Question re Norn Iron

[dcfcsteve]

This is a genuine question - not an attempt to start a row or wind people up.

I was pleased to see the North get a result over England in the footy. However -as a Northern Irish Catholic, I have a real problem identifying with the team. For me the main reasons are :

- God save the Queen being used as the anthem.
- The Ulster flag being used as the official flag.
- A sectarian element to the fan base.

Now - I know that many people will say that GSTQ is the national anthem for the north, but the Scots and Welsh have opted for their own anthems instead of it. Given how polarising anthems are in the 6 counties, I would've thought the IFA Community Relations guy would've looked into/addressed this by now. It seems to me ridiculous to have GSTQ as the anthem of a team that you then want/claim to represent both communities in the north. The IRFU recognised this by introuducing Ireland's Call (though Amhran na bhFiann is also played in Dublin). Why isn't the IFA capable of using a neutral song that has something to do with Northern Ireland itself ? One that all fans can rally around

On the flag - fans will obviously wave ehat they want/like - but again, the IFA itself seems to be blind to the polarising effect of using the unionist version of the Ulster flag. This is much harder to address than the anthem issue, as you need some sort of flag for a team, so I'm not sure what alternatives would be.

As for the fans - much progress has clearly been made in eradicating ouvert sectarianism from the terraces, and this is to be welcomed. And tha fans at the game on Weds were nothing short of superb - really put the Republic's fans to shame. However -the sectarian instinct of a number of Norn Iron fans still remains. For a substantial section, supporting the north is viewed as an exercise in celebrating their limited version of a protestant/Unionist Ulster. A good friend of mine from Belfast just happened to be on holiday in Malta with his Australian girlfriend last month when the north were playing out there. He only realised the team were playing a game there when he walked into an Irish bar to hear 'The Sash' being sung by, as he desribed them sarcastically "the great Northern Irish fans...". I want nothing to do with a team that attracts substantial numbers of people who view see supporting the North as an opportunity to assert a limited vision of the province. I can't see how this well ever stop though.

I'm not looking to stir-up a political debate here. I'm merely stating that, as a catholic and a nationalist, I actually feel pushed-away from supporting Northern Ireland by the IFA's insistence on using symbolism that identifies the team firmly with one community over another. I only know of one Northern Catholic who is an 'active' northern Irish supporter (i.e. travels to away games etc). I know of one or two more who go to the odd game in Windsor, but that is more out of a love for football. Meanwhilw, I know of a large number of Northern Catholics who actively follow the Republic, and who would echo my sentiments above re not feeling comfortable with the symbolism used by the IFA, let-alone the attitude of some of the fans.
Until such items are addressed, I believe the North will never truely represent the entire 'country'.

So once again - congratulations to the North on a superb result and atmosphere in the game against England. Let's hope the IFA develop a sense of political awareness and institue the above changes that will enable northern Catholics/nationalists like myself from feel fully involved in the party.

[gspain]

My understanding is that NI play under the Union Jack rather than the Ulster flag. These are the official flag and anthem of Northern Ireland. Surely it is up to the "government" of NI to come up with a new flag and anthem although I imagine Danny Boy would go down well particularly in Derry.

As for sectarianism - can you provide some examples? I went up to the Azerbaijan game and there was no sectarian singing/comments and not a Rangers jersey in sight. There was one in a bar beforehand but he made it clear he was staying to watch his team on tv (and he didn't mean Scotland) I hadn't been to a NI senior home game for almost 11 years (4-0 Nov 94) and it was totally different.

Have you been to any game srecently?

[dcfcsteve]

My understanding is that NI play under the Union Jack rather than the Ulster flag. These are the official flag and anthem of Northern Ireland. Surely it is up to the "government" of NI to come up with a new flag and anthem although I imagine Danny Boy would go down well particularly in Derry.

Gary - GSTQ and the Union flag being the 'official' symbols of Northern Ireland is frankly irrelevant. If the team is attempting to represent the whole of the province, then they will find themselves unable to do so whilst such one-sided symbolism is in-place. The IRFU didn't have any problems recognising this by adopting 'Ireland's Call' to be used instead or alongside Amhran na bhFiann - regardless of what the official anthem of a Dublin-based organisation should be. The Welsh and Scottish FA's didn't have to run to Tony Blair to use Flower of Scotland/Hen Wlad Fy Nhadou and the Saltaire/flag of St David for their 'nations' - so tell me why should Northern Ireland be so different ??


