A question, any help appreciated

[liam88]

I admit this is politicial but it is in no way intended to be contreversial. I'm having a university interview for politcs and history (combined course) in a couple of weeks and i'm stuck on a point of politics in the Republic of Ireland that might come up.
(I admit my knowledge of Politics in the Republic is limited so i'm really greatful for any help!)

So historical alligances originating in the civil war still exist. ~During my visit to Glasnevian Cementry over the summer I saw how De Velera's grave is consistantly vandalised whilse Collin's in constantly covered in flowers, cards etc. Throughout Ireland people generally seem a lot more sympathetic to Collins than Dev. So if Collin's is so much more popular than Dev why is Finna Fail so much more popular than Fine Gael? Is this ebcause both have lost hitorical alligances or for another reason?

I might be wrong on any point of this so feel free to correct me!

Like I said I'm not trying to start an argument/debate or anything just that this would be really really useful to know before my interview and I knowthat a lot of people on here would probably be able to help me.

Thanks very much in advance (and sorry if any part of this was incorrect/inappropriate/caused offence).

[Dodge]

Probably a question put to google or wikipedia. Here you'll just get opinion upon opinion and it will end in an argument

[klein4]

I think on a very basic level.....Collins died quite young while Dev lived to be old enough ....think John Lennon and Paul MacArtney in the beatles! (altho am not sure people dislike dev so much to be vandalising his grave....)

[liam88]

Probably a question put to google or wikipedia. Here you'll just get opinion upon opinion and it will end in an argument

Ok. Honest to God I didn't intend an argument at all! It's jus i'm applying for History and Politics and I talked about one special interest (along with Burmese politics) being politics/history of Northern Ireland and relations between Ireland and Britain. Thought they might ask me about the relationship between history and politics in the Republic though and I'm confused because it seems;

Dev=unpopular FF=most popular
Collins=v. popular FG=Less popular

Does this mean the parties have lost their historical link?
I have havn't lived in the Republic let alone voted so could someone like Mick, hate Dev and vote FF......does view of civil war/Dev/Mick influence voting today at all or is it all on todays policies? (in general)

Basically i'm asking does history affect the way you vote?
Is this generall true/untrue across Ireland?

There is a link between politics and history in Britain but it deffinatly seems weaker. Link between society and histor yin general seems weaker-don't get the same level of things like the graves i mentioned.

Honest like I said before I'm not trying to start an argument. I just finid that the best way to find out about Republic of Ireland politics (which as I said my knowledge of is limited) is to visit places and ask people things :)

Thanks,
Liam

[Poor Student]

I'm sleepy and it's years since I touched it but I'll give this a small go. Dev's FF became acceptable when the Cumann na nGaedhael (not Fine Gael until 1934) party forced Dev's boys to accept they would take a seat in the Dáil before standing for election as in the early 20's Dev's lads were not taking their seats. De Velera ran Fianna Fail under a very nationalist and some would argue even theocratic ethos and this populist approach appealed to the Irish citizens. He came in at a perfect time and built on the stepping stones of the previous government in wrangling freedom from Britain and cranked the whole process up a lot higher only falling short of declaring a republic. He ripped up the old constitution and replaced it was a quite nationalist and overtly Catholic Church influenced one. I think in this period from 32-48 Fianna Fail established itself as Ireland's natural party of government. Matters such as a populist approach often sticking it to Britain and preserving our neutrality in WW2 probably helped galvanise it all. The next big factor after this was Fianna Fail's move away from the failing protectionist economic model under De Velera by Sean Lemass in the 1950's. This showed Fianna Fail's fluidity and ability to move with demands and basically showed they were capable of being a popular party moving with people's wishes. They have continued to do this since. It is also imperically proven that children of FF voters are most likely to vote after their parents that any other party. Ireland itself has low voter volatility (voters changing parties) compared to other Western European states. Sorry these thoughts are a bit jumbled as it is late.

[Macy]

During my visit to Glasnevian Cementry over the summer I saw how De Velera's grave is consistantly vandalised whilse Collin's in constantly covered in flowers, cards etc.
Really? My cousin was a groundsmen in Glasnevin and I've never heard mention of that. Been up there a few times for funerals and never noticed Dev's to be vandalised or anything, or Collins to be particularly covered in flowers or anything. When in the summer were you over - wouldn't have been around the 22nd August would it?

