Ticket Prices

[JC_GUFC]

Cork City have gone up to €25 this season which has caused a bit of a storm.

What are other ticket prices around the League for a standard adult ticket?

A quick scan of this weekend's fixtures I see

Shels €20 v Derry but €22 in a few weeks against Rovers (I guess Cat A game)

St Pat's v Drogs €18 Camac Terrace, €20 Patron Stand (both including the €2 ticket charge they add on)

Drogs €20 v Sligo

Sligo €21 v Waterford (including €1 fee)

Waterford €20 for both stands (I couldn't check if there was a fee or not as you have to log in to reach the checkout)

Rovers €21 v Cork (including €1 fee) - interestingly their game against Pat's is the same price, I thought last season they had the derbies as Cat A and a bit more expensive.

Galway United, Derry and Bohs don't have tickets up online for any home matches this season.

When I've a bit more time I'll try to compare to other sporting events to see how the pricing, particularly the €25 stacks up.

[WoodquayBoy]

Connacht are at home to Cardiff in the URC this weekend - it’s €32 for uncovered standing terrace behind each goal for an adult ticket; and €47 for the enclosed stand (think there are some seats available there from memory) on the Eyre Square end for adult ticket.
The open stand (again, a standing terrace) in front of the enclosure is sold out and no prices available. Stand/terrace in opposite side is under construction, so I don’t know if reduced capacity this season has meant an increase in prices

[nr637]

Cork City are also introducing a Five-Match-Pack for €100, which will allow supporters to purchase a package for five matches at a discounted rate. :)

[DCSIL]

NI Premier went up to £15 this season which a few aren’t happy about

[JC_GUFC]

Connacht are at home to Cardiff in the URC this weekend - it’s €32 for uncovered standing terrace behind each goal for an adult ticket; and €47 for the enclosed stand (think there are some seats available there from memory) on the Eyre Square end for adult ticket.
The open stand (again, a standing terrace) in front of the enclosure is sold out and no prices available. Stand/terrace in opposite side is under construction, so I don’t know if reduced capacity this season has meant an increase in prices

Interesting - I had a look at other rugby provinces and there are differences between them.

Munster v Scarlets in the URC - €22.95 for terrace and €44.25 for the stands.

Ulster in the URC - £22.25 or £27.75 for terraces and £32.75 or £44.25 for the stand - cheaper prices are those behind the posts.

Leinster in the URC at Aviva - €27.95 is the cheapest ticket up to €66.60 (not including Premium level tickets). That's against an Italian team, prices for the Ulster game were a few quid more expensive.

GAA League fixtures look to be €20 across the board (not including any handling fee).

[LTFC]

When did prices in Prem start going up, was it after crowds began to increase? Inflation from 2018 to end of 2024 was about 20%?

[EalingGreen]

NI Premier went up to £15 this season which a few aren’t happy about£15 = €18 (approx). That is the new maximum price the clubs can charge in the Premiership, though I'm pretty sure no-one is discounting below that. This is an increase of 15.4% on last season, when the maximum was £13 (€15.60).

The new maximum for Seniors and Children is £10 (€12), though afaik they don't all charge that much - eg sometimes have initiatives like "Kids for a Quid", or Family Discounts etc.

This means that Premiership ticket prices have increased by 20% in two seasons, and 50% since 2017. At end of the 2022/23 campaign, that maximum price was raised from £12 (€14.40) to £13, which has been followed by this year’s £2 increase. As recently as the 2016/17 term, entry was capped at £10 (€12).

While clubs in NI, inc DCFC (obv), also have to pay 20% VAT on tickets revenues.

[Martinho II]

https://ltfc.ie/tickets/

Its 15 quid for us but pity it dont cater for those who are out of work or retired or are a student?

[joey B]

https://ltfc.ie/tickets/



Its 15 quid for us but pity it dont cater for those who are out of work or retired or are a student?

There’s a student/Oap there is there not?

