Brian Kerr...

[Charlie Darwin]

Much of what you describe as badmouthing, I saw as legitimate criticism.
And much of what you describe as legitimate criticism would have been legitimate criticism if levelled against Kerr during his reign.

[osarusan]

Even if I agree with that (which I don't entirely, but you did say 'much'), I don't really see how that is relevant though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of Kerr's criticisms of Trapattoni were dead on. What I take issue with is that Kerr never once explained why he took a lot of the same decisions himself. I think there was the potential there for Kerr for really give an insight into the pressures an Irish manager is under, the pressure to get results, the pressure to go defensive when attempting to maintain a winning position (as Kerr did many times during his reign) and the pressure to get your tactics right in every single game. The fact is that Kerr mimicked Trap's decisions time and time again, only he had better players and got fewer results, but I wouldn't use that against him if he had tried to contextualise it. Instead, he used Trap's decisions as a stick to beat him with. It could have been really instructive, but instead his articles just played to the gallery. Pat Fenlon was equally scathing of Trap but, in my opinion, he was far more humble and insightful in his analysis. And I'd hardly be Nutsy's biggest fan.

[tetsujin1979]

Much of what you describe as badmouthing, I saw as legitimate criticism.
Pretty much everything Kerr has written since being removed from the manager's position has included a swipe at the FAI, players or management, whereas I struggle to remember any mention of Kerr from anyone in the FAI beyond stating he is the former manager of the international side, and his successes at underage level. Whether or not what he's written was criticism or badmouthing is down to individual interpretation, but you'd have to admit that a large part of the current state of the relationship between Kerr and the FAI is because of him.

[osarusan]

Pretty much everything Kerr has written since being removed from the manager's position has included a swipe at the FAI, players or management, whereas I struggle to remember any mention of Kerr from anyone in the FAI beyond stating he is the former manager of the international side, and his successes at underage level. Whether or not what he's written was criticism or badmouthing is down to individual interpretation, but you'd have to admit that a large part of the current state of the relationship between Kerr and the FAI is because of him.
That all depends on whether you believe that his criticism is legitimate or if it is a 'badmouth' or a 'swipe'.

I think that most of it was legitimate, in which case I don't buy the argument that the deterioration of relationship between them is the result of his legitimate criticism. To put it another way, the FAI cannot use legitimate criticism of them as an organisation to not be open to communication with the person making the criticism (especially given his underage successes).

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Pretty much everything Kerr has written since being removed from the manager's position has included a swipe at the FAI, players or management, whereas I struggle to remember any mention of Kerr from anyone in the FAI beyond stating he is the former manager of the international side, and his successes at underage level. Whether or not what he's written was criticism or badmouthing is down to individual interpretation, but you'd have to admit that a large part of the current state of the relationship between Kerr and the FAI is because of him.

I can only remember Kerr ever praising the players and criticising the manager's lack of faith in their abilities.

[Stuttgart88]

Nah, in among the fair and accurate criticism there was often a swipe and it has hard not to notice that in among the objectivity was a good dollop of bitterness too.

But it's criminal bag between them they sent Dort out their differences. I think that's how JD plays it though, surrounding himself with yes men.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

There is always a Kerr-nel of truth in what Brian is saying.

[Alf Honn]

Pretty much everything Kerr has written since being removed from the manager's position has included a swipe at the FAI, players or management, whereas I struggle to remember any mention of Kerr from anyone in the FAI beyond stating he is the former manager of the international side, and his successes at underage level. Whether or not what he's written was criticism or badmouthing is down to individual interpretation, but you'd have to admit that a large part of the current state of the relationship between Kerr and the FAI is because of him.

How because of him?

I could certainly understand how someone who devoted their life to progressing Irish football at Pat's at FAI could be bitter at not getting the courtesy Trap did of being sacked face to face.

But where has he shown that bitterness? Is is through answering questions about the laziness of FAI staff including Trap, Koevermans, Delaney.

Kerr is one of the respected people of Irish football so his opinion counts.

Much better than some of the pap we hear from ex internationals worried any criticism might cost them a few free pints.

In any other country, a person with Kerr's credentials would have got the Under 21 job or high performance over the last couple of years.

That would take big wigs swollowing their pride. But weren't we told last week Irish football isn't about personalities!

[Crosby87]

Where have you been Alfred? I feared the worst.

[Stuttgart88]

I dunno. I think there has often been an undertone (at least) of bitterness and not when he was offering objective criticism which was usually warranted. The two are separate issues. Obviously it's hard to go back over all his articles to substantiate this but it's something I picked up on a lot.

Also, a lot of the criticism - again usually warranted - was a bit rich from Kerr as a lot of the tactical failings he identified in Trap's regime were evident in Kerr's reign. He was overly cautious, squandered leads and was tactically poor. His substitutions were often very odd and when he tinkered with formations he picked odd players for odd roles - Stephen Elliott as a right "corner forward" was one that stood out for me. His work ethic was second to none though.

One thing that struck me as odd was how the meeja turned on him. Having been their choice and having always been affable and approachable many in the press felt he became too big for his boots when he became manager. But what was he supposed to do? He was the international team manager FFS, not their drinking buddy. I think the press should have appreciated this. They can be quite a dangerous bunch.

[Alf Honn]

I dunno. I think there has often been an undertone (at least) of bitterness and not when he was offering objective criticism which was usually warranted. The two are separate issues. Obviously it's hard to go back over all his articles to substantiate this but it's something I picked up on a lot.

Also, a lot of the criticism - again usually warranted - was a bit rich from Kerr as a lot of the tactical failings he identified in Trap's regime were evident in Kerr's reign. He was overly cautious, squandered leads and was tactically poor. His substitutions were often very odd and when he tinkered with formations he picked odd players for odd roles - Stephen Elliott as a right "corner forward" was one that stood out for me. His work ethic was second to none though.

One thing that struck me as odd was how the meeja turned on him. Having been their choice and having always been affable and approachable many in the press felt he became too big for his boots when he became manager. But what was he supposed to do? He was the international team manager FFS, not their drinking buddy. I think the press should have appreciated this. They can be quite a dangerous bunch.

Undertone? Whatever you say about Kerr, he is a straight talker. He'll put it out there no matter who gets offended.
You're right on some mistakes he made in the job but I recall him answering all the criticisms any time he was asked by the meeja you rightly point out turned on him.
He only got one full campaign and lost 2 of his last 15 games. They were against France and Italy who met in World Cup final a few months later.

It didnt matter cos he was dead man walking in Delaney's view. He had it all worked out any way - Stan was been groomed as succesor to the throne.

[geysir]

There is a difference between his straight talking and him making snide sarcastic remarks against Trap in almost every IT article, on issues which Kerr himself clearly experienced when he was the manager.
It's not about him being right or wrong, he could have made any or all of those points without the add-on sarcasm which just made him sound a bitter, small minded man, carrying his chips.
When he talks about football, leaving out the sarcasm, he is generally sound and very knowledgeable.

[Stuttgart88]

I just re-read my post #207 above. iPad auto correct has a lot to answer for!

[geysir]

Usually one can look at the keyboard to see what key you probably intended to hit and make sense out of a misspelled word in a phrase, but that trick doesn't work with post 207, it takes some extra cryptic decoding.
i guess it's something like - it's criminal that between them they couldn't sort out their differences.

[Stuttgart88]

That was exactly what I meant to say.

[SkStu]

I just re-read my post #207 above. iPad auto correct has a lot to answer for!

I think it's telling that everyone appears to consider that output as par for the course for Stutts! :D

[osarusan]

I just re-read my post #207 above. iPad auto correct has a lot to answer for!

Stuttgart posting:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGxKhUuZ0Rc

[tetsujin1979]

interview with Brian Kerr on NewsTalk as part of their Jameson Caskmates series: https://cdn.radiocms.net/media/012/audio/000002/65496_media_player_audio_file.mp3

[tetsujin1979]

Documentary on eir sport tonight at ten on his success at underage level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TQwxuVRGWo

[Supreme feet]

https://anditscomethroughhere.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-brian-kerr-era-retrospective.html

Here's a long read about the Kerr era for anyone who's interested!

[tetsujin1979]

Good read SF, would slightly disagree about Morrison's performance against Israel at home in the 2-2 game, he did have a goal ruled out for offside

[Fixer82]

Good read. thanks for that. I agree with nearly all of it.
Whether some players did or didn't buy into Kerr doesn't excuse some of the negative tactics Kerr used.
We really were awful to watch under him, except for in friendlies for some reason.

