Statutory Rape

[joeSoap]

I was listening to the Last Word show on Today FM yesterday and they were discussing a rather sad case where a 19 year old boy from Galway was sentenced to 11 months for the statutory rape of his girlfriend, then 15. Apparently both sets of parents approved of the relationship, and a child has since been born as a result of it. The couple are still together, and the boy is a 'full time parent' as the girl is sitting her leaving cert and is apparently quite academic.The case is being reviewed today in the Circuit Court, where the boy appealed the severity of his sentence.

There was a rather outraged counsellor from the Rape Crisis Centre on, and there was also someone else proclaiming that underage sex is rampant in Ireland these days. I can see both sides of the argument, as the sex was totally consentual, they both seem to be dedicated to both the child and the relationship, and seem to want a future together. I also acknowledge the law in this matter, which states the age of consent for girls in Ireland to be 17.

Prison is certainly not the answer though in my book. Also perhaps the title 'statutory rape' could be changed as it makes it sound like a heinous crime, which it wasn't. Surely there is another solution rather than potentially destroying an otherwise innocent boy for the rest of his life by locking him up with real criminals??:confused: :(

[Gareth]

You see law needs to cover the bases for when the legit cases need prosecuting. I don't know but if it is a case of what you said, then I assume the Judge is the person who passes sentence and if so what is the minimum require sentence for Stat-R? I would be surprised if he could of suspended the sentence under the laws he was bound to?

To change the law, what do you say? If someone consents and has parents permission, then sex is allowed at any age? Or above 15 or what? It is too difficult ot mould the law around a very unusually and sad case. This is the exception to the general rule I suspect?

[joeSoap]

To change the law, what do you say? If someone consents and has parents permission, then sex is allowed at any age? Or above 15 or what? It is too difficult ot mould the law around a very unusually and sad case. This is the exception to the general rule I suspect?I don't think the law should be changed, but am in a quandry about this case because of its circumstances. Apparently the district court judge was appalled and sentenced him to 11 months, but also (and probably correctly) wanted to know that if the sex was consentual, then why wasn't the girl up in court on charges also as the law prohibits sex for any girl under 17?

[Gareth]

The reason there is a law is so underage people have no power to consent. So even if she let the person have sex with her, its not her call to make as such and he will be prosecuted? You can't prosecute a minor for leatting someone have sex with them. Under what law?

[joeSoap]

The reason there is a law is so underage people have no power to consent. So even if she let the person have sex with her, its not her call to make as such and he will be prosecuted? You can't prosecute a minor for leatting someone have sex with them. Under what law?
Those were the Judges opinions as relayed on the radio yesterday, not mine.

[Gareth]

Awh ok sorry about that so.

[Poor Student]

I was listening to the Last Word show on Today FM yesterday and they were discussing a rather sad case where a 19 year old boy from Galway was sentenced to 11 months for the statutory rape of his girlfriend, then 15. Apparently both sets of parents approved of the relationship, and a child has since been born as a result of it. The couple are still together, and the boy is a 'full time parent' as the girl is sitting her leaving cert and is apparently quite academic.The case is being reviewed today in the Circuit Court, where the boy appealed the severity of his sentence.


If that is completely true then in an abstract sense outside of any specific legal framework the lad has done nothing wrong. joeSoap, you suggest a solution outside of prison should be found, but do you think this lad deserves any punishment in the mildest? I'm no legal expert and I understand the dangers of setting precedents by allowing this one to go, yet at the same time if they loved each other, the girl was mature and they are together years later and the parents don't mind then surely you cannot say he did anything wrong? Btw, is 17 the age of consent? Thought it was 16.

[sadloserkid]

17 is the age of consent. I believe that it was raised from 16 at the same time that the age of homosexual consent was dropped from 18 to 17. Quite an Irish approach to a problem I feel.

It is 16 in Northern Ireland.

Also... while I can understand the unfairness of the case highlighted in one sense I have a 15 year old sister and I'd be a bit sceptical of any 19 year old hanging around. That four year gap wouldn't be an issue two years down the line though again obviously I should concede that different people mature at different rates.

[Poor Student]

Also... while I can understand the unfairness of the case highlighted in one sense I have a 15 year old sister and I'd be a bit sceptical of any 19 year old hanging around. That four year gap wouldn't be an issue two years down the line though again obviously I should concede that different people mature at different rates.

I had the quickest of looks there around at the legislation and yeah, mistake on the part of the male or consent on behalf of the female is not accepted as excuse. Maximum penalty is 5 years. So perhaps one could say he got off lightly.

