Boom or Bust

[Shinkicker]

A thread mainly aimed at #Bohs fans who wonder why we can't do what Shels have done under Duff.

In simple terms as a members club we can't lose much cash each year, same as Sligo.

Shels in the last 3 years have lost (€3.5m), the highest 3 years losses recorded by any club.
I found this on X. The numbers were also on the post but they would not copy across for me. Will Shells do the same thing again?

[redobit]

A thread mainly aimed at #Bohs fans who wonder why we can't do what Shels have done under Duff.

In simple terms as a members club we can't lose much cash each year, same as Sligo.

Shels in the last 3 years have lost (€3.5m), the highest 3 years losses recorded by any club.
I found this on X. The numbers were also on the post but they would not copy across for me. Will Shells do the same thing again?

Sligo Rovers (Bohs and Harps too I'd suspect) would be gone if they lost those sort of numbers.

Fan owned clubs need to keep their powder dry and be in a decent position to capitalise, the worm always turns. No coincidence that our most successful period came on the back of the economic bubble bursting. The money men at clubs faded but our revenue didn't really dip at all.

[Nesta99]

But for a Sligo or Bohs you have a Cork too. Its still the spoils of Europe that investors have an eye on for the likes of Shels obviously. If we are honest about it all Bohs/ Sligo etc would have more titles if it werent for the temporary and regular madness that injects cash in to other clubs. If they were on their own without a financial afety net well Harps could overtake Derry in theory. YR1 of any leage win is usually quite good financially, Dundalk 2015, maybe Drogs 2025, but by Y2 and definitely Yr3 of still challanging and players getting bigger wages and bonuses thats when the squeeze starts, money get out of hand with year on year losses getting terminal without a currently still freak run to groups.

[DCSIL]

Can you be considered a Fan run club if you're getting regular money from other clubs?

[placid casual]

Id understand from a sligo perspective that it's hard for them to compete when the outside money is not available,but surely the finances generated by boez commercial success should have them competing with shels and others ( did boez not make €4-5M from shirt sales?). The point being, having finances is not a guarantee of success, albeit it clearly helps.

[Another Bohemia]

Id understand from a sligo perspective that it's hard for them to compete when the outside money is not available,but surely the finances generated by boez commercial success should have them competing with shels and others ( did boez not make €4-5M from shirt sales?). The point being, having finances is not a guarantee of success, albeit it clearly helps.

Bohs are projecting a potential loss of income during the move away from Dalymount. As such we're trying to build a cash reserve to maintain the current level of investment in the men's first team. That's also not the only expenditure at the club (same as most clubs in fairness).

[placid casual]

That makes perfect sense AB, and a good idea.

[Buckett]

Galway Utd are 100% supporter owned, the Galway Utd Friends Co-Op owns it. We just have extremely generous sponsors/supporters in the Comer bros. The Co-Op agreed to sell 85% to the Comers if they choose to take up the offer. This is just to avoid selling out to the Arabs again.

Derrys owner was a supporter long before he was the owner, so they're supporter owned too really.

Sligo Rovers are completely classless, they can't just enjoy their own club without constantly sniping at other clubs that receives money from other sources. The constant sanctimonious lectures from them is tiresome.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

To be honest that’s a ridiculous statement and not indicative of what you see on this forum I don’t believe. Don’t be judging our club by the lunatics on twitter.

[Nesta99]

Bit harsh on Sligo, you dont hear them moan about their stock. The odd slightly odd comment like tradition saving a club from relegation, but its an individual thing. Other comments above you cant argue with technically but a billionaire owner that happens to be a supporter isnt really what is meant - formal ownership model. Any club could get lucky with a rich company or cook the books with crazy sponsorship deal but theyre the exception and are not in a greater sustainability discussion. Even Rovers had to dilute their ownership model pragmatically no matter how its protested, Cork were supremely proud of FORAS but even Cork people are human and they chased the holy grail and still broke everything until bailed. If everyone was fan owned with no cheeky sidelines it'd be fun to see but I think we'd still be slightly better than amatuer, hockeyed in Europe, a difficult product to sell to get attendances, zero infrastructure (Tallaght, the leagues best ground today is the result of fixing a derelict eyesore....leave Oriel out of it, its a different situation). Sligo's project is a mall and very late attempt at addressing wider regional uderdevelopment on a basic level and obviously any leaguewide progress is government funded even with wealthy owners about. Boom and bust has addly worked in incrementally dragging things up with the bust being shared around periodically.

[joey B]

1916932883261857946

Thread from Sligo Rovers AGM,plenty of interesting figures on expenditure and players wages and as ever their brilliant fundraising….

[Shinkicker]

Bohs are projecting a potential loss of income during the move away from Dalymount. As such we're trying to build a cash reserve to maintain the current level of investment in the men's first team. That's also not the only expenditure at the club (same as most clubs in fairness).
Bohs need to design "The shirt of all Shirts" , not give any of it to "good causes", qualify
for Europe, go on a good run in Europe and Evan Ferguson to be sold for in excess of 50 million pounds. All these things have to happen together. Not a problem??

