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Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 12:37 PM
Did You Ever Wonder how the pyramids were built or who really killed jfk or did neil armstrong ever really set foot on the moon?
just wanted to get peoples opionion on some of the stuff that is stilla mystery to us in the 21st century

paul_oshea
07/12/2005, 12:41 PM
how they get the figs into the fig rolls?

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 1:00 PM
how they get the figs into the fig rolls?

thats easy aliens do you when your asleep at night

strangeirish
07/12/2005, 1:21 PM
Did You Ever Wonder how the pyramids were built or who really killed jfk or did neil armstrong ever really set foot on the moon?
just wanted to get peoples opionion on some of the stuff that is stilla mystery to us in the 21st century

Jaysus BGR, did you get a visit from the tooth fairy last night or what.:D

finlma
07/12/2005, 1:25 PM
Did You Ever Wonder how the pyramids were built
With big bricks

who really killed jfk
Lee Harvey Oswold obviously

or did neil armstrong ever really set foot on the moon?
Yes he did

Do you not have a teacher you can ask?

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 1:25 PM
Jaysus BGR, did you get a visit from the tooth fairy last night or what.:D
No just been chatting to a bloke in work that come up with some really strange ideas that got me thinking hoped to find some serious posts on here but I guess the average foot poster just insn't ready to open there minds
any way the tooth fairy is a total cnut i used to go out with her :D

Lionel Ritchie
07/12/2005, 1:28 PM
Today in the 21st century there are apparently less than a dozen cranes on earth powerful enough to lift some of the blocks used in the pyramids.

All done with levers, blood, slops and good ol' gravity.

Oh ...and Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't hit a barn from inside it -much less a moving target on a dodgy old rifle. At least two shooters and doubtful if either were in the book repository.

finlma
07/12/2005, 1:35 PM
Too many conspiracy theorists about the place - there's a conspiracy theory forum on boards.ie I believe.

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 1:36 PM
With big bricks

explain this then http://www.grahamhancock.com/horizon/bsc-bauval_pyramids.htm


Lee Harvey Oswold obviously

Prove it


Yes he did
are you sure? http://www.apfn.org/apfn/moon.htm

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 1:40 PM
Too many conspiracy theorists about the place - there's a conspiracy theory forum on boards.ie I believe.

Not a conspiracy theory thread more about stuff that remains a mystery that nobody pretends to be able to explain just wanted to see what we'd come up with when we got our heads together

finlma
07/12/2005, 1:47 PM
They're all old news. There was a recreation done a few years ago and they managed to lift a block the same size that was used in the pyramids using the same tools available. It was tough but do-able.

All evidence points to LHO as the killer and not some fella on the grassy knowl. Again there was a documentry done on this.

As for the moon thing - all those points have been disproved.

If you look hard enough you'll find a conspiracy theory in anything. Some of them maybe true but I don't think the 3 you mentioned are. I stand to be corrected though.

finlma
07/12/2005, 1:51 PM
just wanted to see what we'd come up with when we got our heads together

No offence to the people on Foot.ie but I don't think we'd ever solve some of the worlds greatest mysteries. We can't even decide it we hate George O'Callaghan or not.

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 1:53 PM
They're all old news. There was a recreation done a few years ago and they managed to lift a block the same size that was used in the pyramids using the same tools available. It was tough but do-able.

All evidence points to LHO as the killer and not some fella on the grassy knowl. Again there was a documentry done on this.

As for the moon thing - all those points have been disproved.

If you look hard enough you'll find a conspiracy theory in anything. Some of them maybe true but I don't think the 3 you mentioned are. I stand to be corrected though.


No denying that the to physically build the pyramids is possible but with the accuracy and positioning we still can not do today
the Great pyramid is built in the exact ratio of the planet earth
when you add the sides of the pyramid together you get in inches the exact diameter of earth in miles. the co-ordinates of the point of the great pyramid is exactly the first six digits of the speed of light (the pyramid is a monument to the sun god rah sun/light)
the list goes on and on http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/Reticulum.htg/Reticulum.htm

the 12 th man
07/12/2005, 2:21 PM
1. What do they call French kissing in France?.

