Tookie Williams executed in California

[joeSoap]

Schwarzenegger refuses to spare life of gang founder
13/12/2005 - 07:59:24

Gov Arnold Schwarzenegger refused to block the execution of Stanley Tookie Williams, rejecting the notion that the founder of the murderous Crips gang had atoned for his crimes and found redemption on death row.

With the US Supreme Court rejecting his final appeal, Williams, 51, is set to die by injection at San Quentin Prison at 8:01 Irish time for murdering four people during two 1979 hold-ups.

Williams’ case became one of the nation’s biggest death-row cause celebres in decades. It set off a nationwide debate over the possibility of redemption on death row with Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes arguing that Williams had made amends by writing children’s books about the dangers of gangs.

But Schwarzenegger suggested yesterday that Williams’ supposed change of heart was not genuine, noting that the inmate had not owned up to his crimes or shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

“Is Williams’ redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?” Schwarzenegger wrote less than 12 hours before the execution.

“Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption.”

Williams’ supporters were disappointed with the governor’s refusal to commute the death sentence to life in prison without parole.

“The governor’s 96-hour wait to give an answer was a cowardly act and was torturous,” said former “M*A*S*H” star Mike Farrell, a death penalty opponent.

“I would suggest that had he the courage of his convictions he could have gone over to San Quentin and met with Stanley Williams himself and made a determination rather than letting his staff legal adviser write this garbage.”

Williams stood to become the 12th person executed in California since lawmakers reinstated the death penalty in 1977.

He was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple’s daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Just before the governor announced his decision, the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals denied Williams’ request for a reprieve, saying there was no “clear and convincing evidence of actual innocence.”

Later in the evening, additional last-ditch requests to halt the execution were rejected by the US Supreme Court, the 9th Circuit and Schwarzenegger.

Just three hours before Williams was scheduled to die, his lawyers sent the governor a second request for a stay, saying a fourth witness who could help prove his innocence had come forward. The governor denied that request as well.

The last California governor to grant clemency was Ronald Reagan, who spared a mentally infirm killer in 1967. Schwarzenegger – a Republican who has come under fire from members of his own party as too accommodating to liberals – rejected clemency twice before during his two years in office.

Singer Joan Baez arrived at the prison gate as night fell. She sang Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on a small plywood stage set up just outside the gates.

A contingent of 40 people who had walked the approximately 25 miles from San Francisco arrived earlier at the prison holding signs calling for an end to “state-sponsored murder.”

Others drawn to the site of the pending execution said they wanted to honour the memory of Williams’ victims.

In denying clemency to Williams, Schwarzenegger said that the evidence of his guilt was “strong and compelling,” and he dismissed suggestions that the trial was unfair.

Schwarzenegger also pointed out the brutality of the crimes, noting that Williams allegedly said about one of the killings, “You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.”

According to the governor’s account, Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes.

In addition, the governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book “Life in Prison” to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson - “a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems.”

Schwarzenegger also noted that there is “little mention or atonement in his writings and his plea for clemency of the countless murders committed by the Crips following the lifestyle Williams once espoused. The senseless killing that has ruined many families, particularly in African-American communities, in the name of the Crips and gang warfare is a tragedy of our modern culture.”

Williams and a friend founded the Crips in Los Angeles in 1971. Authorities say it is responsible for hundreds of deaths, many of them in battles with the rival Bloods for turf and control of the drug trade.

Among the celebrities who took up Williams’ cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in Dead Man Walking; and Bianca Jagger.

During Williams’ 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

“If Stanley Williams does not merit clemency,” defence attorney Peter Fleming asked, “what meaning does clemency retain in this state?”

Williams was moved to a “death watch cell” at around 4am GMT. Corrections Department spokeswoman Elaine Jennings described him as “co-operative and calm.”

Supporters and members of his legal team met with Williams before Schwarzenegger’s decision was announced.

The Rev Jesse Jackson, who joined death penalty opponents marching to the prison across the Golden Gate Bridge after dawn, was seen leaving San Quentin.

The California Highway Patrol tightened security outside the prison, where hundreds of people were expected to rally.

At least publicly, the person apparently least occupied with his fate seemed to be Williams himself.

“Me fearing what I’m facing, what possible good is it going to do for me? How is that going to benefit me?” Williams said in a recent interview. “If it’s my time to be executed, what’s all the ranting and raving going to do?”