As for sectarianism - can you provide some examples? I went up to the Azerbaijan game and there was no sectarian singing/comments and not a Rangers jersey in sight. There was one in a bar beforehand but he made it clear he was staying to watch his team on tv (and he didn't mean Scotland) I hadn't been to a NI senior home game for almost 11 years (4-0 Nov 94) and it was totally different.

Have you been to any game srecently?

As my note stated - ouvert sectarianism at the games appears to have been successfully tackled. However - there is undoubtedly still a section of Northern irish supporters who sing sectarian songs whiilst on away duty. I gave you an example from Malta (and please don't try to assert that The Sash isn't a sectarian song, as we all know that it's more than just a folk song). Gerrit (a regular poster on here) was also at the Azer game, and remarked on how he saw a lot of Rangers and Hearts jersies amongst the fans (though I don't necessarily perceive that to be evidence of sectarianism myself, but you mentioned it in your note). Coincidentally - you will hear chants regarding 'Ulster' (e.g. 'Stand-up for the Ulstermen etc) in the stadiums at Northern Ireland games. I don't consider this 'sectarian (though if you take the literal meaning of the word, it is) nor do I find it offensive - but it is indicative of the one-sidedness of the support, as very few Catholics/nationalists talk in terms of 'Ulster'.

And no I haven't been to any matches, as should have been fairly clear from my note. As stated - I don't feel able to identify with a team that uses such one-sided symbolism.

And in case anyone thinks I'm just being a nationalist WUM - I don't have a problem supporting the Ulster rugby team, and have been to see them on a number of occassions - home and away. They tend to focus more on the red hand symbol, rather than the unionist version of the Ulster flag, and they don't have GSTQ at games (or at least not the ones I was at). Much less danger of being greeted by renditions of The Sash or The Billy Boys as well.

The euphoria of the result against England brought this all home to me, which is why I've posted about it now. I was happy with the result, but didn't feel able to fully get into it all. It really felt like looking through the window at someone else's party, which caused me to ponder on why I felt that way and what would change my perception.

[pete]

I would agree with anthem & would seem very good idea & relatively easy to change.

Don't understand issue with flag as do not the GAA also use that as symbol for the wider Ulster - not just 6 counties?

Sectarianism is hard for authorities to eliminate as only have juristiction inside the stadium. Will always be some muppets. Sure seen 5-10 fellas in Murrays after Republic match singing 'RA songs after France match. :rolleyes:

[Dodge]

Don't understand issue with flag as do not the GAA also use that as symbol for the wider Ulster - not just 6 counties?

Presume GAA don't use the crown bit. Probably have yellow background instead of white too. Hardcore probably swap flag of St. Patrick for St. George.

[Dodge]

See here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Banner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster

[dcfcsteve]

IDon't understand issue with flag as do not the GAA also use that as symbol for the wider Ulster - not just 6 counties?

The 'red hand of Ulster' flag is a Stormont-induced derivation from the original flag of Ulster - which is the red hand on a red cross with yellow background.

I can assure you, the GAA do not use the unionist-version of the Ulster flag.....

[pete]

See here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Banner
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ulster

I learned something new today.

:cool:

[gspain]

I was actually looking for Rangers jerseys as they were very obvious in 93 and 94 to a lesser extent. I didn't see any - North Stand upper deck. One Manyoo and one green Liverpool top with the vast majority of the fans in green shirts. A few IL tops also obviously.

The IRFU represent rugby on the whole island and thus cross political boundaries. They also use GSTQ for home games in Ravenhill btw albeit there haven't been any since 1954. GSTQ and the UJ are the official flags of NI. I agree they are off putting to somebody of a nationalist background

I agree the Sash is not an appropriate song and is perceived as sectarian although I'm not sure if any of the lyrics are. However if singing sectarian songs in a bar before games is a mark of sectarianism (and I agree) then we have a lot to sort out ourselves as such practice is now tolerated on RoI away trips. Guys were quickly told to shut up in the past. I tried that myself in the English pub beside Ueno station on the night of England v Argentina on tv in 2002 and got told where to go by a group of Belfast spides in the colours of a British club team. They came out with some disgusting stuff. Thankfully they haven't tried any of it at games yet to my knowledge.