[total hoofball]

Shels matchday adult ticket prices increases are below, between 2005/06-ish to 2022 adult ticket prices were frozen at €15 whether we were in the Premier Division or the First Division so hard to compare for inflation versus football level quality over that lengthy period especially those latter years in the First Division when most other clubs were charging €10

I'm not a fan of LOI ticket prices breaching the €20 mark I still think way more scope for clubs to increase attendances/fanbases though I do understand the arguments of supply/demand and if you want to see your club being full-time professional competing in Europe then pay your contribution. Cork at €25 is utterly ridiculous for what is going to be a bad team this season who will do well not to yo-yo back to the First Division for 2026


2022 Premier Division €15
2023 Premier Division €17
2024 Premier Division €20 CAT A (Bohs, Pats, Rovers) / €17 CAT B (Derry, Drogheda, Dundalk, Galway, Sligo, Waterford) / €22 European games (St. Joseph's. FC Zurich)
2025 Premier Division €22 CAT A (Bohs, Pats, Rovers) / €20 CAT B (Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Galway, Sligo, Waterford)

https://shelbournefc.ie/season-tickets-2024-buy/

https://shelbournefc.ie/season-tickets-2025/

[Martinho II]

There’s a student/Oap there is there not?

Not sure tbh better leave it to the experts?

[pineapple stu]

I'm on expert on reading if that helps :)

"Student/OAP Ticket €10.00 each
Entry for Student/OAP, you may be asked for ID.

Students (13-18), OAP's (Over 65's)"

So I think the answer is yes :)

[dansultheman]

While the league is on a huge upward trajectory, a lot of the facility upgrades, cost of maintaining existing grounds has risen every year. League of Ireland players are getting well paid now at the Premier Division and lots of money in some clubs in the first, as shown by Athlone, Cobh & Dundalk this season.

Ive always maintained that charging 15 - 20 euro is fine, even 25 if the facility is up to par with the best out there. You get 2-3 hours of entertainment (good or bad). The GAA which is seeing a huge drop in attendances, playing the worse football Ive ever seen, are charing 20-30 euro for a 1 hour match, which 8 times out of 10 (Gaelic), are brutal to watch, hurling is brilliant.

[dundalkfc10]

While the league is on a huge upward trajectory, a lot of the facility upgrades, cost of maintaining existing grounds has risen every year. League of Ireland players are getting well paid now at the Premier Division and lots of money in some clubs in the first, as shown by Athlone, Cobh & Dundalk this season.

Ive always maintained that charging 15 - 20 euro is fine, even 25 if the facility is up to par with the best out there. You get 2-3 hours of entertainment (good or bad). The GAA which is seeing a huge drop in attendances, playing the worse football Ive ever seen, are charing 20-30 euro for a 1 hour match, which 8 times out of 10 (Gaelic), are brutal to watch, hurling is brilliant.

Id go to Louth games and this season it's €20 into league games, €15 OAP and €5 under 16
You can buy a 4 game package for €60 too

Don't know how much a season ticket is, as I didn't want one this year as with all the long trips for Dundalk ahead, the other half wouldn't be happy with me going to Cork to watch Louth on a Sunday

[total hoofball]

Shels matchday adult ticket prices increases are below, between 2005/06-ish to 2022 adult ticket prices were frozen at �15 whether we were in the Premier Division or the First Division so hard to compare for inflation versus football level quality over that lengthy period especially those latter years in the First Division when most other clubs were charging �10

I'm not a fan of LOI ticket prices breaching the �20 mark I still think way more scope for clubs to increase attendances/fanbases though I do understand the arguments of supply/demand and if you want to see your club being full-time professional competing in Europe then pay your contribution. Cork at �25 is utterly ridiculous for what is going to be a bad team this season who will do well not to yo-yo back to the First Division for 2026


2022 Premier Division �15
2023 Premier Division �17
2024 Premier Division �20 CAT A (Bohs, Pats, Rovers) / �17 CAT B (Derry, Drogheda, Dundalk, Galway, Sligo, Waterford) / �22 European games (St. Joseph's. FC Zurich)
2025 Premier Division �22 CAT A (Bohs, Pats, Rovers) / �20 CAT B (Cork, Derry, Drogheda, Galway, Sligo, Waterford)

https://shelbournefc.ie/season-tickets-2024-buy/

https://shelbournefc.ie/season-tickets-2025/

Shels 2026 season ticket prices announced today, above inflation 5% increases and now a physical season ticket card will be an optional additional €5 charge. No information yet on matchday ticket prices. While Shels average attendance was up last season I can't see growth in season ticket sales at those prices


Season Ticket Prices 2026:


Renewal
New Buyer


Adult
€ 289
€ 315


Student
€ 210
€ 231


Senior
€ 184
€ 210


Teen (13-17)
€ 163
€ 173


Child (12 & Under)
€ 84
€ 95


Family Bundle (1+1)
€ 357
€ 394


Family Bundle (1+2)
€ 440
€ 483


Family Bundle (2+2)
€ 703
€ 750

[sbgawa]

Is the renewal price up as well or just the new buyer price?

