Eircom League clubs asked for proposals on structure...

[holidaysong]

From: BreakingNews.ie (http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/10/28/story227663.html)

Eircom League clubs asked for proposals on structure
28/10/2005 - 13:37:56

The 22 eircom League clubs have been invited to make proposals for the formation of next season's League.

The League will run from March 10 until the first week in December with a two-week summer break during the World Cup.

Last season, the clubs returned to a 12-team Premier Division after a three season experiment with a 10-team top flight though proposals to increase the number of matches to 44 were dismissed.

This season, a number of clubs are already proposing a 22-team top flight with no First Division while others favour a 16-team Premier Division.

A number of other clubs are in favour of implementing a 10-team top flight in line with the Genesis Report.

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What kind of messing around is this? Surely they have already sorted out the league format for next year with it very clear who will be relegated and promoted?

[NY Hoop]

It appears not:rolleyes:

The suggestion of a 22 one team league is appalling. 10 team premier is the only way to go.

The 2 week break for the World Cup is fair enough I suppose though the league should start the first weekend of March to finish earlier.


KOH

[holidaysong]

It appears not:rolleyes:

The suggestion of a 22 one team league is appalling. 10 team premier is the only way to go.

KOH

But surely they can't just decide with a few weeks left that two extra teams will be relegated to make up a 10 team premier! :mad: Can they...? :eek:

[Roo69]

It appears not:rolleyes:

The suggestion of a 22 one team league is appalling. 10 team premier is the only way to go.

The 2 week break for the World Cup is fair enough I suppose though the league should start the first weekend of March to finish earlier.


KOH

Personally i think this season has been far better than last season, better quality football as well. I'd like to see it stay as a 12 team league, or even a 16 team league with the 1st expanded.

Every county should be able to produce at least 1 club good enough in the league of ireland, something along the lines of the gaa

[NY Hoop]

The 12 team doesn't work. Having more home than away games and vice versa is ridiculous.

This league cannot afford to being in more teams. As it is we are struggling for fans. By all means bring in more teams but stick them in the U21 league.

A 16 team premier is a non runner as well cos the quality wont be there.


KOH

[Mr A]

Back when the league was at it's strongest and much of the international team played in it the top division had 16 teams, so I don't think the argument that the quality isn't there cuts any ice at all. In any case the major dividing line in terms of quality in Irish football is between the top three and the rest rather than between the two divisions.

I don't see how they could possibly expand the league enough in time for next season to have a 16 team premier though- two new teams would be hard enough to find without looking for four.

[mypost]

The 12 team doesn't work. Having more home than away games and vice versa is ridiculous.

The 12-team league has been a great success. The 10-team system, was a disaster from a fixture and attendance point of view.

The FAI actually got something right with the current system for a change. :) Leave it alone.

[thejollyrodger]

I think 10 teams is the optimum for the development of the league but from the clubs and fans point of view it smacks of playing the same teams week in week out.

[noby]

Lads, peoples preferences: 10 team league, 12 team league etc. has been done to death already.
The issue here is that we're a month from the end of the season, and they're only starting to decide what to do next season. Surely any proposed major changes (e.g. number of prem teams) should be on a 2 year phased in plan or something.
Ir just sounds so typical of this league/the FAI: "Right lads, that's this season out of the way, now what will we do next year?"

The two week break is a good idea alright. I could see it being kept on for non-world cup years.

[NY Hoop]

The 12-team league has been a great success. The 10-team system, was a disaster from a fixture and attendance point of view.

The FAI actually got something right with the current system for a change. :) Leave it alone.

I would love to be able to start drinking this early in the day as you must do!

How was it a disaster? From an attendance point of view there has been no significant increase or decrease. From a fixture point of view the 12 team is a fiasco. You must be blind not to see that. With a 10 team league at least you know you have 2 home and 2 away games against every team.

The only criteria for having the 10 team league really is the playing standard. When it was there it was more competitive.

Galway Harps: "Back when the league was at it's strongest and much of the international team played in it the top division had 16 teams, so I don't think the argument that the quality isn't there cuts any ice at all. "

Yeah back then. Those days are gone and besides there was no choice back then cos there was only 16 teams in the entire league! It does cut ice NOW because after the first round of games you would be left with about 5 teams completely cut off from the rest. How is that competitive?

