Best Champions?

[sonofstan]

This will probably generate partisan heat rather than light, but I wonder...are Cork better champions than Shels over the last two seasons or us in '02/'03? - and, to put the same question another way, will they do better in the champions league? for my money, they're more creative than Shels in the last two years and as good (at least) as our last championship team. What does anyone think?

[The Stars]

ya they are the best Champions that ive seen for a few years at least.

[dfx-]

I don't think it is down to be most creative to be the best champions it is those who are most formidable...the combination of Molloy, Gilzean and Gormley at Pats were *at least* as formidable than Cork or Derry or Shels for different reasons, imo.

[Saint Tom]

well since the four in a row, only two teams have retained titles

in our case we won three in four years in two sequences (96-99) or (98-01). this cork side are good no doubt

[Troy.McClure]

still cant beat waterford:D
Congrats (ye are vieing with UCD as the small club that City find it hard to beat).

That Pats team was great, although Id say that City would probably beat them as they are a full pro team where as Pats werent quite (and who knows, City might win the double ;)).

Anyway, City set a record points total last night so its fair to say that they are one of the best teams of modern times.

[sonofstan]

Anyway, City set a record points total last night so its fair to say that they are one of the best teams of modern times.
Not really like with like though is it? Shels last two titles were on 36 match seasons; our last title was a 27 match season; and while Cork's total might be impressive on 3 fewer matches, you have to reckon that, with two extra teams in the division, they're going to be weaker teams meaning -potentially - 9 easy points; instead of 4 games against the tough teams, you only have three and so on. Until we have a fair run of seasons with the same format and number of teams these comparisons are meaningless

[harry crumb]

I think that Bohs team that won the league under Stephen Kenny were also an excellent side and were great to watch.

The Shels team are full of winners, I mean just watch Eoin Heary, but a lot of the time they won more because of their phyisical approach than their classy football. But I think over the last 2 months they are are a better team that they were in the previous 2 seasons.

I think history will look favourably on this seasons champions. They played the game for the large part of the season the way it should be played. It was justification to the Richardson style of play.:ball: :)

[Soko]

Ask me again in a couple of years.

[sonofstan]

The Shels team are full of winners, I mean just watch Eoin Heary, but a lot of the time they won more because of their phyisical approach than their classy football. But I think over the last 2 months they are are a better team that they were in the previous 2 seasons.
)
Think you might be right - they played us off the pitch last night; Fenlon would be mad to sell Ndo, though, as has been suggested on another thread

[Speranza]

Despite finishing second we still passed the previous record points total.

$hels last year were the best champions I have seen but not as good as the treble winners of '89 for us even though I was too young to remember no team have done it since.

[A face]

This will probably generate partisan heat rather than light, but I wonder...are Cork better champions than Shels over the last two seasons or us in '02/'03? - and, to put the same question another way, will they do better in the champions league? for my money, they're more creative than Shels in the last two years and as good (at least) as our last championship team. What does anyone think?

Shels should have done alot better this summer .... they are (were) capable of alot more that they actually did. I dont know what happened but when they sorted it out, they went on a brilliant run.

Was it Fenlon saying in an interview that the players have to ship some of the blame or what (obviously not but something happened anyway) but Shels got back on track.

They were capable of far more and didn't realise it, which is harder to stomach because i dont mind if we are not able and give it a good shot, i mean anything you get there is all good. But Shels ARE/WERE able to do more, but things didn't fall into place. But no doubt they'll be back.

[Slash/ED]

Think you might be right - they played us off the pitch last night; Fenlon would be mad to sell Ndo, though, as has been suggested on another thread

If Fenlon willingly sells Ndo he should he put away. He is an incredible player.

As for what happened, it's as simple as we finally started picking our right team. I don't think it was ever a case of motivation or committment as people say. It is no coincidence whatsoever that our turn around in form came when the two biggest liabilities in the team, Crawley and Baker (Why on earth we re-signed him is beyond most peoples grasp), were removed. Cahill went to left back and Bobby Ryan, who was outstanding until his injury, came in. This meant we didn't have the almighty long ball merchant at left back or a player not capable of playing in a proper footballing side on the right wing. We also at pretty much the same time reintrudocued our best player, Joey Ndo, into the side in central mid field after his inexplicable and very frustrating absence from the side. We now had a real play maker in the middle, and suddenly the team was playing football rather than long ball which we're far more suited to doing. We have only lost once since and we've played every team in the league in that 12 game run, and it sets us up very nicely for next season. I just wish we did it earlier as the fans were crying out for those changes literally from the start of the season. We'd have given Steaua a far better game for a start, but it all bodes very well for next season.