We could do with getting rid of the shirts of another British club team from Lansdowne Road ourselves.

FWIW I had attended 5 previous NI homes games at Windsor - our three in 88,93 & 94 and Denmark 90 and Lithuania 92. I never felt threatened at any of them even after being "outed" however the atmosphere at our games was pretty tense and there was plenty of sectarian singing. Furthermore red/white/blue were the pre-dominant colours of the home fans whereas now it is green. The Sash and the Billy Boys would have been regular songs thne but not now.

I suggest you go along and experienc eit.

I've only been to Ravenhill once but felt free to openly wear Munster colours and cheer for Munster however my recollection is that the Union Jack is flown there too although I could be wrong. Home fans were great btw.

You do I assume know that we are actually the partitionist team. There are differing accounts as to what went on in 1922 but the F.A.I. broke away and formed a seperate associaiton and indeed the IFA tried to organise on an All Ireland basis up until 1950.

[dahamsta]

Moved to Off Topic for the moment.


I learned something new today.Me too.

adam /reads all about flags

[motorcycleman]

DCFC Steve,Even though I've found this board very interesting,I'm not a contributer and also not trying to wind you up, however you say that you have a real problem identifying with the N.Ireland team on the grounds of the anthem,flag and sectarian element of the fan base.Well for the same opposite reasons (as a southern Irish protestant)overtime I have withdrawn from identifying with the R.of Ireland team.

I attended my first international in 1978(R.of Ireland v. England) and was regular at Landsdowne Road until 1992 even attending the World Cup in Italy in 1990.Firstly the "national anthem" with the words "Saxon foe".Well,It's easy to know who it's aimed at.
"The tricolour flag"(even though it's original origins were noble) it has been hijacked and sullied by the sight of it on coffins at IRA funerals being carried by Mr Adams and Mr.McGuinness.
"The sectarian element"In Landsowne Road overtime,I've heard all the 'Ra chants,seen the union flag burned,booing Rangers players etc., the Fields of Athenry being sung by
Celtic jersey brigade etc.In the pubs if there's a sing song usually there's a few 'Ra songs thrown in.Then you get a funny look if you know nothing about the G.A.A. It all leads to a mono-cultural identity.On the F.A.I. website history link there is the reference to the I.FA. bias towards Belfast"protestant" clubs.Why mention the "P" word at all.Therefore without compromising my heritage and culture I too also feel alienated from supporting the national team of the country I was born in.

How can an identity be created which we all can coexist together ?

[Dodge]

"The tricolour flag"(even though it's original origins were noble) it has been hijacked and sullied by the sight of it on coffins at IRA funerals being carried by Mr Adams and Mr.McGuinness.
Just on this, the national flag is hijacked in pretty much every country there is. In Britain its the far right, but should the actions of a majority ruin a national emblem. Plenty of better people are also proud to use the flag for much greater reasons...



In the pubs if there's a sing song usually there's a few 'Ra songs thrown in.Then you get a funny look if you know nothing about the G.A.A. It all leads to a mono-cultural identity.
You're drinking in the wrong pubs

[Gerrit]

I have lived in Dublin for a while, now in Belfast, and have seen both national teams a few times. I will try to make a neutral point, as I obviously have a personal bond with both North and South.

- I can understand the problem Steve has with the anthem. I also find it very weird TBH. When I asked a few fans why they do not play Danny Boy, some said it'd be a good idea, some said that it's ridiculous and that Wales and Scotland are a shame to the British feeling. So it seems to be a point where even fans of Northern Iron are divided. I'd say they would do not bad move by selecting an own anthem. Danny Boy would be a good choice IMO.

- the flag: it is the official flag of Northern Ireland as displayed in every encyclopaedia, tourism board, etc. The flag leans more towards the Unionist side, but the flag is a government thing, and NI is under British rule, so not totally unlogical they have this flag as official flag. I don't really see the need for an alternative as well, because the hand on the flag clearly associates with Northern Ireland.

