Man United and Arsenal

[shedite]

If you took Henry out of Arsenal and Rooney and Van Nistelrooy out of United, where do you think they would end up in the league?

I reckon United would just about make the Champions League, and Arsenal would be lucky to get UEFA Cup.

[pete]

That used to be a big game that decided who won trophies. Now its just for league placing...

[Stuttgart88]

What on earth is Pascal Cygan doing at a club like Arsenal?

I thought O'Shea did well last night.

[joeSoap]

Arsenal are now p1ss poor...simply an average side that has lost all their flair and sparkle. I feel that Henry will head for the Nou Camp asap. They offered very little last night.

At least United gave it a go, but with the Dreadlocked Disaster Twins at centre half, and such outstanding creativity in central midfield with O'Shea and Fletcher(I'm removing my tongue from my cheek now) and the dancing one trick showponies out wide then their pretty decent strikers haven't a snowballs chance of scoring as many as they're capable of.

Sad reflection of how money rules now, but the only entertainment now is to see who finishes second, and who is relegated.

[razor]

I fell asleep during the 1st half for 20 minutes and missed absolutely nothing.

[tiktok]

One of the worst games I've seen in a while, lost what little interest I had in it by the end of the first half. Strange to hear even the half time pundits admit it was poor, Sky usually spin the 'talking points' as best they can.

[NeilMcD]

looks like Spurs have a decent chance of finishing above Arsenal this season. Would be great to see Robbie Keane in the Champions League in my view.

[De Town]

1st half was píss poor. 2nd half, United went for the winner. Arsenal didn't show anything. They played 5 across the middle for the whole 90 minutes. They didn't even "go for it" for the last 10 minutes or anything. They just didn't want to be beaten. No real interest in winning the game.

Wonder how many points Chelsea will win the league by...

[Poor Student]

God Arsenal are stuck in some rut. Wenger has some massive restructuring to do there. What is Cygan doing playing? For as long as I can remember now Arsenal have had paper thin depth in defence. A coupl of injuries and they're relying on Cygan. Perhaps finally moving to their new stadium will free up some funds for them. The whole stadium issue has been crippling for their transfer funds.

[Karlos]

God Arsenal are stuck in some rut. Wenger has some massive restructuring to do there. What is Cygan doing playing? For as long as I can remember now Arsenal have had paper thin depth in defence. A coupl of injuries and they're relying on Cygan. Perhaps finally moving to their new stadium will free up some funds for them. The whole stadium issue has been crippling for their transfer funds.

Cygan is playing because the best left back in the world (in my opinion) is injured and one of the most promising left backs in the world in Gael Clichy is also injured. With the excpetion of Chelsea who can field Gallas when Bridge & Del Horno are injured there isn't any team in the Premiership who can fill that position with a world class player when two regulars are missing.

In fairness to Cygan, he's playing out of position and has played more games in the christmas period than any other Arsenal player. He's played his part in a sequence of over 360 minutes without conceeding a goal. It's safe to say that were the two players who normally play in that position were avaialable he wouldn't be playing.

I do think that the critisicm of him is way over the top at times as it was with Gilberto before he got injured (some of it of course is fair). He was getting slated last year for deflecting a ball past Lehmann at one stage which was completely unavoidable. He's by no means a left back, by no means world class but even the cats and dogs in the street can see how is physical presence at corners and free kicks have greatly improved Arsenal's defensive solidity over the last number of weeks particulary as most of the goals we conceeded were from set plays. He's never once cribbed about not playing regulary and gives his best - I've not a single problem with Pascal Cygan as a squad member.

As for transfer funds, well they have always been available but the manager doesn't want to spend it and hasn't spent big since Wiltord in 2000 - even the Reyes deal was only an inital outlay of 5 million so it's nothing new and not a recent stadium development (in fact he spent more on Hleb this year :rolleyes: ). Arsenal are not as short on money as some sides of the media suggest - the stadium is locked in a long term deal with the bank and the recent sales of the housing at the redevelopment area of Highbury has boosted the coffers significantly. Season ticket sales have come in a year in advance and the leasing of long term corporate boxes and club level seating has ensured the bank loan is in order for the forseeable future.