[hoopy]

I'm hoping all of you guys are too young to remember our 4 in a row side in the 80s, either that or you're all taking the ****

[Speranza]

By that measure we are also better then as ourselves and Cork broke the points record! Obviously because Cork won they will be remembered.

TBH if we won on Friday I think we would still find credit hard to come by due to the rapid rise of our team.

[geysir]

I'm hoping all of you guys are too young to remember our 4 in a row side in the 80s, either that or you're all taking the ****
Not too bad there. Nearly good enough. But as the LOI representatives in the European cup on those 4 occasions Rovers were knocked out in the 1st round (Omonia, Lingfield, Celtic and Honved).
My vote goes to the Mc Laughlin Dundalk team 76 - 82 champions thrice, r/u twice. In this period Dundalk's European record did the League proud. I would say that the best record for League champions is the team of 1978/79, League and cup winners and then blazing a trail in the European cup beating Lingfield, Hibernians and eventually going out to a very fortunate Celtic. They then lost the league title to Limerick by a point.

[Drumcondra Red]

I think 2 in a row in the professional era speaks for itself, and if it was Shelbourne I think many more would agree!!!

[Roverstillidie]

I think 2 in a row in the professional era speaks for itself, and if it was Shelbourne I think many more would agree!!!

and the 4 in a row team played for a hug at the end of the week?

there were many full time professional clubs in the league before shels recent switch. if you were older than 17 you would know that.

ffs :rolleyes:

[Drumcondra Red]

Erm, I'm talking full-time professional, as many clubs have become in the last few years, and I'm 24 you plank!

Fair play to winning 4 in a row fella, but I do believe that champions the last few years, including Cork, would beat most teams from the 80's, thats just my opinion, although my first Shelbourne match wasn't until roughly 1990-91 so didn't actually experience 80's NL football first hand, ok???

[Peadar]

I think that Bohs team that won the league under Stephen Kenny were also an excellent side and were great to watch.

I agree with that. Also the Bohs side that won the double under Roddy.

The Pats side in the late 90's were great too.

As a Cork City fan, I'm incredibly proud because we won the league on merit and with style. We were pushed hard by a very good Derry side. Some of our football was a joy to watch this season. I don't think it's right to talk about teams being better champions than others though.

[Roverstillidie]

Erm, I'm talking full-time professional, as many clubs have become in the last few years, and I'm 24 you plank!



your actual age is irrellevant. im making the point that many shels fans think the league started the day they began following oilies army.

The ignorance of a statement that clubs have only become full time pro in the last few years is astounding. You really know nothing about this leagues history at all, do you?

The league was fully pro (at least the top sides) until the early 70's.
Many clubs since then experimented with full time set ups (Rovers under Giles, Sligo under McStay/Sanchez/Reid etc etc.).

Whether this Cork side would beat a Rovers side including Buckley (went from Rovers to play in Spain and Belguim), Beglin (sold to Liverpool), O'Brien (sold to Man Utd), Pat Byrne (semi-regular in the Irish side at the time), Mick Byrne, Campbell, Coady (sold to Chelsea) and Larkin is obiously a matter of opinion, but these were serious footballers who would have won more if it wasnt for the Milltown debacle.

Cork are a good side and fair play, but lets not go mad quite yet.

[TonyD]

Just to set the record straight. A couple of Derry fans have stated that they beat the previous points record as well as Cork. Sorry lads, you didn't. Pats finished on 73 points in 1999 which was the record for the 12 team league as far as I'm aware. Derry finished on 72 this season. As for comparing teams from different eras, it's impossible to say. I reckon the standard of the league, at least in terms of fitness, is higher now than it was for the Rovers 4 in a row side, not that I'm taking anything away from that side. And to the best of my knowledge most teams were not full time in the sixties or seventies. Full time teams have been few and far between until the last couple of seasons.

[Speranza]

It was widely reported in the media that both clubs broke the record. :confused: Did Pats play more games?

[dancinpants]

Tony is right:

From rsssf website:

1998-1999

1. St.Patrick's Athletic.......33 22 7 4 58-21 73
2. Cork City.....................33 21 7 5 62-25 70
3. Shelbourne..................33 13 8 12 37-35 47

As for the thread question - can't really argue with the Rovers 4 in a row IMO.

[Block G Raptor]

You Are all talking Shyte. Cork Scraped the Title on the last day of the season How can they be compared to the Double winning Bohs Team or the Rovers four in a row side. Give me a Break If they win it again next year then this thread will have a lot more point to it

[Block G Raptor]

I agree with that. Also the Bohs side that won the double under Roddy.

The Pats side in the late 90's were great too.