- The Union Jacks seem not to be the IFA's flags, or am I wrong here? It seems the majority of Union Jacks is just brought by fans.

- I won't judge on "Ulster" because after 13 months on the island I cannot judge fair enough on which feelings the term represents in both communities. I have followed the advice from few board members here though and didn't use the names 'Ulster' and 'Six Counties' anymore (wasn't it Steve who told me in order to stay neutral it's best to just use 'Northern Ireland' ?)

- I think when it comes to the very vast majority of Unionist fans both sides should make a step towards each other.
I think it is a bit sad that the majority of Nationalists here either supports only GAA or either supports only the Republic. Nothing wrong by supporting the ROI as well, but a bit of interest or well-wishing towards the North would be a good move. By only supporting the ROI they are indeed also a wee bit sectarian.
I think the Nationalists should show more interest in NI football team and come to Windsor whenever possible, and the Unionist fans have the duty to make them feel welcome.

- the Rangers/Celtic thing is a problem at both sides of the border. I am disgusted sometimes by how many Rangers jerseys I see in my new hometown, even when I went to see Glens and Linfield some wore a Rangers tracksuit instead of the one from their own team...
In the ROI the problem is less present in the EL where most fans wear their own team's colours, but I must say I also find it sad to see so many Celtic jerseys at Lansdowne instead of EL jerseys.
So my conclusion: both in NI and ROI there is a serious problem with "barstoolers" and Old Firm jerseys, and both in NI and ROI it is sad to see people sitting in front of a TV in a pub while you walk towards a local stadium. I have not seen a single Old Firm game while on the island, in Dublin I went to EL games, and now here I am going to IL games. Just as fun, and the happiness when the team score seems more honest. All the respect to the genuine Celtic and Rangers fans on the island, but I can't help disliking both of the Glaswegian giants for how much politics are involved in both these clubs. Inverness all the way for me now :)

Maybe the IFA and ROI should try to get the Rangers/Celtic elements out of their national team games, as it clearly offends many people (just look at the nr of topics on that here). They could use this trick: every ROI or NI game, everyone entering the ground in a shirt of a local team gets a free drink and fish-n-chips.

[liam88]

Firstly the "national anthem" with the words "Saxon foe".Well,It's easy to know who it's aimed at.


Yes it's aimed at the English......not at Irish Protestants (who have included Wolfe Tone etc.


seen the union flag burned,

Surley you don't take this personally.....your not British are you.



the Fields of Athenry beign sung


What on Earth is wrong with this :eek: :eek: An Anthem about the Irish struggle during the famine! True most were Catholics but this song says nothing against Protestants.



How can an identity be created which we all can coexist together ?

When people stop taking offence at things that arn't meant offensivly.


There is a distinct difference between songs for example; the Sash is about the Orange order-a strongly anti-Catholic organisation, the billy boys is about murdering Catholics "we're up to our necks in Fenian (Catholic) blood"........and Fields of Athenry is about Irish struggling to feed themselves. Spot the odd one out?

I know everyone try's to be politically correct and everything but soemtimes you've jsut got to admit things arn't so balanced and any isolation of Republic of Ireland Protestants in soccer has never been half that of Northern Irish Cahtolics.

[Gerrit]

I still disagree on the Sash being sectarian. No doubt about the Billy Boys, the sung is disgusting. But the Sash is just about being proud of being British. Nothing different than being proud of being Irish/French/American/etc and not per definition anti-Irish (unlike the Billy Boys)




Also, I wanna make a wee remark: I tend to use not "Protestant/Catholic" but "Nationalist/Unionist".
Sure the nationalist=catholic and unionist=protestant is not always right. There are atheists who have no religion but still have a nationalist or unionist feeling based on purely political motives. And I have met catholics in Belfast yet who still prefer to be under British rule because the government does more for the people they say. Probably there's also protestants who feel culturally more Irish...

I mean, the troubles are so often associated with religion, while every single Northerner (both Nationalist and Unionist) I've met so far told me it's much more than just religion.