Bizarrely I only see mention of a girl under 17. Is this our backward constitution at work again? Any legal parameters for heterosexual sex with young males? (This is a serious question about the makeup of our constitution and legal framework, no cheap jokes please).

[A face]

Will someone please think of the children !?! :eek:

[anto eile]

Bizarrely I only see mention of a girl under 17. Is this our backward constitution at work again? Any legal parameters for heterosexual sex with young males? (This is a serious question about the makeup of our constitution and legal framework, no cheap jokes please).

surely should be challenged as its discriminatory against males?
plenty of underage girls end up in nightclubs,and fool bouncers/barstaff and other lads into believing theyre overage.a mate of mine is 20.he was with a 16 year old in a club a while back (he didnt go home and have sex with her or anything) but still,got her number in the club.she told him she was 20.
had he gone home with her he could have gone to jail.hows he to know she wasnt 20? poxy joke of a law.

in the case discussed on the last word, i think the probabtion act should have been used."ask" your man to donate to a charity.but leave him without a conviction.
id be wary of my 15 year old sister (if she was 15) going out with a 19 year old fella too though. but maturity should be taken into account.

[anto eile]

quick note- no public good was served by giving your man 11 months in jail. surely that should be a huge factor in deciding the sentence

[pineapple stu]

a mate of mine is 20.he was with a 16 year old in a club a while back (he didnt go home and have sex with her or anything) but still,got her number in the club.she told him she was 20.
had he gone home with her he could have gone to jail.hows he to know she wasnt 20? poxy joke of a law.
I assume there's a provision for being actually aware (or otherwise) of her age. You could quite possibly argue that, by virtue of the fact that she was in a nightclub (which I'm going to assume served drink and was over 18s), you could assume she was over 18. Otherwise, you could possibly sue the nightclub for failing to carry out its duties with regards age requirements.
Surely the law exists for the protection of the girl though? It surely can't be biologically safe for a 15-year-old to have sex and get pregnant? It's all very easy to dismiss laws you don't agree with as stupid, but in the end of the day, they by and large exist for your own safety and should be heeded.
Incidentally, I wouldn't put too much stock in the whole "Oh they're a loving couple and the girl is very academic" stuff. It could well be true, but even the biggest scumbag who quite clearly had it coming will invariably be described as someone who loved life, worked hard, etc. No-one's going to call themselves or someone they know a scumbag in the media. Controversial, maybe, but true.

[holidaysong]

...at the same time that the age of homosexual consent was dropped from 18 to 17.

You sure it was dropped to 17? When did that happen?

[pineapple stu]

Why are you so interested?! ;)

[Student Mullet]

If two teenagers, both under seventeen, are having sex is it legal? If so do they need to abstain when one turns seventeen untill the other one does as well so as to avoid statutary rape?

That said, four years is a bit of an age gap.

[anto1208]

Why are you so interested?! ;)

he may have just turned 17 and is now heading out for some bum fun .

the note about meeting a girl in a club who is under age recently i met my mates littles sisters mate in a club in limerick she is 14 !! . and she was with some guy .

can you get done for it yes just ask graham rix ex chelsea coach , he met a 15 year old girl in a glub took her home got locked up for it . judge said it was up to him to find out .
harsh like who asks a girl for id before taking her to bed ?

[Dodge]

17 is the age of consent. I believe that it was raised from 16 at the same time that the age of homosexual consent was dropped from 18 to 17. Quite an Irish approach to a problem I feel.

It was always seventeen.

Another anomilty is the age of consent for Marraige is 16. In which case sex is lawful.

[joeSoap]

As a judge ponders whether to send a 19-year-old boy to prison for having underage sex, calls to change the law have grown louder, writes Dearbhail McDonald

RAYMOND Groarke is no stranger to tales of illicit sex, but when the Galway judge was asked last week to decide the fate of a 19-year-old boy facing a year in prison for having sex with his 15-year-old girlfriend, he retreated to his chambers to reflect.
Groarke, an experienced circuit court judge who has presided over rape and child sex-abuse cases, appeared to be at a loss as to how to deal with the teenage lovers, now engaged and living together with their 10-month-old son.

Paul McGettigan, the lawyer representing the 19-year-old in an appeal against a year-long sentence imposed by the district court for unlawful carnal knowledge of an underage girl, said it was “most unusual”.

The couple had been dating for about five months when the girl, a straight-A Junior Cert student, invited her boyfriend to help her baby-sit. She brought the accused to a bedroom where she invited him to have sex. Lying about her age, she told him she was 16. It’s the average age at which Irish teens begin having sex, but it is one year too early according to Ireland’s age of consent laws.