Wenger has decided to dismantle the 2004 team slowly but surely and has bought youth and is sticking with it and like him I do believe they'll come good too but it's fustrating to watch at the moment. I really do think however that it's the mix of experience that's letting us down badly this season i.e. Henry, Pires, Ljungberg, Campbell and Bergkamp are not playing at the levels they usually do. Arsenal are playing with a squad of average age 21 with the likes of Fabregas, Toure, Reyes, Senderos, Flamini, Hleb, Cole, Clichy, Van Persie, Eboue all under 24 and almost all of these will be going to the World Cup as full internationals or will be full internationals by the turn of the year.

There's a great foundation there in my opinion and when Wenger moves on in 2007 - someone is going to get the benefit of this team who despite all the negativity are only 3 points off a Champions League spot with 18 or so games to go.

I'll stick my neck on the line and say I think Arsenal will finish in the top 4 (and above Spurs AGAIN! ).

[NeilMcD]

Faqir play Karlos good reply there. I think it will be nip and tuck between Arsenal and Spurs for the 4th spot and If spurs can improve their away form slighly they could do it. However if I was a betting man I would say Arsenal will do it in the end as Henry is worth a huge amount of points. Its going to be some game at Highbury.

[Poor Student]

Karlos I accept that Cygan is out of position but he has been a poor signing in general and let Arsenal down many times. Arsenal have lacked depth in defence for many years now. Touré himself was only an emergency conversion to centre back when Arsenal only had Campbell, Cygan and the relatively untested at the time Senderos left. Coverage at right back is similarly poor with only Lauren who some may argue is a converted winger. If you have someone as poor as Cygan to fill in the void even if you have two left backs injured then you need to dig deeper. I can only assume Wenger does not really have the funds to spread around as he has allowed this precarious lack of cover in defence to continue for sometime.

I agree with you that there is a deal of young talent at Arsenal and I also believe that they will finish 4th but I don't think it is good enough for a club of Arsenal to have such a slump in a transitional phase. Again I reckon if the big funds were really available this transition wouldn't have to take place so slowly.

[Karlos]

Faqir play Karlos good reply there. I think it will be nip and tuck between Arsenal and Spurs for the 4th spot and If spurs can improve their away form slighly they could do it. However if I was a betting man I would say Arsenal will do it in the end as Henry is worth a huge amount of points. Its going to be some game at Highbury.

I agree Neill. In some ways I'm delighted as it is now as it will bring back the real spirit of the North London Derby which has somewhat lost it's importance in recent years due to Arsenal's dominence. Spurs is always the game I want to win most and with it being potentially the second last game at highbury should either team reach the fa cup semi's, it could be an explosive end to the season. :)

[joeSoap]

Some good points, and fair play for your devout sense of loyalty to your club.:ball:

I'd question the Ashley Cole=World Class comparison, and while I'll agree with you that he's one of the best around today, World Class for me is in the Maldini, Roberto Carlos, Andy Brehme, Everaldo mould.

I also don't see how anybody can admire Cygan. No two ways about it, he is absolute manure. But obviously a favourite of Wengers.

I also think that unless ye do spend some of that alleged money that ye have lying around, then Spurs, Wigan and Bolton will be ahead of ye the way ye're playing...

[Karlos]

Karlos I accept that Cygan is out of position but he has been a poor signing in general and let Arsenal down many times. Arsenal have lacked depth in defence for many years now. Touré himself was only an emergency conversion to centre back when Arsenal only had Campbell, Cygan and the relatively untested at the time Senderos left. Coverage at right back is similarly poor with only Lauren who some may argue is a converted winger. If you have someone as poor as Cygan to fill in the void even if you have two left backs injured then you need to dig deeper. I can only assume Wenger does not really have the funds to spread around as he has allowed this precarious lack of cover in defence to continue for sometime.


Cygan was never signed as a first choice defender. For what he cost and what he's been (a loyal squad member) he's been fine. He's been a model pro during that time too admist some terribly inaccurate reporting on his performances.