As a Cork City fan, I'm incredibly proud because we won the league on merit and with style. We were pushed hard by a very good Derry side. Some of our football was a joy to watch this season. I don't think it's right to talk about teams being better champions than others though.

Yourself and roverstill I die are not included in the above post :)

[Drumcondra Red]

your actual age is irrellevant. im making the point that many shels fans think the league started the day they began following oilies army.

The ignorance of a statement that clubs have only become full time pro in the last few years is astounding. You really know nothing about this leagues history at all, do you?

The league was fully pro (at least the top sides) until the early 70's.
Many clubs since then experimented with full time set ups (Rovers under Giles, Sligo under McStay/Sanchez/Reid etc etc.).

Whether this Cork side would beat a Rovers side including Buckley (went from Rovers to play in Spain and Belguim), Beglin (sold to Liverpool), O'Brien (sold to Man Utd), Pat Byrne (semi-regular in the Irish side at the time), Mick Byrne, Campbell, Coady (sold to Chelsea) and Larkin is obiously a matter of opinion, but these were serious footballers who would have won more if it wasnt for the Milltown debacle.

Cork are a good side and fair play, but lets not go mad quite yet.

I'm fully aware of the leagues existance before I started supporting Shelbourne, I previously stated I didn't attend a game until circa 1990-1991, therefor having limited knowledge of the league prior to that, so it was in my opinion which I believe according to the constitution, and in particular the right to free speech, I am still entitled to, and regardless of your petty insults and snide remarks!


The league was fully pro (at least the top sides) until the early 70's

And was then part-time, which I believe until recent years, when players had day jobs as well as their careers, and when did I ever say that they weren't serious footballers???

My opinion still stands, that now in the professional age wherediet, lifestyles and fitness play a massive role along with improved training drills and knowledge, I believe champions from this era, would probably come out on top in a battle with a team of the 80's, does that clarify that for you RTID???

[tiktok]

There's little point to this debate in fairness, you can't really compare teams from different era's.

Have to say though that the Rovers four in a row teams were exceptional and way above the level of anyone else playing at the time, I think the point DR is making is that the playing field is more level over the last few years, which made Shels retaining the title so impressive.

[geysir]

Fair play to winning 4 in a row fella, but I do believe that champions the last few years, including Cork, would beat most teams from the 80's, thats just my opinion, although my first Shelbourne match wasn't until roughly 1990-91 so didn't actually experience 80's NL football first hand, ok???
You can only be the best of your time. And a fair measure of a LOI champions quality in any period is how well they did in Europe, it is a fair reflection on the strength of the league at that time and the quality of the team. 4 in a row Rovers were the best in Ireland by a country mile then but had a desperately poor record in Europe. Got knocked out in the 1st round every time by teams such as the champions of Cyprus and NI. Neither that Rovers team nor any other team mentioned from yesteryears have a better record than Mc Laughlin's Dundalk double winning team AND their European record as LOI representatives (with no summer football) sustained for 5/6 years.
This Cork City team are very good, professional approach and are ambitious to represent the league and further achieve in European competition with realistic hopes of success. Just a bit more of the same of what they have been doing and they will have earned the Best Champions tag, it looks to me that they want to do better than that.

[Macy]

It was widely reported in the media that both clubs broke the record.
You should know by now, never trust the stats put forward by the media... :D

[noby]

It was widely reported in the media that both clubs broke the record. :confused: Did Pats play more games?
Derry broke the runners-up record

[bohsmug]

I think they were saying that the champions would hold the points record, Derry would have needed a point to be champions which would equal the record and therefore they'd hold it (albeit along with pats). I'm a Bohs fan (as you may have guessed) but to block G raptor we scraped the league on the last day when we won the double and we had to rely on Shels to lose on the last day, until the foot and mouth crisis we hadn't even managed to win 3 on the spin and we only finished with 62 points (and that was the season were kilkenny didn't even manage ten:eek: ). The side we won the league with under Kenny were better in any case.

[Tenderloins]

Irish results in Europe have got better with a number of things, the break up of the Soviet Union, Summer Football and the advent of the Champions League.
Why?
Before the Champions League, Rovers could be drawn against The Uniteds, Munichs etc in the first round draw. There was no pre qualifiers or the like.
52 countries entered teams for the CL/UEFA cup this year, where as 20 years ago there were 30 countries entering teams. Malta, Luxemburg, Cyprus being among the weakest.
The four in a row team nor Giles team (which was more successful in Europe) hadn't the chance to take on the likes of Cuwmbran Town, AC Vaduz etc. Yes they got knocked out on away goals by Linfield, Nicosia etc . Over the years though Rovers did beat Fram Reykjavik, Spora Luxembourg ,Apoel Nicosia etc over two legs.
For first round ties over the years Rovers got drawn against the likes of Man utd, Valencia (drew 2-2 away).Real Zaragosa (1-1 at home), Bayern Munich (1-1 at home, lost 3-2 to a late goal in Munich), Cardiff City (drew 1-1 at home), Schalke 04 (beat them 2-1 at home).also the likes of Honved, University Craiova, Celtic and Banik Ostrava.
Over the years the Omnia Nicosia and Linfield results were the ones that Rovers should have won. Not a bad record.
As I say Irish teams record in Europe up until the fall of the Iron Curtain and advent of the Champions League is distorted by the quality of potential opposition.
If the four in a row team had similar European draws to Irish teams over the last few years, I would have expected them to do better. Still we'll never know.

