Michael Noonan's hoodie ban

[finlma]

Michael Noonan has proposed banning hoodies from shopping centres to prevent shoplifting :eek:
This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard. I'm a professional and I occasionally wear a hoodie. The Nanny State taking over.

Maybe we should just all undress going into shopping centres, leave our clothes in a little box and pick them back up on the way out. That will solve any shoplifting.


http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1502173&issue_id=13238

[Dawn_Run]

He's watching too much british news. The enforced that a few months back in Britain along with loitering in shopping centers.

Cant see it wash over here. Its the most rediculous solution to shoplifting i've ever heard. Hoodies are banned, but balaclavas are acceptable? Get a life Noonan...

[dahamsta]

Noonan's a failed, useless leader, no-one should be listening to him. Particularly when he's proposing populist policies that he didn't have the imagination to come up with himself.

[WeAreRovers]

Fine Gael with their fingers on the pulse as ever. :rolleyes:

KOH

[Dodge]

I'm delibarately wearing hoodies more often thse days...

[dcfcsteve]

To be fair, there is a large degree of sense in what he is saying.

It's a fact that hoodies are often worn-up (sometimes combined with a baseball cap) by people in order to hide their identity from CCTV cameras. This can make it very difficult to press charges and/or take action on shop-lifting, as you can't identify the culprit. Those wearing the hoodies up know that - hence why they do it.

The insides of Shopping Centres aren't exactly cold places, so there is no genuine need to have a hoody up.

If you tried to walk into a bank with a motorcycle helmet on you would be prevented, and they have signs to say as much. It's a different level on the scale, but the principle and purpose is the same.

He should clarify that the problem is only with people who wear their hoodies 'up' in these places. I also have a few hooded-tops that I wear, and would have no problem being told to take my hood down inside a warm shopping centre if needs be.

A number of major shopping centres in England (beginning with Bluewater in Kent) brought in similar bans themselves. I'm a liberal, and I see no problem with it.

[trevy]

What a load of rubbish.I wear hoodies sometimes and am in my late 20's and not a 'skanger'.Maybe I should be banned from going into shopping centres too:confused: :rolleyes: .Is that the best they can come up with?

[WeAreRovers]

I'm delibarately wearing hoodies more often thse days...

I've taken to sewing hoods on to my Lacoste polos.

dcfcsteve - I'm your #1 fan on here but you've lost me on this one. Telling people what items of leisure wear they can and cannot wear in premises that actually sell the said items is yet another crock of authoritarian BS.

KOH

[dcfcsteve]

What a load of rubbish.I wear hoodies sometimes and am in my late 20's and not a 'skanger'.Maybe I should be banned from going into shopping centres too:confused: :rolleyes: .Is that the best they can come up with?

That's why it should be clarified that any ban should NOT be on wearing hooded-tops full-stop - only a ban on wearing the hoods up inside such places.

As an aside, there's an OAP's group in a town in England who have started wearing hooded-tops when they're out and about. Their theory is that by doing so they are making the tops uncool, so kids in their area will stop wearing them. Classic bit of geriatric banter... :D There was a great quote from one old dear saying how she really liked them, as they kept her lovely and warm....

[Tired&Emotional]

If that's the best FG can come up with, at what is probably the start of a pre election hustings, then good luck to them .....Noonan has to be the weakest opposition party leaders this country has ever had!

Yes he's taking this one from across the water....what will he come up with next.....Jamie Oliver to overhaul school dinners??!!!

[dcfcsteve]

I've taken to sewing hoods on to my Lacoste polos.

dcfcsteve - I'm your #1 fan on here but you've lost me on this one. Telling people what items of leisure wear they can and cannot wear in premises that actually sell the said items is yet another crock of authoritarian BS.

KOH

The policy should be : fine to wear hoodies, but not with the hood up. Wear them if you like - just don't use them to hide your identity.

Just like a bank will say - no problem carrying your motorcyle helmet in with you, but you have to take it off before entering the premises so as not to hide your identity from the cameras.

Hey - I've got a fan...! :D

[pete]

It's a fact that hoodies are often worn-up (sometimes combined with a baseball cap) by people in order to hide their identity from CCTV cameras. This can make it very difficult to press charges and/or take action on shop-lifting, as you can't identify the culprit.