Toure was playing centre back at International Level for Ivory Coast when he signed. He was only an emergency in the sence that he wasn't considered first choice ahead of Keown and Campbell (but not Cygan). Wenger gave him run outs off the bench in midfield positions but he has always been a mobile centre back. Similary with Senderos, he's behind Campbell and Toure for a centre back slot but wouldn't be behind Cygan. He played centre back for most of least season when Cygan WAS fit but Campbell was injured. If Senderos had an once of left back in him, I'm sure he'd be starting instead.

I don't agree that coverage at right back is poor - we have two full internationals at right back in Lauren and Eboue (as well as Toure who can slot in there). We have 3 Full internationals at centre back in Campbell, Toure & Senderos and a forth as back up in Cygan aswell as full international at Left Back in Cole with french under 21 player as cover. We have six full internationals fighting for 4 defensive spots, an under 21 player and Cygan.

Again name me another club besides Chelsea who can fill a position with a world class left back when there two first choices are unavailable?

My biggest problem has always been the mangers neglect to work as diligently as say George Graham on our defensive play. Wenger wants defenders to be offensive players, Graham wanted them to be defenders. We've seen a slice of George Graham in the last four Arsenal games and the attacking play is weaker as a result but they ain't conceeding either.

[Karlos]

I'd question the Ashley Cole=World Class comparison, and while I'll agree with you that he's one of the best around today, World Class for me is in the Maldini, Roberto Carlos, Andy Brehme, Everaldo mould.. Take your point on those other players mentioned but I think he's the best in the world at the moment. I wouldn't swap him for anything out there. :)



I also don't see how anybody can admire Cygan. No two ways about it, he is absolute manure. But obviously a favourite of Wengers. ... I admire his commitment, his loyalty and his willingness to try his best. I've made no attempt to big him up - he's far from a top player but does an adequate job most of the time. He's an easy target when things go wrong. I've watched him enough to know what qualities he does bring as a squad player and nothing more.



I also think that unless ye do spend some of that alleged money that ye have lying around, then Spurs, Wigan and Bolton will be ahead of ye the way ye're playing... I disagree, if we continue to stop conceeding goals then the goals will come at the other end. There is far too much fire power in that team. Don't get me wrong I hope to christ we buy and I'm fustrated as fook watching us play but I see the bigger picture long term.

I have seen the AGM reports though and there is money available but Le Boss just can't seem to make his mind up on who he wants. People are quick to forget we had an 18 million bid accepted for Julio Baptista last summer even after we shelled out 8 million on Hleb.

[joeSoap]

I agree with you that Cole is a huge loss to the team. He's due back shortly, but too many of the players that make ye tick are off form. And have been for a while. People aren't afraid of playing Arsenal any more. Thats not good for the game, and maybe ye should start questioning the almighty Wenger a little bit more. He has to shoulder a lot of the blame for this, yet nobody dare criticise him. Why??

[shedite]

How long is Cole out for? Arsenal are gonna be screwed when the African Nations comes around. Without Cole, and Lauren, Eboue and Toure off with national team, the only defenders they've left are Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Clichy, and Hoyte.

[Karlos]

How long is Cole out for? Arsenal are gonna be screwed when the African Nations comes around. Without Cole, and Lauren, Eboue and Toure off with national team, the only defenders they've left are Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Clichy, and Hoyte.

Cole is back Jan 16th and Lauren is retired from Internationals.

[Karlos]

I agree with you that Cole is a huge loss to the team. He's due back shortly, but too many of the players that make ye tick are off form. And have been for a while. Agree totally as I said above. Especialy the experienced players Henry, pires, Bergkamp and Campbell. The only exception to that was been Lehmann who is in outstanding form.. :)



People aren't afraid of playing Arsenal any more. Thats not good for the game, and maybe ye should start questioning the almighty Wenger a little bit more. He has to shoulder a lot of the blame for this, yet nobody dare criticise him. Why??

Wenger is the most successful manager in the history of the club and is given alot of grace in this regard (as Ferguson, Mourinho & Benitez to a lesser extent are). There are many who questioned and critiscised him before (including Arsenal fans) and he's always pulled through to win trophies. In 1998 he was laughed at for thinking he could win the league 12 points behind Utd, questioned over the sale of Overmars and Petit in 2000 (and buying Henry with the money who turned out to be the all time goalscoring legend!) and again in 2003 he was ridiculed for saying he felt his team could go unbeaten - he's been questioned again now.

