View Full Version : Unions - The Root Of All Evil?
Peadar
11/10/2005, 11:27 AM
After hearing the news that Security staff at Dublin Airport are considering all-out strike action as part of a dispute over the hiring of part-time workers, I think it's fair to say tha Unions are more trouble than they're worth.
They hold the country to ransom and take advantage of their position to bully their employers. I think we should make it illegal to cause widespread disruption by industrial action. If I have a dispute with my boss, it's between him and I. Our customers should never be aware of it.
Be glad you have a cushy job and stop trying to deny others the chance to work a few hours a week.
Totally agree. No place for unions in todays Ireland. We have minimum wage & employment law that protects workers now. The state would be better off employing more staff to police employment law than to pander to unions.
With social partnership these unions have a lot more power than elected representatives in the Dail which is plain wrong.
Thankfully public sympathy for unions has decreased a lot of recent years. Very little support for unions that are just protecting their own cushy jobs.
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 11:55 AM
We have minimum wage & employment law that protects workers now.Which came about because of the...?
Peadar
11/10/2005, 11:56 AM
Which came about because of the...?
European Union?
Dodge
11/10/2005, 11:58 AM
European Union?
:p :p
joeSoap
11/10/2005, 11:59 AM
They have good points and bad points....they're not for me though. I remember in the mid-seventies my dad lost his job when a union closed down a 1500 strong workforce in Ferenka, a factory in Limerick. That led to temporary rations in the house, and also no new football boots for me that Christmas...:mad: :( :D
WeAreRovers
11/10/2005, 12:06 PM
I sense another thouroughly depressing thread coming up - along the lines of the anti-Rossport 5 thread which was full of baloney about the rule of law. A rule of law that has never bothered the likes of Shell. And now it's the unions turn. :rolleyes:
Unions have their faults but at the very least they are a neccessary evil. I take it Pete and Peader have no idea of working conditions at Dublin Airport. Contracting jobs out means less pay, worse conditions, no job-security. And all of this so a semi-state company can build a new terminal on our behalf. :confused:
I despair of the inate conservatism of our Celtic Tiger generation. And I thought young people were supposed to have a sense of fairness and justice that's has largely been beaten out of older people.
Peadar's line about unions "bullying employers" would count as brilliant satire if it wasn't so bleeding depressing.
KOH
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 12:21 PM
Spotted Dodge. ;)
Peadar
11/10/2005, 12:48 PM
I take it Pete and Peader have no idea of working conditions at Dublin Airport.
You're the one who seems to have no idea.
They're moaning that their employer is hiring part time staff to cover additional demands and that they should be doing overtime instead of hiring more staff. Greed in its purest form!
I was with a union in one of my earliest jobs and in a election we were given a form and told who to vote for. None of us knew who the people were but no one rocked the boat by questioning it.
The Unions have run their course, disband them!
A face
11/10/2005, 1:00 PM
They're moaning that their employer is hiring part time staff to cover additional demands and that they should be doing overtime instead of hiring more staff. Greed in its purest form
This is the same as whats happening at An Post .... the staff want to continue overtime and the company want to cut it out. Overtime is a short term measure, hiring staff according to the workload should be done thing. If there are more job available to the workforce, why should a small few be allowed to curb this.
Fire the lot of them i say .... bástards on their go slow can stop for all i care !!
If the working conditions are so bad in Dublin Airport why don't the employees leave their jobs? If they are skilled workers should be able to move into different industry & if unskilled there are more jobs for that sector than we can fiull currently.
If have seen unions picket factories because construction workers from outside have come in to do the extra work required. The construction workers didn't get paid if didn't go to work but did the union workers care?
I've seen unions refuse to represent part-timer workers in Quninnsworth dispite taking their subs off them every week. The workers had to picket to get the unions to represent them.
I've done summer work where i couldn't work in a factory area unless i joined the union.
I could go on...
Troy.McClure
11/10/2005, 2:06 PM
The title of this thread is both wrong and misleading, everyone knows that women are the root of evil:
Women require time and money, so
Women = time x money
We know that "time is money" so
time = money.
Using the first formula,
Women = money x money, so
Women = money squared
As "Money is the root of all evil"
Women = Evil.
Simple :)
WeAreRovers
11/10/2005, 2:07 PM
I could go on...