[Peadar]

Williams’ request for clemency was denied by Schwarzenegger. A man who has made his fortune from the glorification of extreme violence.

Is the world a better place without Williams?
Would it be a better place without Schwarzenegger?

[joeSoap]

Is the world a better place without Williams?
Would it be a better place without Schwarzenegger?Probably yes on both counts....

[Peadar]

Probably yes on both counts....

One of them was locked away behind bars though.

This execution has made him a huge cult hero now.

[Eire06]

I'm very against the death penalty for three main reasons...

1. Having criminals die is giving them the easy way out they should live their whole lives behind bars and have to live with what they have done...
2. There could have easily been a miscarriage of Justice which would result in the death of an innocent person..
3. Who has the right to say who lives and who dies... 'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone'

Who is Schwarzenegger to think he can play God and say who can live and who cannot..

[Peadar]

Who is Schwarzenegger to think he can play God and say who can live and who cannot..

Don't you know he's the Terminator! :D

[paul_oshea]

1. Having criminals die is giving them the easy way out they should live their whole lives behind bars and have to live with what they have done...

well said. dont know if ye quoted them or not, but 3 very good points bar the let he who cast bit, there is a difference between stealing a bar of chocolate and murdering 4 people.

if someone is guilty beyound doubt though, i think they should be tortured at least twice weekly, i mean no one knows the pain (physical, whatever about the mental fear before it happens) of being shot/beatean/whatever to death. so at least that way there can be some justice for the murders committed by said person. putting someone behind bars is only a quarter of the way there a mon avis.

putting someone behind bars costs money though, killing them saves a lot of tax payers money, which is a big problem in kali-for-ni-A at the mo!!!


Don't you know he's the Terminator!

how ironic, how apt.

[Block G Raptor]

Don't you know he's the Terminator! :D


how ironic, how apt.

How Bad the taste
Jebus peadar you astound even me

[superfrank]

RIP Tookie. He did do it but he redeemed himself in my eyes.

[aido_b]

America is an absolute joke, typical poxy country that thinks it can play god. I followed tookies life well before the movie redemption was made and he did redeem himself, he had done wrong but was more use to the world alive rather than dead

[paul_oshea]

he had done wrong

you just have too!!!!

aido ye should come down to london for a weekend on the beer!!

[A face]

Question asked today ..... "but isn't it easier on the tax payers, not having to pay for them to be keep locked for life"

Discuss !!!

[Block G Raptor]

Remember seeing a placard outside a jail in the us when someone else was being Murdered by the state
I Think It Said it all
"why do we kill people for killing people to show People that killing people is wrong?"

or as ghandi put it an "eye for an eye leaves both men blind"

execution is wrong end of
the American Idea is that execution is a deterent but they still have the highest murder rate in the world THE DETERRENT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING

[liam88]

In principle i'm agianst the death penalty-all good points made on here and there is soemthing slightly barbaric about a state where the goevernment injects people with poisons to make their organs explode.

However, with people like William's I wouldn't waste the energy campaigning against it. I'm not saying I condone execution-and I would activley campaign against all the people who have been 'executed' (murdered) in China for stealing CD's or food. But on a case by case basis I don't see why I should care what happened to this 'man'-who slaughtered four human beings, while there's genocide's in Burma and Darfur, people getting raped in London and child abductions in Surrey (to name just 4 instances which I can channel my energies into preventing!)
To be honest once someone has murdered or raped someone in cold blood (normally for greed) they don't deserve the time of day.

Just sad that this all goes on in the world

[Lim till i die]

America is an absolute joke, typical poxy country that thinks it can play god. I followed tookies life well before the movie redemption was made and he did redeem himself, he had done wrong but was more use to the world alive rather than dead

I don't agree with all gang members being treated harshly as Americas gang-culture is as much down to gaping-wide inequalities in society as it is to racial minorities acting the scumbag, almost definitely more so. However, this guy was truly asking

Useful?? Locked in his cage?? The man helped found the Crips for fupp sake. He was a dirty nasty, piece of crap. Wonderful how all these people redeem themselves on death row but wouldn't it be even better if just once they managed to redeem themselves before murdering someone. He killed four people, good riddance.