2. What do Rocket Scientists compare something to when they have a really difficult problem?.

ThatGuy
07/12/2005, 2:29 PM
Did You Ever Wonder how the pyramids were built or who really killed jfk or did neil armstrong ever really set foot on the moon?
just wanted to get peoples opionion on some of the stuff that is stilla mystery to us in the 21st century
The Pyramids really are a mystery, but Lee Harvey Oswald definitely shot JFK (though there is a hell of a lot more to the story than that in my opinion. RFK's assassination is equally as great a mystery too) and Neil Armstrong DEFINITELY walked on the moon too. The conspiracy theories behind that have no weight whatsoever.

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 2:29 PM
1. What do they call French kissing in France?.

2. What do Rocket Scientists compare something to when they have a really difficult problem?.


1. Le kissing de la Francais?:confused:

2. Neucler Physics or Brain Surgery :D

tetsujin1979
07/12/2005, 2:30 PM
If pineapple pizza has pineapples on it, and cheese pizza has cheese on it, why doesn't vegetarian pizza have vegetarians on it?

ThatGuy
07/12/2005, 2:31 PM
Oh ...and Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't hit a barn from inside it -much less a moving target on a dodgy old rifle. At least two shooters and doubtful if either were in the book repository.
Oswald WAS in the repository and he had an excellent shot.

Oliver Stone's JFK is full of nonsense btw.

hamish
07/12/2005, 2:42 PM
This story happened about a year or two ago near Aughrim Co. Galway (Ireland), and even though it may sound like something out of the X Files or from Alfred Hitchcock Presents... its real!
This guy drives from Ballinasloe to Kilreekill and decides not to take the new A road, as he wants to see the scenery. The inevitable happens and when he reaches the outskirts his car breaks down - he's stranded miles from anywhere. Having no choice he starts walking on the side of the road, hoping to get a lift to the nearest human habitation. It's
dark and raining and pretty soon he's wet and shivering. The night rolls on and no car goes by, the rains are so strong he can barely see a few feet ahead of him.
Suddenly in the distance he sees the headlights of a car coming towards him and it slows and then stops next to him - without thinking the guy opens the car's door and jumps in.
Seated in the back, he leans forward to thank the person who had saved him when he realises there is nobody behind the wheel!!! Even though there's no one in the front seat and no sound of any engine, the car starts moving slowly. The guy looks at the road ahead and sees a curve coming (remember, this is in the hills and there is a steep, steep drop
beyond the curve). Scared almost to death he starts to pray, begging the Lord for his life.
He hasn't come out of shock, when just before he hits the curve, a hand appears through the window and moves the wheel! The car makes the curve safely and continues on the road to the next bend. The guy, now paralysed in terror, watches how the hand appears every time they are before a curve and moves the steering wheel just enough to get the car around each bend. Finally, the guy sees lights ahead. Gathering his courage he wrenches open the door of the silent, slowly moving car, scrambles out and runs as hard and fast as he can towards the lights.
It's a small town. Wet and in shock goes to a roadside bar, which is open, and asks for a drink. They find some Whisky and give him a shot. And he starts telling whoever will listen about the horrible experience he's just been through. A silence envelops everybody when they realise the guy isn't drunk, and Is really frightened - he's crying and shaking.
So they give him more booze and talk about what they should do, whether to call the police or find a priest, or what.
But just then two strangers walked into the bar. And one says to the other, "Look, that's the fecking eejit that got in the car when we were pushing it."

Know the above area like the back of my hand..........a couple miles away from here. Local sceal obviously but have heard it a lot however..........