Many Arsenal fans don't criticise him too heavily as he's generally seen as someone who knows what he's doing and he's proven that and there's nothing to say he won't be right in the long run again. I'm glad our fans don't jump on the 'sack the manager' bandwagon at the drop of a hat.

I've always felt he would walk away in 2007 after leading us into the new stadium something which he been instrumental in and think it will be the right time and the club with it's playing staff will be in a far healthier state than 10 years ago. He's overseen the most successful and entertaining years of the club and he can still win 3 trophies this year. We all know what happened the last time someone said 'you can't win nothing with kids'. I haven't lost faith in him yet.

[joeSoap]

Wenger is the most successful manager in the history of the club and is given alot of grace in this regard.


I haven't lost faith in him yet.
Admirable, and I agree with you, but yesterdays newspapers are old news, and even you must admit that last night for example he packed the midfield, and played for a draw in a must win game for the club. Surely that deserves tobe criticised.

[Stuttgart88]

Well said Karlos.

I think Arsenal's current run of form just highlights how remarkable their "invincible" season was. Even then the team had major flaws. As pointed out above, Toure is not a natural central defender & Lauren is not a natural right back. Lehmann is a decent 'keeper but certainly no more than that. They have never employed a traditional forward pairing and they almost never scored from set-pieces. Disipline up until recently was appalling.

Wenger is far from above criticism, but his record speaks for itself, no question.

I think Cygan is one of several "dud" signings he has made. He may be a good honest pro and that's fine but it frustrates me that Wenger feels the need to crowd out "local" talent with players of such mediocrity. And just about any "local" he has invested in has been a dud (Jeffers, Wright) that I could have told him about! How he can continue to ignore Shay Given is beyond me.

My only "permanent" criticism of Wenger is that I just feel its hard to relate to a club where almost all of its first XI are foreign and pretty much all of its second XI is too. I can't believe that so few British or Irish players have been good enough even despite their inflated prices.

I'm extremely grateful to Wenger for the extraordinary success he has brought to the club I've followed since the 3 Dublin lads were there, and the 3 from the North. I'm also grateful to him for ridding Arsenal of the boring tag that they had for so long. I greatly admire his emphasis on entertainment. The more I watch Chelsea the more it annoys me that Mourinho had the nerve to call Celtic "anti-football" in 2003.

So what if Arsenal will never be as big as MUFC, as Sir Alex pointed out this week? But they are a great club, the very essence of a what a club should be about. They are very much the focal point of the local community which is one thing that really strikes me every time I go to Highbury. I hope the same "feeling" remains when they move across the road.

[Karlos]

Admirable, and I agree with you, but yesterdays newspapers are old news, and even you must admit that last night for example he packed the midfield, and played for a draw in a must win game for the club. Surely that deserves tobe criticised.

If i'm being really honest, we went for it at home last year and got stuffed 4-2 by the Mancs. Nobody associated with Arsenal wanted to see a repeat of that and the damage a heavy defeat would have done to this Arsenal team would have been catasrophic and so I understand (not necessarily agree) why he went that way. We changed in the cup final and poxed a win but more importantly didn't conceed a goal and we didn't conceed again last night - 4 clean sheets in a row will help the confidence of that team and goals will come at the other end.

I'm not so sure the game was a must win last night though as with 18 games to go and only 3 points off the champions league spot, there is plently of time - we gained points on everyone around us bar United. I'm not sure evryone else will gain points against United.

The reality is that the league is long gone and ultimately that will probably be a point gained and another step on the road to defensive solidity.

[NeilMcD]

I do hope spurs go for it against Man Utd at home though. Spurs outplayed Man Utd at Old Trafford and I would not be happy if Jol played 5 across midfield against Man Utd and White Hart Lane.

[Karlos]

I think Cygan is one of several "dud" signings he has made. He may be a good honest pro and that's fine but it frustrates me that Wenger feels the need to crowd out "local" talent with players of such mediocrity. And just about any "local" he has invested in has been a dud (Jeffers, Wright) that I could have told him about! How he can continue to ignore Shay Given is beyond me. .