There's no need, your PD membership card is in the post. ;)
KOH
Peadar
11/10/2005, 2:13 PM
your PD membership card is in the post. ;)
Pete tore up his Pat Dolan membership card a long time ago. :D
Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
Agency workers get paid less - the agency make the money. FACT
Hopefully this is the last national agreement and the unions won't have their hands tied so much in the future.
IBEC, Pete and Peader would have everyone (presumably even themselves) replaced by people paid way below the minimum wage, a la Irish Ferries.
Non-union members should be excluded from all wage agreements, and any other benefits gained by the unions. If they don't want to be part of a collective, I've no problem - once they're excluded from all aspects.
Peadar
11/10/2005, 2:27 PM
Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
In the short term, perhaps but the public sector is full of wasters who can't do a decent days work without expecting a week off in return and can't be fired. The public sector are right up there with the Unions for being more trouble than they're worth...
Talk about mass generalisations...
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 2:47 PM
It's all about the masses though Dodge! :D
(I agree though. Horrendous stereotyping and pigeonholing from the very first post.)
Peadar
11/10/2005, 2:50 PM
(I agree though. Horrendous stereotyping and pigeonholing from the very first post.)
It's done on almost every post.
Things are much easier when you organise stuff into groups.
In the short term, perhaps but the public sector is full of wasters who can't do a decent days work without expecting a week off in return and can't be fired. The public sector are right up there with the Unions for being more trouble than they're worth...
Peadar, I presume you and the other union bashers are speaking tongue in cheek? Disband the unions? The public sector being full of wasters ? Is this the kind of thinking that modern Ireland is producing - A land of help yourself and fcuk everyone else
Peadar
11/10/2005, 3:24 PM
A land of help yourself and fcuk everyone else
I think the Union members going on strike because their employer wants to hire extra staff is a classic example of helping themselves and fúcking everyone else.
I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on. :rolleyes:
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 3:37 PM
It's done on almost every post.
Things are much easier when you organise stuff into groups.I'm not sure I'm following you Peadar. You want I should organise the right-wing god-bothering nutjobs and the left-wing treehugging queers into two different forums or something? Or maybe we could try this: Quit stereotyping, labelling and pigeonholing, and debate rationally? Nah, it'll never work.
(For the record, I've never been a member of a union. I admit they have their problems, however in general I believe we are better off with them, than without. See the way I didn't pigeonhole anyone there Peadar? You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.
No offense.)
adam
I think the Union members going on strike because their employer wants to hire extra staff is a classic example of helping themselves and fúcking everyone else.
I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on. :rolleyes:
Actually yes. I do not have a god given right to travel. My travelling arrangements are not more important than the working rights of hundreds of workers who have decided to vote with their feet and use the only right they have when faced with management greed - withdraw their labour. Don't know the ins and outs of the Dublin airport case. If truth be told, I'm not up to date with the current state of Industrial relations in Ireland. My travelling arrangements were actually affected by the recent Gate Gourmet dispute at Heathrow Airport - annoying? Yes. As annoying as being told you were going to lose your job that you'd had for many years, because a greedy company wants to replace you with cheap Eastern European labour? - I don't think so.
Believe it or not, people don't like going on strike. You don't get paid you know:rolleyes:
Peadar
11/10/2005, 3:42 PM
You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.
I was showing total disregard and utter contempt for them, just like they do when they cause large scale disruption with their industrial action, in a bid to prevent others from gaining employment.
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 3:45 PM
That's right Peadar, "they" are out to get you. Boogah-boogah! :rolleyes:
Peadar
11/10/2005, 4:00 PM
That's right Peadar, "they" are out to get you.
Well there's another reason to despise them. Hadn't even considered that.
Down with the Unions of Evil!
For the record I don't agree with what Irish Ferries are doing as it is illegal to replace make someone redundent unless there is no job for them. AFAIK the Irish Ferries workers are getting compensated a lot & under irish law they could refuse to accept argue that their job still exists.
However reality is that in that scenario Irish ferries would fold & make workers redundent & then start new company with new workers.
I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.
Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?
dahamsta
11/10/2005, 6:26 PM
Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?Tempted as I am to quote Monty Python...
Most of these (http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=unions+%22done+for+me%22&meta=) are US-centric, but there should be enough there to get you started.
adam
I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.
Eh, pete the whole point of unions is for them to serve their members and reflect their wishes. It's not their job to serve the public, particularly those who want to be treated as an individual and don't care about fellow workers.
Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?
How about your employment rights, the wage increases under the various partnership agreements, the state of the economy that those various agreements have helped create, just for starters?
I'd laugh if all you pro union heads got stuck in Dublin airport during their strike. I'm sure you'd be out cheering them on. :rolleyes:
It would be a pain, but I'd be throwing money in the bucket. Someone has to stand up to employers, and it's good to see some miltancy back in the unions. As IBEC have shown their true colours by supporting Irish Ferries I hope to see more and more action taken by unions against employers (including the state) that want to use immigrants as slave labour rather than give them proper employment conditions at irish rates of pay.
I am not a member of a union so they have no benefit to me so why should I supprt them. I'm sure they gained workers rights 50 years ago but thats hardly relevant now. Is it right that I should be forced to join a union if I want to work for some companies? Surely thats as wrong as stopping someone from joining union?
IMO unions have no right as unelected people to negotiate public pay agreements with the government. When they negotiated them I wasn't part of a union so saw no pay increases - had freeze for 3 years as company was losing money. Thats reality though so i stuck it out to get my experience...
In the words of Horace Andy...Money money money money is the root of all evil
John83
12/10/2005, 10:28 AM
...See the way I didn't pigeonhole anyone there Peadar? You should try it sometime. Then you won't sound like a bigoted Ulster-Says-No rant-factory like Ian Paisley.
Yeah Peader, get back into your giant Paisley-like, bigoted, Ulster-Says-No rant-factory-shaped pigeonhole. :o
The unions have their purpose, but regularly excede it. That excess is what drives people off them.
I still haven't seen anyone argue Macy's statements:
Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
Agency workers get paid less - the agency make the money. FACT
IMO unions have no right as unelected people to negotiate public pay agreements with the government.
Who should then? Maybe all the non-union members could form a collective to negotiate them.....
Don't agree with closed shops, but that's down the company not the union. You're pointing your anger at the wrong people blaming that on the union.
I totally support non-union members not getting union negotiated pay increases and terms and conditions.
Pete - the unions continue to get all workers, whether members or not, increased employment protection and rights. You're deluded if you think the Government and IBEC (well they're one and the same imo, particularly one party which is literally in bed with them) would just be handing these over without union pressure. Only in your thatcherite world are unions are an irrelevance.
And that's before we get down to individual cases of bullying, wrongful dismissal, sexual harassment etc etc.
Agency workers cost the public service more money than staff. FACT
Agency workers get paid less - the agency make the money. FACT
How do we know that?
Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.
dahamsta
12/10/2005, 11:07 AM
I am not a member of a union so they have no benefit to me so why should I supprt them.That's a very naive, selfish, and dangerous way to think about it. You think black people that weren't members of the NAACP should still sit in the back of the bus?
John83, what I did there is an analogy (http://www.answers.com/analogy&r=67). Pigeonholing is categorising (http://www.answers.com/pigeonhole&r=67). Witticisms are much funnier when you get them right.
adam
I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.
:confused:
WeAreRovers
12/10/2005, 11:12 AM
How do we know that?
Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.
To answer your questions in relation to the public service organisation in which I work -
How do we know that? In my office agency staff cost the organisation almost TWICE what permanent staff cost.
Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Lots of reasons - An embargo on full-time recruitment means that line-managers have to find short-term solutions ie. expensive agency staff. Also, line-managers don't plan ahead and when they're stuck they hire temporary staff.
Why can't the staff do it themselves? We can and we can do it better than temps. In fact we're the ones who train in the temps, losing valuable time ourselves when the temp will be gone in a month and we'll have to do it all over again.
None of these ridiculous situations are anything to do with unions and all to do with bad management. But hey, unions are the root of all evil. :rolleyes:
KOH
Dodge
12/10/2005, 11:17 AM
How do we know that?
Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.
Civil Service doesn't oursource that much work tbh pete. Only technical stuff. No point in getting an 18 year old lad do a job that needs 10 years experience to do... And they don't employ ouside PR companies either. Individual politicians bring their spin doctors with them from Dept. to Dept. Although they may be paid from government funds that’s about as far they go in relation to the (hugely underpaid ;) ) civil service
Lim till i die
12/10/2005, 11:33 AM
I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.
:confused:
:eek: Oh my God I can't believe there are real Living people in this country thinking like this (The undead of the "Progressive" Democrat Facist Party don't count)
Resign and do what pete, pray tell? Swan into another job? Can't get another job? Oh well. Mammy and Daddy and the two kids will just have to starve for the winter but thats OK cos its the free market folks.
One of the main reasons for problems in Modern day Ireland IMO is that the country never experienced a right-left divide which brought about such a strong left wing and unions in many parts of mainland Europe. The main problems which I have with unions in this country up to now is that they became infested by the stuffed shirts and are no way near militant enough, if one is finally getting up off it's collective ar$e and doing something for its members I say hear,hear and may others follow suit.
Take many of the people working in the slave factories of the US multi-nationals in this country (Who were brought in to compensate for this governments complete lack of anything resembling an indigenous economic plan) who earn the bare minimum wage, are not allowed unions and pretty much have to work whenever their told. Ask them what they think of the free (to exploitation) market? :rolleyes:
carrickharp
12/10/2005, 11:42 AM
Unions - The Root Of All Evil?
Yes they are a pain in the hole, in the construction branch (don't now about the rest) it is just mostly a money making racket some of our employees don't want to be members but the have to be to work on certain sites
rebs23
12/10/2005, 11:52 AM
Unions - Root of all evil? Certainly not. Have they outlived their usefulness? now that would be a better debate.
As someone who works in this area, all I can say is that some of the worst forms of bullying, intimidation and harassment I have witnessed in the workplace has been from militant trade unionists intent on getting their way.
Fortunately not all trade unions are like this but it does exist and it does put people off as well as the perception that this country is run by a government that cannot make decisions based on the democratic mandate they recieve from the people but have to stall and change decisions because of TU inflexibility and militancy.
Maybe it's human nature but in the areas they are strong the TU's tend to take the mcikey with their objections eg. Dublin Airport 2nd Terminal, Dart Trains etc, etc.
The Good Son
12/10/2005, 12:06 PM
I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.
Sure at the same time, if you have a problem with being forced to join a union in a job, then don't take up that job.
Pete, are you aware that the job market is not as rosy as it is made out to be.It's not that simple to quit your job and just walk into another. I work in a large manufacturing plant where you have a lot of engineers, teachers and various other trades working on a production line, because they don't have a choice, the work in their chosen trades is not there.
Where I work is unionised on the shop floor, my job is not unionised. There was a pay freeze world wide in the company a few years ago (despite the fact that huge profits were being made), the union here fought it and got what they were entitled to under the partnership agreement, I being non union got no pay rise for two years. I think the advantage of being in a union stands out clearly there. I also had the "pleasure" of being in the company's US plant (since closed, workers didn't get a cent in redundancy), which was not unionised, and the difference in conditions between the US plant and the Cork plant were unbelieveable. I can see why people have problems with unions, but in a factory environment, at the very least I know which I'd prefer.
Bottom line though, is Michael O Leary does not like unions so therefore they must be doing something right.
Lionel Ritchie
12/10/2005, 12:58 PM
I have put X next to candidates of the PDs, Labour and the Greens in the past -so I don't think i can be labelled right or left wing.
I believe it is a fundamental right of any worker in any job to align themselves with a trade union and be represented by them in the event of a dispute.
I also believe a union is the only effective protection an employee has from being exploited and commoditised.
However contrary to the belief of too many in this country -your union is not and should not be a stick with which to beat employers, blackmail government or hold the general public to ransom.
I also believe we have too many different unions representing people within similar strata of the economy here. The story used go you'd more unions in Bus Eireann than in all of Germany.
We need serious reform of our laws in this country concerning availability of overtime etc... It is not realistic or fair that -by way of example - a prison officer can more than double his salary with grotesque amounts of overtime when we've still a couple of hundred thousand unemployed here.
However contrary to the belief of too many in this country -your union is not and should not be a stick with which to beat employers, blackmail government or hold the general public to ransom.
They don't though. For all the disputes going on, there is rarely industrial action let alone strikes. The threat is usually used to make companies follow proper procedures and go to the labour commissioners and/or the labour court. There isn't many strikes - this thread wasn't even about an actual strike, just the threat of one.
How do we know that?
Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.
As WAR has said, there's an embargo on Public Servants. It's Government policy which is leading to the number of consultants and agency staff that are in the civil and public service.