[Martinho II]

Speaking of AGMS how many loi clubs have one? I know with my club its at least 20 years since they last had one. Im always wary when clubs dont hold AGMs it seems like a closed shop.

[Nesta99]

Only clubs with members have AGMs. What were sometimes called AGMs at some clubs were more info nights where a board that was already hand picked were 'voted in' by fans or barflies present. Co-ops, (PLCs types?) would have to vote in. Supporters groups somethings were a kind of club AGM proxy. If an AGM is obligated its oftern still a closed shop. When there is weight of big nymbers like Rovers and Bohs than its harder to hide the cronies. Sligo seem to be very lucky in that there were and are club orientated grafters rather than egos running the club with members and fans that dont lose their sh1t when league titles are not being won at the expense of club development.

[TonyD]

To be honest that’s a ridiculous statement and not indicative of what you see on this forum I don’t believe. Don’t be judging our club by the lunatics on twitter.

Yeah, I have a lot of time for Sligo as a club, and their supporters do seem to put in Trojan work. I hope their development plans come to fruition.

On the wider point, we at Pats got very lucky with Garrett Kelleher I think, and I don’t take that lightly at all. We’d have been in a very bad place in my view if he hadn’t taken over when he did. Of course we’ve had the “oh he’s a property developer, only interested in the land” comments over the years, but I think the fact that he’s stuck with the club, and pumped a hell of a lot of money in over a sustained period of time gives the lie to that.

[Dermobohs]

I’d be in Tony’s camp here, total respect to Sligo, a real fans club.
I’m proud of bohs but I do wish more of our members got involved or even bothered to turn up at agms,and vote.
Also had major doubts about kelleher but he’s been pats saviour, they are allowed run a loss and he backs it every season he’s there for the long haul it seems.

[Nesta99]

I still think he eyes Richmond Park but not at any cot for the football club. Nothing wrong with that, he doesnt see the club as an inconvenience that if he could end financially, force a move and take what he wants. He seems more like he is looking for a better solution than Richmond and then develop that site - win win. That kind of developer owner is rare. At this stage it would be cost neutral to him at best. He also probably had the bug bite in the end and his competative nature got another outlet with on the pitch stuff. Like a scorned man with a determination to prove a point to someone.

Whats with not being able to edit my paost above, anyway what I was saying was Boom and bust has oddly worked in incrementally dragging things up with the bust being shared around periodically, and Sligo's development is a small and very late efforst to address regional funding neglect and not obviously the development of a mall - slightly ironic typo.

[TonyD]

I still think he eyes Richmond Park but not at any cot for the football club. Nothing wrong with that, he doesnt see the club as an inconvenience that if he could end financially, force a move and take what he wants. He seems more like he is looking for a better solution than Richmond and then develop that site - win win. That kind of developer owner is rare. At this stage it would be cost neutral to him at best. He also probably had the bug bite in the end and his competative nature got another outlet with on the pitch stuff. Like a scorned man with a determination to prove a point to someone.

I wouldn’t totally disagree with you, but bear in mind that he offered the site at Richmond to the Council in return for the switch to St Michaels estate. I think he is probably of the view that Richmond is not the best place to develop a modern stadium, but it appears to be all were left with now. Remember, before he came along we were looking at a forced ground share with Rovers in Tallaght. I don’t think I’m being naive in suggesting that if Garrett Kelleher had any nefarious intentions with regard to the land at Richmond Park they would have become evident well before now. Either that or he’s playing a very long game indeed.

[Zico]

1916932883261857946

Thread from Sligo Rovers AGM,plenty of interesting figures on expenditure and players wages and as ever their brilliant fundraising….

Player wages at €850k out of a total budget of €2.4m. Wages only 35% of total revenue - that is extremely low. Read somewhere else that total wage bill is €1.3m including coaches and admin staff. That leaves other running costs at €1.1m which seems high. Whatever about wages, how does any first division club survive if running costs are that high???

[2 Year Contract]

Player wages at €850k out of a total budget of €2.4m. Wages only 35% of total revenue - that is extremely low. Read somewhere else that total wage bill is €1.3m including coaches and admin staff. That leaves other running costs at €1.1m which seems high. Whatever about wages, how does any first division club survive if running costs are that high???

Would be interesting to see a breakdown of the running costs. Off the top of my head, security/policing of games would cost a lot less in the first division than the premier, but then again travel for some clubs would probably cost more in the first division with clubs more spread out

[Jack B]

I wouldn’t totally disagree with you, but bear in mind that he offered the site at Richmond to the Council in return for the switch to St Michaels estate. I think he is probably of the view that Richmond is not the best place to develop a modern stadium, but it appears to be all were left with now. Remember, before he came along we were looking at a forced ground share with Rovers in Tallaght. I don’t think I’m being naive in suggesting that if Garrett Kelleher had any nefarious intentions with regard to the land at Richmond Park they would have become evident well before now. Either that or he’s playing a very long game indeed.