As for some of the celebs on his side:
Snoop Dogg: Former Crip, Convicted crack-dealer
Jesse Jackson: Another pathetic attempt at stopping black-America from seeing what an uncle-Tom he is
Sean Penn: Bleeding heart, cry me a river, publicity seeeking arch-liberal and all round pain in the ar$e

In response to A face's post, if I was a tax payer then yes, I would be pi$$ed off at my tax money going to keeping pieces of dirt like "Tookie" in prison clothes and gruel.

[joeSoap]

Too much sympathy for 'Tookie' perhaps??

He was guilty of heinous crimes, and I wonder would he have found 'redemption' had he not been caught and sentenced.?

[Peadar]

I wonder would he have found 'redemption' had he not been caught and sentenced.?

He certainly wouldn't have has as much free time on his hands for reflection. ;)

[jebus]

In principle i'm agianst the death penalty-all good points made on here and there is soemthing slightly barbaric about a state where the goevernment injects people with poisons to make their organs explode.

However, with people like William's I wouldn't waste the energy campaigning against it. I'm not saying I condone execution-and I would activley campaign against all the people who have been 'executed' (murdered) in China for stealing CD's or food. But on a case by case basis I don't see why I should care what happened to this 'man'-who slaughtered four human beings, while there's genocide's in Burma and Darfur, people getting raped in London and child abductions in Surrey (to name just 4 instances which I can channel my energies into preventing!)
To be honest once someone has murdered or raped someone in cold blood (normally for greed) they don't deserve the time of day.

Just sad that this all goes on in the world

Most sense made by anyone on this board in a long time. I can't really add anything extra to that so I'll just leave it as is

[superfrank]

Snoop Dogg: Former Crip, Convicted crack-dealer
You're never a "former" Crip unless you die.

[Lim till i die]

You're never a "former" Crip unless you die.

Ya thought that didn't really ring true myself as I typed it.

However, being a Pireu Blood myself I know little of Crip gang culture :p

[superfrank]

However, being a Pireu Blood myself I know little of Crip gang culture :p
Well I listen to Snoop Dogg so it's kinda obvious he's still a Crip.

Really? You have Bloods in Limerick?

[Thunderblaster]

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

[Hither green]

It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

Frying him doesn't bring them back either.

[Peadar]

Frying him doesn't bring them back either.

They didn't fry him, they marinated him!

[joeSoap]

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.


What Mr Nally did was nothing more to protect his life and his property against an individual with a horrendous criminal record. If John Frog Ward was alive 200 years ago, he would have been convicted at court and he would have been taken back to the place of detention from where he would be taken to a place where he would be hung by the neck until he was dead and his body disposed of by law. In them times, hanging was the short drop where the convict would struggle hard before death. An Irish man brought in the long drop, which speeded up death. Mr Ward got the punishment he deserved and it put many of his victim's minds at rest. Mr Nally should be freed from jail and made an Honourary Mayo Person of the Year..

So, you condone one form of murder, but not another??:confused:

[aido_b]

you just have too!!!!

aido ye should come down to london for a weekend on the beer!!


yeah will do paul, im down the end of january for 2 weeks working

[John83]

In response to A face's post, if I was a tax payer then yes, I would be pi$$ed off at my tax money going to keeping pieces of dirt like "Tookie" in prison clothes and gruel.
Dutch mate of mine sent me this:
http://www.cijfers.net/horror_03.html

En nee, executeren is bepaald niet goedkoper dan opsluiten. In de Amerikaanse staat Florida kost het veroordelen en terechtstellen van een moordenaar gemiddeld US $ 3 200 000,- Voor dat bedrag kun je ook zes mensen levenslang opsluiten...

Translates as:

Execution isn't cheaper than locking someone up for life. The price tag attached to covincting and executing a murderer in the American State of Florida amounts to US$ 3 200 000.- on average. That amount would suffice for locking up six people for a life time in jail.
Given the appeals system they have in place, it's not cheap to put a man to death, no matter how much he deserves it.

[Thunderblaster]

So, you condone one form of murder, but not another??:confused:

Mr. Nally was convicted of Manslaughter.

[Marked Man]

Dutch mate of mine sent me this:
http://www.cijfers.net/horror_03.html


Translates as:

Given the appeals system they have in place, it's not cheap to put a man to death, no matter how much he deserves it.