[elatedscum]

I was pretty young under the Kerr era, so I wouldn't trust my memories on it too much but I always felt the inability to get performances out of Duffer was the reason Kerr failed. I remember him giving him a free role for a bunch of games where he was just lost....

Retrospectively, you'd wonder what a young Wesley Hoolahan could have done in that side but certainly couldn't criticise Kerr for that, I doubt there were many calling for his inclusion until probably Trap's reign...

[Supreme feet]

I was pretty young under the Kerr era, so I wouldn't trust my memories on it too much but I always felt the inability to get performances out of Duffer was the reason Kerr failed. I remember him giving him a free role for a bunch of games where he was just lost....

Retrospectively, you'd wonder what a young Wesley Hoolahan could have done in that side but certainly couldn't criticise Kerr for that, I doubt there were many calling for his inclusion until probably Trap's reign...

Oh yeah, I couldn't legitimately criticise Kerr for leaving him out.

But then, you look at how Stephen Kenny called up Jack Taylor for the U21s while he's playing non-league football - he's done well, and now he's being linked with much bigger clubs. That's an example of Kenny having imagination and an eye for a footballer, regardless of the league he's playing in. That's what you want from your international manager.

If Kenny can bring that to the senior game: do what Kerr failed to do, and dig up good players from unfashionable clubs who can bring us something we lack, then great!

For example, I think Connor Ronan could immediately add more for us as an advanced midfielder than the likes of Hendrick and Hourihane, despite playing in League One - but it would be a risk, and Kenny would have to show considerable bravery to pick him.

[tetsujin1979]

King and Givens both called up lower league players for their U21 squads, and were pilloried for it.

[seanfhear]

King and Givens both called up lower league players for their U21 squads, and were pilloried for it.
Is it not sometimes done to give these lads a leg up and maybe raise their profile a bit ; Oh, he’s under 21 player for the Republic of Ireland. Might help a tiny bit to get a player a move to a higher level. Something for a new club to hang a flag / hat on ! ! !

[Charlie Darwin]

Is it not sometimes done to give these lads a leg up and maybe raise their profile a bit ; Oh, he’s under 21 player for the Republic of Ireland. Might help a tiny bit to get a player a move to a higher level. Something for a new club to hang a flag / hat on ! ! !
I don't know if it was, to be fair. King called up a few like Horgan, McNamee and Forrester - Horgan is now a senior international and Forrester was in the wider squad. Fairly sure Coleman played under-21 when he was at Sligo and he's now senior captain, so it's not like there was a lot of tokenism going on.

[geysir]

https://anditscomethroughhere.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-brian-kerr-era-retrospective.html

Here's a long read about the Kerr era for anyone who's interested!
It's a good read but I think it fully falls into the hindsight enhanced, glass half empty catagory, where the author just takes the most negative interpretation with some balance inserted as an addendum.
i read another article recently (somewhere) which took a more positive review about Kerr's 2006 campaign, formation vagaries notwithstanding, the article added more balance
I'd go for a mix of the two articles.

[Supreme feet]

It's a good read but I think it fully falls into the hindsight enhanced, glass half empty catagory, where the author just takes the most negative interpretation with some balance inserted as an addendum.
i read another article recently (somewhere) which took a more positive review about Kerr's 2006 campaign, formation vagaries notwithstanding, the article added more balance
I'd go for a mix of the two articles.

This the one?

https://www.the42.ie/brian-kerr-roy-keane-5095766-May2020/

It makes out that Kerr was simply 'unlucky' which I don't buy. Charlton's team were fortunate in the '88 qualifiers with the Gary Mackay goal, but they'd made their own luck by beating Bulgaria and Scotland, and drawing away to Belgium. O'Neill's team got lucky when Scotland slipped up in Georgia, but they still had to capitalise by beating Germany and Bosnia. We didn't make our own luck under Kerr - he made the same mistake every Irish manager seems to make when things are going badly; keeping faith with limited players on the basis of 'experience' and expecting things to somehow change and improve.

My gripe is that when Kerr took over, Ireland had finished in the top two of every qualifying group since 1986 - eight campaigns. Under Kerr, we finished 3rd and 4th, despite inheriting a team that had out-passed Germany and Spain at a World Cup, and a youth set-up that was consistently in Europe's elite. Trapattoni and O'Neill inherited far more limited squads, and a failing youth setup, and we still reached four playoffs in the five campaigns they presided over. Under Trap, we got ruthlessly consistent results against the lower-seeded 'banana-skin' teams. Under O'Neill, we pulled off some excellent wins against stronger teams. Kerr was able to do neither.