[total hoofball]

Is the renewal price up as well or just the new buyer price?
Both up about 5%

[cláirseach]

Slightly off topic but a question for the Dundalk fans - if you buy a 'Ground' season ticket, or a 'Stand' season ticket, do both allow the same access to the bar? Thanks

[Louth4sam]

Slightly off topic but a question for the Dundalk fans - if you buy a 'Ground' season ticket, or a 'Stand' season ticket, do both allow the same access to the bar? Thanks

Yes for the Lilywhite. You could realistically access either bar at half time and full time though, as doors are open.

[oriel]

Yes for the Lilywhite. You could realistically access either bar at half time and full time though, as doors are open.

Correct, and although most (all) stand fans who want to go the bar pre / ht / ft will go to the 'upstairs' bar, some from town side of terrace or front of main stand terrace also go there.

As strange as it may seem almost all from shed side who want to go in at HT, make the long walk around to Lilywhite lounge, they should really open a bar for shed side folk in YDC, right behind it, used to be one there 15 years ago or so.

There's actually a 3rd bar under main stand, but that's for sponsors / guests, its the long window bit you can see just over the away section, great view actually, well of exactly half the pitch !!!

[dundalkfc10]

Correct, and although most (all) stand fans who want to go the bar pre / ht / ft will go to the 'upstairs' bar, some from town side of terrace or front of main stand terrace also go there.

As strange as it may seem almost all from shed side who want to go in at HT, make the long walk around to Lilywhite lounge, they should really open a bar for shed side folk in YDC, right behind it, used to be one there 15 years ago or so.

There's actually a 3rd bar under main stand, but that's for sponsors / guests, its the long window bit you can see just over the away section, great view actually, well of exactly half the pitch !!!

The Bar in the YDC is now the bar in Russell's. It was moved when they done Russel's up for a few years ago

The set up in Bray behind the goals with the bar would make some money in Oriel. Can be nights in the shed and at least half the place is drinking cans, so don't know why the club have never set something up to let people buy pints in plastic glasses

[cláirseach]

Thanks everyone. If you buy a stand ticket is it easy enough to slip downstairs instead when the weather is good?

[dundalkfc10]

Thanks everyone. If you buy a stand ticket is it easy enough to slip downstairs instead when the weather is good?

In Oriel, no problem at all. There's an entrance to the right facing the stand which leads down to in front of the home dug out and steward would have no issue with you going down (but not up without a stand ticket)
At half time you can move freely between both too

[cláirseach]

Thanks mate

[Shinkicker]

On various sites today that 10,000 tickets have been sold for the Bohs v Pats opener. I think it's good with four weeks to go. Some comments saying the tickets are too expensive. Any thoughts?? Will they get 30k? I think they will

[sbgawa]

It will be interesting and a good indicator that a game like this is sustainable going forward if they do get 30k+
Last year it had novelty factor and you had the whole Bohs Rovers thing as well as the fact that Rovers were/ are the team to beat for the last 5 years.
This year its 4th against 5th, if thta draws 30k plus there should be a clamour of clubs looking to play next year

[outspoken]

Really doesn't seem to be the same buy in from Pat's fans for whatever reason. A lot of talk about the prices but as others have pointed out here it's what, 24 quid plus a few into Richmond as an away supporter, surely an extra few quid for premium in Aviva isn't an issue?

[2 Year Contract]

Really doesn't seem to be the same buy in from Pat's fans for whatever reason. A lot of talk about the prices but as others have pointed out here it's what, 24 quid plus a few into Richmond as an away supporter, surely an extra few quid for premium in Aviva isn't an issue?