Just behind my house lies Garbally College, Beeslow. The college has huge grounds around it with woods and has loads of quiet places where much of Beeslow has probably been conceived. There are plenty of terrific spots where privacy is assured.
There is an old lane near the eggball pitches which gradually slopes downwards and in a gradual bend also around what used to be an old artificial lake which was created by the original owner Lord Clancarty. This lane/road is very popular for couples to drive down at night to do the wild thing.
About 18 years ago a buddy of mine drove his one night stand (a German bird) down there. They were just playing in the preliminary rounds, so to speak, when both heard what sounded like a deep, huge, rolling barrel sound coming down the lane in their direction. My friend jumped out of the car, thinking it might be a pervert copping a look or something, but could see nothing.
Like me, he had heard the sceal but neither of us believed it.
Then, he felt what he described as a smelly hot breath or pant on the back of his neck.
The girl (Sabrina I think her name was and she wouldn't have known about this local story anyway) was now in hysterics and they both got the fcuk out of there pronto.
Neither of them had any alcohol or dope in them as he was driving and had to drop her home to Shannonbridge afterwards. I can verify that as I was with them with my girlfriend of the time and he was on Britvic all evening.
People have heard this sound down that area at all times of the day so it's not a midnight type of thing like many so-called ghost stories.
I've been down that area loads of times in the past, jogging or walking the dog etc, and have never heard anything.
My mate is a level headed bloke and not given to tell tall stories either.
Obviously, he got over it and now jokes about the fright he got and no rumpy pumpy either. He never went down there again though on any business.

A ghost??? Probably a rational explanation for it but my mate will never forget that sound and breath on his neck.
As they say, I report, you decide.:confused:

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 2:47 PM
and Neil Armstrong DEFINITELY walked on the moon too. The conspiracy theories behind that have no weight whatsoever.

I disagree as an avid amature photographer I've studied the photo's and found some strange unexplainable abnormalities

finlma
07/12/2005, 2:51 PM
decides not to take the new A road, as he wants to see the scenery. ....... It's dark and raining........
I love looking at scenery through my car window when its dark and wet too.

I smell a rat.

Schumi
07/12/2005, 3:02 PM
when you add the sides of the pyramid together you get in inches the exact diameter of earth in miles.News to me that the Egyptians used 'inches' and 'miles' identical to modern ones. Sounds like this is either made up, wishful thinking or a co-incidence.


the co-ordinates of the point of the great pyramid is exactly the first six digits of the speed of lightThe co-ordinates measured from where and in what units? Ditto for the speed of light.

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 3:17 PM
News to me that the Egyptians used 'inches' and 'miles' identical to modern ones. Sounds like this is either made up, wishful thinking or a co-incidence.

The co-ordinates measured from where and in what units? Ditto for the speed of light.
The co-ord's given in degrees minutes and seconds on google earth
as compared to the closest estimation of the speed of light in kilometers per second

I never said the egyptians used inches and miles if you measure the pyramids today using today's units of measurements
these are the co-incediances that come up
check in a book called the Nephilim and the pyramid of the apocalypse for verification

http://www.nephilimapocalypse.com/_theBook/timeWas.asp


The base of the Great Pyramid covers about thirteen acres. It consists of approximately 2.3 million blocks of stone weighing around 2.5 tons each, some weighing up to 50 tons. Some huge granite blocks, weighing 100 tons, are situated within the pyramid structure at a height of 46 meters. The base of the pyramid is a square with right angles accurate to within one-twentieth of a degree. The sides are equilateral triangles and face exactly to the true north, south, east and west of the earth.

Taking the Hebrew cubit to be 25.025 inches, the length of each side of the base is 365.2422 cubits, the exact number of days in the solar year (including the extra day for every 4 years).

The slope of the sides of the pyramid is of such an angle that they meet at the apex at the predetermined height of 232.52 cubits. If twice the length of a side at the base, be divided by the height of the pyramid we arrive at the figures 3.14159, which when multiplied by the diameter of a circle, gives its circumference.

The perimeter of the base of the pyramid (365.242 x 4 = 14609.68) is exactly equal to the circumference of a circle whose diameter is twice the height of the pyramid (232.52 x 2 x 3.1416 = 14609.68). So here we have in these figures the solution to the problem of how to square a circle (See figure 1).

The angle of slope of the sides is 10 to 9. That is, for every 10 feet you ascend, you rise in altitude 9 feet. And if you multiply the altitude of the pyramid by 10 raised to the power of 9, you have 91,840,000, which in miles, is the exact distance of the sun from the earth!

The year of the stars is called the 'Sidereal' and the year of the seasons is called the 'Equinoctial'. They differ by about 50 seconds per year. In other words, the stars in their rising and setting are retarded by about 50 seconds each year. In order for the 'Sidereal' and the 'Equinoctial' years to come around and coincide again would take 25,827 years, which is called a 'cycle'. If we add together the diagonals of the pyramids base in inches, we arrive at 25,827, or as many inches as the cycle has years.