BTW, I have a Muslim colleague. I'm sure he'll have an opinion on Unionism/Nationalism, while he would be offended by either prostant and catholic ;)

[liam88]

I still disagree on the Sash being sectarian. No doubt about the Billy Boys, the sung is disgusting. But the Sash is just about being proud of being British. Nothing different than being proud of being Irish/French/American/etc and not per definition anti-Irish (unlike the Billy Boys)

:rolleyes: seriosuly mate do a bit of research on the orange order......or just watch the news tonight. It's nto about being proud to be British-i'm sure the soldiers whot he orange order attack with iron bars and petrol bombs are proud to be British.....and they wouldn't sing the sash.
The orange order is an anti-Catholic association. That is indisputible. Last night showed undoubtbly that they are still thugs. Thugs that most British are digusted by.

[dahamsta]

I don't want to get into the discussion itself - fascinating as it is - but since I did some reading earlier, a note of pedantry:


- the flag: it is the official flag of Northern Ireland as displayed in every encyclopaedia, tourism board, etc.According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Northern_Ireland) - thanks Dodge - it ceased to be the official flag in 1972, which would make it simply a de facto flag. Presumably the official flag would be the Union Jack now, or possibly none at all.

adam

[MariborKev]

Steve,

As someone from the same background of yourself I can probably tackle a few of your queries.

In recent years there is a much lower proportion of Rangers/Hearts etc shirts at Northern Ireland games than you would see Celtic shirts at Rep of Ireland game. Like Gary Spain in recent games I have looked out specifically for them and while there is a token few sprinkled round the ground, there are certainly far fewer than you would Celtic tops round Lansdowne on a match.

I agree with you on the anthem, but ask yourself how many fans from our side of the fence would go if they changed the anthem and the flag. Most opened minded fans of a Nationalist personality have already ventured to a game or two and the rest would merely seek another excuse if these perceived "barriers" were removed. In the same way as Willy Anderson made the effort to learn Amhran na bhFiann when he played rugby for Ireland, the anthem is an issue if you make it one. To be fair to the support there are regular threads on OWC about an alternative anthem and at least the fanbase are willing to debate the issue.

As you mention, the flag is a huge issue political. Witness clowns like Nelson McCausland and his attempts to get "The British and Irish Lions" changed to "The British Lions". The political landscape as it is, with the extremists in the ascendancy I can't see any change in that issue in the middle to the long term.

As regards the support I reckon it is a case of pot kettle back. Of course there are a proportion of the Northern Ireland support who are no credit to their nation. The same could be said of a proportion of the ROI support. Witness the modifications to the Fields of Athenry to include references to the RA, Sinn Fein and the like. At recent games I have asked people just to sing te original version and have been met with a shower of expletives. The irony of the fact that this was delivered from Celtic shirt wearing(no having a go, just stating fact) was not lost of me. Of course the scene your friend encountered in Malta was repellent but as Gary mentioned there is a trend for political incorrect tunes on ROi away trips at times. The bar all the Derry support frequented in Cyprus blasted out the rebel tunes, does that make our support sectarian?

The atmosphere inside Windsor these days is a cracking day out. We were at the Serbia game last year and some of our lads had Derry City gear on, surely a recipe for disaster. However we had nothing but banter from the rest of the crowd before and after the game with many people asking us when we were coming back into the Irish League. I don't expect that this would be the 100% reaction but given you can get abused in Lansdowne for wearing an eL jersey we are in no position to give out about others

[Green Tribe]

I have to fully agree with every word dcfc steve says, i fully understand how he feels, being a Northern Irish Catholic myself. I have always felt like this about the NI team and it is so frustrating. I do wish them well, and I always look out for their results and would watch them if on tv, but I also feel out of place as a supporter. It's frustrating because it is my homeland, it is my region.

I could never feel like a 100% passionate supporter of theirs unless some changes are made as steve mentioned. The anthem would be a immense step at least. Danny boy would be great, it is quite an emotional melody. It is a disgrace that in this day and age, the IFA have done nothing to make any changes. Maybe if the team became more successful(eg back to the days of the early 80's) there would be more nationalists interested in the team and would call for change. Maybe one day :( , but we know how stubborn certain elements of society in NI can be. :(

[thejollyrodger]

I agree with some of what you say Gerrit. I think it would be a fantastic move if the FAIlure could get rid of all the Celtic jerseys out of lansdowne road. maybe a campagin could be started ?

As for the Sash, it IS sectarian IMO. The orange order sing it and nationalists find it very sectarian.

[liam88]

I I think it would be a fantastic move if the FAIlure could get rid of all the Celtic jerseys out of lansdowne road. maybe a campagin could be started ?


Yeah and increase biterness in and arguments in our own support :rolleyes:
Ya gonna get the Germany away kit out while ya at it.....i mean that's antoher nation! How about we just make everyone where and Ireland jersey......or an EL jersey! No people wearing t-shirts or tracksuits allowed!
Surley having someone in a plain shirt is not better than a Celtic jersey....who's colorus are green and white-same as Ireland.....the new Celtic away strip is practically the same as the Ireland jersey!
Short of shirts with racist/secaterian/abusive slogans on them let people wear what they like.

[dcfcsteve]

Steve,

As someone from the same background of yourself I can probably tackle a few of your queries.

In recent years there is a much lower proportion of Rangers/Hearts etc shirts at Northern Ireland games than you would see Celtic shirts at Rep of Ireland game. Like Gary Spain in recent games I have looked out specifically for them and while there is a token few sprinkled round the ground, there are certainly far fewer than you would Celtic tops round Lansdowne on a match.

I agree with you on the anthem, but ask yourself how many fans from our side of the fence would go if they changed the anthem and the flag. Most opened minded fans of a Nationalist personality have already ventured to a game or two and the rest would merely seek another excuse if these perceived "barriers" were removed. In the same way as Willy Anderson made the effort to learn Amhran na bhFiann when he played rugby for Ireland, the anthem is an issue if you make it one. To be fair to the support there are regular threads on OWC about an alternative anthem and at least the fanbase are willing to debate the issue.

As you mention, the flag is a huge issue political. Witness clowns like Nelson McCausland and his attempts to get "The British and Irish Lions" changed to "The British Lions". The political landscape as it is, with the extremists in the ascendancy I can't see any change in that issue in the middle to the long term.

As regards the support I reckon it is a case of pot kettle back. Of course there are a proportion of the Northern Ireland support who are no credit to their nation. The same could be said of a proportion of the ROI support. Witness the modifications to the Fields of Athenry to include references to the RA, Sinn Fein and the like. At recent games I have asked people just to sing te original version and have been met with a shower of expletives. The irony of the fact that this was delivered from Celtic shirt wearing(no having a go, just stating fact) was not lost of me. Of course the scene your friend encountered in Malta was repellent but as Gary mentioned there is a trend for political incorrect tunes on ROi away trips at times. The bar all the Derry support frequented in Cyprus blasted out the rebel tunes, does that make our support sectarian?

The atmosphere inside Windsor these days is a cracking day out. We were at the Serbia game last year and some of our lads had Derry City gear on, surely a recipe for disaster. However we had nothing but banter from the rest of the crowd before and after the game with many people asking us when we were coming back into the Irish League. I don't expect that this would be the 100% reaction but given you can get abused in Lansdowne for wearing an eL jersey we are in no position to give out about others

Some fair points Kev.

The fans are the bit that Football Associations can do least about. There are plenty of Celtic-loving armchair Republicans amongst the Republic Of Ireland's supprt (I came very close to getting in a fight in Paris for telling a load of Cork lads to feck-up from singing 'Ra songs). But the bottom line is that I feel safer in those circles than I would amongst a similar loyalist group. I wish both lots would disappear, but it's understandably 'better the devil you know' when it comers to mouthy football supporters.

Regardless - my main bug-bear is the anthem and flag. The flag bit I can't really see any alternative for, which solves that one, but the anthem is an easy fix, and it disturbs me that the thought doesn't even appear to have crossed the IFA's mind. The fact that some of those who complain about the anthem are just using it as an excuses is irrelevant. If the IFA is serious about having a team that represents ALL of Northern Ireland - and not just a small majority of the 'nation' - then it should be looking to address these things. They should be done because they're right, and in-keeping with the apparent new identity of Northern Irish football - not just to get a few more nationalist bums on seats. If the IFA don't really care about the inclusiveness or other of the team, then fine - but just be honest about that. But you can't have words that say one thing and symbolism that says something completely different - it just doesn't wash.