The majority of the tickets bought are by season ticket holders so far I’d imagine. The away supporter at Richmond point is irrelevant to Pats fans given they’re the home fans there. Away tickets are that price (including booking fee) for the main stand which last year was entirely sold out to season ticket holders, meaning for league games no Pats fan paid €24 for a ticket at Richmond, the price for a terrace ticket is €17 including fees, so €27, €32 or €37 is a pretty big jump for any floating fans/part timers or neutrals. That plus the general lack of excitement about the season ahead from a lot of Pats fans (myself included though I do have tickets for the Aviva) are probably the main reasons you’re seeing sales as low as they’ve been. Last season’s goal being the title with Europe as the bare minimum (which wasn’t reached of course) being flipped to this season where it feels like Europe is the absolute best case scenario is quite the comedown

[Jolly Red Giant]

It will be interesting and a good indicator that a game like this is sustainable going forward if they do get 30k+
Capacity is limited to 30K - the top tier is not being used.



Last year it had novelty factor and you had the whole Bohs Rovers thing as well as the fact that Rovers were/ are the team to beat for the last 5 years.
This year its 4th against 5th, if thta draws 30k plus there should be a clamour of clubs looking to play next year
There was definitely a novelty factor - but also a big turnout from Bohs and Shams fans. I'd be surprised if it gets to 30K - but I do think 25K is a distinct possibility. Last year there was a burst of sales late on - at this stage last year people were saying that they attendance might be as low as 20K and it was 21 January before the lower tiers at the Bohs end were sold out.


Really doesn't seem to be the same buy in from Pat's fans for whatever reason. A lot of talk about the prices but as others have pointed out here it's what, 24 quid plus a few into Richmond as an away supporter, surely an extra few quid for premium in Aviva isn't an issue?
There does seem to be a low take up from Pats fans - looks something like 1,500 tickets sold in their end. Now Rovers fans were slow on the uptake last year as well - but they were playing European football at the time.

[ontheotherhand]

There does seem to be a low take up from Pats fans - looks something like 1,500 tickets sold in their end. Now Rovers fans were slow on the uptake last year as well - but they were playing European football at the time.

There would likely be a very low take up from Rovers fans if it was the same matchup again this year. Id say about 5% of the people I know who went would do it again. Funny that bohs apparently limited themselves to 20k when they told us they'd sold far more than that for the one last year.

[sbgawa]

There does seem to be a low take up from Pats fans - looks something like 1,500 tickets sold in their end. Now Rovers fans were slow on the uptake last year as well - but they were playing European football at the time[/B].

Id actually forgotten that part about us playing in Europe hence the slow take up from Rovers fans i remember now this game almost sneaking up on me because we had Eueopean games either side of it.
TBF anyone/most of the people posting here are probably going to attend any match where our teams are in the Aviva but its by definition the floating "dippers as Cork would call them) you need for this gig

[BigEars]

Part of that novelty factor last year also helped generate a lot of sports/general media which helped encourage a lot of neutrals to go.

I met people at the game last year, who I didn't have a clue would have any interest in a LOI game.
The League was also getting a lot of general attention with Duff still at Shels and Robers trailblazing in Europe.

They'll need a big push from the media to bolster sales among the neutrals again if this is to get near that 30k mark.

[WeAreRovers]

Id actually forgotten that part about us playing in Europe hence the slow take up from Rovers fans i remember now this game almost sneaking up on me because we had Eueopean games either side of it.
TBF anyone/most of the people posting here are probably going to attend any match where our teams are in the Aviva but its by definition the floating "dippers as Cork would call them) you need for this gig

True and the opposite is also true, at least for me personally, that there is zero chance of me attending a game between two teams I don't support.

[ontheotherhand]

Part of the problem is that a lot of fans probably aren't aware that using the Aviva is an option for any team. Although that might have been Scanlon just trying to cover himself a bit. Obviously it only makes sense for the Dublin ones but only bohs have a pressing need to explore alternative options. As of now, for a lot of people, it looks like Bohs have been able to cherry pick their first game of the season twice, while making a lot of money from it in the process.

