difference, you might be able to approach this rationally.They're both chancers. Except Olisadebe probably needed a citizenship ceremony to go through complete with oath of allegience etc. while Morrisson needed a cheque for £35 for a Foreign Births Certificate. No country imposes such restrictions (generation difference notwithstanding) on whom it sees as descendents of its people. That might make Olisadebe more Polish than Morrison is Irish in your view but not mine, nor indeed it seems either government.

[Tired&Emotional]

Supposing ...just supposing there was a Santa ...and you could get a present off him -but in order to for him to get to you his sleigh would have to run over the Easter Bunny ...

would it be worth it? well would it. I'll add a poll.

Last I heard, they were both fictional:confused: ;)

[livehead1]

Supposing ...just supposing there was a Santa ...and you could get a present off him -but in order to for him to get to you his sleigh would have to run over the Easter Bunny ...

would it be worth it? well would it. I'll add a poll.

I created this thread for a reason. That reason was to gauge an opinion of the feeling amongst irish football fans in relation to whether they would be prepared to sacrifice qualification for a major competition for the pride of being able to say that there were no mercenarys in our side. If you cannot see that then maybe you need to read through it again, there are many people who have contributed contradictive views on this thread. People may not agree with them but they are able to accept them and take them into account. Comments like yours are not welcome contributions, they are needless and stem from either a lack of knowledge on the subject or a distinct amount of ability to see what the question is asking. I would advise you to read the question again, if you wish to make a contribution to this discussion then that is more than welcome, providing that this contribution is going to be sensible and related to the topic in discussion, if not, you know where to go.

[Hither green]

Supposing ...just supposing there was a Santa ...and you could get a present off him -but in order to for him to get to you his sleigh would have to run over the Easter Bunny ...

would it be worth it? well would it. I'll add a poll.

Yes because all the Easter Bunny has to offer are a bunch of fecking chocolate eggs :)

[Lionel Ritchie]

I created this thread for a reason. That reason was to gauge an opinion of the feeling amongst irish football fans in relation to whether they would be prepared to sacrifice qualification for a major competition for the pride of being able to say that there were no mercenarys in our side. If you cannot see that then maybe you need to read through it again, there are many people who have contributed contradictive views on this thread. People may not agree with them but they are able to accept them and take them into account. Comments like yours are not welcome contributions, they are needless and stem from either a lack of knowledge on the subject or a distinct amount of ability to see what the question is asking. I would advise you to read the question again, if you wish to make a contribution to this discussion then that is more than welcome, providing that this contribution is going to be sensible and related to the topic in discussion, if not, you know where to go.

I thought my supposition was every bit as rational, reasonable and downright plausable as yours about our qualification for a tournament hingeing on our willingness to sell our pure gaelic celtic souls down the river so that someone you've deemed a "johnny foreigner" can be the catalyst, the linchpin, the final piece in the jigsaw as it were that somehow pushes us over the line.

If you want to romanticise about all Irish players being raised on the slopes of the twelve pins, recanting the mystic tale of an Tain Bo, hurl in hand and sliotar in fist then be my fcuking guest mate. But Irish citizenship is a legal matter -end of. If someone's entitled to it by grace of our law then best of luck to them (and not for you to sneer on their good fortune). If thereafter they happen to be handy footballers -then bonus for the rest of us.

[Macy]

There are at least three threads on the subject and certain posters (not you) have been against anyone without an Irish accent from getting picked. It's their opinion of course. Who am I to argue if they think a dog born in a stable is a horse.
They've been the minority though Lopez, unless you're trying to goad them out of the undergrowth? I think it's a bit disingenuous to continue to bring it up as if the majority who are against mercenaries also share that view.

[tetsujin1979]

perhaps slightly off-topic, but I'd like the opinions of those who voted not to play a mercenary - is this guy a mercenary or not? And would you have a problem with him playing for Ireland? And what if he decides to declare for his native country?
For me, nope, not at all. We're going to see more and more of this as Ireland becomes a more cosmopolitan society.