And I would disagree that most open-minded nationalists have already been to Windsor. I'd say a few more would be interested now after the hype from last Weds - but bar youself and another lad I was at the College with, I don't know anyone who's been to Windsor park since the 1980's. I know a decent number of open-minded lads who love their football and have lived outside of the north for years. Now they're back in Belfast, none of them ghas been up to Windsor. I'd happily go to a Norn Iron game - just as I try to catch any football games wherever I go. But I just don't feel 'connected' to what is my home nation because it dresses itself up in an identity that I don't share, and that is considered antagonistic towards my identity.

[-lamb-]

some good points here.
a few points from me.
i mentioned this before and someone argued with me about it, but before the troubles there WAS a fairly decent support for the NI team amongst catholics, not all, but still a reasonable representation.
considering i am from a mostly protestant town, i know at least 5 or 6 catholics who go to the NI matches out of the 30 odd that i know personally who go.
all i can say is that if you are from northern ireland get yourself down to a NI match.
surely a few "no surrenders" during an anthem that lasts all of about 2 mins isn't enough of an excuse not to go?
i'd like to see our team for all our people, and that includes you steve. if its good enough for martin oneill and pat jennings to play for (with pride - one an ex-gaa player and one a celtic fan/now manager) then its good enough for you to support. isn't gerry armstrong from somewhere up the falls? all led by jim boyce the c'ville chairman.
i'll agree there were years, mostly late 80s to mid 90s, when it went a bit downhill, but the lennon incident, imo, was a catalyst for us to take a look at ourselves and stop the rot.
there's very little to be offended by now and if you still are offended then you'll never be able to support your locality's team. there's not much more that can be done.
if (mostly younger) catholics still prefer to support the ROI then the mud can't be slung at us for it. i can't help feeling peer pressure in nationalist areas is also a factor here to some degree.
as someone said, elements of the ROI support are arguably more offensive to protestants than NI fans are to you.

all i can say to northern catholics is - give it a go. support your local lads, and lets face it- thats the reason for football teams in general. the team always had representatives from both sides and it needs representatives from both communities as fans. if you go to be offended i'm sure you will. if you go to enjoy yourself i'm also sure you will.
basically - will you partake in the community or will you deliberately ostracise(sp?)yourself and keep things segragated by not participating?
ps. re: anthems....i'd be for one of our own but the problem is what song? danny boy isn't exactly any livelier than gstq! there's not a lot of decent choices out there tbh

[thejollyrodger]

I dont agree with celtic jerseys (no matter how similar to the ireland jersey) being worn in lansdowne. The whole Rangers Celtic thing has little to do with football.

[soccerc]

As for sectarianism - can you provide some examples?
Have you been to any game srecently?

Gary, as you know I was and I believe you too heard a muted but clearly audible "No Surrender" chant in Lurgan when some of the crowd sang GSTQ.

It seemed to embarrass those around us but certainly not everyone as they were applauded when they finished. I understand that those involved just happened to be associated with the QUBNISC

[MariborKev]

Lamb,

I don't think anyone other than fellow Nationalists can understand the alienation that those like myself, dcfcsteve and kerr's tribe feel at the playing of GSTQ in Windsor Park.

I really don't want this very informative thread to descend into petty politics but the issue has to be mentioned.

Me da was a regular at Windsor in the 60s,70s but stopped going in the 80s. He said that he wouldn't take us to somewhere we wouldn't be welcomed.

My father, brother and I went along to Windsor when we were kids in the early 90s. The atmosphere in those days was still very tense and after one "close shave" we had to say that we were from Limavady and not from Derry. This was in the South Stand as well........

Me da refused to let us go to any of the games between the North and the Republic and he stopped going after the infamous "Night in November". He has been back sporadically in the last few years and wishes them well but he has the same interest in the Republic now as he did in NI when he was much younger.

As for the anthem-without going into the politics, the anthem doesn't represent a large number of the population. As a constitutional nationalist who would be as happy with an independent, self governed NI as I would be with a united Ireland, GSTQ will never be an anthem for me. I would count myself as a free thinking open minded Nationalist and if I can't accept GSTQ you can only imagine the reaction of more blinkered members of my "side" to that anthem.