The Great Pyramid stands at the exact centre of the world. It is midway between the west coast of Mexico and the east coast of China. Between the north cape of Norway and the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa. It stands at the intersection of the 30th parallel, both latitude and longitude. The Great Pyramid was the highest buildings in the world for thousands of years until modern man began building skyscrapers such as the World Trade Center. If it were compared to a skyscraper, the Great Pyramid would be 42 storeys high. It contains enough stone to build a six foot high wall from New York to Los Angeles.

Researchers Alan and Sally Lansberg provide the following statistics regarding this incredible ediface:

"Somehow the builders knew that the world was round but flattened at the poles, which caused a degree of latitude to lengthen at the top and bottom of the planet; that it rotated in one day on an axis tilted 23.5* to the ecliptic, causing night and day, and that this tilt caused the seasons; that earth circled the sun once in a year of 365 and a fraction days.

The designers also must have known that earth's celestial north pole described a slow circle around the pole of the ecliptic, making the constellations appear to 'slip backward' (the precession of the equinoxes), and bring a new constellation of the Zodiac behind the sun at the equinox approximately every twenty two hundred years in a grand circle of about twenty-six thousand years. These facts, too, were part of the internal measurements of the pyramid".

We are asked to believe that primitive man, dressed in animal skins and roaming wild, constructed the Great Pyramid with all that it entails, yet these same builders had not yet invented the simple wheel.

From an astronomical point of view, we have learned some extraordinary facts. There are four long narrow passage ways or shafts built into the Great Pyramid. Two on the north face and two on the south. The two on the north point to two distinct stars. One at Beta Ursa Minor and one at Alpha Draconis in the constellation of Draco.

The 'star shafts' on the south face point at Sirius and Zeta Orionis. In ancient Egyptian tradition, Sirius is associated with the goddess Isis. And Zita Orionis, which is the brightest star of three in Orions belt, is identified with Osiris, the high god of resurrection and rebirth in the remote epoch referred to as 'Zep Tepi' or 'First Time'. (See figure 2)

Similarly, ancient monuments in Mexico and at Ankor in Cambodia have celestial connections with Orion, Draco, Leo and Aquarius. Why these astronomical associations?

Lionel Ritchie
07/12/2005, 3:20 PM
Oswald WAS in the repository and he had an excellent shot.

Oliver Stone's JFK is full of nonsense btw.

Excellent enought to squeeze off three shots -any of which would've placed him among the medals at the olympics -at a moving target, inside 7 seconds when it takes 4 to recoil and lock the rifle? It's barely possible and utterly unlikely.

hamish
07/12/2005, 3:32 PM
I love looking at scenery through my car window when its dark and wet too.

I smell a rat.

The first story was taken from the internet but I have heard that story a lot.

Swear to God, finmla:)

Google, Ballinasloe ghosts - look for Lawrencetown or Kiltormer school kids - it's around there somewhere.;)

finlma
07/12/2005, 3:37 PM
Google, Ballinasloe ghosts - look for Lawrencetown or Kiltormer school kids - it's around there somewhere.;)

I know the area - relations used live in Bsloe and I'll be avoiding it from now on. I wouldn't be suprised if it was you Hamish trying to keep people away. ;)

monkey magic
07/12/2005, 3:45 PM
Did You Ever Wonder

eh, no.

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 3:49 PM
eh, no.


jebus aren't you very narrow minded

hamish
07/12/2005, 3:50 PM
I know the area - relations used live in Bsloe and I'll be avoiding it from now on. I wouldn't be suprised if it was you Hamish trying to keep people away.

That Green Tribe (Queen Juliana) is detroying me y'know. Now she's you turned against poor old Hamish.

Nah, I'm old, half blind and housebound so I'm no danger anymore. (Violins:D )

It helps having a mental age of 12 though, really does.:D

Betcha I know your relations and/or have coached someone belonged to you in some footie team.

Might have even dated one of your aunties.:p Don't fret now - was always a gentleman.

Drumcondra Red
07/12/2005, 3:52 PM
I love looking at scenery through my car window when its dark and wet too.