Just for the sake of arguement, ring a recruitment agency to see how much they'd be charging for staff for a week. Then get someone else with the required skills to phone and see how much they would get. I garantee that the agency cost is higher than the wage would've been if they recruited them. The only winner is the agency, and whichever politicians are getting the backhanders.
I suspect that govt departments are not allowed hire extra fulltime staff because they would have to give a job for life then. Its common in many indutries to need short-term staff at busy periods.
I can't believe anyone thinks the multinational factories are slave houses - this whole economy is build on foreign investment. Without multinationals we'd be back to 20% unemployment.
While I know it can take some time in between jobs this country is close to full employment at 4% or so. As shown in Dublin Airport the unions are trying to increase unemployment.
I suspect that govt departments are not allowed hire extra fulltime staff because they would have to give a job for life then. Its common in many indutries to need short-term staff at busy periods.
They can give short term contracts and fixed term contracts. Doesn't have to be permenant pensionable (although if the jobs there, I don't see what the problem is). However, Government policy means they have to go to agencies. It makes no economic or financial sense - surely even you can see that?
As shown in Dublin Airport the unions are trying to increase unemployment.
I would suspect it's either fill them with their own staff, or give us the overtime. Not just go back to the days of casual employment and people hanging around waiting for someone to pick them up in the morning on the promise of a job. I'll wait until I see the union's side, rather than a potentially bias media report.
Marked Man
12/10/2005, 3:40 PM
After hearing the news that Security staff at Dublin Airport are considering all-out strike action as part of a dispute over the hiring of part-time workers, I think it's fair to say tha Unions are more trouble than they're worth.
They hold the country to ransom and take advantage of their position to bully their employers. I think we should make it illegal to cause widespread disruption by industrial action. If I have a dispute with my boss, it's between him and I. Our customers should never be aware of it.
Be glad you have a cushy job and stop trying to deny others the chance to work a few hours a week.
So much for the vaunted Peoples' Republic of Cork, then, eh?
For the record I don't agree with what Irish Ferries are doing as it is illegal to replace make someone redundent unless there is no job for them. AFAIK the Irish Ferries workers are getting compensated a lot & under irish law they could refuse to accept argue that their job still exists.
However reality is that in that scenario Irish ferries would fold & make workers redundent & then start new company with new workers.
I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.
Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?
Irish Ferries are a highly profitable company, that has been increasing it's profits almost every single year for the last 10 years. It's main profits come from it's freight business, as cheap air flights have meant a massive drop in passengers using ferries.
The report by some very expensive consultants hired by Irish Ferries themselves made certain recommendatios, which showed thatit could make more money on their passenger routes, by taking a few simple measures, one of which was a pay freeze for union workers, which was accepted by the unions and another meant senior managment taking a paycut of 5%.
This report was instantly rejected by the company.
I work alongside a person who is on a contract. She does exactly the same job as I do (sometimes a lot less!), but gets paid exactly double the money. Taking into account the prsi and health insurance contributions made on my behalf by the company, she is paid over €25,000 pa more than I am by the company.
The reason?
So that the company will have NO obligation to her whatsoever. They don't have to pay her holiday money, pay her when she is out sick for a day, can hire or fire her when it suits them and can, and do, act in a completely offhand manner with her. They are willing to shell out an extra €25,000 a year just so they don't have to treat her like a human being, with all the problems associated with humans.
When she gets near to being 23 months in this job, she wil be dumped, and a new person will start in her job the following Monday morning.
She is a statistic, nothing more. The extra money means very little to her, what she wants is a job she can rely on and plan for the future with. She is lucky with the arrangement she has, as she gets paid directlyfrom the company.
The third person working with us is also on a contract, but with an agency. The company pay the agency the same amount as money for him, as they do for the girl. Yet he gets paid the same amount of money as I do, so an agency gets the equivalent of one persons wages every year for simply paying prsi for him and sitting on their h*le.
What have unions done for you?
The right to be treated as ahuman being at work, to be paid a decent wage and given decent conditions. They have ensured that you get holiday pay, paid for bank holidays, as well as the bank holidays themselves, and are allowed time off for deaths, sickness, births, adoptions, special leave, unpaid leave, study leave and continuous education.
It's very easy to knock unions when industrial action is threathened because your flight is delayed or you are put to inconvenience. Maybe you would prefer to give up all the rights that unions have earned for workers and go back to the days of the mill-owners when worker's only right was to work themselves to death so that owner's could make more profits for themselves?
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