Kerr / O'Neill / Other

[Stuttgart88]

Can I just redirect the debate that's going on about Kerr vs O'Neill on the other thread. It's all well & good saying "O'Neil, O'Neill, O'Neill" but if the FAI made such a decision based just on a gut instinct & his high-profile I'd be annoyed.

I'd like to state that the FAI statement reported on Newstalk was an absolute disgrace & was totally disrespectful to Brian Kerr. I can't condemn this statement enough.

That said I'm feeling more & more deep down that Kerr just isn't going to get this group of players to perform beyond what they're doing. Quite simply I don't think the players are responding to his style & more than anything else, the guy just doesn't appear to be lucky. On the other hand I'm not sure other British / Irish style managers would do much better.

I've a huge amount of admiration for Kerr & think he deserves pretty much whatever other job he wants in the FAI. But I just can't bear the Duff / Keane / Given generation dropping their status within European football, as the seeding co-efficients are proving.

I wouldn't go as far as calling for his head yet because, as Cowboy pointed out earlier today, who else is there? Removing a manager is only one part of the equation. Replacing him with someone clearly better is the objective and it's not clear-cut that there's an obvious candidate. But now is the time for the FAI to give serious thought as to what will happen IF we fail to secure second place, or fail to qualify. Even still, to use a golf metaphor, it's all well and good to make the cut, but doing so on 2 or 3 over par is far from a ringing endorsement. Therefore I think the FAI should be considering (a) how to mark Kerr's card so far & what's the likelihood that there's better to come, (b) an objective critique of possible replacement candidates. If they FAI were considering O'Neill (if he'd even be available) this is what I think they should be coming up with.

Why MO'N would be a better manager than Kerr:

The guy is a winner. He has that intangible quality of leadership & success that for all his efforts Kerr just hasn't been able to bring to this level
O'Neill has a proven record in getting improved performances from average & ageing players. His impact at Celtic was immediate.
O'Neill has played at the highest level
O'Neill has a proven record in working with big-name players and earning their respect.
O'Neill has shown that his teams can play both attractive and direct football, depending on the circumstances
O'Neill's teams have always utilised width excellently - players like Thompson & Agathe have thrived under O'Neill. Players like Duff, Reid, Carr, Finnan & KK could all benefit. Mark Kennedy is the type of guy O'Neill could get something from. Even Harte.
O'Neill has got the best out of Liam Miller in the past. And Aiden McGeady.
UEFA Cup run 2003
Has used 3 at the back to good effect in the past. This could suit Ireland on occasion.
Excellent home performances, especially in Europe & against stronger teams. A direct approach that could suit our players reaped rewards.

Why O'Neill would NOT be an improvement over Brian Kerr:

Last minute or late goals against Juventus, Porto, Bayern, Lyon, AC Milan.
Away record in Europe. 1 draw in 9 CL games. Anderlecht away - lost to 10 men. Even in the UEFA Cup they lost away to Stuttgart & Celta. You don't get the benefit of away goals in WC & UEFA qualifying.
They wouldn't have even got to UEFA Final 2003 except that they lost 2-0 in Basle. Yes, Basle where Kerr's reputation has taken a bashing.
Last minute defeat at Motherwell. Only the bar rescued him in the SFA Cup Final a week later - also in injury time. Hardly a track record that would suggest that Croatia, Macedonia & Tel Aviv would be put to bed forever.
Playing Petrov & McGeady out of position when it was obvious they were unsuited to their respective roles.
Ireland don't have anyone near the quality of Chris Sutton or even Hartson that his style relies upon. Morrisson?
The game is moving away from the direct approach that O'Neill employs. I'm noticing increased sophistication in the way leading teams play, especially when compared to the style prevalent in UK & Ireland.

[Kevin77]

Great post. Not saying I necessarily agree with all your points, but well thought out and written.

Debate like this is fantastic. Not hysterical generalisations like some of the stuff on message boards.

[paul_oshea]

"They wouldn't have even got to UEFA Final 2003 except that they lost 2-0 in Basle."

what you mean they wouldnt have got to the final only for htey lost 2 - 0?

[thejollyrodger]

I think MON would be a good manager for Ireland but at the end of the day , it just comes down to what players you have. We are very thin on the ground. Kerr is doing ok IMO. I said on the other thread, A new manager always sounds good but in reality he may not make the slighest bit of difference.