KOH

[mypost]

How was it a disaster? From an attendance point of view there has been no significant increase or decrease.

Fans got sick of the sight of each other every season, with at least 4 games to play against each other, and in some cases, 7 times a season. Too many games were postponed/re-scheduled for all kinds of reasons, which led to a massive backlog at the end of the season, teams regularly facing each other in the same week, and an entire round of fixtures crammed in a month. Such congestion only harms the league, and there is less of that madness now.


With a 10 team league at least you know you have 2 home and 2 away games against every team.

A 10-team league never worked. The Scots tried it several times, but are now back to a 12-team league, as the other alternative failed miserably.

[Schumi]

The ten team league had too few away trips for my liking.

We should stick with 12, there's no point in changing every couple of seasons.

[Bald Student]

I like the current system of switching between ten and twelve every few seasons. It keeps things interesting.

[NY Hoop]

Fans got sick of the sight of each other every season, with at least 4 games to play against each other, and in some cases, 7 times a season. Too many games were postponed/re-scheduled for all kinds of reasons, which led to a massive backlog at the end of the season, teams regularly facing each other in the same week, and an entire round of fixtures crammed in a month. Such congestion only harms the league, and there is less of that madness now.

A 10-team league never worked. The Scots tried it several times, but are now back to a 12-team league, as the other alternative failed miserably.

Agree it should'nt be changed every few seasons. That's why the 3 year experiment was wrong. Should have been for a minimum of 5 years.

We play each other 3 times as is. What with the Cup and League Cup what it's hardly going to make much difference playing each other another time. The season you're referring to was 2003 when they scheduled about 8 games in a month whcih was madness. You cannot dismiss it because of the incompetence of the league. A 10 team would work and if done right can be a success.

You cant compare our league to the scots'. Actually they divide up their season anyway after the new year into a bottom six top six cos 44 games was too much.

KOH

[Jerry The Saint]

they divide up their season anyway after the new year into a bottom six top six


Ooh, that sounds like fun, let's do that! Also, we should go back to awarding 4 points for an away win and 1 point for a home draw and 7 points for a home win during a lunar eclipse (or something). :D

I never thought I'd say this but, as a Pats fan, a 22-team or 16-team Premier Division is starting to look very desirable!



10 team premier is the only way to go.


As a hoop, are you sure you want to be suggesting this for next season :confused: Do you know something we don't? :)

[mypost]

We play each other 3 times as is. What with the Cup and League Cup what it's hardly going to make much difference playing each other another time.

Losing 1 of the 3 games, is now much more important than losing 1 of the 4 games as before.


The season you're referring to was 2003 when they scheduled about 8 games in a month whcih was madness. You cannot dismiss it because of the incompetence of the league.

But it only happened because of the 4-round system. If there was the current system, such fixture chaos would have been avoided. Last season, Longford had 6 games to play with 3 weeks left. That hasn't happened this season.

We played Longford and Pats 6 times last season. This season, we played them only 3 times. Big difference, as the games assume greater importance with less meetings between the sides.


You cant compare our league to the scots'. Actually they divide up their season anyway after the new year into a bottom six top six cos 44 games was too much.

They split their league into top/bottom 6 after 31 games. As there are only 5 more games left to play, teams will play more home than away games in the season, and vice versa, like over here.

[NY Hoop]

Obviously you didnt read my previous post. If the 10 team league was scheduled properly you would not have fixture congestion at the end of the season.

We played Longford 6 times last season but 2 of them were in the Cup and we played Pats 4 times not 6.

Bottom line is that the 10 team league is only 3 games more.

And no it would be preferable not to have the 10 team league in place til 2007!!


KOH

[mypost]

Obviously you didnt read my previous post. If the 10 team league was scheduled properly you would not have fixture congestion at the end of the season.

We played Longford 6 times last season but 2 of them were in the Cup and we played Pats 4 times not 6.

We played Pats 6 times in 2003, 4 league, and 1 in the FAI/League Cup.
Last year, we played Longford 6 times, 4 league, and 2 in FAI Cup, including 3 times in 3 weeks.

Did you enjoy playing Home Farm 4 times? Or UCD? Or having to make 3 trips to Cork in a season?? Well I didn't. The current system is the only way the league can function. The 10-team league was like the top/bottom 6 experiment, i.e. an unqualified disaster.