Which is why, in Texas, appeals are only allowable if new evidence is adduced within 30 days of the conviction. Otherwise, too bad.

[Dodge]

Never let Texas become the international standard. Jesus even in America its seen as too right wing...

[Marked Man]

Never let Texas become the international standard. Jesus even in America its seen as too right wing...

Not sure it is seen as too right wing any more here in the states, except on the coasts.

Wasn't suggesting that we should let it become the standard; just pointing out that the argument that we shouldn't have the death penalty on the basis of its costing more than life in prison cuts both ways.

[Fergie's Son]

Sometimes I stagger at the level of ignorance in Ireland. What's even worse is that we hold ourselves up to be more informed and clued in the then the Americans.

To begin, being against Tookie Williams' execution because you are against the death penalty is a perfectly reasonable and intellectually tenable position. Being against the death penalty because you believe Williams had reformed or wasn't guilty is not defensible.

As for the Governor, there really wasn't a lot that he could do. Williams had gone through more than 20 years of appeals. The court room is really the place for matters of guilt and innocence to play out. Over a long period of time with impartial triers of fact. The clemency appeal is there to try and avoid mistakes and/or halt the execution in extreme circumstances. The Governor has very little leeway. Put another way, for the Governor to just grant clemency willy-nilly would be to reject his role as a government official and also to reject more than 5 levels of the U.S. judicial system. That's a mighty burden to meet. So, blaming the Governor is just not appropriate.

As for Mr. Williams himself, it appears that he did not reform and the he did not deserve clemency.

Here are two articles on the subject. One from a left-wing point of view and the other from a right-wing point of view:

One from the Right wing press:

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re...le.asp?ID=20380
Despite his alleged turnaround, prison officials state Williams is still involved with the Crips, directing action from his jail cell for the past eleven years. San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon notes Tookie still maintains an “unusually large bank account,” being mailed checks 50 or 100 times larger than those other inmates (like Scott Peterson) receive. Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse – and continues to consort with Crips in prison.


And one from the left:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld...ts/13189808.htm
"By 1994, having firmly entrenched himself as the leader of the Crips at San Quentin, he wielded his power as his lieutenants and other minions were dispatched to carry out his objectives," according to the release.

[Marked Man]

[QUOTE=Fergie's Son]
Being against the death penalty because you believe Williams had reformed or wasn't guilty is not defensible.

Why not? Isn't there a straightforward argument based on the good that might be brought about by a reformed gang member, who has published work attempting to put young people off gangs?

And surely if you think he wasn't guilty there is an even more straightforward argument against executing him?

[Lionel Ritchie]

While I'm against capital punishment I find it difficult to summon sympathy for Williams.

There was a bizzarre statistic revealed on Morning Ireland about two weeks ago where a US commentator (quite pro-death penalty) claimed that in the thirty years since the re-introduction of the death penalty -no less than One Hundred THOUSAND innocent citizens have been shot dead by police forces across the country by accident, crossfire, friendly fire, mistaken identity etc...:confused:

I think his general point was to ask where are all the "placard waving leftie pinko liberals" who protest at a few hundred executions and why aren't they clamouring for the cops to be disarmed? ( I think he'll find many of them are -but when your constitution enshrines the right to bear arms your police force isn't much of a 'force' without the right to bear more than you.

[Fergie's Son]

Why not? Isn't there a straightforward argument based on the good that might be brought about by a reformed gang member, who has published work attempting to put young people off gangs?

And surely if you think he wasn't guilty there is an even more straightforward argument against executing him?

The point is that there is no evidence that he has reformed. In fact, everything suggests that he did not reform at all. He has never expressed any remorse for his crimes, he has never assisted the police in infiltrating the Crips (he could do more with that than with 1,000 children's books) and there is even evidence that he continued to run the Crips whilst in jail. Indeed, he was connected with a plot to escape from prison that involved killing several people.

He was found guilty in numerous courts and has had more than 20 years of appeal. The courts are the best place to hear evidence and establish a persons' guilt or innocence.

Being against his execution because you are against capital punishment is fine. Being against his execution because you think he was innocent or that he "reformed" is not. The facts clearly show that he was both guilty and anything but reformed.