[NeilMcD]

I think at the end of the campaign we can evaluate Kerrs position, it is too premature to discuss it now. What statment did the FAI make and has it been confirmed.

[thejollyrodger]

thats right NeilMcD.

If kerr goes on to win the next two matches what will everyone be saying about him then ?

Getting to the play offs is a very good achievement and i think it would be a good example of the media having their knives sharpened from day one for kerr.

[gspain]

What F.A.I. statement???????

I think it is obvious now there was no statement and maybe Newstalk got it wrong and hence did not repeat their story.

The F.A.I. may well be sounding out MoN but they do not appear to have made a statement on the matter unless you can produce one. If they did Newstalk would be playing it for all its worth.

[NeilMcD]

Thats what I thought and why I think its far too early be discussing Kerrs future as Ireland manager etc. We dont wanna end up like the English and have an hysterical media and as a result supporters.

[Donal81]

International teams can't buy players. Not only that, but they can't even coach the players they have that much (the Irish team gets together, what, five or six times a year?). It takes a long time to grow a squad and Kerr simply hasn't had enough of a chance. For me, it's as simple as that. The bloke has made mistakes as every single manager in the universe has done but I just don't think any club or international team ever prospered by changing a manager without considering the after effects.

Kerr knows the underage system better than any manager from across the water. If there's someone worth keeping an eye on, he'll know about it. I'm not saying that someone like Martin O'Neill would do a Maurice Setters on it but is Kerr not the best man to have if we want to see youth brought into the team? Young players haven't really made the breakthrough just yet on the Ireland team but, then again, a lot of them - especially those he would have dealt with such as McPhail, Healy and Miller - haven't made the breakthrough at their clubs yet.

Some of his tactics have been miserable but we had our strongest team out against the French. He'd have been pilloried if he had started with Finnan instead of Reid and Duff instead of Morrison, he went for what I would consider to be our strongest formation. Some players just didn't play; that's not all his fault.

We're still in the middle of a campaign. Let's finish the campaign when the results will sit together more plainly, consider carefully the performances of the players, the players available to the manager, the players that will be available to the manager and the tactics of the manager.

So far, I don't think the Irish media and Irish supporters have gone in for the hysterical screeching for heads that we see across the water but considering the likes of Liam Brady thinks Brian Kerr should go if we don't qualify and also that a number of people on this forum think he should go, maybe we're heading that way. What do we have to gain from getting rid of Brian Kerr? What do we have to lose? Too many people are going in for getting rid of him to take out their frustration at the fact that maybe we're not good enough to beat France at home.

[youngirish]

Too many people are going in for getting rid of him to take out their frustration at the fact that maybe we're not good enough to beat France at home.

I was actually a lot more worried at the inability of Ireland under his management to beat Israel at home and also his lack of any backup plan other than to throw Gary Doherty on to save the day whenthings aren't going our way in a game.

[Donal81]

I was actually a lot more worried at the inability of Irealnd under his management to beat Israel at home and also his lack of any backup plan other than to throw Gary Doherty on to save the day when we things aren't going right for us.

And what backup plan would you have suggested?

He has made his mistakes as did McCarthy but he was given a chance.

[mypost]

It takes a long time to grow a squad and Kerr simply hasn't had enough of a chance. The bloke has made mistakes as every single manager in the universe has done.

He has had his chances. Despite having good players available to him, we have won 5 of 14 competitive games while he has been in charge, while blowing winning positions on 4 other occasions. Hardly a record to inspire confidence, is it? :rolleyes:


Let's finish the campaign when the results will sit together more plainly, consider carefully the performances of the players, the players available to the manager, the players that will be available to the manager and the tactics of the manager.

The longer we leave it before Kerr goes, the more damage will be done. He will continue to make the wrong decisions, and we will continue to fail because of that.


What do we have to gain from getting rid of Brian Kerr?

We have the opportunity to appoint a boss, who won't pick the wrong players, who will choose the right tactics, who won't hype up the opposition as much, who won't settle for draws at home, and who will look to finish teams off in games, rather than defending for our lives.