My only "permanent" criticism of Wenger is that I just feel its hard to relate to a club where almost all of its first XI are foreign and pretty much all of its second XI is too. I can't believe that so few British or Irish players have been good enough even despite their inflated prices.


Cygan fustrates the hell out of me at times too but I'd almost clasify him in the Gilles Grimandi and Remi Garde catagory i.e. their role being as squad member who is willing to come in at a drop of a hat and do their best. I think they don't upset the dressing room harmony and are adequate in an emergency. Wenger has always surronded himself with this type of player - I wouldn't be suprised if he's a big influence on squad morale a la Garde and Grimandi.

The UK player situation is a difficult one to argue with but there was some situations that didn't help. Matthew Upson for example was offered a contract extension but couldn't see himself forcing past Campbell, Adams & Keown at the time. Had he waited a year he would have got an England cap while playing for Arsenal. Wright & Jeffers didn't work out. Wright was badly affected by the last minute clanger away at Spurs and never recovered. Jeffers wasn't good enough, bags of potential but couldn't do it at a big club. Jermain Pennant is another who was good enough but messed it up for himself and was rightly shipped out - how many chances does a boy need. Bently got too big for his boots after scoring a goal Vs Boro and cribbed about it for months after - a similar scenario with Barrett. Stack I don't think was good enough but was very young and Keepers mature later so there's still hope there

Ultimately Wenger takes nationailty out of the question. If they are good enough and prepared to bide their time they will make it - Ashley Cole being the most prominent example.





So what if Arsenal will never be as big as MUFC, as Sir Alex pointed out this week? . Bigger than Spurs is all that matters down N5! ;)




But they are a great club, the very essence of a what a club should be about. They are very much the focal point of the local community which is one thing that really strikes me every time I go to Highbury. I hope the same "feeling" remains when they move across the road.

With the stadium literally around the corner i'm sure that feeling will remain. No doubt there will be a year or two of prawn sandwich followers due to the novelty of a hi-tech stadium but that will hopefully weed itself out. It will be a sad day when Highbury finally goes though. A great traditional stadium, with it's listed building stands and marble halls. :(

[Karlos]

I do hope spurs go for it against Man Utd at home though. Spurs outplayed Man Utd at Old Trafford and I would not be happy if Jol played 5 across midfield against Man Utd and White Hart Lane.

I think Spurs are a team playing with confidence Neil and I must say from my experiences of Spurs playing well, they always go for it at home when on form.

If Arsenal were flying I'd expect them too to go at any team at home and away and i felt they did try to some extent in the first half last night. I just thought Arsenal got more edgy in the second half when the possibility of collapsing presented itself. The fear of losing was greater at that stage and they are not a team with confidence at the moment.

[OwlsFan]

I am afraid you totally overrate Ashley Cole just as another Arsenal supporter on this Forum overrates the current Denis Bergkamp - I was subject to a personal attack becuase I said he was a mirthless drip who was past his sell by date and I haven't seen anything that had changed my opinion of him this season, albeit from the comfort of an armchair.

Ashley Cole reminds me of Terry Phelan. Plenty of pace but not a great distributor of the ball. Good but not great.

I always thought that Arsenal relied too heavily on Henry. With Viera gone and, if the press is to be believed, Henry to go soon after, I would be surprised if Arsenal regain their supremacy.

As an Owls fan, Arsenal to me will always be 1993 :(

[pete]

Spurs look to have good squad & respect to whoever is making the decisions on signings.

Good spine to the team & enough options in attack when players off form. They will miss King badly as Gardner is terrible - can see why Defender targetted in transfer window.

[Karlos]

I am afraid you totally overrate Ashley Cole just as another Arsenal supporter on this Forum overrates the current Denis Bergkamp - I was subject to a personal attack becuase I said he was a mirthless drip who was past his sell by date and I haven't seen anything that had changed my opinion of him this season, albeit from the comfort of an armchair.