[klein4]

I think some things to consider with Fianna Fail is they have always been extremely well organised at local level.(cumanns etc) As well as that they have always been a very populist party. always seeming to mean all things to all men. Ireland didnt really have the Left/Right divide that characterised other countries. would agree with the previous poster as well. Fianna Fail have been in power so long that they always had the air of natural goverment. And hindsight shouldnt really blur the fact that DevAlera was a very charasmatic leader with links to 1916 and war of independance.

[ThatGuy]

I admit this is politicial but it is in no way intended to be contreversial. I'm having a university interview for politcs and history (combined course) in a couple of weeks and i'm stuck on a point of politics in the Republic of Ireland that might come up.
(I admit my knowledge of Politics in the Republic is limited so i'm really greatful for any help!)

So historical alligances originating in the civil war still exist. ~During my visit to Glasnevian Cementry over the summer I saw how De Velera's grave is consistantly vandalised whilse Collin's in constantly covered in flowers, cards etc. Throughout Ireland people generally seem a lot more sympathetic to Collins than Dev. So if Collin's is so much more popular than Dev why is Finna Fail so much more popular than Fine Gael? Is this ebcause both have lost hitorical alligances or for another reason?

I might be wrong on any point of this so feel free to correct me!

Like I said I'm not trying to start an argument/debate or anything just that this would be really really useful to know before my interview and I knowthat a lot of people on here would probably be able to help me.

Thanks very much in advance (and sorry if any part of this was incorrect/inappropriate/caused offence).
People are more sympathetic towards Collins because he was killed, he is a romantic figure in Irish history, a great leader. He was not as pro-treaty as the likes of Griffiths etc, he went along with it because he thought it would have been best. Had he survived I doubt Irish politics would have followed the same path and Fine Gael may never have came to be.

[liam88]

Really? My cousin was a groundsmen in Glasnevin and I've never heard mention of that. Been up there a few times for funerals and never noticed Dev's to be vandalised or anything, or Collins to be particularly covered in flowers or anything. When in the summer were you over - wouldn't have been around the 22nd August would it?
I'm just going purely on what I was told by the guide mate (he did admit to being pro-Collin's anti Dev).
It was 30th August, what's relevance of 22nd?

He said that Dev's is the "most vandalised gave in Ireland" and has been smashed, set on fire and had yellow paint tipped over it. There was one whithered flower and a small tri colour on it when I went.

He said that Collins' grave is "covered in birthday cards on his birthday, valentines cards on valentines day, Christmas cards at Christmas and flowers all year round"

Certainly when I went it was covered in flowers but these may be left over from the 22nd you mentioned? Lot's of very personal cards to him in the flowers.

A much nicer grave than Devs to! Big 8ft cross set apart as opposed to the very ordinary headstone on Devs which was in a row with the other FF graves.


Have to say it was a great trip and really worth going round! 105 minute tour was absolutley brilliant and seeing the 10's grave, the hunger striker memorial, O'Connols crypt, Dev's, Micks, McBrides was really good; great peace of history and amazing how everybody from people who straved to death to the Tisoch are buried there.

[Dazzy]

I'm just going purely on what I was told by the guide mate (he did admit to being pro-Collin's anti Dev).
It was 30th August, what's relevance of 22nd?

The Anniversary of Collins Death!

[Lim till i die]

A strange one about the graves in Glasnevin. I defy anyone to easily find Collin's birthplace in West Cork or Beal na Blath for that matter with the signpost's regularly vandalised by idiots.

Anyway basically Collins is revered for dying young and through his incredible intelligence, mind for detail and bravery playing a large part in gaining independence for the 26 counties while the long fella was on a junket in America. People conveniantly forget that Collins was no liberal (an origional constitution for the Free State drawn up with the help of Labour was dismissed as Bolshevik by him) He was without a doubt, however a great leader and statesman who had far greater vision (and a lot less sectarianism) than his contemporaries and there is no doubt in my mind that he would have led Ireland down a far better economic and social path than the stagnation of Dev's Ireland. Sean Lemass based his economic views on a pamphlet of Collins'. Treaty politics largely died off with the second generation following the split, Fine Gael (pro treaty) having largely come to represent the big farmers and professional classes in the eyes of the people while Fianna Fail (anti treaty) to a certain extent filled the void left by the lack of a coherent labour movement in the country. At the present day the difference between both parties has become pretty negligable.

Hope thats bit helpful, most I can think of at the mo :o