View Full Version : Suggested change to 33 game league
This is just a thought that occurred to me, and I'd be interested to see what everyone thought about it. Its a radical proposal, unused in any other European league (AFAIK), so the initial reaction might me negative, so it would be good if you could think about it before dismissing it.
The idea comes from observing US sports and adapting an idea they use. The ways of US sports are mostly bonkers, so I'm broadly not in favour of replicating them, but this one has some merit. In Baseball for example, there are 6 conferences (mini-leagues) where teams within each conference play mostly against each other, but also to a lesser extent against teams from other conferences. Points (wins and losses) can be gained in any of these games, but the league is still only between the 5 or so teams within each conference.
My idea would be abolish the idea of having imbalanced home and away fixtures for teams in the Premier Division (33 games), so that teams would only play one home and one away fixture against each other Premier Division club (22 games). These games could be suplemented by 10 games against the teams in the First Division (either home or away), for a total of 32 games.
Obviously this replaces one imbalanced fixture list for another, but playing imbalanced games against First Division teams would not be as controversial as imbalanced games against the top Premier oposition.
It would also mean that all the clubs in the eL would play against every other club in the eL without having to resort to a single league structure. The First Division would no longer be such a graveyard, because small clubs would be guaranteed a few really large games a season. And there would be many more local derbies: Derry-Harps-Sligo, Waterford-Kilkenny, Cork-Cobh, Drogs-Dundalk, Limerick-Cork. These derbies would be played every year, rather than every couple of years as is currently the case.
joeraki
19/09/2005, 8:01 PM
You must of been really bored to come up with that :D
Conor H
19/09/2005, 8:02 PM
Maybe not the worst idea in the world but certainly couldn't work now.The 1st divison is ****e so lets say the leagues were united it would simply mean that after a couple of games teams like Monaghan etc who start geeting hammered would draw crowds of over 150 to games.That would do little towards promoting the league.Teams in the 1st Division need to get alot stronger and in alot of cases more adaquete facilities 1st.
You must of been really bored to come up with that :DSlow day at work! ;)
ThatGuy
19/09/2005, 10:18 PM
That is actually an interesting concept for a league like this one. I think that a lot of Premier clubs would be against it because of the fact that they would be missing at least a couple of big gates a season though.
Dr.Nightdub
19/09/2005, 10:28 PM
Sorry CRC but that sounds like an awful idea - 22 real games interspersed with 10 friendlies. What's the point in Premier teams playing First Div teams if the results don't count towards anything?
Sorry CRC but that sounds like an awful idea - 22 real games interspersed with 10 friendlies. What's the point in Premier teams playing First Div teams if the results don't count towards anything?
The results would count the same as any other game.
This has been said many times but i think the only way forward for football in this country is an All-Ireland league and a major television contract to go with it if the powers decide to do it..The thought of Cork City,Shels,Rovers,Derry,Bohs,Linfield,Portadown,Gl entoran,Galway Utd,Waterford Utd,Limerick all in the same league a few years from now is a nice thought an a great way forward for football in this country..
This has been said many times but i think the only way forward for football in this country is an All-Ireland league and a major television contract to go with it if the powers decide to do it..The thought of Cork City,Shels,Rovers,Derry,Bohs,Linfield,Portadown,Gl entoran,Galway Utd,Waterford Utd,Limerick all in the same league a few years from now is a nice thought an a great way forward for football in this country..
In a perfect world this is exactly what I would like, but if every debate descended to "we need an All-Ireland league" we would never have gotten summer football.
What's your opinion on the suggestion, in the absence of an all-Ireland league?
BohsFans
19/09/2005, 11:41 PM
and what's the advantage for Dublin clubs??
Sure it might be good for Athlone's finances if they have Bohs, Pat's and the scum travelling down there once a season, but it doesn't do anything for us!!
Well my opinion is that the setanta cup is obviously a stepping stone to an All-Ireland league without a doubt..i would not be surprised if this does not happen within the next 3/5 years..something has to be done and i can see them just surprising us all with this someday out of the blue..
On your idea above it would be to complicated for the people that run this league but it seems a decent idea...not sure would it work here though..i dont think its time for that right now though and my reasons are simply because i think there are better options(again i refer back to an All-Ireland league..