[pete]

I see how anyone biased or not can suggest that this Cork City side scrapped a title on the last day. They fairly beat the 2nd best side in the country playing some great passing & attacking football.

Shels get great credit for a 2 in a row as is very difficult in modern times wiht so many extra games.

What has really impressed me with 2005 city side that played 6 games in Uefa Cup, 4 in the Setanta Cup & also in FAI Cup final. I think people underestimate the quality required to mix big European games with league games. As well as having new manager we also lost our top scorer & best player early in the season. Really only used mainly 18 players all season.

I still feel this city side lacks a forward to play alongside O'Flynn who is also injured fairly often.

Doing the double would mark this team as special in modern times.

[ThatGuy]

Bar the championship that Shels won because of the Marney shenanigans, each league winning team has been worthy champions. Whether you win the league by a point or by 20 points doesn't matter. Shelbourne were great champions in 2000, the double was fantastic, Bohs were great champions in 2001, another double and great European nights. The next league was a tarnished title, Bohs the next year were great, as Shels were in the next seasons, and Cork were fantastic this year and possibly will be double champions.

There is nothing to seperate the great Shels, Bohs and Cork (if they win the double) teams IMO.

[pete]

Whoever finishes top of the table is best team that year. You cannot fluke a title over 33 games.

[The Sheliban]

The Rovers four-in-a-row side were pretty formidable. You knew before a game you wouldn't get anything out of them, and they swept everybody else aside for four years. But does that make them the best, or was the rest of the league just crap?
Also the best footballing teams are not necessarily the best teams. Shels played scintillating football under Rico, while Set Piece Athletic picked up the Leagues.
Naturally though, because everybody sees their own team so much, they think their own side plays the best football. For example, Derry fans have seen us four times this season, and we've not performed particularly well against them, so they probably think we're dull and unimaginative. Yet some of our performances against other teams have been absolutely mesmeric.
So its pretty hard to be objective.

[lofty9]

I think they were saying that the champions would hold the points record, Derry would have needed a point to be champions which would equal the record and therefore they'd hold it (albeit along with pats). I'm a Bohs fan (as you may have guessed) but to block G raptor we scraped the league on the last day when we won the double and we had to rely on Shels to lose on the last day, until the foot and mouth crisis we hadn't even managed to win 3 on the spin and we only finished with 62 points (and that was the season were kilkenny didn't even manage ten:eek: ). The side we won the league with under Kenny were better in any case.


So it is foot and mouth that we have to blame for Shoddy's double? He didn't tell us that one:D

[bohsmug]

So it is foot and mouth that we have to blame for Shoddy's double? He didn't tell us that one:D

and he's been putting his foot in his mouth ever since

[Block G Raptor]

and he's been putting his foot in his mouth ever since
:D :D :D

[sonofstan]

Bar the championship that Shels won because of the Marney shenanigans, each league winning team has been worthy champions. Whether you win the league by a point or by 20 points doesn't matter. Shelbourne were great champions in 2000, the double was fantastic, Bohs were great champions in 2001, another double and great European nights. The next league was a tarnished title, Bohs the next year were great, as Shels were in the next seasons, and Cork were fantastic this year and possibly will be double champions.

There is nothing to seperate the great Shels, Bohs and Cork (if they win the double) teams IMO.

So everybody is fantastic..... (are you really a Bohs fan?)

[TonyD]

Also the best footballing teams are not necessarily the best teams. Shels played scintillating football under Rico, while Set Piece Athletic picked up the Leagues.

Oh Dear, still bitter I see :D . I'm pretty bloody tired of that cliche to be honest. I mean, a team that boasted Gormley, Osam and then Russell as it's midfield, yeah Wimbledon in disguise alright :rolleyes: OK, we did get a lot of goals from Set Pieces, primarily because of the excellence of delivery from the aforementioned players. And are you telling me Shels weren't trying to score when they got free kicks and corners ? Silly them in that case I say. They should have tried it.:cool: