Republic of Ireland v Finland - Thursday, 14th November 2024 - UEFA Nations League

[John83]

But you have to be happier about it, Snapshot, lest you make RLP cry.

I'll take a ropey win. For too long we were unlucky, game after game. You're unlucky often enough and becomes clear it's not luck.

[Eirambler]

I can't see this at all. Still largely the same bunch of useless players. We're going nowhere.

I would disagree fairly strongly with that. I think we're getting much better in possession by being that bit more direct. Out of possession the issues remain at this point alright - we're too easy to play through and our defenders are left too exposed.

[Eirambler]

But O'Dowda? I was a bit worried when he got booked after five minutes, and Finland in the first half seemed to make good progress down his side. I think their attacks in the second half came more down our right, leaving O'Dowda freer to get forward more, which is arguably playing to his strengths.

Not sure how he'll cope v England when we will be defending a lot, but certainly was an improvement on his last game for us (which was the one in Greece I think). I suspect Coleman has played his last game for us, and McClean presumably has as well (though wouldn't say never with him), and as the wing-back options dwindle it becomes more important to find someone who can play there...


I was wondering if the Manning for Johnston sub near the end might point towards an option for Sunday - starting both O'Dowda and Manning on the left, one in front of the other. I don't think either is strong enough defensively to play left back against England, but possibly if you started Manning left mid in front of O'Dowda (or the other way around) one would be able to give the other some protection in a way that Johnston just can't/won't against that level of opposition. So something like

-----------------Kelleher
O'Shea Collins Scales O'Dowda
-----------Cullen Molumby
------Szmodics Azaz Manning
----------------Ferguson

[Jolly Red Giant]

A win is a win - and that is something that was very hard to do under Kenny - however - we were dominated by Finland throughout the entire game and should have lost it. That is very concerning because the Irish players play at a far higher level than most of the Finnish squad.

You expect to see progress - but there was no progress here.

It we play the same way against England on Sunday it could get very embarrassing.

[Acornvilla]

It wasn't great, but it was a win, I'll take that in this economy. Could have been 2/3 down before we scored if Finland took their chances mind, so although I want to be positive, small margins and it could have been a disaster, the save from Collins was excellent tbf! Wembley will be awful, I struggle to see us coming out of there feeling good about anything, but let us all hope we get a very winnable tie in the playoffs and use it as the real starting point to build confidence and momentum.

Matt Doherty was grand!

[jbyrne]

A win is a win - and that is something that was very hard to do under Kenny - however - we were dominated by Finland throughout the entire game and should have lost it. That is very concerning because the Irish players play at a far higher level than most of the Finnish squad.

You expect to see progress - but there was no progress here.

It we play the same way against England on Sunday it could get very embarrassing.

except when we scored the only goal and forced 7 corners (to finlands 5)! we must have done something right with those stats.
except for the 10 mins before our goal I felt comfortable enough tbh
felt we broke well at times with some smart passing and little flicks putting players in a bit of space.

the reaction to the performance last night is very predictably overly negative

[Razors left peg]

But you have to be happier about it, Snapshot, lest you make RLP cry.

I'll take a ropey win. For too long we were unlucky, game after game. You're unlucky often enough and becomes clear it's not luck.

I could use a good cry tbh, it's been a rough couple of weeks in this part of the world with the election and everything. I could tell you more but you'd only end up deleting the post for being off topic.

[Predator]

We were lucky to get away with the win, but I think a lot of the issues were self-inflicted (tactical and individual) rather than Finland being better. We're about the same level as them, so it's good to beat them twice.

Szmodics was lively as ever and I think he should start most games from now on. He's the sort of player who will go on a run of scoring once he gets off the mark.

I was impressed by Scales, who seemed more aggressive than usual and clearly got the memo from HH calling up Duffy for more "steel".

Johnston redeemed himself with the assist, but he almost cost us with some schoolboy stuff, taking too many touches and turning into traffic at the edge of his own box then nearly injuring his own team-mate. Just before the goal (which he did brilliantly for) I was so frustrated that I thought he needed to be taken off at half-time. Better teams punish those mistakes.

I don't think Cullen is mobile enough to cover the ground needed in a two-man midfield and he is clearly much better anchoring a three. He did a bit better in the second half, but there were a lot of gaps and, with Festy given licence to go forward, Doherty was a bit exposed at times. We got away with it because it was Finland, but we definitely need three in the middle vs England otherwise they will mangle us.

Kelleher really looked solid too. I think he is clearly a better option than Bazunu going forward, but he really needs to be playing regularly.

In terms of managing the game, I felt we were a bit over-eager in the final five minutes, we gave the ball back to them a few times looking for a second goal when we should have been taking the temperature down.

Going back to two-in-the-middle, you really need players with an engine and athleticism. We obviously don't have anyone at his level, but I'd love a player in the mould of Roy Keane or Tchouameni to come through. The type who gets about, wins tackles, intercepts the ball and can bomb forward too and spark attacks. Is Bosun Lawal in that mould? I can't think of too many off the top.

[~YTM~]

We were lucky to get away with the win, but I think a lot of the issues were self-inflicted (tactical and individual) rather than Finland being better. We're about the same level as them, so it's good to beat them twice.

Szmodics was lively as ever and I think he should start most games from now on. He's the sort of player who will go on a run of scoring once he gets off the mark.

I was impressed by Scales, who seemed more aggressive than usual and clearly got the memo from HH calling up Duffy for more "steel".

Johnston redeemed himself with the assist, but he almost cost us with some schoolboy stuff, taking too many touches and turning into traffic at the edge of his own box then nearly injuring his own team-mate. Just before the goal (which he did brilliantly for) I was so frustrated that I thought he needed to be taken off at half-time. Better teams punish those mistakes.

I don't think Cullen is mobile enough to cover the ground needed in a two-man midfield and he is clearly much better anchoring a three. He did a bit better in the second half, but there were a lot of gaps and, with Festy given licence to go forward, Doherty was a bit exposed at times. We got away with it because it was Finland, but we definitely need three in the middle vs England otherwise they will mangle us.

Kelleher really looked solid too. I think he is clearly a better option than Bazunu going forward, but he really needs to be playing regularly.

In terms of managing the game, I felt we were a bit over-eager in the final five minutes, we gave the ball back to them a few times looking for a second goal when we should have been taking the temperature down.

Going back to two-in-the-middle, you really need players with an engine and athleticism. We obviously don't have anyone at his level, but I'd love a player in the mould of Roy Keane or Tchouameni to come through. The type who gets about, wins tackles, intercepts the ball and can bomb forward too and spark attacks. Is Bosun Lawal in that mould? I can't think of too many off the top.

For HHs 4-4-2 I think you need two defensive midfielders playing as two 6s. Like he ain't everyone's cup of tea but Glen Whelan would have suited what HH wants. Knight doesn't because he's all action. Wants to get on the ball, press, and not disciplined enough to just sit and protect the defence.

Think we'll end up with the same issues last night playing Knight in a two man midfield if we played Lawal. He's not disciplined enough to play in a double pivot and can get caught ball watching. He's got positives going forward but will leave us overly exposed in midfield.

Though seeing how Stoke are using Moran this season maybe they'll play Lawal in a midfield two once he's fit again and we'll get a good chance to see how he gets on there. But on his pre injury form as a midfielder he's more suited to a three man midfield like Knight.

[SkStu]

We were lucky to get away with the win, but I think a lot of the issues were self-inflicted (tactical and individual) rather than Finland being better. We're about the same level as them, so it's good to beat them twice.

Szmodics was lively as ever and I think he should start most games from now on. He's the sort of player who will go on a run of scoring once he gets off the mark.

I was impressed by Scales, who seemed more aggressive than usual and clearly got the memo from HH calling up Duffy for more "steel".

Johnston redeemed himself with the assist, but he almost cost us with some schoolboy stuff, taking too many touches and turning into traffic at the edge of his own box then nearly injuring his own team-mate. Just before the goal (which he did brilliantly for) I was so frustrated that I thought he needed to be taken off at half-time. Better teams punish those mistakes.

I don't think Cullen is mobile enough to cover the ground needed in a two-man midfield and he is clearly much better anchoring a three. He did a bit better in the second half, but there were a lot of gaps and, with Festy given licence to go forward, Doherty was a bit exposed at times. We got away with it because it was Finland, but we definitely need three in the middle vs England otherwise they will mangle us.

Kelleher really looked solid too. I think he is clearly a better option than Bazunu going forward, but he really needs to be playing regularly.

In terms of managing the game, I felt we were a bit over-eager in the final five minutes, we gave the ball back to them a few times looking for a second goal when we should have been taking the temperature down.

Going back to two-in-the-middle, you really need players with an engine and athleticism. We obviously don't have anyone at his level, but I'd love a player in the mould of Roy Keane or Tchouameni to come through. The type who gets about, wins tackles, intercepts the ball and can bomb forward too and spark attacks. Is Bosun Lawal in that mould? I can't think of too many off the top.

Good post. I had similar thoughts on the performances but was also impressed by Collins and thought O'Dowda far exceeded my expectations at LB. Azaz was a touch of class when he came on - and needed.

In terms of your last paragraph, the attributes sound a lot like what Molumby can bring but I assume you are looking for someone who brings a bit more composure. Havent seen enough of Lawal play to comment but he is definitely a physical, strong, pacy midfielder. Connell has a bit more of a deep lying playmaker style about him and not as physical or quick but not glaringly weak in either category either. We just dont really have the obvious talent coming through there.

[nigel-harps1954]

I had a generous amount of pints before the game in town, and as a result, I don't just remember too much of the game, and I think it's better left that way.

I had to squint through one eye to focus on Kelleher saving the penalty. So there's that much at least.

[geysir]

I don't think we are better than Finland, as it stands now it's quite the opposite, but somehow we managed to beat the better team both home and away (though that has merit in itself), the home win in no small part due to the performances of Kelleher, Scales and Collins - the last line of defense . There's an amount of pundits and Irish fans who have have a sense of entitlement that defies the reality. Finland are a much better organised team with players who are technically proficient, tactically have a plan and they put together some really good moves. I don't know why their coach didn't bring on Finland's talisman, Pukki, much earlier in both games because he still has that dynamism even in his supposedly declining years. I think in both games he came close to rescuing the game just by dint of his prowess in the few minutes he was played. If Finland had managed a draw or/and win these last two games I doubt if anybody could have claimed with any cred that we wuz robbed.

Midfield remains an enduring Achilles heel. A first team that picks itself looks a long way off as the squad is loaded with differently talented players of a similar standard. Somehow Heimar has to find his first team, the top reserves and formulate a gameplan for the next campaign, I think that he can do.

[liamoo11]

Good post. I had similar thoughts on the performances but was also impressed by Collins and thought O'Dowda far exceeded my expectations at LB. Azaz was a touch of class when he came on - and needed.

In terms of your last paragraph, the attributes sound a lot like what Molumby can bring but I assume you are looking for someone who brings a bit more composure. Havent seen enough of Lawal play to comment but he is definitely a physical, strong, pacy midfielder. Connell has a bit more of a deep lying playmaker style about him and not as physical or quick but not glaringly weak in either category either. We just dont really have the obvious talent coming through there.

I thought molumby s hour at home to Greece was the best centre mid performance so far under HH. Disciplined good passing aggressive andvtried to be expansive

[Predator]

In terms of your last paragraph, the attributes sound a lot like what Molumby can bring but I assume you are looking for someone who brings a bit more composure. Havent seen enough of Lawal play to comment but he is definitely a physical, strong, pacy midfielder. Connell has a bit more of a deep lying playmaker style about him and not as physical or quick but not glaringly weak in either category either. We just dont really have the obvious talent coming through there.I am a fan of Molumby and he brings what Trap used to call enthuasiamus to the team (Kenny, who made him captain of his U21s, described him as a "chaotic" player). His decision-making and passing is much better than he is given credit for but he does have a headless streak now and then. Would love to see him go up a level and I think he has it in him, but it needs discipline. I've not seen enough of Lawal either, but he looked heads and shoulders above the rest at League One level. As we know though, there's a big jump from there to Championship and again to international level.