I love a good ride in a secluded area!!! lol :D

hamish
07/12/2005, 3:58 PM
I love a good ride in a secluded area!!! lol

Heh heh........yeah the tops of the trees can be inspiring when you're lookin' up at 'em. LMAO........important to keep the feet off the dashboard to avoid blocking the view.

finlma should really know better than to start jiving with us Roy.:D :D

ThatGuy
07/12/2005, 4:03 PM
Excellent enought to squeeze off three shots -any of which would've placed him among the medals at the olympics -at a moving target, inside 7 seconds when it takes 4 to recoil and lock the rifle? It's barely possible and utterly unlikely.
Despite what is claimed in the movie JFK firing the bullets is not as restricted as was made out, firing three shots in that time is actually not impossible, it is an easy task (which is demonstrated regularly by people explaining this) and would pose absolutely no difficulty to a marksman of Oswald's credentials, which were impressive.

In the repository now there are regular demonstrations of how there is no mystery as to how the shots were carried out.

Also, the "Magic Bullet" story is absolute nonsense too.

I believe that there is a conspiracy of some sorts behind the killing of JFK. Oswald took the shots though, there can be no doubt about that. Of greater interest would be the role of Jack Ruby and the interference with the body before and after the autposy.

ThatGuy
07/12/2005, 4:06 PM
I disagree as an avid amature photographer I've studied the photo's and found some strange unexplainable abnormalities
Like the lack of stars, irregular shadows, hair on the lens etc? All of the abnormalities have been explained.

Also, some of the experiments done by Armstrong on the moon are still on going and can be verified by anyone who wants to purchase the electrical equipment to trace the source.

the 12 th man
07/12/2005, 4:09 PM
Despite what is claimed in the movie JFK firing the bullets is not as restricted as was made out, firing three shots in that time is actually not impossible, it is an easy task (which is demonstrated regularly by people explaining this) and would pose absolutely no difficulty to a marksman of Oswald's credentials, which were impressive.

In the repository now there are regular demonstrations of how there is no mystery as to how the shots were carried out.

Also, the "Magic Bullet" story is absolute nonsense too.

I believe that there is a conspiracy of some sorts behind the killing of JFK. Oswald took the shots though, there can be no doubt about that. Of greater interest would be the role of Jack Ruby and the interference with the body before and after the autposy.


If this were an American site we'd have thousands of people posting that their Father/Mother etc were standing on "the grassy knoll":cool:

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 4:11 PM
Like the lack of stars, irregular shadows, hair on the lens etc? All of the abnormalities have been explained.

Also, some of the experiments done by Armstrong on the moon are still on going and can be verified by anyone who wants to purchase the electrical equipment to trace the source.


Explain the shot of Armstrong on the moon with the LEM and aldrin reflected in his visor Aldrin is facing away from armstrong and the doorway to the LEM is clearly visible and no one is standing in the doorway
History records that collins stayed on board so who took the shot ?

Schumi
07/12/2005, 4:12 PM
If this were an American site we'd have thousands of people posting that their Father/Mother etc were standing on "the grassy knoll":cool:
Lucky all ours were still in the GPO so. :D

hamish
07/12/2005, 4:19 PM
Lucky all ours were still in the GPO so. :D

or there when Hughton/O'Leary (take your pick) - scored.:D

hamish
07/12/2005, 4:20 PM
Explain the shot of Armstrong on the moon with the LEM and aldrin reflected in his visor Aldrin is facing away from armstrong and the doorway to the LEM is clearly visible and no one is standing in the doorway
History records that collins stayed on board so who took the shot ?

Wasn't there a programme about that recently on one of those Discovery channels thingies that explained (or tried to) those anomalies??

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 4:30 PM
Wasn't there a programme about that recently on one of those Discovery channels thingies that explained (or tried to) those anomalies??
Yep and that was one of the photo's that remained a mystery
And Never A Straight Answer refused to comment on it
makes you wonder though doesn't it
kennedy's speach about going to the moon by the end of the sixties
the cold war etc. when u look at the way thaey invented excuses to blow the fcuk out of iraq I'd say nothing is beneeth them

ThatGuy
07/12/2005, 4:30 PM
Wasn't there a programme about that recently on one of those Discovery channels thingies that explained (or tried to) those anomalies??