[tricky_colour]

Question asked today ..... "but isn't it easier on the tax payers, not having to pay for them to be keep locked for life"

Discuss !!!

I suppose you could make a similar arguement for joy riders etc..
Apparently there is a guy in Iran who is to be executed for being drunk
(drinking alcohol). (Don't think I will be holidaying there ;) )

Apart from anything else I am against the death penalty because miscarriages
of justice do happen, apparently it's called capital
punishment because you generally 'get off' if you are wealthy and can
afford good lawyers so it is your capital (money) which is punished in
paying the lawyers fees, O J Simpson for example.
Most of the people in the USA who get executed are poor and black.

Apparently US state of Illinois alone, from 1977 to 2000 executed 13
people subsequently found to be innocent!!

Also the list of countries which use capital punishment tends to be
opressive regimes such as Iran, China, USA etc...

[Marked Man]

"The point is that there is no evidence that he has reformed. In fact, everything suggests that he did not reform at all. He has never expressed any remorse for his crimes, he has never assisted the police in infiltrating the Crips (he could do more with that than with 1,000 children's books) and there is even evidence that he continued to run the Crips whilst in jail. Indeed, he was connected with a plot to escape from prison that involved killing several people."

In fairness, now. The man claimed to be innocent. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. But he can't very well express remorse for murder and claim to be innocent, can he?

"He was found guilty in numerous courts and has had more than 20 years of appeal. The courts are the best place to hear evidence and establish a persons' guilt or innocence."

If you get a chance, take a look at "After Innocence," a new documentary on the lives of a group of men here in the states, each of whom was wrongly sentenced to life in prison, and later exhonerated by DNA evidence. Luckily for them, they were in states that did not have the death penalty. Each of them were also found guilty in numerous courts.

"Being against his execution because you are against capital punishment is fine. Being against his execution because you think he was innocent or that he "reformed" is not. The facts clearly show that he was both guilty and anything but reformed."

The facts clearly showed that the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four were guilty too at the time of their convictions. I've never been sure enough of anything to stake someone's life on my confidence.

[Fergie's Son]

In fairness, now. The man claimed to be innocent. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. But he can't very well express remorse for murder and claim to be innocent, can he?


He was found guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. He subsequently had more than 20 years of appeals through 5 different courts. No system is perfect but this is the best system we have. Based on the detailed analysis of the courts I'd say he was most certainly guilty.


If you get a chance, take a look at "After Innocence," a new documentary on the lives of a group of men here in the states, each of whom was wrongly sentenced to life in prison, and later exhonerated by DNA evidence. Luckily for them, they were in states that did not have the death penalty. Each of them were also found guilty in numerous courts.

I live in the US and I am quite against the death penalty. Again, please try and read people's arguments before commenting. If you are against the death penalty because you are against the idea of capital punishment then I agree with you. To say, however, that you are against the death penalty because Tookie Williams was innocent or that he had reformed is simply wrong. He was not innocent and he most certainly had not reformed. See the difference?

[Marked Man]

[QUOTE=Fergie's Son]He was found guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. He subsequently had more than 20 years of appeals through 5 different courts. No system is perfect but this is the best system we have. Based on the detailed analysis of the courts I'd say he was most certainly guilty.

Take a look at today's New York Times, and there is an editorial discussing a case of a severely mentally handicapped person in Texas who will most likely be executed, and where the appeals court has refused to hear evidence relating to his IQ. Even the best system (assuming that this is the best system) makes mistakes.

I live in the US and I am quite against the death penalty. Again, please try and read people's arguments before commenting.

Now if you're going to get snippy with people, make sure you read their posts first yourself. Otherwise you end up looking silly. Show me anything I said that suggested you didn't live in the US or were not against the death penalty.

If you are against the death penalty because you are against the idea of capital punishment then I agree with you. To say, however, that you are against the death penalty because Tookie Williams was innocent or that he had reformed is simply wrong. He was not innocent and he most certainly had not reformed. See the difference?