One more thing...it sounds bad but the likes of UCD,Dublin City who could be back up are bad for the future of our league..they create no interest for new fans in any way..they hardly have any support but what can be done about clubs like these?.we can hardly dump clubs out of the league for lack of support but i think things have to change with clubs like these or else phase them out of our league..
Student Mullet
20/09/2005, 12:00 AM
if every debate descended to "we need an All-Ireland league" we would never have gotten summer football.It didn't take long for it to descend to "too many Dublin clubs" either.
On the main topic, it's a novel idea. It might reduce the gap between the divisions a bit.
Why are we obcessed with changing league formats, team numbers & seasons in the vain hope of improving the eL?
TheOwl
20/09/2005, 11:02 AM
I actually quite like this idea.
All-Ireland league it still my pref, but this at least offers up an exciting alternative.
Why are we obcessed with changing league formats, team numbers & seasons in the vain hope of improving the eL?
Because the irish are a nation of glory hunters and big game junkies, so we have to give them big games to go to.
No doubt there's no quick fix, but that doesn't mean there's not something better.
Drumcondra Red
20/09/2005, 11:21 AM
I'd also rather Saturday evening games rather then Friday evening to allow the attendence of more away fixtures!
The op suggestion is very similar to one that was knocking around in the old eL mb days, and I actually thought had merit.
It'd be a regional split of the entire league, each team in the west playing each other twice and then one inter conference series. Play off for the title ala super league RL. You could playoff down through the entire league with a finals day at Lansdowne (e.g. Championship, Shield, Trophy). That would mean everyone goes into the last weeks with something to play for.
Hopefully the next stage of the gensis report will do the research on what we need to do. I'd be sceptical even a huge marketing budget would do much on it's own tbh.
anto eile
20/09/2005, 1:15 PM
This is just a thought that occurred to me, and I'd be interested to see what everyone thought about it. Its a radical proposal, unused in any other European league (AFAIK), so the initial reaction might me negative, so it would be good if you could think about it before dismissing it.
The idea comes from observing US sports and adapting an idea they use. The ways of US sports are mostly bonkers, so I'm broadly not in favour of replicating them, but this one has some merit. In Baseball for example, there are 6 conferences (mini-leagues) where teams within each conference play mostly against each other, but also to a lesser extent against teams from other conferences. Points (wins and losses) can be gained in any of these games, but the league is still only between the 5 or so teams within each conference.
My idea would be abolish the idea of having imbalanced home and away fixtures for teams in the Premier Division (33 games), so that teams would only play one home and one away fixture against each other Premier Division club (22 games). These games could be suplemented by 10 games against the teams in the First Division (either home or away), for a total of 32 games.
Obviously this replaces one imbalanced fixture list for another, but playing imbalanced games against First Division teams would not be as controversial as imbalanced games against the top Premier oposition.
It would also mean that all the clubs in the eL would play against every other club in the eL without having to resort to a single league structure. The First Division would no longer be such a graveyard, because small clubs would be guaranteed a few really large games a season. And there would be many more local derbies: Derry-Harps-Sligo, Waterford-Kilkenny, Cork-Cobh, Drogs-Dundalk, Limerick-Cork. These derbies would be played every year, rather than every couple of years as is currently the case.
eh.. no
Krstic
20/09/2005, 1:53 PM
This is just a thought that occurred to me
Sweet Jaysus man, stop thinking ;)
Dunno if it would be possible on regional grounds Macy. The likes of Connaught would be very easy to get out of & provide no real preparation for the play-off stages, whereas the 'Dublin section' would be extremely competitive (arguably). It might end up a bit like the hurling championship of old.
Couldn't be arsed typing it all out again - but basically an east-west or north-south split, with the Dublin clubs split too.
superfrank
20/09/2005, 3:14 PM
They only do it in the US cos the country's so ****ing big!!
I don't see any value in this.
pineapple stu
20/09/2005, 3:20 PM
One more thing...the likes of UCD, Dublin City who could be back up are bad for the future of our league..I think [we should] phase them out of our league.
What a remarkably stupid post!
This has been dismissed so many times before, however - primarily on the grounds that no-one wants to come into the league - that I'm not going to waste my time dismissing it again.
that I'm not going to waste my time dismissing it again.