Exactly, people from all walks of life may wear hoodies but IMO only skangers, junkies & shoplifters actually wear the hoods.

I own hoodies but can say i've never worn with the hood up as would be picked up as drug dealer in Dublin.

[finlma]

I've actually looked into this a bit more and it seems that the problem is lazy journalism on the part of the Indo (now there's a suprise).

The call is for a ban on actual hoods being worn inside and not on hoodies. The shop owner would be given discretion.

More details:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/11/09/story229479.html

[WeAreRovers]

Hey - I've got a fan...! :D

I've been outed - stop sniggering down the back - usually I agree with your postings on politics and social issues. So much so that it saves me the bother of posting myself.

The hoodies thing is pure daft though, one kid in Manchester has been banned from wearing hoodies for 5 years under an ASBO. And don't even get me started on ASBOs. :mad:

KOH

[Peadar]

The policy should be : fine to wear hoodies, but not with the hood up. Wear them if you like - just don't use them to hide your identity.



I'm with you on this one Stevo.

[dahamsta]

Don't you guys get that this kind of idiocy is what led to the riots in Paris? Just because it's not religious doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Whatever happened to punishing people for committing crimes?

adam

[WeAreRovers]

Lads, 20% of the worlds cctv cameras are in the UK, Leamington Spa has more cameras than New York. Those are truly frightening statistics for the freedom-lovers among us.

I would encourage everyone to wear a hood and hide their identities. Big Brother has all the advantages, at least lets hang on to one for the little people.

http://www.spy.org.uk

KOH

[Peadar]

Whatever happened to punishing people for committing crimes?

You have to catch them and convict them first.
Think about it Adam.

[WeAreRovers]

You have to catch them and convict them first.
Think about it Adam.

He has you there Adam. :rolleyes:

Speaking of catching and convicting, Blair lost the 90 day detention vote today. Great news, his first ever defeat and a victory for common sense, liberty and justice.

KOH

[Dodge]

Telling people what items of leisure wear they can and cannot wear in premises that actually sell the said items is yet another crock of authoritarian BS
you left out the final C there WaR...

[anto1208]

i used to work in a off licence and we had to ban people wearing hoodies , hats or motor bike helmets , after being hit over the head with cans , punched head butted treatend with screw drivers knives and even guns i felt it was ok to impose what is a tiny request on the customer to take a hood down . and yes it cut the crime rate by at least 95 % in that shop anyway .

whats even more annoying about a nanny state is the people that are opposed to the laws they have to bring in , is taking down a hood really such a big deal i wear hoodies all the time if i was asked to remove the hood id have no problem what so ever , but thats because ive nothing to hide i suppose .

also with the asbo's people are very quick to dissmiss them , normally they are the same people that dont have scum drinking on the wall outside there house , trowing rubbish into there gardens , breaking windows , trowing horse sh1t at the house, kicking in doors , setting fire to the house , shouting abuse at them as they go about there day , stealing there car , writting grafety all over there house ... listening to either j ryan or joe duffy 's shows have highlighted such activities ..

asbo's work i really dont care if some scum bag has his liberties infringed on slighty im sick of do gooder's putting the criminal ahead of the victim

[WeAreRovers]

listening to either j ryan or joe duffy 's shows have highlighted such activities ..



And you were doing so well up to then...... :eek:

KOH

[dahamsta]

You have to catch them and convict them first.
Think about it Adam.I don't get it Peadar, are you seriously trying to tell me that we should round up all guys in shopping centres with their hoods up, because they're criminals? Or because they're potential criminals? Both are misguided, dangerous precendents.

And isn't that why we should have more policemen and women on the beat, like we were promised? You don't think that would go some way to solving the problem?

And aren't you getting into Minority Report territory with this? I like watching bank robbery and burglary movies, and often fantasise afterwards about pulling off the ultimate non-violent bank job myself. Should I be arrested because I have the potential to succeed?

It's a ridiculous policy, I can't believe you're giving it any credence whatsoever.

adam

[Schumi]

I don't get it Peadar, are you seriously trying to tell me that we should round up all guys in shopping centres with their hoods up, because they're criminals? Or because they're potential criminals? Bring back internment, it worked perfectly.