Thanks for the Sarcasm 101.
I have no idea whether or not he was innocent. I'll agree that the evidence strongly suggests his guilt. But as I pointed out earlier, the evidence has often strongly suggested the guilt of the innocent. If he was innocent, he can't reform (see my last post). If he was guilty, why would you insist that reforming requires him to inform on other (minority) members of gangs, when he has excellent reason to believe that none of them would get a fair trial (blacks, hispanics here are up to 7 times more likely to be found guilty and be sentenced to death). I don't buy at all the line that says you have to inform on everyone you knew to show that you have reformed

[Marked Man]

From today's New York Times

Rushing to Execute in Texas
The Supreme Court has held that it is unconstitutional to execute the mentally retarded, and Marvin Lee Wilson appears to fall into that category. But Mr. Wilson, who is on Texas' death row, may be executed anyway, because his lawyer missed a deadline, and the federal appeals court that rejected his claim last week is blind to the injustice of what is happening. Mr. Wilson's execution should be blocked. Beyond that, his case should cause Congress to stop its reckless campaign to make it even easier than it is now to carry out executions.

Mr. Wilson, whose I.Q. was measured at 61, appears to meet the legal standard for mental retardation. The Constitution therefore prohibits him from being put to death. But the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit does not seem to care. It ruled last week that because his lawyer filed his legal papers late, he has forfeited his right to object.

It is easy to see how Mr. Wilson's lawyer made a mistake. The morass of rules that have developed for when death row inmates must file papers in different state and federal courts makes occasional errors inevitable. Whatever the skills of Mr. Wilson's lawyer, the system as a whole is filled with overburdened, unenergetic and incompetent lawyers, as the Texas Defender Service documented in a report entitled "Lethal Indifference."

It is the courts' job to ensure that inadequate lawyering does not lead to people who are not eligible for the death penalty, like Mr. Wilson, being executed. But the Fifth Circuit did not even bother to address his most critical claim: that a federal law about how cases are to be handled should not trump the Supreme Court's determination that the Constitution does not permit a whole class of people to be put to death.

If a lawyer's slip-up can lead to the execution of someone who is exempt from capital punishment, the American justice system is diminished. Republicans in Congress are pushing for passage of the Streamlined Procedures Act, a bad law that would make it even more likely that mistakes are made in administering capital punishment. Congress should drop that bill and fix the flaws in the current system that allow Mr. Wilson to be headed toward an execution for which he is constitutionally ineligible.

[Fergie's Son]

Again, you're missing the point. Williams was clearly guilty. He had a full jury trial and over 20 years of appeals. The system isn't perfect but it's the best we have. If you're argument is that he should not be executed because the death penalty is morally wrong and can result in an irreversible mistake then that's fine. If, however, you are suggesting that Williams is innocent then your argument falters significantly. Williams had a full trial, full state court appeals and full federal court appeals. His case has been combed over in incredible detail. He's as guilty as anyone who as ever been found guilty. Moreover, the man did not reform. Even the Texas example your pointed out related to the defendant's IQ and not his guilt or innocence.

There are hundreds of thousands of trials in the US every year. For the most part (that is, a significantly high percentage) the trials are fair and impartial. There are always exceptions, however, but they tend to be so small as to be just that, exceptions. To be sure, when it comes to the death penalty there is no margin for error which is a very good reason to abolish the death penalty.

While you may not know that Williams is guilty a jury of his peers felt that he was. Five additional courts felt that he was. Far be it for me to question your grasp of jurisprudence but I think at some point we have to defer to the trier of fact who got to see all of the evidence presented at trial and appeal.

Lastly, please don't use bold when responding. It's poor 'net etiquette.

[tricky_colour]

Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse

I doubt anyone has ever expressed remorse for a murder they didn't
commit, however to do so would be an indication of insanity so they
would probably get off on the grounds of diminshed responsiibility.

[Wiseguy]

Just for the record

Contrary to popular assumption, Stanley Tookie Williams, who was fatally injected Tuesday morning and pronounced dead at 12:35 a.m., was not the founder or even the co-founder of the Crips. The undisputed father of the notorious black street gang was one Raymond Washington, a fearless and mighty 5-foot-8 fireplug who loved to fight and loathed guns. He was killed at age 26 by a shotgun blast — allegedly by someone he knew — on the corner of 64th and San Pedro streets on August 9, 1979.

My own personal opinion is that Williams deserved the fate he met. As they say you reap what you sow and Williams was a murderer.

[Fergie's Son]

I doubt anyone has ever expressed remorse for a murder they didn't
commit, however to do so would be an indication of insanity so they
would probably get off on the grounds of diminshed responsiibility.