[Shinkicker]

Part of the problem is that a lot of fans probably aren't aware that using the Aviva is an option for any team. Although that might have been Scanlon just trying to cover himself a bit. Obviously it only makes sense for the Dublin ones but only bohs have a pressing need to explore alternative options. As of now, for a lot of people, it looks like Bohs have been able to cherry pick their first game of the season twice, while making a lot of money from it in the process.
It does look like Bohs got to cherry pick their season opener, but they are the only ones with the b@//$ to do this. They have been very active in promoting the league and if the crowd is good at this one too it's highlighting the need for funding for ground improvements and where possible ground expansions to accommodate more fans. Some Pats fans may complain about the ticket prices and putting money into the Bohs coffers but they'll still watch it on TV thus still supporting the Bohs idea. Maybe next year the LOI will take the iniciative, spread the money and say it's Shels and Rovers at the aviva. Good luck filling that one. I couldn't go last year but I've got my ticket for this one. No issues with the price, big match atmosphere, great seats and a beer too. If Bohs make money doing it fair play to them. The biggest rewards are gained from the biggest risks. Bohs wouldn't do this if they thought the numbers couldn't be achieved.

[ontheotherhand]

It does look like Bohs got to cherry pick their season opener, but they are the only ones with the b@//$ to do this. They have been very active in promoting the league and if the crowd is good at this one too it's highlighting the need for funding for ground improvements and where possible ground expansions to accommodate more fans. Some Pats fans may complain about the ticket prices and putting money into the Bohs coffers but they'll still watch it on TV thus still supporting the Bohs idea. Maybe next year the LOI will take the iniciative, spread the money and say it's Shels and Rovers at the aviva. Good luck filling that one. I couldn't go last year but I've got my ticket for this one. No issues with the price, big match atmosphere, great seats and a beer too. If Bohs make money doing it fair play to them. The biggest rewards are gained from the biggest risks. Bohs wouldn't do this if they thought the numbers couldn't be achieved.

Other clubs don't need to do it and bohs are promoting bohs first and foremost. Fair play to them, but let's not get carried away here and suggest they are doing it for the greater good. They are doing it to earn the money they will need to cover the costs of renting somewhere else while Dalymount is out of action, and probably test the feasibility of playing some of their big games in the Aviva during that time. And the LoI won't be scheduling Shels v Rovers there unless the clubs ask for it, which I'm not sure they'd be interested in. As a Rovers fan, I can't see it. We don't need it, and in fact, Bradley was against playing it last season, more to do with scheduling that anything else, as we had Molde either side in much more important games.

Always thought you were a bohs fan tbh. You've phrased that like you are a neutral. I'll take you off my "list of hatred" so.

[total hoofball]

On various sites today that 10,000 tickets have been sold for the Bohs v Pats opener. I think it's good with four weeks to go. Some comments saying the tickets are too expensive. Any thoughts?? Will they get 30k? I think they will
No Bohs won't hit 30k+ going by the current trajectory compared to the Rovers game last year with the Pats game also scheduled a week earlier. Bohs were transparent last year on their ticket sales these are the date/numbers I can see that they posted on X last year, if there is anything close to a repeat in late surge of ticket sales I think they will make 20k but 25k+ will be a serious achievement

December 14th 2024: 12,000 sold
February 2nd 2025: 20,000 sold
February 10th 2025: 25,000 sold
February 15th 2025: 31,000 sold
February 16th 2025: 32,000 sold
February 16th 2025: 33,208 attendance

[Shinkicker]

Other clubs don't need to do it and bohs are promoting bohs first and foremost. Fair play to them, but let's not get carried away here and suggest they are doing it for the greater good. They are doing it to earn the money they will need to cover the costs of renting somewhere else while Dalymount is out of action, and probably test the feasibility of playing some of their big games in the Aviva during that time. And the LoI won't be scheduling Shels v Rovers there unless the clubs ask for it, which I'm not sure they'd be interested in. As a Rovers fan, I can't see it. We don't need it, and in fact, Bradley was against playing it last season, more to do with scheduling that anything else, as we had Molde either side in much more important games.

Always thought you were a bohs fan tbh. You've phrased that like you are a neutral. I'll take you off my "list of hatred" so.
I don't know how you thought I was a neutral when I fully support Bohs and what they are doing on the football front. Regarding Bradley being against it last year, the game was going to be played one way or another the only debate was the venue.
Speaking to my rovers supporting friends in the weeks after the match, they also played the game down citing the European games. If rovers had won the game I think theirs and your thoughts would certainly be different and you would still be talking about it today. Yes Bohs are doing it for the money, they have the foresight to do this and I think real supporters fromwill attend the game regardless as to who pockets the money.Unfortunately I like everyone so you are still on my list.