Ashley Cole reminds me of Terry Phelan. Plenty of pace but not a great distributor of the ball. Good but not great

I disagree completely on this. There's a myriad of quotes i can pull up from the World's Top Managers on his performances for Arsenal and for England
at the last major tournament Euro 2004. He's only 24 and getting better and better annually both as an attacking force and a defender. Arsenal's dominant left sideded players Pires & Henry have a lot to thank Cole for not having them to worry about defending and being a valuable outlet on the offensive.


as a sidenote, Dennis Bergkamp today is nothing on the Dennis Bergkamp circa 1998 - a true genius but when your 37 you don't play like your 28.



As an Owls fan, Arsenal to me will always be 1993 :( God bless Steven Morrow and Andy Lineghan! :)

[OwlsFan]

As a sidenote, Dennis Bergkamp today is nothing on the Dennis Bergkamp circa 1998 - a true genius but when your 37 you don't play like your 28.

That's what I said is so many words.


God bless Steven Morrow and Andy Lineghan! :)

What really bugs me about that is I am not sure if they ever scored another goal for Arsenal. Imagine losing two Cup Finals to goals from Morrow and Andy Lineghan :eek: I was behind the goal for Lineghan's winner in the FA Cup Final. Woods should have saved it and the game gone to penos.

[sligoman]

I fell asleep for the whole of the 2nd half:o. It's not the same without Keane and Vieira anyway.

[Karlos]

That's what I said is so many words.. An you were right! ;)




What really bugs me about that is I am not sure if they ever scored another goal for Arsenal. Imagine losing two Cup Finals to goals from Morrow and Andy Lineghan :eek: I was behind the goal for Lineghan's winner in the FA Cup Final. Woods should have saved it and the game gone to penos.

I'm sure you won't agree on this but it was lovely to see such undung hero's getting the winning goals. Both hardly ever scored and were never really fan favourites up till that point but by god both wrote themselves into history that year! :)

[joeSoap]

I think they don't upset the dressing room harmony and are adequate in an emergency.(
Harmony to me is unison; people by and large speaking the same language in more ways than one. Arsenal on any other night for example have dialects or forms of: English, German, French, Spanish, Brazilian, Dutch, Belarussian, Swedish, Estonian, whatever the native tongue of Cameroon and the Ivory Coast is, Italian and Swiss to contend with.

Its true variety is the spice of life, but its impossible to see how all these guys can be on the same wavelength all the time, culturally as well as lingually. Only Cole, Campbell and Anthony Stokes are 'domestic' at the moment in the first team squad (Bentley and Hoyte are gone or on loan).

I'm not knocking it, but I can see serious flaws in its operation.

[NeilMcD]

Ashley cole is a top class player. About 2 years ago he was good going forward but very suspect at the back. But he has eradicated this from his game and he was top Class in Euro 2004 and ever since. A really good left full and there is not many better in the World Game in that Position.


Goint Point about confidence Karlos, but I would have liked Arsenal to have gone for it a bit more against Utd. Afterall Utd did have Fletcher and O Shea as their central pairing hardly top class or experienced, but actually both played or were let play well. So playing 5 in midfield in my view did not work as well as it should have. Fabregas and Gilberto should be able to handle Fletcher and O Shea anyday of the week

[OwlsFan]

I'm sure you won't agree on this but it was lovely to see such unsung heroes getting the winning goals. Both hardly ever scored and were never really fan favourites up till that point but by god both wrote themselves into history that year! :)

For the neutral or Arsenal supporter, yes. I am sure those players cherish those memories (even if Morrow broke his shoulder in the celebrations) far more than most of the other Arsenal players but I too will carry them to my grave. When you've won one major trophy in 70 years, you don't easily forget losing two finals in the one year to the same team. Still hurting :(

[Karlos]

Harmony to me is unison; people by and large speaking the same language in more ways than one. Arsenal on any other night for example have dialects or forms of: English, German, French, Spanish, Brazilian, Dutch, Belarussian, Swedish, Estonian, whatever the native tongue of Cameroon and the Ivory Coast is, Italian and Swiss to contend with.. The one vital ingredient is that all of the players with those nationalities (with the exception of Reyes) speak fluent perfect English. The Dutch guys speak better English than the English as does Jens Lehmann. Fabregas & Senderos have fluent English helped by living with an Irish woman in North London (who Senderos claimed jokingly tryed to poison him before the Ireland game!).