Eh, isn't that what you are doing?
:D
What a remarkably stupid post!
This has been dismissed so many times before, however - primarily on the grounds that no-one wants to come into the league - that I'm not going to waste my time dismissing it again.
Dont make me laugh Pineapple man...UCD and Dublin City should be in the Leinster Senior League and no better..hardly 1,000 fans between them and as far as i can see there should be a way of getting them out of the league completely..i am sure there are clubs that could generate more interest in our league around the country than the likes of your club and CHFEFC...the league would be a lot better with a Kerry or Tipp team to replace you..UCD played at HOME lastnight in a Cup final and were outnumbered by opposition support from the other end of the country...and how many does your ground hold?..FFS man face up to reality and understand that UCD and Dublin City are two teams in our league that turn people off supporting our league in the 1st place..i think it was your reply that was the STUPID post college boy.. ;)
...UCD and Dublin City should be in the Leinster Senior League and no better.....the league would be a lot better with a Kerry or Tipp team to replace you.There's nothing stopping a Kerry or Tipp team from applying to join the league. There's no rule that says the league must have only 22 teams. I'm sure the first division could cope with 12 teams rather than 10 (as it did up to last year). Both teams (and UCD especially) are there on merrit, so you can't just expell them on a whim that you don't like them.
On my first point about changing to 22+10, rather than 33 games, I think that 33 games is a daft number. There was lots of controversy when the fixtures came out and Cork were drawn to play their main rivals away twice (though at this point no one thought Derry would be their main challenger). The advantage of the extra home game against your nearest rival is fundamentally unfair (and could yet be the difference between Derry and Cork).
A 22+10 system would parity between the main rivals in the Premier (though not necessarily in the First). It would mean there would be no controversy (on a fixtures basis) over who would be the eircom League Champions. It may still have an impact on the First Division title race (who would play 27+12) but since the main objective in the First Division is promotion, if there were two automatic places this wouldn't matter too much.
pineapple stu
21/09/2005, 7:01 PM
UCD played at HOME last night in a Cup final and were outnumbered by opposition support from the other end of the country
What are you basing this latest piece of complete nonsense on? The crowd was 2174 (most official figure I heard). Derry brought 600. There were maybe 100-200 or so neutrals. The balance were UCD fans. This also puts the lie to your idea about us and DC combined having less than 1000 fans.
The league would be better off with a Tipp team? Like Thurles Town? Great crowds they got, in a great stadium.
UCD and DC turn Joe Barstool off the eL? What about the likes of Rovers, Ollie Byrne, clashes at Bohs-Rovers and other Dublin derby games?
Fool.
There's nothing stopping a Kerry or Tipp team from applying to join the league. There's no rule that says the league must have only 22 teams. I'm sure the first division could cope with 12 teams rather than 10 (as it did up to last year). Both teams (and UCD especially) are there on merrit, so you can't just expell them on a whim that you don't like them.
I am not trying to sound smart here but i am not silly enough to think we can just get rid of teams because i dont like them..UCD/Home Farm are two teams in this league that make our league so amateur looking..people can say that they have as much about them as lesser 1st division sides but i would not agree..they have no potential fan wise and for some reason in Home Farms case someone seems to be wasting money on them with no return..most 1st division clubs if run properly have potential with fairly big fan bases but these two clubs are just sickening..i men a college in a top league..what a joke.. :confused:
What are you basing this latest piece of complete nonsense on? The crowd was 2174 (most official figure I heard). Derry brought 600. There were maybe 100-200 or so neutrals. The balance were UCD fans.
100/200 neutrals...now how did you come to that number then?..did you actually count the UCD fans yourself??..and you are saying now that UCD had 1300 fans at the game??.did you ever have that amount for a game?..
This is what i would reckon in my non-college degree estimation..
Atten :2174
Derry :600
Neutral Support :800 approx..
UCD :774.. ;)
pineapple stu
21/09/2005, 7:23 PM
100/200 neutrals...now how did you come to that number then?..did you actually count the UCD fans yourself??..and you are saying now that UCD had 1300 fans at the game??.did you ever have that amount for a game?..
In order...
1) It's a guesstimate. I saw no other eL jerseys. There were a couple of Longford fans, but I didn't recognise anyone else.