We all expected that Kerr, with his reputation for being knowledgeable, ambitious and professional, was the man to take Ireland to the next level. The period of '03 to '05 was a failure, and I find it difficult to sugar-coat it, despite the fact that Kerr is a likeable man and has served Irish football very well over the years.

[tetsujin1979]

Kerr had a stronger squad available to him than any of the following managers - Duff, Given, and Robbie Keane at their peak, Richard Dunne couldn't break into the partnership of Cunningham and O'Brien, Morrison was one of Robbie Keane's best strike partners, but he still had a naturally defensive mindset.
The team never scored more than three goals in a game, and only managed that twice, never beat anyone ranked higher than 80th in a qualifier, and taking off Morrison and Keane in the last game against Switzerland to bring on Doherty and Connolly, when Switerland were playing for a 0-0 draw, was unforgiveable

[jbyrne]

Kerr had a stronger squad available to him than any of the following managers - Duff, Given, and Robbie Keane at their peak, Richard Dunne couldn't break into the partnership of Cunningham and O'Brien, Morrison was one of Robbie Keane's best strike partners, but he still had a naturally defensive mindset.
The team never scored more than three goals in a game, and only managed that twice, never beat anyone ranked higher than 80th in a qualifier, and taking off Morrison and Keane in the last game against Switzerland to bring on Doherty and Connolly, when Switerland were playing for a 0-0 draw, was unforgiveable

was at the basle 03 match. we didn't land a single punch on switzerland all game in a match we had to win. after the match Kerr walked down to our end, stood in front of us and shrugged his shoulders as if to say "what more could i do". that campaign was a real waste of the team that came out of the 02 WC with a great reputation. we were entitled to expect far far more from that period with the players we had...

[geysir]

This the one?

https://www.the42.ie/brian-kerr-roy-keane-5095766-May2020/

It makes out that Kerr was simply 'unlucky'
From that article you took one cherrypick and you missed:). That was Kerr who was quoted “To this day, I still don’t think we had any luck. It’s still very frustrating.”

Eg, the Benayoun penalty was a total farce, the greek ref was a joke, that 2nd half was another farce. No Roy Keane due to a bogus yellow card picked up in Israel.
Nothing much would have had to change in our favour over that group campaign for us to finish 1st or 2nd. In the end we faced a totally rejuvinated France at home and overall the Swiss were a better team than us, they went on to do well in the play offs and both teams proved themselves very capable at WC 2006.
Of course Kerr made mistakes, I'm just not blinkered, with a total 100% fixation on those mistakes being the determining factors in not finishing in the top two, they are part of the equation.

[Supreme feet]

Of course Kerr made mistakes, I'm just not blinkered, with a total 100% fixation on those mistakes being the determining factors in not finishing in the top two, they are part of the equation.

We may have to agree to disagree here! Any manager, anywhere, will have to carry the can when questionable selections and tactical changes are proved to have weakened the side, or led to failure to achieve its potential. We're always going to have dodgy referees, suspensions and injuries in the odd game, same as any other team.

If we're looking back at Stephen Kenny's tenure in years to come, and lamenting that he kept picking mediocre, washed-up players, picking players out of position, making negative substitutions which resulted in throwing away leads; and had the players looking cowed, demotivated and standoffish in big games, we'll be rightly p*ssed off about it.

[tetsujin1979]

From that article you took one cherrypick and you missed:). That was Kerr who was quoted “To this day, I still don’t think we had any luck. It’s still very frustrating.”

Eg, the Benayoun penalty was a total farce, the greek ref was a joke, that 2nd half was another farce. No Roy Keane due to a bogus yellow card picked up in Israel.
Nothing much would have had to change in our favour over that group campaign for us to finish 1st or 2nd. In the end we faced a totally rejuvinated France at home and overall the Swiss were a better team than us, they went on to do well in the play offs and both teams proved themselves very capable at WC 2006.
Of course Kerr made mistakes, I'm just not blinkered, with a total 100% fixation on those mistakes being the determining factors in not finishing in the top two, they are part of the equation.
Been thinking about this quote from Kerr. I'd never seen Shay Given save a penalty before the away game against Cyprus in October 2005*. Benayoun completely miscued a shot in the box in the 2-2 game. Were those good luck or bad luck? Maybe we didn't have any luck, but say the ref doesn't send Andy O'Brien off against Israel, and we win 2-1 - we'd still finish third in that group. Or if Henry doesn't score a wonder goal and that qualifier finished 0-0, we'd still finish third on goal difference! It wasn't bad luck that dropped points after going ahead in two other games in those qualifiers, and it wasn't bad luck that took off Andy Reid, Robbie Keane and Clinton Morrison in a game we needed to score!