Too many people are going in for getting rid of him to take out their frustration at the fact that maybe we're not good enough to beat France at home.

People want change, because they have seen BK's overall record, and have decided that it's not good enough. It's not just the France game, it's also the 4 points dropped to Israel, (largely his fault), the failure to press on when ahead, the bad tactics used, the constant talking up of inferior opposition. People don't want that. The public want a Jose Mourinho-like figure, who will make the right decisions, tell you straight what he wants, and demand that nothing less than victory will do. Brian was a popular choice to be our boss, but sadly his record in charge suggests that he can't cut it at this level. The fans have turned against him, and when you lose the fans, you eventually lose your job. The sooner he goes, the better for Irish football.

[NeilMcD]

Who is this Mournhio figure you talk about. Chelsea are paying an awful lot more to Mourinhio than the FAI can afford. Also Kerr should be given until the end of the campaign and then his record shoudl be assessed.

If we qualify he will keeps the joband his probably hailed as a hero.

If we get to the play-off and go out to Spain Czech Republic etc I think he would keep his job.


If we get to the play off and go out with poor performances I think he would probably go.

If we fail to get to the play offs I think he will go.



I dont think anybody could argue with the above as it would be the fairest situation. The last qualifying campaign was the 1st time since 1985 that we have finished outside the top 2. If it was to happen again I think Brian Kerr would have to go. I dont think it will happen I think we will be at the play offs and we will see who we get there.

[thejollyrodger]

mypost i think your just trolling. Kerr has a good record, he always puts the best 11 on the pitch and sticks to our best formation. Plus he experiements with other formatations and brings in new players.

we dont have the players we used to have. Kerr should win against the cypurs and the choclate makers. if he does that its good enough for me. IM A REALIST.

[paul_oshea]

"we dont have the players we used to have. Kerr should win against the cypurs and the choclate makers. if he does that its good enough for me. IM A REALIST."

only recently have you been converted! :) LOL

[mypost]

Kerr has a good record.

Where? Without bringing up friendlies against disinterested opponents, show me his good record - This bloke has won 5/14 competitive games in charge, and failed to win against any meaningful opposition. That is not a good record.


he always puts the best 11 on the pitch.

Does he? Should Richard Dunne, Matt Holland, Kevin Kilbane, Clinton Morrison, and a half-fit Robbie Keane be part of our Best 11???


Plus he experiements with other formatations and brings in new players.

When he experiments with other formations, it's a total disaster. With the odd exception, the current crop of players were brought in by Mick McCarthy. Brian Kerr, like McCarthy before him, will only play his favourites in competitive games, regardless of who it's against.


Kerr should win against the cypurs and the choclate makers.

Given his record to date, I don't believe that this coach is remotely capable of getting us 6 points from the last 2 games.


IM A REALIST.

If you were, we'd share the same opinion.

Kerr has failed. He must go.

[NeilMcD]

How can he have failed as teh campaign is not over yet and we will have 2 games to go and we can still qualify. He can only have failed at the end of the campaign or when it is impossible to qualify. His contract expires in December so the Fai are not going to sack him now. I dont think you are living in the real world if you think he must go now. He was given a job to get his to the World Cup and he shoudl be given the chance to complete that task and then be judge on that. What players would you have played instead of the players you name in your post. I think most people here went for the team that Kerr picked. But maybe you no more than the majority here and Briak Kerr too.

[Stuttgart88]

In terms of "calling for his head" I was trying to be careful to avoid such a statement.

Instead I was saying that if the FAI were doing their job properly they should be giving consideration NOW as to how to mark his card and what to do IF they did make the decision to replace him. Contingency planning is what you'd call it I suppose.

I posted my O'Neill critique because I think it spells out that he's not a clear cut better candidate & I'd hope the FAI will identify that. I think we should avoid making a populist appointment just as a PR exercise for the FAI.

Gspain - if the FAI made no such statement on O'Neill then apologies, I had taken it as fact.

My position on Kerr is pretty consistent in its ambiguity. He's made mistakes, some very avoidable, but the players have let him down too. Indiscipline from Carr & Keane (needless yellow cards) & careless mistakes have been costly.