In defiance of the law, their affair thrived. But last May when the girl discovered she was pregnant, her mother made a complaint of statutory rape to the gardai. The girl was forced to make a statement.

The accusation — later retracted by the girl’s mother — led to the 19-year-old being convicted of statutory rape at Tuam district court. But last week when the now-proud grandmother implored Groarke not to send her prospective son-in-law to jail, she received short shrift.

“Even though he raped your daughter, in law?” asked the judge, who said the girl was a “conspirator”, a willing party in the illegal sexual acts.

“Why is she referred to as the injured party?” wondered Groarke, as he interrogated Michael O’Driscoll, a senior garda who was giving evidence. “Why had the gardai not sought advice from the director of public prosecutions to prosecute the girl for conspiracy? She was part of a conspiracy to commit an indictable crime, was she not?” McGettigan pleaded for leniency. The couple were still together, he said, it wasn’t a one-night stand. Underage sex is “rampant in any city or town” throughout Ireland, the boy’s lawyer said, and Irish society no longer wondered at it.

Perhaps, the lawyer suggested, the law should be changed to deal with the reality of consensual sex among Irish teenagers. “Perhaps,” retorted Groarke, “it is time courts started jailing young men who behave in this fashion and maybe young ladies too.”

BUT before Irish teenagers worry about being jailed for having sex with their peers, they can relax in the knowledge that peer-on-peer prosecutions are practically unheard of in Ireland. The case before Groarke is exceptional.

Ireland has the second-highest teenage-pregnancy rate in Europe; as many as 30% of Irish teenagers are sexually active and last year 49 teenagers under the age of 16 travelled to Britain for abortions.

“The law has no impact, it is there but it is being ignored,” said Carmel Wynne, author of Sex and Young People: The knowledge to guide the teenager in your life.

“There are no prosecutions of teenagers who have sex with each other. Children just say ‘so what?’ Gardai turn a blind eye to underage sex and will only interfere if a parent complains.”

Age of consent (AOC) laws and penal sanctions exist nonetheless. It is illegal to have sex with a girl under the age of 17, but for boys the age of consent is 15. The gender disparity leads to curious anomalies: had the accused in last week’s case been 15 and his girlfriend 19, no crime would have been committed.

AOC laws are designed to protect young people from paedophile predators and sexual exploitation from adults, but they are openly flouted and have led to calls for the age of consent to be reduced.

“We have to accept that teenagers are having sex with each other; we need to presume, as parents, that 13-year-olds are having sex,” said Bernie Purcell, a child psychotherapist.

“Statutory rape exists to protect young people from abuse by older people and that is crucial, but underage sex between peers is different. It doesn’t present the same conflicting tensions as when an adult abuses a minor.

“Parents go mad about this, but instead of being in denial, we should be confronting teenage sexuality and looking at the age of consent. Underage sex has to be treated differently in law once they are in the same age group.”

Sexually advanced teens cause problems for doctors, lawyers and parents. Earlier this year the Supreme Court ruled that a man charged with sexual assault of a 13-year old girl could claim at his trial that he was mistaken as to the age of the girl. The man claims he had consensual activity with her.

[joeSoap]

His sentence was suspended yesterday, and the lad was placed on a good behaviour bond for 12 months.

[joeSoap]

The reason there is a law is so underage people have no power to consent. So even if she let the person have sex with her, its not her call to make as such and he will be prosecuted? You can't prosecute a minor for leatting someone have sex with them. Under what law?


“Why is she referred to as the injured party?” wondered Groarke, as he interrogated Michael O’Driscoll, a senior garda who was giving evidence. “Why had the gardai not sought advice from the director of public prosecutions to prosecute the girl for conspiracy? She was part of a conspiracy to commit an indictable crime, was she not?” McGettigan pleaded for leniency. The couple were still together, he said, it wasn’t a one-night stand. Underage sex is “rampant in any city or town” throughout Ireland, the boy’s lawyer said, and Irish society no longer wondered at it.

This judge was pretty p1ssed at having to try this case...

[pineapple stu]

If two teenagers, both under seventeen, are having sex is it legal? If so do they need to abstain when one turns seventeen untill the other one does as well so as to avoid statutary rape?
My limited understanding of the law (i.e. the occasional reading of tabloid problem pages:) ) gives the answers as no and yes.

[holidaysong]

Why are you so interested?! ;)

Not all posters on foot.ie are heterosexual you know. :)

[Block G Raptor]

His sentence was suspended yesterday, and the lad was placed on a good behaviour bond for 12 months.