I think, however, it would have gone to his changed character and added further weight to his clemency appeal.

I've read one of his appeals and the evidence of his guilt is overwhelming. From ballistics to witnesses it's clear that he slaughtered (executed) all 4 of his victims.

I think the death penalty is morally wrong and incompatible with Western society. Tookie Williams was guility. Did he deserve to die? No, but that's based solely of the first sentence in this paragraph. He was guilty and he did not reform. Life in a small cell without parole should have been his fate.

[Gerrit]

Death penalty equals murder. You don't just plan someone's death as if you let him count down to holidays, and no victim will be coming back. It disgusts me.

See why I hate USA as a political entity (I have nothing against the Americans, but really hate their country as an institution)

[Fergie's Son]

Death penalty equals murder. You don't just plan someone's death as if you let him count down to holidays, and no victim will be coming back. It disgusts me.

See why I hate USA as a political entity (I have nothing against the Americans, but really hate their country as an institution)

That's a little broad isn't it? The US is also home to one of the most open and developed countries in the world. For example, for every Texas there is a Vermont. In the US, you can change things if you want. It's a vibrant and active democracy. I'm having a hard time understanding how you can hate an entire "political entity" when said entity is an open democracy (with the flaws that all democracies have).

[Gerrit]

It's not 100% ratio. Feelings are what they are, I don't know why I am anti-American politically while other countries are far from perfect either. But mainly it's capital punishment, it's the thing I hate most in the world and I have done several anti-capital-punishment campaigns and propaganda's so far (yes, I'm a wee activist ! We all have our ideals and just now and then you need to make them heard). Capital punishment in my opinion is so disgusting and wrong that it outbalances all good things on the US. Rationally i know it's not a right way of thinking, but as long as the US executes I cannot consider the country as civilised, sorry. It's just a feeling, I cannot stand, hear or see any government that thinks it's okay to kill its own citizens.

So basically, what disturbs me in the US and makes me anti-american on political level:

* capital punishment
* their embargo rules are very hypocritical
* George W Bush
* more capital punishment
* the role of the media in the domestic political scene
* more capital punishment
* religious propaganda being oversupported by a state that declares itself as the land of the free (eg Kansas adapting the Bible's theory in biology class next to Darwinism)
* huge violations against human rights
* not recognising the UN Tribunal in the Hague
* the war in Iraq which was totally unnecessary (still no biological or nuclear weapons found !)
* and more capital punishment

I know as well for every of these you can name tens of positive points on the US. But as I said, it's a feeling. The thought of capital punishment makes my blood boil with huge anger. As long as they execute, they're not civilised in my opinion, and I do not want to enter a state killing its own citizens (as by being a tourist there I'd be supporting the economy of a state whose morals are completely bouincing with mine)

[sligoman]

Heard on the radio that snoop dog went to his funeral:eek:

[Gerrit]

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

What a rubbish. The argument "family of the victims" is the biggest emotional-chantage you can do in court, and it's pure rubbish. The killer also has family you know, a normal mom and dad will judge the acts of their child but not stop loving him/her. The killer's life can be saved, that of the victim is gone anyway. The family of the victim cannot get their loved one back, the family of the killer (who hate his act, but not the person he is -- no normal parent ever ditches their kids, no matter what) can but instead have to see how a wrong justice system is allowed to slaughter their locked-up son or daughter. It sickens me.

By the way, the family of victims who hooray when the killer makes his last breath: those people are DISGUSTING and may rot forever in hell next to the person whose murder they morally enjoyed ("rot in hell" is not literarly meant -- it's an expressing of my disgust for them)

[liam88]

The killer also has family you know, a normal mom and dad will judge the acts of their child but not stop loving him/her.
To quote Ian Huntley's mother on her son,
"He should be hung"
I think she stopped loving him when he murdered those two girls.




By the way, the family of victims who hooray when the killer makes his last breath: those people are DISGUSTING and may rot forever in hell next to the person whose murder they morally enjoyed ("rot in hell" is not literarly meant -- it's an expressing of my disgust for them)
Have to diagree with you 100% there. If somone slaughtered or raped a loved one you are entitled to do whatever you like when they die. Fair play to the family victims who do "horray"; their choice-up to them I'd shake their hand any day of the week.