He certainly hasn't had much luck either. I actually supported his adventurous approach to the Italy game. I thought the press reaction was extraordinarily ill-informed. I also like the guy and feel bad about only having qualified support for him. I'm a decent & fair person and he deserves decent & fair treatment. If we miss out and a better candidate emerges, hire him. If we qualify by beating a good team in the play-offs he probably will be a hero as Neil suggests. It's that fine a line. He's just one big result away from a big achievement. One bad result away from being remembered as a failure. But I stick by my golf analogy: he is a few over par at the moment - that can't be denied - but he does have two (hopefully three) holes to play.

Liam Brady obviously knows his stuff but he never felt like taking the job. Kerr put his past reputation & the public goodwill he enjoys on the line & I admire him for that. I doubt he's getting paid anything like Brady's salary at Arsenal.

Reponse to other comments above:

totallfootball - that's because I don't have any convincing firm criticism of Kerr!

Donal81 - I agree about the team he put out against France. I was raging after I read Dion Fanning writing about Kerr's "cautious approach" to the French game. What cautious approach? Change the ****ing record Dion.

And Paul - thanks for the grammar tip :)

[thejollyrodger]

mypost take a glance back to see where we landed under mc carthy in previous campagins. Muck in one word.

It took me a while to figure out if kerr was a good manager. I think he is a good manager but has made some mistakes which he was punished severly. Maybe he wouldnt have had it so bad in other groups.

I wont even bother replying to your posts, your trolling IMO. Cop on and get behind the manager. We arent Real Madrid FFS.

[paul_oshea]

"And Paul - thanks for the grammar tip"

i wasnt actually trying to be pedantic like neilmcd, but i still dont understand? the sentence doesnt make any sense sorry... :(

[tetsujin1979]

Does he? Should Richard Dunne, Matt Holland, Kevin Kilbane, Clinton Morrison, and a half-fit Robbie Keane be part of our Best 11???

Yes
No
Maybe
Yes
Maybe

[superfrank]

I think Martin would be a good appointment. I would really like to see him in the job but somehow I doubt he'd take it.

[Stuttgart88]

"And Paul - thanks for the grammar tip"

i wasnt actually trying to be pedantic like neilmcd, but i still dont understand? the sentence doesnt make any sense sorry... :(

What I was trying to say was that O'Neill was lauded for getting Celtic to the UEFA Cup Final (& rightly so). But if they hadn't flopped in Basle they wouldn't even have been in the UEFA Cup. Ironically floping in Basle was the making of O'Neill's biggest achievement but Kerr didn't have the benefit of any such second chance after he did the same.

[eirebhoy]

I think Martin would be a good appointment. I would really like to see him in the job but somehow I doubt he'd take it.
I doubt he'd take any international job as he doesn't suit it imo.

[paul_oshea]

aye ya you meant as in they got knocked out of CL, doh.....ya i mean i meant i was picking you up on the grammar!LOL ;)

[thejollyrodger]

I was trying to make the point earlier that a new manager may not make the slighest bit of difference. It sounds like the solution to everything but it might be a worse solution

[Jerry The Saint]

Brian Kerr, like McCarthy before him, will only play his favourites in competitive games, regardless of who it's against.


As you well know, Richie Dunne and Ian Harte played against France after earlier being left out of several squads in a row. Why would Kerr do that if they were his "favourites" :confused:

[mypost]

As you well know, Richie Dunne and Ian Harte played against France after earlier being left out of several squads in a row. Why would Kerr do that if they were his "favourites" :confused:

And as you well know too, Ian Harte was brought on as sub, to fire Hail Mary's in the general direction of Gary Doherty. Yeah, that's really going to work, up against Gallas, Thuram, Vieira, and co. :rolleyes: France asked BK a question when they took the lead. He panicked and reverted to (stereo)type in response, which got us absolutely nowhere.

Result: Ireland 0-1 France, and Ireland effectively out of the World Cup. Brian Kerr takes the responsibility for it, and the blame.

[NeilMcD]

Explain to me how Ireland are effectively out of the world cup. If we win our two games we could top the group (unlikely) or come 2nd, (likely). I have not seen you offer any solutions i.e. what players you would have played instead of the starting 11. What players you would have brought on when 1-0 down and what manager you would appoint instead of Brian Kerr. Also what effect woudl sacking the manager now have on the squad for the last 2 games. It is easy to critisise but it it is harder to offer up solutions.