From http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=12&si=1548267

Name: Emeka Onwubiko
Age: 16
Born: Nigeria

IRISH underage international football is at its healthiest since the successful days of Brian Kerr in the late 90s. Following impressive displays by the under-17s and 19s late last year, they both face into an elite qualifying stage for the European Championship finals in March and May respectively.

But manager Sean McCaffrey may have to do without one of his brightest emerging talents when the under-17 team faces Romania, Israel and Serbia & Montenegro in Dublin at the end of March.

Emeka Onwubiko arrived in Ireland from Nigeria shortly after his father and mother three years ago and his progress through the ranks since then has been rapid. He has been part of the Irish under-15 and 16 set-ups for the last two years, but has now hit a stumbling block - he doesn't have an Irish passport.

The issue currently lies with the appropriate authorities, but as is the case with these applications, they tend to take longer than expected and all the 16-year-old can do is wait.

McCaffrey for one is hoping for a speedy conclusion as the striker is very much part of his plans.

Vincent Butler has been nurturing Onwubiko since he was encouraged to have a look at a youngster playing for St Kevin's Boys back in 2003. The Kennedy Cup, a competition where schoolboy leagues from all over Ireland send their most promising players, is the usual environment for unearthing emerging talent, but Onwubiko fell through that particular net and luckily Butler spotted him that day.

Since then he has represented Ireland a number of times, but, because of his visa situation, he has only been able to play home internationals. Despite that Onwubiko still managed to finish as top goalscorer for the under-16s last year.

Butler believes that the youngster definitely has the potential to be a professional footballer. At only 16 his pace, strength and touch are exceptional and that has attracted the attention of Premiership scouts.

However, like playing for the under-17s, Onwubiko must hold an Irish passport before being offered a pro-contract and this has already cost him a chance with Manchester City who turned down an opportunity to sign him.

West Bromwich Albion did offer him a two-year-deal which would commence in June and if the deal goes through, the Irish public could be hearing a lot more about Onwubiko over the next few years.

"It would be brilliant if I got a chance to play in England," says the youngster. "It's been great playing with Ireland over the last couple of years, but I was shocked when I found out I couldn't play anymore after all the hard work I had put in.

"After the first phase I thought that was it, it's over, but I have some hope now that I will get a passport and be able to play with the under-17s."

[Dodge]

BTW that lad has a dublin accent (for those who are hung up on accents...)

[Macy]

He's not a mercenary - he's come up through the ranks. He'd be a mercenary if he said he wanted to go and play for England now (but there's no evidence of that - just of another Irish club falling over themselves to send a young lad to England at the earliest opportunity).

[Hither green]

I’m sure that’ll be controversial for many. I guess, for obvious reasons, countries like england and France had to deal with this issue years ago whilst it’s quite a new one for Ireland but I don’t have a problem with him representing Ireland – assuming he becomes a citizen and is willing to commit to the country. But nor would I have a problem with him wanting to represent Nigeria. With population movements all countries are going to have to get used to such scenarios.

[Greenbod]

lopez, if you get off your high horse for a minuite and actually read what people are saying we might be able to have an informed debate.

no-one so far has suggested that genuine diaspora be blocked from representing ireland.

merely that staunton openly admitting he will try and find non-irish players who are technically eligible but dont know it is a regressive step and a very short-termist view.

olisadebe is a polish citizen by virtue of nationalisation. clinton morrison is a chancer. when you can spot the difference, you might be able to approach this rationally.

What is "technically eligible". There is no such thing. Either you are eligible or not. Irish citizen = eligible. Not Irish citizen = not eligible. Like it our not, Clinton Morrison is an Irish passport holder, and as such is as eligible as any other Irish citizen. The only valid reason for "blocking" any passport holder from representing Ireland should be based on their footballing ability.