[Predator]

There's an amount of pundits and Irish fans who have have a sense of entitlement that defies the reality.
A lot of us have not yet come to terms with our new place in football's new world order. Robbie Brady made the point (https://www.the42.ie/robbie-brady-the42-5919631-Nov2022/) a few years ago that every game difficult for Ireland now.

"People that want to see us playing football, enjoying the games, I see the lads saying, ‘Ah, it was enjoyable to play in the game tonight’, and then you are still going to have people giving out saying, ‘sh*te result again, probably the worst result in Irish history’.

And do you know what the thing is? No one is sh*te anymore. Honest to God, you play Qatar; technically, they’re unbelievable. I don’t know. You can’t please everyone. Everyone does their best."

[Jolly Red Giant]

Just so we understand the nature of this Finnish team - and they are not playing at the same level of the Irish players

We had five players playing at PL level (in reality it should have been six if O'Shea had started) - admittedly not all play regularly, but some do. Of the remaining Irish players, one is playing for the best team in Scotland and in the CL, three are playing for teams in the top six of the Championship, a fourth in the top ten. All are Championship level of higher. Of the subs, two are in the PL, and the lowest of the other three is 13th in the Championship.

Where do the Finish players play - one in the Bundesliga, one in the German second division, two in Poland, one in Greece, one in Holland, one in the Czech Republic, one for a team near the bottom of Ligue 1 (probably their best player), and three in America. Of the subs, one just promoted to Seria A with Venezia (currently bottom), one in the fourth tier in Poland, one in Finland, one plays for Exeter City and one in America. Not all of them are regular first-teamers. Two of the 16 are playing in the CL and only one is a regular (the goalkeeper).

Most of the Irish players play at a level significantly higher than the Finnish players - yet they were dominated by Finland for most of the game. You can talk about stats - and that Ireland got more corners - Finland had more possession, more shots, more shots on target, more touches in the opposition's box, fewer saves by the goalkeeper - they pressured the Irish players for the entire game and at times they passed the ball around at will with no Irish player able to get near them. Ireland won because Kelleher saved a penalty and the follow-up, because the Finns hit the post twice and because of Collins blocking shots. We won a game we should have lost and we were outplayed by a team that should have no ability to do so.

A win is a win - but the performance was as bad as any under Kenny - there was zero signs of progress - indeed it looks nothing more than a continuation of the poor performances when O'Shea was running the show.

[third policeman]

Absolutely spot on. On current evidence HH is not the solution. Let’s see what happens tomorrow but if things persist at tgis shambolic level, we need to call time a lot more quickly than we did with Kenny.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think we are better than Finland, as it stands now it's quite the opposite, but somehow we managed to beat the better team both home and away (though that has merit in itself), the home win in no small part due to the performances of Kelleher, Scales and Collins - the last line of defense . There's an amount of pundits and Irish fans who have have a sense of entitlement that defies the reality. Finland are a much better organised team with players who are technically proficient, tactically have a plan and they put together some really good moves. I don't know why their coach didn't bring on Finland's talisman, Pukki, much earlier in both games because he still has that dynamism even in his supposedly declining years. I think in both games he came close to rescuing the game just by dint of his prowess in the few minutes he was played. If Finland had managed a draw or/and win these last two games I doubt if anybody could have claimed with any cred that we wuz robbed.

Midfield remains an enduring Achilles heel. A first team that picks itself looks a long way off as the squad is loaded with differently talented players of a similar standard. Somehow Heimar has to find his first team, the top reserves and formulate a gameplan for the next campaign, I think that he can do.I think that Kelleher / Collins / Scales triangle is the strongest part of our team.

Amidst all the negativity, Doc missed a sitter and Johnston nearly scored a trademark cut-inside goal, that just didn’t bend. I think their keeper did very well to make a full one handed stop late on when I was expecting it to fall to (didn’t see who) for a tap in.

Central midfield the big worry, as always.

[Eirambler]

I think it's only fair to balance JRG's post by pointing out that the Finland setup is a long established one, with a manager who has been there for eight years. So you are dealing with a side comprising - I agree - limited players, but who are very familiar with the setup they are going into.