I don't believe language is the probelm at all and certainly wasn't in 2004 when a large bulk of this team where playing with even more Brazilians & French & only two other English players. The Ivory Coast lads speak both French & English. Another most important factor in all this is that the Manager himself is foreign and speaks 6 other languages.



Its true variety is the spice of life, but its impossible to see how all these guys can be on the same wavelength all the time, culturally as well as lingually. Only Cole, Campbell and Anthony Stokes are 'domestic' at the moment in the first team squad (Bentley and Hoyte are gone or on loan).

I'm not knocking it, but I can see serious flaws in its operation.

There's also Patrick Creagg who is Irish and listed as a first team squad member and Kerrea Gilbert from London as well as Fabrice Muamba who is from Congo (i think) by nationality but raised in England.

Stokes is also part of the reserve/carling cup team set up who regualry train with the first team of which there are 3 other Irish players in Tracey, Kelly & Creagg as well as 9 or 10 English youth international players (and that's leaving aside the 3 out on loan in Bentley, Smith & Hoyte). Granted only two English are first team regualars but it's a common fallacy that everyone at Arsenal is foreign.

As i said on an earlier post, Bentley & Pennant for example caused dressing room unrest when they were at the club and they were domestic born. It always been Wenger's stance that he would play players based on ability and not on nationality and it should be the case. He's paid to coach and put out the best 11 players regardless of where they are from.

[NeilMcD]

Another great post about Aresenal there Karlos, The only place that I think nationality would come into it would be for away games against Bolton West Brom Newcastle etc. This is were teams play hard and get into Arsenal under the impression that Arsenal are a bit of a soft touch. In fact Utd did this for about 4 or 5 games over the last 2 and half years too. I dont think language is a problem. I always found it strange that Arsenal did not do better in Europe like they are doing this season as their play seems better suited to it.

[Karlos]

Afterall Utd did have Fletcher and O Shea as their central pairing hardly top class or experienced, but actually both played or were let play well. So playing 5 in midfield in my view did not work as well as it should have. Fabregas and Gilberto should be able to handle Fletcher and O Shea anyday of the week

I don't think 5 in midfield has ever worked for Arsenal under Wenger. In fairness to him he put only one defensive midfilder in that 5 man midfield - Reyes, Fabregas, Hleb & Pires are all more attack minded than defensive but it's certainly didn't work. I think Cole's absence (and even more so Clichy's) has really effected our usually stronger left side where Pires and Henry bomb forward, link up with the left back and don't worry about defending too much. That's just not possible with Cygan at left back both from an attacking and defensive point of view although I still maintain he's brought a different type of stability in recent weeks. :)

[Karlos]

Another great post about Aresenal there Karlos, The only place that I think nationality would come into it would be for away games against Bolton West Brom Newcastle etc. . Nationailty in the sence of what to expect from away games in these places but even more so experience to deal with it. I felt Bolton and West Brom battered the young lads and Arsenal missed not just an Adams or a Keown but also a Vieira - it's at these away games that a physical presence more than anything has been missing


I always found it strange that Arsenal did not do better in Europe like they are doing this season as their play seems better suited to it.

It's funny cause people always say Arsenal are rubbish in Europe and too a large extent they are right. It's interesting to see that they were never knocked out by more than one goal or an away goal in the knockout stages. They've had one or two moments of lapses that really cost them - Valencia away, Bayern away, Chelsea at home are ones that instantly spring to mind - two of them were lost to late dramatic goals from winning positions and one from 5 minutes of madness in Germany. They are (were :o ) certainly capable of winning it in my opinion.

[joeSoap]

I don't think 5 in midfield has ever worked for Arsenal under Wenger.
You're right...It hasn't. Yet, he persists with it, and that to me is a major flaw in his ability. He, like Ferguson and Mourinho is an arrogant man,(perhaps you have to be tobe a successful manager) very much of the 'my way or the highway' philosophy. Great when you're winning, but no so cool at the moment for him. Ferguson went down a similar route a few seasons ago, trying to get United to play 'European' style football, and they were a a shambles to be fair, and it nearly cost him his job.