[pete]

I don't get it Peadar, are you seriously trying to tell me that we should round up all guys in shopping centres with their hoods up, because they're criminals? Or because they're potential criminals? Both are misguided, dangerous precendents.


I think he is suggesting that you can be refused entry to retail premises if you are wearing a hood up which seems perfectly fine to me. At the moment retailers have no right to do this as would be discrimination.

There are too many freeloaders in society these days who content to steal from others so we have higher taxes & pay more for goods.

I suggest you live in Dublin for few months Adam as research.

The guards don't lock up innocent people - isn't it better to prevent the crime by arresting in advance? ;) Wouldn't it be great if the guards could arrest all the criminals they know breaking the law but can't catch?

[anto1208]

And you were doing so well up to then...... :eek:

KOH

how else are you going to hear such stories i dont live in a dodgy neighbourhood plenty of my mates do they tell me these stories but there isnt much point in me quoting them as no one here knows them ,so i used a reference most people would be familar with .

[Dodge]

Mates tell lies. FACT. Its ****ing scare mongering f the highest order. Poxy evening herald and talk radio....

[Bald Student]

I think the hoodie ban is just being suggested as a proxy to a skanger ban.

[1 9 2 8]

To annoy stewards and the Guards at football games wear your hood up with your scarf over your face:D

[dcfcsteve]

Don't you guys get that this kind of idiocy is what led to the riots in Paris? Just because it's not religious doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Whatever happened to punishing people for committing crimes?

adam

As Peader pointed out - if you can't identify them you can't convict them....

I am way more libertarian-minded than the average person, but I see no harm with asking people not to wear hoodies up in warm places where there is a fear of crime being committed by people using them to hide their identities.

Who the hell needs to wear a hoodie up inside a warm shopping centre anyway ?? It makes no sense. There is no justifiable reason for doing it, and it's as ridiculous as walking round with a big golf umbrella over your head in Dunnes Stores. People do plenty of weird things, but when some of those are closely associated with criminal activity - and in fact reduce the ability to counter criminal activity - then we shouldn't be surprised if the freedom to do those 'weird things' declines.

Aas there is no sensible reason for doing so, wearing a hoody up inside a warm shopping centre often suggests intent to hide one's identity in the pursuit of a criminal act. Carrying a knife doesn't mean you will ever do anything with that knife, but it's still suggests intent, and is therefore a crime. There's obviosuly a gulf between the two, but it goes to show that suggesting intent is considered illegal in other aspects of the law.

[dcfcsteve]

The guards don't lock up innocent people - isn't it better to prevent the crime by arresting in advance? ;) Wouldn't it be great if the guards could arrest all the criminals they know breaking the law but can't catch?

Wasn't that the unofficial policy of the Donegal Gardai for year.....? :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

I've been outed - stop sniggering down the back - usually I agree with your postings on politics and social issues. So much so that it saves me the bother of posting myself.

Well - no-ones actually seen us togethEr in the same room at the same time (unless the 2002 Cup Final in Tolka is taken into account...) so we could actually be the same person....!

Wooo-ha-haa-HAAAA ! :D

[dahamsta]

As Peader pointed out - if you can't identify them you can't convict them.If we had enough cops on the beat, which is the real solution to this any many other problems, they would be much more likely to be apprehended. This is putting the cart after the horse, trying to fix things on the cheap. This is a politician - an unimaginative, failure of a politician - trying to budget my security.


I am way more libertarian-minded than the average person, but I see no harm with asking people not to wear hoodies up in warm placesWill the relevant locations be defined as warm/enclosed places in the legislation Noonan proposes? Ten gets you twenty they won't be, because legislators are notorious for writing open-ended legislation, particularly right-wingers (viz. "Patriot" Act).

And if I want to wear my hoody with the hood up in an enclosed, well-heated place, it's my damned right to do so. It's clothes ffs.

Clothes! CLOTHES! Would you listen to yourselves?

adam

[superfrank]

That's ridiculous. Rerstricting what people wear is surely an infringement on human rights. And I thought FF were the right-wing party!!