[NY Hoop]

We played Pats 6 times in 2003, 4 league, and 1 in the FAI/League Cup.
Last year, we played Longford 6 times, 4 league, and 2 in FAI Cup, including 3 times in 3 weeks.

Did you enjoy playing Home Farm 4 times? Or UCD? Or having to make 3 trips to Cork in a season?? Well I didn't. The current system is the only way the league can function. The 10-team league was like the top/bottom 6 experiment, i.e. an unqualified disaster.

You should make it clearer then. You said we played Pats 6 times last season. The only reason we played in cork 3 times was because of that infamous "home" game. You are picking out one off examples to justify your argument. Is playing every team away twice such a hardship? The current sytem is a joke, a proven failure as you shouldn't have more home than away games and vice versa. The fact that the clubs voted to go back to it shows their lack of vision.


KOH

[CollegeTillIDie]

NYHoop

I am with Mypost on this one. He is making points I made on this very issue in another thread. 4 times against the same team in the League does not work. It is boring. If you factor in League Cup and FAI Cup you can end up playing the same team 6 if not 7 times ( including F.A.I. Cup replay). Some fans only went to one of the home games in the League during 2003 avoiding the second time around at home. Several clubs supporters noticed this phenomenon.

[NY Hoop]

NYHoop

I am with Mypost on this one. He is making points I made on this very issue in another thread. 4 times against the same team does not work. Some fans only go to one of the home games.

Some fans dont go at all! The main point here is that there is no other solution unless the All Ireland League happens soon. There is simply not the quality around for a 16 team league, the current system is a joke. What other league plays each other 3 times?!

The genesis report could have been written by any sane EL fan but they were right when they said we need a top tier of 10 teams.


KOH

[mypost]

Is playing every team away twice such a hardship?

Yes. It is. I don't think the boss, and players would be too happy of having to travel to Cork, and Waterford twice. Regarding those teams this year, we got lucky, and only had to go down to them once. :) We also only played in Tolka once. Last year we played there 4 times, the first and last match of the season, and on successive weeks halfway through. Also 36 games is too much to ask of part-time clubs, and that's before you count the other competitions, and friendlies.


The current sytem is a joke, a proven failure as you shouldn't have more home than away games and vice versa.

We had a perfectly good system that worked in this country for 15 years, until the bigger clubs, Rovers included, wanted to play each other every couple of weeks. The fans voted with their feet, and the experiment failed. The league is too small to have any more or less than 12 clubs in the division, and on a practical level, you simply can't have a 44-game season in this country.


What other league plays each other 3 times?

Denmark.

[NY Hoop]

Yes but we're in Cork twice next year. Again you're twisting it. We did play in tolka 4 times last year because CHF were playing there.

36 games is too many for part time clubs? Are you joking?? It's 3 extra games and half of the premier clubs are full time now anyway.

It's a myth to say, just because you play each other 4 times, you play the same team "every few weeks". Last year we played boez in April, June, August and November. Hardly "every few weeks".

"The fans voted with their feet". Explain that. What evidence have you that crowds were down significantly overall? And no anecdotal evidence such as "several supporters said it to me".

Who said anything about 44 games??

KOH

[mypost]

Yes but we're in Cork twice next year.

Are we?? :confused: Next season's fixture list is not automatically reversed from this season. We may still have to only go down there once. We will only know who plays who, where, and when, when it comes out in late February.


We did play in tolka 4 times last year because CHF were playing there.

If there were 12 teams last season, and 3 rounds, we may only have had to go there twice, instead of a mandatory 4 times.


36 games is too many for part time clubs? Are you joking?? It's 3 extra games and half of the premier clubs are full time now anyway.

There are 5 full-time clubs, and 17 part-time clubs in the league. It's unfair to expect PT players to have to get time off work every time, to play re-arranged games. Fans can't get every Monday, and Tuesday off work to go up to Derry/Dublin/down to Cork, to attend re-arranged games, cos' the fixture set-up (36 games) is crap.


It's a myth to say, just because you play each other 4 times, you play the same team "every few weeks". Last year we played boez in April, June, August and November. Hardly "every few weeks".