I believe that really successful sides suffer from a couple of things; complacency being one, and the fact that everyone wants a piece of them is another. It happened to United, its happening to Arsenal, and it will happen to Chelsea too in a few years when they can consider themselves to be half the side the United of the 94/03 era, or the Arsenal side from 98/04 were.

[ThatGuy]

I hope whatever idiot thought Man United were in the **** because a "crap" player like Gary Neville was made captain. Neville was the best player out there, and is as solid a right-full as you will find.

Definitely the worst standard of football I have seen between the sides since Wenger took over.

[Karlos]

You're right...It hasn't. Yet, he persists with it, and that to me is a major flaw in his ability.

Persists with it? I've seen him play five across the middle twice in about two and a half years :confused: He's consistantly played 4-4-1-1 at all other times including against Chelsea, Liverpool and in Europe. For whatever reason he's played it twice against United and not conceeded a goal which at least on one of the those occassions was the idea. While it didn't work offensively in Cardiff, he obviously saw a difference between conceeded 4 goals against them in 4-4-1-1 or conceeding none in 4-5-1. A major flaw is persisiting in a way against a team that won't work! While i'm by no means a fan of the sytem, I've no complaints with the two results got while using it. :)

[pete]

Arsenal are a spent force & only an injury to Henry away from mid table obscurity. Stokes has no chance at first team if can't make Carling Cup squad. Another Graham Barret is suspect.

[Karlos]

Arsenal are a spent force & only an injury to Henry away from mid table obscurity.

Interesting considering they missed Henry for final 8 games of run-in last season, scored 16 goals, picked up a trophy and jumped over United to finish 2nd. In the previous 8 games before his injury they only scored 12 and lost one of those games away to Bayern.

This season he missed 7 games in a row with Arsenal scoring 9 goals this time but losing two games. They also lost 2 games in the following 8 games after he returned.

The point I'm making is that generally the form of the team has been the same with or without Henry. There is more to the team than Theirry Henry, something which the daily rags, sky sports and many others fail to recognise. There's no doubt they are more attractive to watch with Henry playing but statistically the performances are no better. It's easy to use Henry as a reason to write off Arsenal flippantly. :ball:



Stokes has no chance at first team if can't make Carling Cup squad. Another Graham Barret is suspect The only reason Sokes didn't make the
most recent squad is through the form of Lupoli and Bendtner who joined the likes of
firstteamers Quincy and Van Persie in the squad. Tony is a year younger than all of these and should really be playing for the youth team rather than the reserves but his progress has been so quick, he's moved up and has played Carling Cup football this year.

I watched him last night in the reserve game against Ipswich and he did quite well, invloved in both moves for Lupoli's goals. He was excellent in the reserve game at Tottenham aswell, playing wide right, cutting in and causing loads of problems. Looks a real talent everytime I've seen him but won't leap over Lupoli and Bendter for a srtiker spot. Could push through as a winger though.

[Karlos]

Arsenal stengtened today with two good signings in problem area's in the from of Vieira lookalike Diaby from Auxerre and giant Striker Emanuel Adebayor. Don't know much about Diaby except that he was voted player of the tournamnent in Belfast at the U19 World (or was it European) Championships as was one Cesc Fabregas in the U17 CHampionships before signing for Arsenal. Diaby capatined the French to glory.

I have seen a fair deal of Adebayor at Monaco ovre the last two years and he will be a great asset to this Arsenal team who are short on real ariel presence. He's also quick and mobile which will help with the style of Arsenal's game. He scored 11 goals in 13 International games for Togo but will head off to the African Nations Cup immediately before making his debut for Arsenal. Wenger confirmed that both players were bought as first team players and no transfer fees were disclosed.

Good news for all the Gooners and great to see Arsene addressing the issues within the current playing staff. If rumours are to be believed, Theo Walcott of Southampton could be the next promising youngster to come through the marble halls (a source I know in the media tells me that Walcott himself was at the training ground yesterday along with Lowe and Woodward although none of the papers seem to have run with this today stating only Lowe and Woodward were there). Wenger today stated his interest but that a deal had not been struck. He's definetly one I'd like to see him add to the current squad.

Henry leaving, Cole leaving and not a hope of a single signing according to all the usual suspects - What a difference a couple of days make

Let there be no panic - "Arsene Knows!"