[2 Year Contract]

Other clubs don't need to do it and bohs are promoting bohs first and foremost. Fair play to them, but let's not get carried away here and suggest they are doing it for the greater good. They are doing it to earn the money they will need to cover the costs of renting somewhere else while Dalymount is out of action, and probably test the feasibility of playing some of their big games in the Aviva during that time. And the LoI won't be scheduling Shels v Rovers there unless the clubs ask for it, which I'm not sure they'd be interested in. As a Rovers fan, I can't see it. We don't need it, and in fact, Bradley was against playing it last season, more to do with scheduling that anything else, as we had Molde either side in much more important games.

Always thought you were a bohs fan tbh. You've phrased that like you are a neutral. I'll take you off my "list of hatred" so.



I don't know how you thought I was a neutral when I fully support Bohs and what they are doing on the football front. Regarding Bradley being against it last year, the game was going to be played one way or another the only debate was the venue.
Speaking to my rovers supporting friends in the weeks after the match, they also played the game down citing the European games. If rovers had won the game I think theirs and your thoughts would certainly be different and you would still be talking about it today. Yes Bohs are doing it for the money, they have the foresight to do this and I think real supporters fromwill attend the game regardless as to who pockets the money.Unfortunately I like everyone so you are still on my list.

I’m getting a serious Father Ted vibe off this lads :D

https://youtu.be/SP72L0TYEgA?si=TRgtLJO9bfwRPfEn

[yurt]

I'm glad it's gotten to 10k tickets sold at this stage. I don't think there'll be many more tickets bought in the next couple weeks and then with increased media coverage with season build ups I think there'll be a lot of renewed interest.

With Shels playing away on the opening Friday I could see a lot of those fans deciding to buy a ticket and head along as a neutral after not seeing a live game in so long.

I think it should break 20k tickets sold and hopefully the Aviva opener will stick around until Dalymount is completed

[ontheotherhand]

I don't know how you thought I was a neutral when I fully support Bohs and what they are doing on the football front. Regarding Bradley being against it last year, the game was going to be played one way or another the only debate was the venue.
Speaking to my rovers supporting friends in the weeks after the match, they also played the game down citing the European games. If rovers had won the game I think theirs and your thoughts would certainly be different and you would still be talking about it today. Yes Bohs are doing it for the money, they have the foresight to do this and I think real supporters fromwill attend the game regardless as to who pockets the money.Unfortunately I like everyone so you are still on my list.

It was just the way you phrased your post, as if bohs weren't your club. You made them sound like some sort of fully benevolent entity, out solely to boost the league. The timing of the event tells its own story really. You needed it. Fair play, great idea. Our CEO certainly backed it at the time, if not our football department. Being honest, I don't know what happened there. We should have pushed for the usual random fixture instead of a derby.

On the topic of it being played at all: a serious league would have pushed it and given us a better chance to beat Molde, which would have arguably done more for the league in the long run than a one off game in the Aviva. And we were so close. If not for the two injuries picked up v bohs, I think we would have gone through. Look at our bench in the return leg.

I will say again that I, myself, liked the idea of the Aviva game, but I'm in the minority of fans I know and talk to (call it 200 in various whatsapp groups and forums). It was a hot topic obviously. They give various different reasons, some of which Pats fans are now giving as well.

Rovers fans were playing it down way before the result to be honest. It was a distraction. I thought we could have done more to make it a real event personally, but, again, I was in the minority at the time and I understand that side too. Even if we'd won it wouldn't be talked about today though. We won a much bigger game in the Aviva more recently and, at the end of the day, it benefitted bohs more than anything else, so it was never going to be celebrated much by us regardless of the result. We might have laughed a bit that we pocketed a decent amount as well, but that's about it.

You're alright though. I'll move you off the list. The bohs fans on here are usually fairly pleasant actually. Since marinobohs and a few others departed.

I'll leave you with a "good luck". I do hope it goes reasonably well. It does help to show that the league can draw big crowds. And I respect bohs for trying something new, even if I doubt the charitable motivations.

[ontheotherhand]

I’m getting a serious Father Ted vibe off this lads :D

https://youtu.be/SP72L0TYEgA?si=TRgtLJO9bfwRPfEn

I really like TonyD if that helps?

[Roones26]

What was the price of a season ticket at your club in 2016 and how much has it increased by in 10 years ?