It's not just Bohs. It's Shels, Pats, Cork, and Derry as well. That's without playing Longford 3 times in 3 weeks. It's very boring to see the same teams play each other every few weeks.

[chippie0001]

Sorry but how can they even think of changing the format to 10 teams? Thats not possible now as think of what would happen to the 2 teams that finish second and third last, would they go down? I think if they are looking for changes it would have to be for the season after next.

[NY Hoop]

Are we?? :confused: Next season's fixture list is not automatically reversed from this season. We may still have to only go down there once. We will only know who plays who, where, and when, when it comes out in late February.

If there were 12 teams last season, and 3 rounds, we may only have had to go there twice, instead of a mandatory 4 times.

There are 5 full-time clubs, and 17 part-time clubs in the league. It's unfair to expect PT players to have to get time off work every time, to play re-arranged games. Fans can't get every Monday, and Tuesday off work to go up to Derry/Dublin/down to Cork, to attend re-arranged games, cos' the fixture set-up (36 games) is crap.

It's not just Bohs. It's Shels, Pats, Cork, and Derry as well. That's without playing Longford 3 times in 3 weeks. It's very boring to see the same teams play each other every few weeks.

Yet again you are obviously not reading my points. Generally the fixtures are reversed and I would be surprised if next season they are not simply because some clubs would be upset at going to Derry or Cork twice again.

When there is a 10 team league and you play each other 4 times you go away twice not "the mandatory 4 times".

Who said anything about re-arranged games? Or games on mondays or tuesdays? As I've pointed out already IF the league fixtures were set out properly there would be no need for midweek games.

Finally I have already pointed out the "every few weeks" myth. Longford 3 times in as many weeks was because of the Cup:rolleyes:


KOH

[pete]

It is stupid to use any other country as reason for our league format.

Better quality in 10 team league, attendances no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 4 times instead of 3.

Why oh why the constant tinkering of the league format? Do the clubs/league/FAI think that there is a magic number of teams that will suddely cure all the leagues problems???

:rolleyes:

[mypost]

Here we go, Round 6: :rolleyes:


Generally the fixtures are reversed and I would be surprised if next season they are not simply because some clubs would be upset at going to Derry or Cork twice again.

Some of the fixtures will be reversed, some won't. It's lucky dip. Just because we played in Cork once this year, does not necessarily mean that we are there twice next year. Likewise, playing in Derry twice this year, does not automatically mean that they will play in Santry twice next year either, and so on down the line. While some fixtures will be reversed, it will not happen in every case. All will be decided in February.


When there is a 10 team league and you play each other 4 times you go away twice not "the mandatory 4 times".

I'll try to make it clearer again. Shels and Home Farm shared the same ground last year. Because of the 10-team system, we had to go to Tolka 4 times.

If they shared the same ground this season with both clubs playing in the same division, we may have had to play them at home twice, and away once, under the current system, meaning two less visits to Tolka. As it turned out, because of the current set-up, we only had to go there once. Under the old set-up, we would have had to go there 4 times.


Who said anything about re-arranged games? Or games on mondays or tuesdays? As I've pointed out already IF the league fixtures were set out properly there would be no need for midweek games.

Because of the 4-round of games brought about by the 10-team league, a very high number of league games were cancelled. All those games had to be re-arranged in mid-week, which put extra demands on players, and away fans. With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 games yet to be played. That highlights the benefits of playing teams less often, with less fixture congestion.

Clearer now?

[NY Hoop]

The fixtures will more than likely be reversed.

So what if we had to go to tolka 4 times. Hardly a long distance. Actually as it turned we only had to go there once this year cos CHF got relegated.

It wasnt because of the structure of the 10 team league that fixtures were cancelled:rolleyes:

AGAIN if the 36 games were properly done out at the start of the season there would be no need for midweek fixtures. I cannot make that any clearer.

BTW we have 4 fixtures left.

Clearer now?


KOH

[pineapple stu]

Some of the fixtures will be reversed, some won't. It's lucky dip. Just because we played in Cork once this year, does not necessarily mean that we are there twice next year. Likewise, playing in Derry twice this year, does not automatically mean that they will play in Santry twice next year either, and so on down the line. While some fixtures will be reversed, it will not happen in every case.
Not true at all, I'm afraid. I looked at UCD's fixtures over the last ten seasons when some Cork fan was crying about a conspiracy when the 2005 fixtures came out. The fixtures were reversed every single time with one or two exceptions. One or two exceptions over ten seasons doesn't constitute a lucky dip, as far as I'm concerned.