[geysir]

AFAIC Kerr has the job until the end of the WCQ games. Imo he had a good 80 minutes against France, considering that 4 of the players were not firing on all cylinders. I would expect that Kerr over the next 2/4 games should be able to get though to the players his winning gameplan, if not, then there has to be a change, you can't moan about EPL coaching deficiencies forever.
Its total speculation about MON being a candidate. Whatever role he had at Celtic (manager) his imprint was everywhere. I think given the job he would assemble an effective backroom team.
To balance Eirebhoy's quotes from a disaffected player, (I accept no responsibility) Juninho,
I like this particular extract on MON.
"One quality he has above a lot of other people is that he knows the character of people. He knows how to get the best out of them" Ryan goes on to say "His motivation skills were brilliant; you'd want to tear the dressing room door off to get on to the pitch. He would make you feel like a great player even when you knew you weren't."

Take away his last year when for obvious reasons he was not at the races.
Consider his comments when he departed celtic pk " it is not the end of an era, rather the beginning of a new one". MON, the prophet :)

[Roverstillidie]

MON will not take the Irish, or any job, for the forseeable future. He left Celtic for a reason, to spend time with his terminally ill wife.
Celtic offered him a blank cheque to stay, a host of English Prem teams have sounded him out. Their budgets are light years ahead of anything the failure could offer. He is out of the game for the medium term, end of. And even if he was looking to get back into football, why on earth would he take the Irish job?
People need to get real.
We are a small national side with a very limited panel of aging players who have massivly overperformed for a number of years.
Losing by one goal to the French and people are calling for Kerr's head? His goal was to qualify out of a tough group and thats still a viable target. Do people expect samba soccer from the likes of Morrison, Holland and the Doc?
The mind boggles when you think of some peoples expectations of that group of players

[wws]

MON will not take the Irish, or any job, for the forseeable future. He left Celtic for a reason, to spend time with his terminally ill wife.
Celtic offered him a blank cheque to stay, a host of English Prem teams have sounded him out. Their budgets are light years ahead of anything the failure could offer. He is out of the game for the medium term, end of. And even if he was looking to get back into football, why on earth would he take the Irish job?
People need to get real.
We are a small national side with a very limited panel of aging players who have massivly overperformed for a number of years.
Losing by one goal to the French and people are calling for Kerr's head? His goal was to qualify out of a tough group and thats still a viable target. Do people expect samba soccer from the likes of Morrison, Holland and the Doc?
The mind boggles when you think of some peoples expectations of that group of players


spot on, ridiculous over estimation of teh national team in recent years - we are in downward spiral with no decent talent coming through, these things go in cycles we're still in with a shout and thats as best as we could hope for. The home draw with Israel was Kerrs only atrocious result in this group - and that was only in the context of the game itself - in the context of the group Israel have jammed points from everyone else too.

[geysir]

As I wrote, its total speculation. If he wanted it, he's good enough imo. I just found it hard to believe Juninho's wailing.

[FarBeag]

Lads.Give the man a chance.He took over from Macarthy when the Irish team was in turmoil and this is his first opportunity to prove himself.Granted he has made mistakes particulary against Israel on both occasions but we all make
mistakes and some of us learn from them so lets hope Kerr does.

We have at least two more games to play,posibily the playoffs and even the world cup so wait until then and judge him on the next few games.If he continues to make the same errors well! thats another story.One more point. Kerr is not all to blame, some of the players also have take their own fair share of responsibility so hopefully they will buck up their ideas too and maybe we are in for happier days.

[geysir]

We are a small national side with a very limited panel of aging players who have massivly overperformed for a number of years. Losing by one goal to the French and people are calling for Kerr's head? His goal was to qualify out of a tough group and thats still a viable target. Do people expect samba soccer from the likes of Morrison, Holland and the Doc? The mind boggles when you think of some peoples expectations of that group of players
Where exactly have the team been massivly overperforming for a number of years?

[oconghc2]

all this talk of "O'Neill"......

I thought maybe Keith was throwing his hat in the ring now he's not playing anymore!! :)

[Roverstillidie]

Where exactly have the team been massivly overperforming for a number of years?

3 world cups. and i should really have said overachieving.