To his and the board's credit they've always been steadfast in their insistence that they'll not move the club from Inchicore, even though a large number of fans have said they'd be accepting of moving to a surrounding area if that was the only viable option. They're extremely limited in what they can do as a result, Michael's Estate was a missed opportunity that the council have pathetically not done anything with anyway, so we're left with the long slog of developing Richmond now. As you say through his actions I think he's earned himself more than enough good credit at this point.

[Neish]

Can you be considered a Fan run club if you're getting regular money from other clubs?

Why not ?

Fans still run the day to day business of the club and said money is coming from FANS of other clubs

[Nesta99]

I wouldn’t totally disagree with you, but bear in mind that he offered the site at Richmond to the Council in return for the switch to St Michaels estate. I think he is probably of the view that Richmond is not the best place to develop a modern stadium, but it appears to be all were left with now. Remember, before he came along we were looking at a forced ground share with Rovers in Tallaght. I don’t think I’m being naive in suggesting that if Garrett Kelleher had any nefarious intentions with regard to the land at Richmond Park they would have become evident well before now. Either that or he’s playing a very long game indeed.

No no I dont see anything nefarious about possile intentions to fix a few things in one go. Richmond is almost undevelopable as a good modern ground, large amenity space etc like Tallaght. It will be a nightmare to get permission to do a whole lot simply on issues with the Camac and very close proximity to housing sandwiched in to what was probably and old infil site between road/housing and river used for a kick about. Buying up housing would help but its still a 1 side access ground (Im no longer just occasional matchnight visitor and passing it every day I both love and wonder at how you could never know there is a national top division 5k league ground and club there unless you knew). Soooo with that in mind it could be developed with (arguably limited) high density apartments like at the Old Choclate Factory area of Kilmainham or a very big hotel etc etc. But this would only happen if there is a good alternative for the club like the former St Michaels no brainer. Even with apartment development planning would still be a total pain so offer a site swap with the people who decide on planning issues thinking that they are not going to hobble their own development:rolleyes:. In tandem Kelleher offers an urban renewal project with a new stadium community hub. So his thinking - I develop Richmond in to housing, hostelery, and make money, or I develop an area by giving over Richmond and I make money. Either way at this stage he's unlikely to be making profit on Richmond Park/St Pats. He could easly have run St Pats on cents with hope of cashing in on land asset eventually, scarper to Tallaght, but instead he embraced the club - I think a man like him, with properly deep pockets, took a personal pride in not even having a poorly run and funded LoI club in his name.

The winds changed with the success of SDCC's municpal stadium and other LAs want their own piece but a bunch of similar type facilities will dilute the business side of these facilities and they could become cost burdens and Tallaght has a big headstart. Dalymount could make a play on the 'Home of Irish Football' but really these councils are getting in to pishing matches with each other (no complaints if it delivers sporting infrastructure). Where there is opportuity is with arenas rather than football stadia so you'll see proposals for Hockey Arena/Oddssey Belfast type stuff or fecking white water canoing on the Liffey, anything where one council can wiggle their aras at another council. Kelleher i'd have no doubt would have an eye on this seachange if anything is possible to get a development project movig involving Richmond - which could be just develoing Richmond as best as possible with the council relaxing on some planning issues. I think in this day and age there are interesting engineering solutions to most problems, feck it put a stadium on top of a new supermarket or apartment complex, or hotel.....

In a long winded way, Keleher would and likey still is looking at his opportunities but St Pats got lucky because he isnt a complete and utter greedy ballix.

[Jack B]

The club are being tight-lipped on it but supposedly the plan is to rotate the pitch 90 degrees so the Camac becomes less of an issue, there'd be access points either side of the pitch etc. Hard to be certain though without anything really concrete out there. Ger O'Brien mentioned at a pre-season event that they're hoping to have it all finished for the start of the 2029 season, which I think is fair to be sceptical on at this stage.

[Nesta99]

2029 is doable if not looking for public money. It pretty scary that we used to talk about €1m for a decent new stand and now its €25m for any half decent plan - see Louth GAA's announcement of funding and cost for a single 6k stand and essentially a clubhouse on Monday night.
Its really hard to visualise changing the pitch in Richmond, fitting it all in on a 90deg switch. Not saying the scope isnt there, just its hard to see in such a tight ground. Access to 2 different stands is an improvement obviously but it would still be a general 1 side access in to the ground complex surely, unless the Camac can be piped, bridged and there is the possibility of some access from that side. I know there are many one side access grounds but in terms of the really modern concept of large concourse, fan areas, able to walk the perimiter stuff, adaptable to community hubs non matchdays etc well Richmond will only ever be a pragmatic, functional development compared to what say Sligo are trying.