Better quality in 10 team league, attendances no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 4 times instead of 3.
More chances of clubs developing in 12-team league, without being condemned to the First Division. Attendaces no difference between 10 or 12 teams. Only downside of 10 team is playing each team 3 times instead of 4.

Very much personal preference which one you go for, I think. I do agree that it's stupid to be changing every other year though.

[Student Mullet]

It makes sence to have 12 in the premier instead of the first as both ends of the premier are interesting. The top teams are in contention for europe untill very near the end and the bottom clubs are not usually safe or relegated untill near the end aswell. There is very little mid table.

In the first there are much fewer interesting league places. With no relegation and re-election a mere formality it makes sence for the first division to be smaller than the premier because it leaves fewer clubs with nothing to play for in the second half of the season.

[mypost]

AGAIN if the 36 games were properly done out at the start of the season there would be no need for midweek fixtures. I cannot make that any clearer.

The league started and finished on the same weekend last year, as this year, and with 3 games left, (for most clubs) there are 2 re-scheduled games yet to be played. At the same stage last year, there were more than 10 re-arranged games. The league fixture list should allow for postponements due to European games, underage call-ups, cup games, cup replays, etc, but doesn't. Because 36 games needed to be squashed in somewhere, the 10-team league caused a multiple fixture pile-up. With less games to play this year, that has been largely avoided this season.


BTW we have 4 fixtures left.

I think that obvious fact was recognised by:


With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 (re arranged) games yet to be played.


Not true at all, I'm afraid. I looked at UCD's fixtures over the last ten seasons when some Cork fan was crying about a conspiracy when the 2005 fixtures came out. The fixtures were reversed every single time with one or two exceptions. One or two exceptions over ten seasons doesn't constitute a lucky dip, as far as I'm concerned.

You're basing that on one club's fixture list. While 60, perhaps 70% of all fixtures next season will have been reversed from this year, we won't know exactly how many there will be, and I guarantee you that there will be repeats next year, of this season's fixtures. Nobody knows exactly how many times, or when, a side will play at home or away to a, b, or c, next season, until the list comes out in February.

[pete]

I don't necessaryily agree with 12 team Premier but IMo it should stay like that for another 2 years. Idiotic to be changing every season. How can clubs plan for season ticket prices or budgets if structure not decided year in advance?

[thomas]

The good point on the dates here is that St. Patricks day is taken in. This is a "stay home" weekend so should allow the club to stage well attended games. The bad point is that the season runs until December. They really should kick off on March 3rd to avoid playing in december as it makes a mockery of "summer" football.
The break for the worldcup might be good, or might be bad. Financally it means cash strapped clubs may have to go up to 5 weeks without income from a home game. It also means clubs lose out on the football buzz, imo its a great opportunity to get punters into club bars for matches on the tele and then head out to watch their team (or, equally good, stay drinking in the bar).

As for the following season, a 16 team division would be very weak at the bottom but with no threat of relegation for mediocre teams. It may also struggle to get License compliant clubs. It would be ideal for an all ireland league though.
The reality is that a 10 team division is best for raising the standard of football, 12 teams is too comfortable for a lot of clubs that are on the brink. Crowd wise its no better or worse than a 12 team division. Even as a Rovers fan I would say a ten team premier is ideal until we move on to an all ireland league with 16 teams.

[A face]

I haven't read this thread but i think we should leave things the way they are until there are extra teams to add to the league, i.e. 16 team premier, 12 team first or something like that !!

[pineapple stu]

You're basing that on one club's fixture list.
So work it out for others. Present some evidence (and not playing in Tolka four times because Home Farm happened to play there) to the contrary. The fixtures, with one or two exceptions, alternate. It's not a conspiracy. There's a definite pattern.

[Stevo Da Gull]

I dont think that making the league smaller is an attractive option. Clubs playing each other 4 times a season really destroyed derby matches. 12,14 or 16 team premier for me.