My opinion on luck is that it decides individual instances in games - keeper spills an easy catch, star striker misses an open goal, etc - but over the course of a league, or qualification campaign, you finish where you deserve. We scored 12 goals in the qualifiers - less than France(14), Switzerland(18), and Israel(15), that wasn't because of good or bad luck.

Kerr was given the biggest welcome I've ever seen when he was announced as manager - either at club or international level - and, as I've said above, had a far better squad to work with than any of the managers that followed him, and he underachieved massively with it.

* I'm not saying he'd never saved a penalty before, just that I didn't remember seeing him saving one for Ireland

[Bielsa´s irish]

I always thought this fellows is really great. I love how he explains the football so streetwise yet so like a teacher. I watched what he said on the Portugal match and I agree. Kenny is gonna be at a crossroad today. He needs to deliver results

[liamoo11]

I always thought this fellows is really great. I love how he explains the football so streetwise yet so like a teacher. I watched what he said on the Portugal match and I agree. Kenny is gonna be at a crossroad today. He needs to deliver results

I saw him on the highlights show after tge Portugal game and he was very critical of idah s hold up play and general play said he wasn't up to it yet. Found that a bit harsh. Lukaku couldn't hold the ball up until he went to inter !

[Bielsa´s irish]

I agree with Kerr on that. Idah is better on the sides so dar. Center 9 we need someone there in the meantime

[tetsujin1979]

I think Kerr's been trading on his success with the underage sides for more than a decade. He was a massive disappointment with probably the most talented collection of players we've had at senior international level since Italia 90, and is coming up on ten years since his last job as a manager.

He said Idah was poor in possession, despite him having a 100% pass ratio

[John83]

I think Kerr's been trading on his success with the underage sides for more than a decade. He was a massive disappointment with probably the most talented collection of players we've had at senior international level since Italia 90, and is coming up on ten years since his last job as a manager.

He said Idah was poor in possession, despite him having a 100% pass ratio
I don't disagree overall - I thought Idah had a good game - but a forward probably shouldn't have a 100% pass ratio. It suggests he takes no risks. Safe balls rarely make chances.

[Bielsa´s irish]

He wasnt Mark Viduka shielding the ball not even Tommy Coyne on that affair. The kid is good and flashy I would play him on the sides. He must bring players into play.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't disagree overall - I thought Idah had a good game - but a forward probably shouldn't have a 100% pass ratio. It suggests he takes no risks. Safe balls rarely make chances.
Idah was playing as a target man - and completing every one of his passes suggests he kept possession and kept the ball away from our half. The final goal all stemmed from Coleman losing possession just inside their half, which led to sustained pressure around our goal until, well, you know

[Bielsa´s irish]

Get him at least he can talk

[tetsujin1979]

That's about all he can do.
He had his chance and he blew it.
We could have played that final game against Switzerland for another hour and we still wouldn't have scored

[Fixer82]

Kerr also said Omabamidele committed a foul that should’ve been a penalty against Portugal when the Portuguese player clearly threw himself on the ground after minimal (if any) contact.

We were awful under Kerr (except for friendlies). Got out of jail a couple of times thanks to the Ginger Pele Gary Doherty

[pineapple stu]

I think Kerr had something there - the Portuguese player got the ball first and Omabamidele caught him on the back of the leg. I think we got away with that

[brine3]

I remember at the time people slamming Kerr for us not beating a "poor France who were there for the taking."

They went on to the world cup final.

[Fixer82]

Not with the same players

[Fixer82]

I think Kerr had something there - the Portuguese player got the ball first and Omabamidele caught him on the back of the leg. I think we got away with that

Minimal contact and the Portuguese player threw himself on the ground. Would’ve been very soft.
I also think Connolly may have gotten his peno if he hadn’t been throwing himself on the ground all night

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I think the Connolly one was more of a peno, but I don't think Kerr was wrong in what you quoted him as saying