There was. I still had my doubts before I saw that but it had the answers to all the conspiracy theories.

strangeirish
07/12/2005, 4:32 PM
Explain the shot of Armstrong on the moon with the LEM and aldrin reflected in his visor Aldrin is facing away from armstrong and the doorway to the LEM is clearly visible and no one is standing in the doorway
History records that collins stayed on board so who took the shot ?

Oswald of course!:D

Block G Raptor
07/12/2005, 4:35 PM
Oswald of course!:D
Classic. I had to ask Didn't I :D :D

hamish
07/12/2005, 5:14 PM
Oswald of course!:

BGR.........when The Strange One strikes..........he strikes.........I have suffered too............I feel your pain. LMAO:D :D

ken foree
07/12/2005, 6:14 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission

the most interesting thing about kennedy is that the u.s. congress in the late 70s found that a conspiracy was likely and that oswald fired 3 of 4 shots, and that a accessory fired a 4th shot and missed. taking into account marina oswald's verified connection to the KGB (her uncle was a v. high ranking operative) and anti-castro elements angry at JFK for the bungled bay of pigs invasion, it's easy to see where several interests might have converged. in oswald they found their foil.

people interested in pyramid building should check out coral castle in florida u.s.a., a remarkable contruct of huge stones cut and assembled by one man using primitive tools.

Risteard
07/12/2005, 11:38 PM
Now this is a very good thread.
Maybe the camera just wasn't one that Aldrin had to push a button down on for the flash or whatever. I wouldn't believe those ones at all. Reckon Oswald did fire all the shots but would definately buy into some of the conspiracies there.
+ It all seemed ridiculously easy for Jack Ruby.
The most likeliest of all the famous ones though imo is Diana.

Student Mullet
08/12/2005, 3:13 AM
I disagree as an avid amature photographer I've studied the photo's and found some strange unexplainable abnormalitiesThe clincher for me here is that they left stuff behind them which you can still look at through a telescope.

As for the pyramids, there are hundreds of different measurements you can take of them and hundreds of units those measurements can be taken in. Compare all of these to a few hundred physical constants and chances are you'll get a few that match.

Student Mullet
08/12/2005, 3:48 AM
I had a look at that website and two of the unexplained photographs are easy enough to explain.

In this one: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Moonlanding1.htm

The claim is that for a far away light source (i.e. the sun) the two shadows of two men of similar height should be the same length but their not. The conclusion is that the light source is much closer i.e. in a studio.

If you look at the shadow on the left you'll notice that it's very stumpy. The shadow has unusually long legs and a stumpy body. This could not be caused by a studio light. It could however be caused by the slope of the ground being uneven. The land is sloping upwards starting at about the waist of the left hand shadow. This is why his upper body is shortened while none of the other shadow is. This sloping can further be seen from the change is shading of the land, the sloping section is brighter as it is facing more towards the sun.

In this picture there is a similar affect. http://www.apfn.org/apfn/moonlanding7.htm

The claim is that for a far away light source all shadows should be paralell but they're not in the reflection in the helmet. Again this points to a near source of light. Again it is explained by a curve, this time on the rounded helmet.

Block G Raptor
08/12/2005, 7:48 AM
Now this is a very good thread.
Maybe the camera just wasn't one that Aldrin had to push a button down on for the flash or whatever. I wouldn't believe those ones at all. Reckon Oswald did fire all the shots but would definately buy into some of the conspiracies there.
+ It all seemed ridiculously easy for Jack Ruby.
The most likeliest of all the famous ones though imo is Diana.


Apparently the only camera's on the moon were mounted on the brest plates of the astronaughts spacesuits and the trigger mechanism was in their gloves
therefore Aldrin would have to have been facing Armstrong to have taken the photo

Hulsey
08/12/2005, 1:12 PM
Crocidiles can't walk backwards, but Alligators can:D .

pineapple stu
08/12/2005, 1:22 PM
The co-ord's given in degrees minutes and seconds on google earth as compared to the closest estimation of the speed of light in kilometers per second
I'm confused. Why would the Egyptians design a pyramid whose co-ordinates matched a measurement in a measure which was only invented a couple of hundred years ago?