[NY Hoop]

[QUOTE=mypost]The league started and finished on the same weekend last year, as this year, and with 3 games left, (for most clubs) there are 2 re-scheduled games yet to be played. At the same stage last year, there were more than 10 re-arranged games. The league fixture list should allow for postponements due to European games, underage call-ups, cup games, cup replays, etc, but doesn't. Because 36 games needed to be squashed in somewhere, the 10-team league caused a multiple fixture pile-up. With less games to play this year, that has been largely avoided this season.

But as I have pointed out umpteenth times if the league was scheduled properly it can work. Start the season the first weekend of March, use the bank holidays and it can finish the end of october.

I think that obvious fact was recognised by:

Eh your exact quote was: "With 3 weeks remaining this season, there are just 2 games yet to be played. " But good of you to edit it:rolleyes:

Thomas hits the nail on the head: "The reality is that a 10 team division is best for raising the standard of football" and that is the primary reason it should be a 10 team premier.

Bringing more teams into the league is a definite no no and increasing the size of the premier will weaken it. Start the 2007 season with a 10 team premier and stick with it. The chopping and changing has to cease.

KOH

[pete]

I think the fixtures have worked well this season as very few if any midweek games so more room for postponements later in the season. Also rearranged games weere scheduled quickly & not left for months like last season. I think its important to avoid midweek games in the least 4-6 weeks to allow for rearranged games cos of cup or weather.

[thomas]

I've re read the report and frankly the need to promote matches as "events" and the 10 team league proposal as favoured by genesis or 12 team premier do not sit well.

One option they skimmed over is a 16 team league but obviously that would leave the first division at 6 teams. However genesis propose 8 regional teams have access to the second tier but dont apply it to the 16 team league example.

A 30 game premier division would bring back the once off nature of each game even if it initially meant a few crapper team in it.
The 26 game first division is also ideal for a part time / amateur structure. It could easily be extended to include 2 more teams if the clubs felt they needed more revenue and that is just 2 more than Genesis recommend anyway.

Another issue is the UEFA License requirements and the need for all premier clubs to have premier licenses. If the clubs are serious the 16 team premier and 16 team first division could be a runner. However if they dont bother it looks like we will have a 10 team premier however much we moan.

[Mr A]

Ah, but would those 10 be the same as the current top 10? I think not......

[CollegeTillIDie]

I've re read the report and frankly the need to promote matches as "events" and the 10 team league proposal as favoured by genesis or 12 team premier do not sit well.

One option they skimmed over is a 16 team league but obviously that would leave the first division at 6 teams. However genesis propose 8 regional teams have access to the second tier but dont apply it to the 16 team league example.

A 30 game premier division would bring back the once off nature of each game even if it initially meant a few crapper team in it.
The 26 game first division is also ideal for a part time / amateur structure. It could easily be extended to include 2 more teams if the clubs felt they needed more revenue and that is just 2 more than Genesis recommend anyway.

Another issue is the UEFA License requirements and the need for all premier clubs to have premier licenses. If the clubs are serious the 16 team premier and 16 team first division could be a runner. However if they dont bother it looks like we will have a 10 team premier however much we moan.

Well said, in fact if they implement the Licencing requirement strictly in 2006 we could be left with one 16 team Division !

[A face]

Well said, in fact if they implement the Licencing requirement strictly in 2006 we could be left with one 16 team Division !

How can clubs pay players wages with only 30 games .... its alright if you have good cup runs and Europe ... but if you dont ??

[thomas]

How can clubs pay players wages with only 30 games .... its alright if you have good cup runs and Europe ... but if you dont ??

The point about Genesis is to implement radical change that will make the league attractive as a spectacle. That means having 15 games that are events rather than the current 3 rounds of fixtures or the 4 that accompany a ten team league.
The FAI are told in the report to market the league properly and they have proved a willingness to tdo that with the Setanta cup which has totally showed up the leagues inept marketing performance/ budget.

Addressing your point directly, 15 well attended games is a lot better than 16, 17 or 18 **** poorly attended games. It also makes the season more realistic for part-time clubs (like Rovers, Pats etc.) and will avoid fixture congestion that usually follows European competition and the Setanta cup.

A good example of the fallacy of needing extra games to be professional is Sweden where most of the clubs are full time yet each team only has 13 home league games as the top tier consists of 14 teams.