All Ireland League

[REVIP]

Checking through the Belfast Telegraph website to see if Larne had any prospect of avoiding relegation (2-2 away draw against Portdaown in midweek), I found this story:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/story.jsp?story=674106

Realistic?

[A face]

Yeah ... I have seen that.

IMO.... Anyone that cant recognise the benefits of having an all-Ireland league hasn't looked at the full picture yet.... to be honest, i actually think that because both leagues need the added commercial viability more now than if both league were affluent and stable, it far out-weighs all other arguments, including the security one that gets paraded out when ever someone needs an extra bit of support for their argument.

If people are serious about football on the island, it will happen .... if not, then it deserves what it gets.

[thejollyrodger]

An all ireland league will defintely happen. Anyone with any grey matter will figure that one out. Its just a matter of when. To be honest I wouldnt be in favour of the sooner rather than later argument. We have to sort our own league out first and get Genesis implemented and clubs have to crack Europe.

Plus if we put it off for 4-5 years it will give Shels and other big clubs a real head start.

[Gerrit]

Will UEFA allow it? Normally every independent national team requires an own league, which is why the League of Wales was created in the early nineties in order to keep the Welsh independent national team going. So first check if UEFA would allow a merger of the leagues without merging the national teams (which, let's be honest, will not work yet. An all-Ireland league probably would do fine and would be a good boost to football both south and north, but mixing the national teams would bring sectarianism at every game)

[REVIP]

I was looking to see what happened elsewhere.

I thought that maybe some of the smaller countries wouldn't have leagues, but Andorra, the Faroes and San Marino have.

http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/html2/countries/andorra.php#top%20division

http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/html2/countries/faroe.php

http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/html2/countries/sanmarino.php

However, all the Liechtenstein sides play in the Swiss league.

http://www.aboutaball.co.uk/html2/countries/liechtenstein.php

Perhaps UEFA's requirement would be fulfilled by the Irish League and League of Ireland continuing at the lower leagues - as happens in Wales where only the smaller teams play in the League of Wales.

[Plastic Paddy]

Perhaps UEFA's requirement would be fulfilled by the Irish League and League of Ireland continuing at the lower leagues - as happens in Wales where only the smaller teams play in the League of Wales.

Unlikely as the Welsh sides in the English pyramid structure were only allowed to stay because of "grandfather rights". A number of sides lower down the pyramid (Newport County, Colwyn Bay to name two) had to play their football outside Wales (at Moreton-in-Marsh and Northwich respectively) in order to maintain their place in the English game. As it was, it took a legal challenge from Newport before they were allowed to play football in their home city. Not for nothing is the club still nicknamed "the Exiles".

The only way I think this could work is if an all-Ireland league were instituted in the off-season, somewhat similar to the Royal League in Scandinavia. For that to happen, the seasons north and south would need to be aligned - either the Eircom League reverts to winter football or the Irish League comes into line with summer competition. The fruition of this all-Ireland proposal may yet be some way off.

:ball: PP

[Gerrit]

Apart from Liechtenstein (who have not enough teams for an own league) all UEFA members have an own domestic championship, and UEFA also demands that all FA's entering a national side in competitions to have also a domestic league. So the ideas of an all-Ireland league are all very promising and so, but maybe it'd be more realistic to first check if the UEFA is willing to make an exception of merging two leagues without merging two national teams.

In Belgium there are talks for many years now about a mixed league with Holland, but UEFA will not allow it so it's a useless discussion to discuss the set-up of the BeNe League without first having special permission to merge without merging Belgium and NL's national sides.

[Roverstillidie]

Apart from Liechtenstein (who have not enough teams for an own league) all UEFA members have an own domestic championship, and UEFA also demands that all FA's entering a national side in competitions to have also a domestic league. So the ideas of an all-Ireland league are all very promising and so, but maybe it'd be more realistic to first check if the UEFA is willing to make an exception of merging two leagues without merging two national teams.

In Belgium there are talks for many years now about a mixed league with Holland, but UEFA will not allow it so it's a useless discussion to discuss the set-up of the BeNe League without first having special permission to merge without merging Belgium and NL's national sides.

but this is a breakaway league, so there presumably would be a top division in each juristiction.

dont rule out UEFA bending the rules on this in the interests of 'peace and reconciliation'

[thejollyrodger]

Gerrit, what is to stop two leagues coming together for a competition like the Setanta Cup but instead of only having 4 teams from either league, having 10.

They would basically play in two leagues and there would only be 10 teams in both the home league and the two nations league. They would play 38 games over the season. I suppose UEFA wouldnt allow that either.

[Gerrit]

I think some see my comment as an indication of me being anti-all-Ireland? Nope, you got it wrong. I would like the idea myself.

I just say: before people get enthousiast and start planning, let's first check what is realistically possible.

A think like the Royal League is perfectly possible (we got that already with the Setanta Cup) but the problem is that UEFA as far as I know divides European places per country and not per league. I could be wrong here though. This means though that both ROI and NI would need to enter teams in Europe and that the nr 6 may go into Europe instead of the nr 5 (if the nr 6 would be highest placed team from ROI/NI they would take the place of a cross-border team ranked higher in the mixed league)
I could be wrong here though.

For national teams UEFA requires every FA enroling a national team to also have an own league. If Ireland and Northern Ireland want to remain independent national teams with a mixed team, a permission has to be asked to UEFA (in the same way that Liechtenstein had to get this exception -and got it-). I guess UEFA would be willing to discuss the proposal, but only allow the exception in case the prospects are very promising.