Good to hear it
Nobody mentioned that the law was prepared to rob a 10 month old child of it's Father for the best part of a year that IMO is child abuse in itself
if the little slappers want to go at it leave them to it

ffs i lost my virginity at 11 to a 15 year old youngwan

[Gareth]

ffs i lost my virginity at 11 to a 15 year old youngwan

11 eh, at 11 I probably couldn't even spell virginity. :eek: :D

[sadloserkid]

ffs i lost my virginity at 11 to a 15 year old youngwan

And its Shamrock Rovers fans who are cursed with the reputation of being completely and utterly primitive... makes you think doesn't it. :)

[hamish]

if the little slappers want to go at it leave them to it

ffs i lost my virginity at 11 to a 15 year old youngwan

Bit of an own goal there...eh.....BGR???

:p :D :D

[Green Tribe]

Bit of an own goal there...eh.....BGR???

:p :D

aye, the wee slapper! :D

[superfrank]

It's ridiculous. If it's consensual there's no probleem. The lad knows what he's doing and the girl know's what she's doing, where's the problem?

If having underage sex is rape then alot of people my age are rapists, and that's just not true. Ridiculous law. Can people not have sex anymore without being afraid of going to prison, FFS!

[Macy]

Don't think people have pointed out the way this is being reported.... He's 19 now, not when they actually had the sex. Blatant attempt by the media to sensationalise the case imo.

[Block G Raptor]

Bit of an own goal there...eh.....BGR???

:p :D :D

Ive started digging so i'll just keep going
it was my confirmation Night

[joeSoap]

Ive started digging so i'll just keep going
it was my confirmation Night
Total waste of your confirmation money was it??

[Block G Raptor]

Bit of an own goal there...eh.....BGR???


Ive started so I'll keep digging
It was my Confirmation day to boot


aye, the wee slapper! :D
Yeah well I spent 9 years being faithfull to the same girl(not the above mentioned one mind you) so I'm Entitled to do a bit of slappering around
believe me I've Earned it (see below for details)

http://www.foot.ie/showpost.php?p=397362&postcount=36

[Block G Raptor]

And its Shamrock Rovers fans who are cursed with the reputation of being completely and utterly primitive... makes you think doesn't it. :)
If it was put on a plate would you have refused it? (and yes she was a rovers fan how did you know)
if you would refuse then your name suits you

[sadloserkid]

If it was put on a plate would you have refused it? (and yes she was a rovers fan how did you know)
if you would refuse then your name suits you

At 11? I wouldn't have known what to do to be totally honest! (of course some bitter ladies would probably claim I still don't know what I'm doing but what do they know huh? :D)

[pineapple stu]

It's ridiculous. If it's consensual there's no probleem. The lad knows what he's doing and the girl know's what she's doing, where's the problem?
Don't agree. People are idiots. Especially younger people. This person is now a mother at 15, and she's completely untrained for it (I'm assuming, though I challenge anyone to show me a capable 15-year-old parent). The law is there to protect people from themselves, effectively. Just because everyone's doing something (and the chances are they're not - they're just saying they are; it's like those surveys in college where blokes say they've slept with an average of 15 people and girls say they've slept with an average of five people) doesn't make it right or responsible.


Don't think people have pointed out the way this is being reported.... He's 19 now, not when they actually had the sex. Blatant attempt by the media to sensationalise the case imo.
Not sure what your point is? I think most people are pointing out the four-year age gap more than the 19-year-old-ness? (Though I could be wrong and have fallen for the same trap you've just pointed out!)

[Schumi]

Not sure what you're point is? I think most people are pointing out the four-year age gap more than the 19-year-old-ness? (Though I could be wrong and have fallen for the same trap you've just pointed out!)
If you read the original post, it says that she was 15 at the time while he's 19 now.

It's also "your" BTW. :p :eek:

[pineapple stu]

Nooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Idiots are brainwashing me!!

Fair enough on the other one. So I did fall into the trap Macy was pointing out! :)

[Green Tribe]

If you read the original post, it says that she was 15 at the time while he's 19 now.

It's also "your" BTW. :p :eek:

class :D

[Macy]

Fair enough on the other one. So I did fall into the trap Macy was pointing out! :)
Just another victim of the murdoch controlled press... :D

This happened around about 18 months ago, so it could've been 15 and 17 which doesn't sound as bad as 15 and 19....

[Aberdonian Stu]

Just a couple of points on what's been discussed.

1. The age of heterosexual consent wasn't adjusted with legislation for homosexual consent. It was 17 long before homosexual relations were legal in this state.