2) I didn't have to once I knew how many Derry and neutral fans there were.
3) Yes
4) Yes. There are a lot of people who'll come out to support UCD for the big games. They generally need a letter in the post to tell them about it and other kicks in the arse before they come, but it's been done before.
This is what i would reckon in my non-college degree estimation..
Atten :2174
Derry :600
Neutral Support :800 approx..
UCD :774.. ;)
Thank God I went to college...then I'd be able to see the idiocy of saying we were outnumbered by Derry and then saying we had nearly 200 more fans than them! ;)
800 is nonsense. The cheer when UCD scored was a good bit louder - and was spread further around the ground - than when Derry scored.
The cheer when UCD scored was a good bit louder - and was spread further around the ground - than when Derry scored.
I see you had your sound measuring equipment at Belfield with you then?.. :D
UCD/Home Farm are two teams in this league that make our league so amateur looking..
they have no potential fan wise and for some reason in Home Farms case someone seems to be wasting money on them with no return..
UCD have almost the whole of south-east Dublin to themselves. That's huge potential.
i men a college in a top league..what a joke.. :confused:Its not a joke. You might not find any University teams in the Premiersh*t or Serie A, but it happens all over latin America, and I'm guessing that Sportul Studentesc in Romania is a college team too. College teams in the US get enormous support from their alumni, even crap ones. There's huge potential for UCD to tap into this (more than they currently do).
I would actually go back to a sixteen team premier division. I think we need to be trying to increase the appeal of the league, not narrowing it. Sixteen teams would allow the likes of Sligo, Dundalk, Galway Athlone etc, who have been succesful in the past and have the potential for good crowds, the chance to return to the premier league. You could always allow 2 extra teams into the 1st division to keep it at 12 (e.g Tralee, Mullingar). People go to games when they matter, and that's a proven fact.
I would actually go back to a sixteen team premier division. I think we need to be trying to increase the appeal of the league, not narrowing it. Sixteen teams would allow the likes of Sligo, Dundalk, Galway Athlone etc, who have been succesful in the past and have the potential for good crowds, the chance to return to the premier league. You could always allow 2 extra teams into the 1st division to keep it at 12 (e.g Tralee, Mullingar).
Current Premier = 12
Add 4 from 1st Div = 16 (so far, so good)
Current 1st Div = 10
Take 4 for Prem = 6
Add 2 new teams = 8 (looks like Toy D didn't take honours maths!)
People go to games when they matter, and that's a proven fact. I'd be in favour of a 16 team division, but there is a danger that more games would become meaningless than they currently are. The 22+10 proposal would keep the divisions at relatively small sizes, but allow Sligo, Dundalk, Galway, Athlone and everyone else to play in big games even without being in the Premier.
A face
21/09/2005, 10:09 PM
The cheer when UCD scored was a good bit louder - and was spread further around the ground - than when Derry scored.
Stu stu stu .... what can i say !?!?!
Just because you are in a crowd beside some fans when they cheer, doesn't make them louder .... i know the Derry fans were further away but from where they were standing, it could have been equally as loud, if not even louder. Its the whole 'near' and 'far' (http://www.sesameworkshop.org/uploaded-images/12512494/ppa_printme_image-4.gif) thing. :D
Stu stu stu .... what can i say !?!?!
Its the whole 'near' and 'far' (http://www.sesameworkshop.org/uploaded-images/12512494/ppa_printme_image-4.gif) thing. :D
Very good Aface.... :D
Poor Student
21/09/2005, 10:19 PM
I am not trying to sound smart here but i am not silly enough to think we can just get rid of teams because i dont like them..UCD/Home Farm are two teams in this league that make our league so amateur looking..people can say that they have as much about them as lesser 1st division sides but i would not agree..they have no potential fan wise and for some reason in Home Farms case someone seems to be wasting money on them with no return..most 1st division clubs if run properly have potential with fairly big fan bases but these two clubs are just sickening..i men a college in a top league..what a joke.. :confused:
Bloody hell, cop on will you? 3 seperate players called into the U-21s in the last month make the rest of you look amateur? You have a plethora of internationals yourself then? Since when in the name of God is fanbase a quantifiable criteria for any bloody league?! The regularity with which this same hackneyed agrument is pulled out with its same lump of uninformed facts and garbage is nothing should of ridiculous.
A face
21/09/2005, 10:21 PM
Bloody hell, cop on will you? 3 seperate players called into the U-21s in the last month make the rest of you look amateur? You have a plethora of internationals yourself then? Since when in the name of God is fanbase a quantifiable criteria for any bloody league?! The regularity with which this same hackneyed agrument is pulled out with its same lump of uninformed facts and garbage is nothing should of ridiculous.
Did he hit a nerve ?? :p
Poor Student
21/09/2005, 10:25 PM
Did he hit a nerve ?? :p
He did actually and I'm not in a particularly good mood after last night. A lot of hard work goes into our club, from the staff to the fans. We won our place in the Premier Division by merit and we're looking like staying there on merit. Just as we've fought our way to the latter stages of both cups. We've even achieved European qualification still within recent enough history. Fanbase size is not a quantifiable criteria. What is he on about? :confused:
Bloody hell, cop on will you? 3 seperate players called into the U-21s in the last month make the rest of you look amateur? You have a plethora of internationals yourself then? Since when in the name of God is fanbase a quantifiable criteria for any bloody league?! The regularity with which this same hackneyed agrument is pulled out with its same lump of uninformed facts and garbage is nothing should of ridiculous.
plethora...hackneyed...quantifiable criteria....christ almighty i cant beat that.. :D
But i stand by what i said...UCD should be sent to the chopping block...no fans/poor ground/no appeal/no ambition/will never make any strides in Europe/no hope/...
Poor Student
21/09/2005, 10:31 PM
plethora...hackneyed...quantifiable criteria....christ almighty i cant beat that.. :D
But i stand by what i said...UCD should be sent to the chopping block...no fans/poor ground/no appeal/no ambition/will never make any strides in Europe/no hope/...
Ok, apart from poor ground which is to be addressed none of those are quantifiable criteria. If you're not joking, in other words that means critera which cannot be measured. You cannot measure a fanbase, you cannot measure ambition, you cannot measure appeal, you cannot measure chances of making strides in Europe. Anyway insisting that all clubs could make strides in Europe is an awfully odd criteria for staying within league football.
The league table says there are only 6 clubs in this country better than us on the park and you want shot of us? As I repeat, we've produced 3 players worthy of U-21 call ups in the one month. Any other clubs doing better than that? What kind or LOI and football fan in general are you to want to remove such a club from your league?
EnDai
21/09/2005, 11:46 PM
UCD should be chopped? Madness!
Promoted to the Preimier Division, on merit.
League Cup Runners up 2005, on merit.
Still hunting the FAI Cup (and therefore European football, and the Setanta Cup), on merit.
Look set to survive more comfortably than Pats, on merit. (I didn't mention Rovers due to the points deductions).
Sure, yeah, lets turf those ambitionless tossers out and promote someone like Monaghan to the Premier Divison and Mullingar Town into the first division. Sheesh, some people! :)
mypost
22/09/2005, 1:30 AM
There was lots of controversy when the fixtures came out and Cork were drawn to play their main rivals away twice. The advantage of the extra home game against your nearest rival is fundamentally unfair (and could yet be the difference between Derry and Cork).
Rubbish!! There's no controversy, as every team ends up playing the SAME amount of games. Due to our country's size, we cannot have a 12-team league played in any other format. That's the way it is, so get used to it. You win or lose the league over 33 games, not on 2 or 3. If Derry end up losing the league, it won't be due to their result at Cork in November, but rather by their dropped points at places like Longford, Drogheda, Pats, and UCD that will decide how they lost the league, games that you would expect title contenders to win.
(though at this point no one thought Derry would be their main challenger).
Which proves my point. The league is contested over 33 games, and Derry are the club to emerge as Cork's main challenger in the league this year. They, like everybody else's fate, good or bad, is decided by how many points they picked up from 33 games, not by making an extra trip.
The league is contested over 33 games, and Derry are the club to emerge as Cork's main challenger in the league this year. They, like everybody else's fate, good or bad, is decided by how many points they picked up from 33 games, not by making an extra trip.wrong.
This season
Cork beat Derry at home 2-0
Derry beat Cork at home 3-1
all other things being equal (like points picked up against other teams) Cork have a distinct advantage by playing Derry at home one extra time, because they would probably win. That's unfair.
If you don't believe that this arrangement causes controversy, see these threads: one (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=22233) , two (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=22241) , three (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=22228).
Ironically they're from the Cork forum, but the point is that there can't be much confidence in the league champions if there's less that three points between them and their challangers and they won their extra game at home. If Cork beat Derry in the last game at the cross, and finish on, say, 72 points and Derry finish on 70 or 71, could you honestly say that it was a fair competition between the two.
BTW - I'm not trying to make pre-emptive excuses for Derry not winning the league, I'm just using this years example to highlight the inequality in the 33 game system.
A face
22/09/2005, 10:18 AM
BTW - I'm not trying to make pre-emptive excuses for Derry not winning the league, I'm just using this years example to highlight the inequality in the 33 game system.
So that not you getting a bit hot around the collar no ??? :p
Only kidding .... totally agree with your point. I was giving out yards at the time over it, but it has woren me down and broken me at this stage, i i just give up !! :p
CHF were properly elected to the league as a new club - you couldn't just chuck them out...
pineapple stu
22/09/2005, 12:42 PM
Just because you are in a crowd beside some fans when they cheer, doesn't make them louder .... i know the Derry fans were further away but from where they were standing, it could have been equally as loud, if not even louder. Its the whole 'near' and 'far' (http://www.sesameworkshop.org/uploaded-images/12512494/ppa_printme_image-4.gif) thing. :D
Nice link!
I was talking to some people over in the hospitality area, incidentally. The far side of the ground to where I was. Should be admissible as evidence? ;)
no fans/poor ground/no appeal/no ambition/will never make any strides in Europe/no hope
1) 1000+ on Tuesday. 1000=0?
2) Moving into a new ground in the next year or two
3) When it was announced that a Setanta Cup would go to the League Cup winners, we ditched our policy of playing an U-21 team in the League Cup.
4) UCD 0-1 Everton on aggregate? UCD 3-3 Velbazhd Kyustendil on aggregate? Deluded Cork fans may waffle on about how their 2-0 win in Lithuania was the best eL result ever (a thread I think I saw here afterwards), but that doesn't compare to either of the two above results (especially given the home defeat which followed).
anto eile
22/09/2005, 4:29 PM
Nice link!
I was talking to some people over in the hospitality area, incidentally. The far side of the ground to where I was. Should be admissible as evidence? ;)
1) 1000+ on Tuesday. 1000=0?
2) Moving into a new ground in the next year or two
3) When it was announced that a Setanta Cup would go to the League Cup winners, we ditched our policy of playing an U-21 team in the League Cup.
4) UCD 0-1 Everton on aggregate? UCD 3-3 Velbazhd Kyustendil on aggregate? Deluded Cork fans may waffle on about how their 2-0 win in Lithuania was the best eL result ever (a thread I think I saw here afterwards), but that doesn't compare to either of the two above results (especially given the home defeat which followed).
point 4:im not slagging ucd's results-theyre decent efforts
cark beating kaunas 2-0 and then losing 1-0 IS a better result than the two ucd results. simply because the ucd ones constitute moral victories.carks results were actual victories and they went through,
example:Rovers beating vaduz 1-0 on aggregate is a better result than pats only losing 1-0 to real madrid on aggregate.
example:Rovers beating vaduz 1-0 on aggregate is a better result than pats only losing 1-0 to real madrid on aggregate. I think that's stretching the point. I'd love to see Pats lose by a solitary goal to Real more than Rovers beating Vaduz 1-0.
Poor Student
22/09/2005, 4:37 PM
To put things into context, Everton won the Cup Winners' Cup and the English league that year. We were an inch or two from scoring the winning away goal in that tie.
pineapple stu
22/09/2005, 6:23 PM
point 4:im not slagging ucd's results
That was at RedX (or RedNex or whatever), not you.
cark beating kaunas 2-0 and then losing 1-0 IS a better result than the two ucd results. simply because the ucd ones constitute moral victories.carks results were actual victories and they went through,
example:Rovers beating vaduz 1-0 on aggregate is a better result than pats only losing 1-0 to real madrid on aggregate.
That, however, is nonsense.
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