[pineapple stu]

We have to sort our own league out first and get Genesis implemented and clubs have to crack Europe.
Genesis mentions nothing about an All-Ireland league, don't forget. Genesis is one of the most shoddy pieces of "expert" work I've ever seen and its implementation could be seriously damaging for the game in Ireland.

On a separate issue, if an All-Ireland league does come to pass, how many teams should be in the Premier? 10? 12? 16? 18?

[Gerrit]

I would say 16 would be a nice one, maybe 18? 8 or 9 from both sides of the border, maybe with two First Divisions (one for NI + northern ROI counties, and then one for all counties south of the Dublin-Galway line)

[crc]

Will UEFA allow it? Normally every independent national team requires an own leagueEven if they don't, the league could still be formed as a break-away. Even the threat of a break-away might be enough. In fact, a threat of a break-away is probably what's needed to force the hands of the IFA and FAI! The down-side of that would be exclusion from European football (a big minus), but there's nothing stopping a group of clubs from forming their own league outside of the FIFA/UEFA/IFA/FAI structures; under EU rules Shels, Derry, Glentoran, etc are free to trade in whatever way they want. UEFA might be forced to concede an all-Ireland league within their structures in order to prevent a precedent of "major" European league(s) leaving the fold. UEFA probably don't give a rat's a$$ about Irish football, but they do care about G14 leaving the Champion's League!


I would say 16 would be a nice one I'd say 16 is about the right number. Take the top 6 or 7 from both sides and fill the other 4 or 2 via a play-off between the teams that just missed out. That way there's equality between North and South, but avoids the possibility of including poor sides at the expense of a good team from the other league.


and then one for all counties south of the Dublin-Galway line) The Dublin-Galway line is a poor marker, there are about twice as many teams above it than below. I don't mind (or care for that matter) what the 2nd tier looks like, but a possibility might be to have a 3-way split (i.e. an Ulster league, a Leinster league, and a Connaught-Munster League).

[pineapple stu]

Problem with 16 teams is that it gives only 30 league games a season. Maybe start the year with an expanded Setanta Cup style competition?

Any north/south regional First Division would be done on the basis of northernmost ten (say) into the northern division and the southernmost ten into the southern division. The line would move about.

Where do NI clubs stand on summer football? Or where would eL clubs stand on a return to winter football?

[deadman]

UEFA probably don't give a rat's a$$ about Irish football, but they do care about G14 leaving the Champion's League!


very true, they won't necessarily care what happens here but it's the precedent that they would be setting that would be the main cause for their concern.
it would surely lead to lobbying from those in favour of a 'Benelux' league ... and i'm sure they won't want to bring that head ache on themselves.

a year or two ago i believe FIFA objected to a team from Mexico joining the MLS in the land where anything goes
although in contrast a team from Auckland are playing in the new Aussie A League

like all rules. there to be broken

[crc]

a year or two ago i believe FIFA objected to a team from Mexico joining the MLS in the land where anything goes Chivas USA (owned by Chivas in Mexico) now play in the MLS based in LA. The reason that was stopped is probably because the MLS is a quasi-FIFA project. The MLS was a requirement for the USA to get the World Cup in '94. I'm sure if the MLS has broken the rules US-Soccer could have been looking at a law suit.

although in contrast a team from Auckland are playing in the new Aussie A League
This is a much better example IMO. Also look at the 'United Soccer League' that operates with the main clubs in Canada and the second tier in the US (I posted the details on another thread).

[REVIP]

Gerrit, what is to stop two leagues coming together for a competition like the Setanta Cup but instead of only having 4 teams from either league, having 10.

They would basically play in two leagues and there would only be 10 teams in both the home league and the two nations league. They would play 38 games over the season. I suppose UEFA wouldnt allow that either.

A full Setanta League on top of the two domestic leagues would presumably only be really viable for clubs with full-time players.

It would be hard to see how a club with part-timers, and without the fan base or financial backing to go full-time, could contemplate playing at both levels.

[pineapple stu]

UEFA probably don't give a rat's a$$ about Irish football, but they do care about G14 leaving the Champion's League!
I tihnk that's a bit harsh, to be honest. Whenever I check the UEFA (or FIFA) website, I'm impressed by the fact that smaller leagues get equal chance for coverage as the larger leagues - look at the articles on Cork and Shels in recent years. Obviously, they don't care too much about the specifics in developing our league - that's the FAI's job, not theirs - but I don't think UEFA are solely concerned with the G14 either.

[Gerrit]

Examples enough of teams playing a different country's league. The ones I know by heart:

* Derry City: Northern Ireland team in Ireland league
* Wrexham, Swansea, Cardiff: Welsh teams in English league
* Berwich Rangers: English team in Scottish league
* Campionese AS: Italian enclave in Switzerland, team plays in Swiss league's lower divisions
* San Marino: has an own amateur league + 1 professional team in Italian Serie C
* Andorra: has an own amateur league + 1 semi-pro team in Spain
* Aland Islands (Finland) have an own amateur league + teams in Swedish league
* 5 Canadian clubs play in the USA's "A League" (second division)
* New Zealand Knights play in Australia's A League
* the only club in Brunei plays in the Malaysian league
* The professional league of Hong Kong includes 1 team from mainland China
* all Liechtenstein-based clubs play in the league of Switzerland
* 1 German enclave in Switzerland (Budingen or so it's called :confused: ) has a team in the Swiss amateur leagues
* Western Sahara has one club (AS Boudjour) in Morocco's top division
* 1 English amateur team (not sure of the name) plays in Wales' league system


And not that FIFA will care, but in a Belgian amateur league (the sort of league not affiliated to the Belgian FA, league where players care more about the canteen afterwards) there's 1 Dutch team playing.