2. The two underage thing is a tricky one. Technically statutory rape has been committed but both are underage. I have mates who are lawyers so I'll ask them for clarification.

[superfrank]

Don't agree. People are idiots. Especially younger people. This person is now a mother at 15, and she's completely untrained for it (I'm assuming, though I challenge anyone to show me a capable 15-year-old parent). The law is there to protect people from themselves, effectively. Just because everyone's doing something (and the chances are they're not - they're just saying they are; it's like those surveys in college where blokes say they've slept with an average of 15 people and girls say they've slept with an average of five people) doesn't make it right or responsible.
That's her own fault. All 14/15 year olds know what can happen if they have sex so she knew what risk she was taking even if they used a johnnie. The argument that younger people are stupid is true, myself is one example, however every teenager knows what can happen from sex, it's taught in school. Noone can be so naive to think it couldn't happen.

It doesn't make them responsible but the should have some cop on. It's her own fault that she got pregnant and it shouldn't be considered rape. This case is actually disgusting me. It means people my age can't have sex for fear of going to jail. Where's the logic in that??

[bigmac]

AFIK, the legal definition of rape in Irish Law involves penetration - otherwise it's unlawful carnal knowledge. Therefore there is no provision for the statutary rape of males by females. Therefore, a 17 year-old girl and a 16 year old boy is not statutary rape, (i don't know if it's legal or not), but a 17 year-old boy and 16 year-old girl is.
Interestingly enough, here in Norway a woman's appeal against a rape conviction was quashed recently. Story is here (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1152684.ece). Apparently she got 8 months in prison for it.

[Block G Raptor]

What kind of bloke gets psychologically disturbed because a scandinavian Bird gives him a BJ .......bizzare

[superfrank]

What kind of bloke gets psychologically disturbed because a scandinavian Bird gives him a BJ .......bizzare
My sentiments exactly. I'd be pretty happy to wake up and find some blonde Norwegian playing the pink oboe, as they say.

[bigmac]

My sentiments exactly. I'd be pretty happy to wake up and find some blonde Norwegian playing the pink oboe, as they say.

Apparently the boyfriend was in the flat as well and she was looking for a bit of an aul menage a trois. Anyway, not all Norwegians are particularly good looking :(

although some of the politicians are quite nice (http://pub.tv2.no/dyn-nettavisen/innenriks/?archiveSection=2&archiveItem=201084). Better than Mary Harney anyday!

[hamish]

My sentiments exactly. I'd be pretty happy to wake up and find some blonde Norwegian playing the pink oboe, as they say.


:D :D :D

I thought I'd heard 'em all.

[hamish]

Ive started digging so i'll just keep going
it was my confirmation Night

:eek:

RFLMAO:D
BGR..you're a legend........a true legend.

Jaysus and all I got was ten shillings, a big bottle of Cidona, a new suit and shiny shoes.:mad:

[Lionel Ritchie]

So are we to understand that there's a two year age gap rather than a 4 year age gap then?

When I was 16 I'd a 14 year old girlfriend for a while ...22 months younger than me. Never got into her knickers but that wasn't for want of trying mind. I think girls that age just like "older" fellahs ..or what's "older" in their mind at least? I'd no real awareness of her being 14 and it wasn't an issue for her folks.

I have to say though -if I'd a 15 year old daughter and she arrived home with a 19 year old boy ...frankly I'd assume malevolence, deviance and sexual retardation on his part and would quite possibly arrange for him to have a very nasty accident.

It's too big a gap at that age. Way too big in terms of emotional, social and sexual development. Yeah ...I'd have him accidently reversed over repeatedly.

[Block G Raptor]

So are we to understand that there's a two year age gap rather than a 4 year age gap then?

When I was 16 I'd a 14 year old girlfriend for a while ...22 months younger than me. Never got into her knickers but that wasn't for want of trying mind. I think girls that age just like "older" fellahs ..or what's "older" in their mind at least? I'd no real awareness of her being 14 and it wasn't an issue for her folks.

I have to say though -if I'd a 15 year old daughter and she arrived home with a 19 year old boy ...frankly I'd assume malevolence, deviance and sexual retardation on his part and would quite possibly arrange for him to have a very nasty accident.

It's too big a gap at that age. Way too big in terms of emotional, social and sexual development. Yeah ...I'd have him accidently reversed over repeatedly.

Just listening to the radio on the way to work this morning there was a prof. from one of the countries Biggest std clinics on he said the average age of his patients are 16 and he regularly treats girls of thirteen and up
man thats down right worrying