[AidoM]

....... And I thought FF were the right-wing party!![/QUOTE]

Didn't Charlie McCreevy say at the weekend that Bertie was one of three real socialists in the Dail:eek: He said Joe Higgins was another but didn't name the third one.

Could it be Noonan:rolleyes:

[anto eile]

I would encourage everyone to .... hide their identities. Big Brother has all the advantages, at least lets hang on to one for the little people.


KOH

an interesting case. most countries dont allow anonymity,ireland is slightly less strict in the sense that were not obliged to carry id cards..though the shower of fascist ****s running this country are looking at this idea.

i remember a case in the usa about a year ago.a cop pulled over some fella who refused to give his name.got big coverage in papers and on tv about the right to anonymity

[anto eile]

ban tracksuits being worn unless its for athletic purposes

[dahamsta]

Hats and sunglasses because they hide your eyes. Everything else because they could disguise tattoos, birthmarks, body frame, artificial limbs, penis length and girth. Then we can start using cellulite patterns as an identifier and have this information logged in horrendously insecure RFID tags implanted under our skin. Live life in the nude, tracked constantly.

You think this is exaggeration? Look at America for chrissake! If you want to go there now you have to give a thumbprint in the airport, and you have no idea where that goes, or where it will go in the future. Social Security numbers are a commodity in the US, do you want your thumbprint to become one too?

adam

[Bald Student]

And if I want to wear my hoody with the hood up in an enclosed, well-heated place, it's my damned right to do so.And if a business owner wants to exclude you from his premises that's his right. I don't even see the need for a law.

Also, talking about numbers of guards is irelevant because they don't police shoplifters, private security does that.

[dahamsta]

And if a business owner wants to exclude you from his premises that's his right. I don't even see the need for a law.Exactly! There isn't. I absolutely guarantee that if a business owner did exclude someone because they were wearing a hoodie with the hood up, and it went right to the top of the court system available to Irish people (the European Court of Human Rights), it would go in favour of the business owner. That's what makes this whole thing such garbage, such blatant bandwagon jumping by that hack of a politician.

Like I said, if these muppets had our best interests at heart, they'd be promising more guards on the street. A lot more. And they'd follow through on that promise, unlike the current bunch of pathological liars. And Irish people would have the brains not to vote for those pathological liars again.

Course now I'm living in la-la-land, where Irish people vote with their brains, not with the encouragement of collective stupidity, and newspapers not good enough for lining a budgie's cage.

adam

[dcfcsteve]

the hoodies thing is pure daft though, one kid in Manchester has been banned from wearing hoodies for 5 years under an ASBO. And don't even get me started on ASBOs. :mad:

I'm afraid I will have to get everyone started on ASBO's WAR.... :)

Now - I personally don't like ASBO's. But what I will ask is - tell me a viable, workable alternative ?

Try living in some of the less salubrious parts of London, for example. There you have kids who are to all intents and purposes feral. They have no respect for anyone what so-ever, literally do what they want when they want, would stab/punch you as soon as look at you, and when challenged by the Police they know the limitations of the legal system inside-out so simply trot out all the rights in the world and get away with everything on the basis of the acts being very minor, evidence being difficult to gather and their age being so low. I'm talking about a very small number of people (not always kids) who are continuously involved in activities that make the lives of people in the communities in which they live an absolute and utter feckin' misery - day and night. That leave old people afraid to leave their homes, and neighbours afraid to speak out. For example - for 4 weeks either side of Halloween, parts of South London resemble Fallujah. There's kids launching firework at Council tower blocks at 4am, firing them across the street at random passers by etc. This happens for weeks - until they can no longer get their hands on fireworks. Then they go back to their usual acts of petty thuggery, vandalism and general crime for the rest of the year - like setting large estate-bins alight, then stoning the fire brigade when they come to put ithem out. Or attacking ambulance crews called to emergencies. Or... need I go on ?

It's usually the same small number of people who cause 95%+ of the problems in certain areas, and they are well known to the rest of the community. The police can do little about them, and their neighbours are too afraid to stand up to them. So what exactly do you propose is done to stop these people being an absolute menace to society ?