Whereas we have a squad almost completely devoid of experienced players in the 30+ age group and a coaching setup that is only on it's fifth game. Also we are (very visibly) trying to completely unwind the previous three to four year period where we were taken completely in the wrong direction in terms of playing style relative to the skill sets of our players. And, even allowing for all that, we still beat them twice.

Personally, I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions on the new management setup either way at this point. For me, I like a lot of what I'm hearing in terms of the ideas behind what's being tried here - faster, more direct football that doesn't resort to kick and rush. What I'm seeing in the performances so far is more of a mixed bag, but it is still very early days.

Overall the Kenny era - especially the desperately poor last 12 months - and the shambles that was that O'Shea/McCarthy caretaker period that came after it are still fresh in my mind. Compared to both of those periods, we're already well ahead. But that's not saying a whole lot so it's not unreasonable to be aiming a bit higher than that at the same time.

[Stuttgart88]

Gary Bree’s analysis is good imho. On both the Indo Sport Podcast yesterday and an Indo article today, both saying same thing. Recognises it’s only 5 games and some personnel unavailable but there’s still no real sign of a philosophy or way of playing. Also questioned rationale of calling up Duffy (“not winning enough duels”) and not looking at McGuinness or O’Brien if that’s the case (which he disputes anyway). Says relying on 2 in CM is a worry. But he’s only mildly critical, not hysterically so. Likes HH’s honesty to the media. In the written article he says Wales seem to be responding immediately to Bellamy’s methods but says Bellamy had a head start, knowing all the players whereas HH should have had a longer lead-in, but FAI’s process took forever.

[elatedscum]

This was open on a tab after the match but not posted:

Kind of a weird game, hard to know how I feel. On one hand, rode our luck hugely given the woodwork came to our rescue twice and Kelleher saved a penalty. Worth saying that we probably should have had 3, the offside goal looked inches off (watching live) and the Doherty header at the back post was a serious miss, along with some extended periods of pressure.

Weirdly there were a lot of encouraging individual performances - don’t even need to talk about Caoimhin, both the centre halves were strong, Collins was much better than the Greece game and Scales looks clearly good enough. Doherty, Ebosele and Ferguson had these nice bits of interplay on the right where we were comfortable and creative in possession. Ferguson looks much closer to himself than he did a month ago or two months ago, and Festy looks like a capable replacement for Cheo, he’s not the finished article but he’s got raw pace to scare anyone and really quick feet. Knight had a good game, Cullen was solid - we were a little stretched at times but I don’t think that’s on them. Szmodics was very sharp and looked quicker than I’d ever seen, probably suited him to be central, even though he plays wide left for his club - Johnston totally outmatched his fullback and O’Dowda looked better defensively than we’ve seen him. There were also a few decent cameos off the bench…

The main feeling of disappointment is in that at times we were outplayed in midfield and they dominated possession for large periods and occasionally we just launched it long and ceded possession but when we actually tried to play, we were decent. I think Finland are a really poor team, they’re a shadow of the side that we played back in 2020 that went to the Euros just after, so that’s worrying. Saying that, can’t think of any other chances they had apart from the ones they nearly scored, and the one chance that the lad drop short of his centre half and snatched over the bar - I saw we had 12 shots (excluding the offside goal) to their 6.

Great to win and happy to reserve judgement, realistically for another 12 months. We’ve beaten Finland home and away, needing a huge amount of luck in both games, lost home and away to Greece and were absolutely outclassed by England. That’s probably par at best - but these windows have been really trying to find time to work with players, players play for their clubs on Saturday and Sunday, have recovery on Monday and Tuesday, light training Wednesday and play Thursday, recovery on Friday and Saturday, play Sunday. Pre-covid, you used to have say Saturday - Wednesday, where you’d have 6 days to work with the squad before game 1 and 4 days till game 2. The new calendar makes the job nearly impossible

[Eirambler]

Just on the international calendar, I believe it's changing soon to having a four game international window each Autumn, so that might help a bit. The current setup with the three short windows is messy. Not sure if that's coming in as soon as next season though. Hopefully the squad get a decent period together in June ahead of the WC qualifiers if it turns out they're not starting for us until next Autumn.

[tetsujin1979]

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