Dahamsta - if you're saying the answer to problems like these is simply to put more police on the beat, then you have a very limited grasp of public sector budgetary pressures and/or Police priorities. The Police in London do not have the time or resources to put to such relatively petty issues, nor indeed should much of their resources be prioritised on such relatively trivial issues. London is under the constant threat of major terrorist attack. It is the gun crime capital of Britain, a major international drugs centre, has massive sex-slave and inter-linked people smuggling industries, serious racist and homophobic crime, constant corruption and fraud occuring at all levels throughout the public and private sectors etc etc. And you want police resources spent and/or diverted to patrolling shopping centres keeping an eye on potential shop lifters........?

So what is the answer ? ASBO's are anti-libertarian and far from perfect. But you know what - they work ! There are plenty of examples of the level of crime and sheer thuggery in areas declining spectacularly as a result of ASBO's being served on known troublemakers. ASBO's were introduced because all other systems - parental control, police surveillance and intervention, community pressure, the standard judicial system - were failing to deal with a tiny number of people who destroy the quality of life of so many. No alternatives were working. ASBO's go some way towards giving a degree of power back to communities who are blighted by those who believe they are above the law.

So ignoring what is wrong with ASBO's for the momnent - tell me other genuinely workable ways of dealing with people who act and believe that they are above the law ?

P.S. My favourite threatened use of ASBO's has been against the Marketing Directors of the record labels etc that mess-up entire city centre areas with constant and indescriminate fly-posting. Has really cleaned-up the appearance of parts of certain English cities, without even having to act upon the threat.

[Peadar]

I don't get it Peadar, are you seriously trying to tell me that we should round up all guys in shopping centres with their hoods up, because they're criminals? Or because they're potential criminals? Both are misguided, dangerous precendents.

No, what I meant was that if you have someone committing a crime and covers their face with a hood, then it may not be easy to get a conviction when your main body of evidence is CCTV footage.

It's grand for people in Cork or well to do areas around the country to be talking about civil liberties and all that ideology but you never seem to consider the civil liberties of the victims of crime.

It's not too much to ask that someone remove their hood while entering a private premises. Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Hats and sunglasses because they hide your eyes. Everything else because they could disguise tattoos, birthmarks, body frame, artificial limbs, penis length and girth. Then we can start using cellulite patterns as an identifier and have this information logged in horrendously insecure RFID tags implanted under our skin. Live life in the nude, tracked constantly.

You think this is exaggeration? Look at America for chrissake! If you want to go there now you have to give a thumbprint in the airport, and you have no idea where that goes, or where it will go in the future. Social Security numbers are a commodity in the US, do you want your thumbprint to become one too?

adam

Adam you are of course perfectly correct in your theory but somewhat off the mark in your detail and application.

The discussion and issue is of well defined and contained phenomena -stickey headed, barcode-tached chavs using their hoods to disguise their identity while committing crime -in this case -predominantly petty theft.
As a baldy who weres a hat (and often a hood) about 60% of the day and 95% of the time I'm out of doors I have no problem whatsoever with a minor inconvenience re-instituting what is no more than a faded piece of ettiquette -just to make life a little more difficult for the slitty eyed glue-sniffing cnuts.

I could argue I'd be better off if they spent all their time in the shopping centers rather than at the end of my street -bravely harrassing people from the safe long grass of the hoods on their immitation Nike gear.

However -the end of my road is out of doors so they should of course be free to wear what they will as they like. Though one of these nights I'm gonna get me a giant hoodie for my wee punto and reverse over a few of wee *****s.:mad:

[anto1208]

If we had enough cops on the beat, which is the real solution to this any many other problems, they would be much more likely to be apprehended. This is putting the cart after the horse, trying to fix things on the cheap. This is a politician - an unimaginative, failure of a politician - trying to budget my security.


are you proposing a cop for every shop in the country just so some scum bags dont have there human right infringed on while they are robbing the shops , because thats the only way the cops will catch them .
if they have a hood up and cant be identified then as soon as they leave the shop there away with it . there is no evidence to convict them because there is no video footage of them commiting the crime !!.


think about what is being asked of them , take down a hood is it really such a big deal , this is worse than the smokers that would nt walk all of 5feet to the door of a pub the smoke there fags because they think there right to smoke im more important than my right not to breath in there smoke . its rubbish .


ive no problem with any of these ideas no hoodies , id cards , even dna data base , why because im not a criminal ive nothing to hide so what if the gov have my fingerprints it means nothing its not going to chance my life one single bit .

it winds me up people taking about there human rights , ye dont know how good ye have it in this country , ther are people starving to death being murdered raped etc all over the world as we speak and ye're here complaining about not being alloud to wear a hood up indoors FFS

[John83]

also with the asbo's people are very quick to dissmiss them , normally they are the same people that dont have scum drinking on the wall outside there house , trowing rubbish into there gardens , breaking windows , trowing horse sh1t at the house, kicking in doors , setting fire to the house , shouting abuse at them as they go about there day , stealing there car , writting grafety all over there house ...
I note that all of that is illegal without further legislation. Which neatly brings in Dahamsta's point:

If we had enough cops on the beat, which is the real solution to this any many other problems, they would be much more likely to be apprehended.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I note that all of that is illegal without further legislation. Which neatly brings in Dahamsta's point:

Fully agree that the guards need more cops on the beat. However chavs are well versed in the law -better than you'd imagine. You have to catch them in the act and have witnesses who along with yourself are willing to forego work, piece of mind and general security in order for successful prosecutions to be brought.

So in that respect I'm all for asbo's. I'm against the abuse of asbo's but the concept itself is fair.

On the other hand we have now slipped away from the nub of the issue, which is petty theft -onto general anti-social behaviour which is a much wider issue.

[Peadar]

I note that all of that is illegal without further legislation.

You're entirely correct but ASBO's target people who are too young to be prosecuted as adults.

[dcfcsteve]

I note that all of that is illegal without further legislation. Which neatly brings in Dahamsta's point:

Cops on the beat are widely recognised - particularly by the police themselves - as not being a significant source of crime-busting. Without gettign all Dvaid Brent, that is a fact.

It's obvious when you think about it - as if they're going to be walking around all day in their dayglo yellow jackets, endlessly tripping over people indulging in car-crime, vandalism, thuggery, shop-lifting etc mid-act. They're hardly in-disguise with those high-vis jackets, so would be spotted half a mile away by any vaguely observant/organised criminal fraternity. The reality is that cops stumble upon very few crimes on the course of their beat- paticularly crimes of any great magnitude. Admittedly at night they do find lots of drunken fights breaking out etc, but that's more a reflection of the incapacitated state of those involved, than on the sleuth-busting beat officers.

The main benefit of extra Police on the beat is that they increase people's perceived sense of safety. They do detect/prevent the odd crime, but it's laughable to suggest they would make a serious dent on the crime stats without literally saturating areas with them. And would you be happy with the massive increase in your taxes to pay for that ?

Throwing loads of Police out the station door to endlessly trawl the streets is a completely inefficient and ineffective response to crime. The Police have much bigger priorities than graffiti-painters, petty-vandals and occupational shop-lifters. And anyways - as soon as a beat Police officer aprehends someone, they then have to spend the next few hours off the streets tied-up in the paper work to process that petty criminal. It's madness to suggest this as a sensible way to impact upon crime - it just doesn't work in reality !

[pete]

Wasn't that the unofficial policy of the Donegal Gardai for year.....? :eek:

That was working fine until do gooders in D4 found out ;)

The suggesting that we need to have extra gardai on the beat to preserve the right to wear hoodies indoors is laughable. Why should we have to pay more taxes for skanger rights?

BTW hoodies + Celtic tops should be banned too.

[John83]

Cops on the beat are widely recognised - particularly by the police themselves - as not being a significant source of crime-busting. Without gettign all Dvaid Brent, that is a fact.
Is it? I'm not talking about having a cop on every corner. I'm talking about the police responding to reports of crime. The force is undermanned as it stands, and that impacts on their ability to deal with "petty" crime.


...The Police have much bigger priorities than graffiti-painters, petty-vandals and occupational shop-lifters. And anyways - as soon as a beat Police officer aprehends someone, they then have to spend the next few hours off the streets tied-up in the paper work to process that petty criminal.
Hence, they need more staff. Are you suggesting that we ignore those crimes? That would make them effectively legal. Where's your car parked?