There are numerous examples of nations "changing" anthems in recent years and therefore there is no reason why the same could not happen for NI.

[TheOwl]

As I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to most "Norn Iron" issues, I decided to look up the lyrics of "the Sash".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sash (wikipedia coming in handy today eh?)

I was surprised it mentioned "Derry" and not "Londonderry" in the lyrics, any reason for this?

Also how cool is that bit about Gerry Adams

"There exists a translation into Irish, which Gerry Adams used to sing to his mainly Protestant customers when he worked as a barman, before he became a prominent Republican activist."

Please tell me that is true!

Basically, near enough all the Protestants I have met from Northern Ireland have been sound chaps so I hate anything that seems to polarise the two communities (i.e. Sectarian songs, and Celtic and Rangers)

[Éanna]

:rolleyes: seriosuly mate do a bit of research on the orange order......or just watch the news tonight. It's nto about being proud to be British-i'm sure the soldiers whot he orange order attack with iron bars and petrol bombs are proud to be British.....and they wouldn't sing the sash.
The orange order is an anti-Catholic association. That is indisputible. Last night showed undoubtbly that they are still thugs. Thugs that most British are digusted by.
Its as sectarian as the Fields of Athenry- i.e. its not. Neither of them are. Just because certain people sing those songs, does not make them sectarian.

[Éanna]

Yeah and increase biterness in and arguments in our own support :rolleyes:
Ya gonna get the Germany away kit out while ya at it.....i mean that's antoher nation! How about we just make everyone where and Ireland jersey......or an EL jersey! No people wearing t-shirts or tracksuits allowed!
Surley having someone in a plain shirt is not better than a Celtic jersey....who's colorus are green and white-same as Ireland.....the new Celtic away strip is practically the same as the Ireland jersey!
Short of shirts with racist/secaterian/abusive slogans on them let people wear what they like.
What have Celtic jersies got to do with Ireland games? Thats the bottom line- nothing. They have absolutely **** all to do with the Irish teams, and the very fact that they are an issue that has been mentioned repeatedly on here and elsewhere is a good enough reason for a ban IMO.

[Éanna]

Well for the same opposite reasons (as a southern Irish protestant)overtime I have withdrawn from identifying with the R.of Ireland team.Speaking as a southern Irish nationalist who went to a protestant school, but is a fervent atheist, I'm intrigued to read what you have to say! :) (EDIT: and is distantly related to that most noble of Irish freedom fighters, Wolfe Tone, a protestant.)


Firstly the "national anthem" with the words "Saxon foe".Well,It's easy to know who it's aimed at.I honestly think that this is aimed solely at the political/military occupation of Ireland by Britain. I have many protestant friends who have no problem with the irish anthem. IMO, its commemorating our country's (partial) liberation from colonialism, as is the case with the anthem of many, if not most, ex-colonies.


"The tricolour flag"(even though it's original origins were noble) it has been hijacked and sullied by the sight of it on coffins at IRA funerals being carried by Mr Adams and Mr.McGuinness.I'd agree to some extent there, but the point has been made- there's very little can be done about certain people hijacking a flag, and I for one don't think the tricolour should be an issue, as its original intentions were right, and people should rise above being offended by the actions of certain groups.


"The sectarian element"In Landsowne Road overtime,I've heard all the 'Ra chants,seen the union flag burned,booing Rangers players etc., the Fields of Athenry being sung by
Celtic jersey brigade etc.Ra chants, burning flags, booing Rangers players- all totally wrong and indefensible, especially in a football ground. nothing wrong with the Fields of Athenry per se, but it has been hijacked by neanderthals


the pubs if there's a sing song usually there's a few 'Ra songs thrown in.Depends on what kind of ra sing along it is. I have no problem with old songs such as "Boys of the Old Brigade" etc, which, like Amhrán na bFhiann celebrate the past of this country. The RA songs I would have a problem with are ones which glorify the murder and atrocities committed by terrorists. There is also a time and a place for these songs, and even those which I don't find offensive (And quite enjoy) don't, IMO, have a place at a football ground.


Then you get a funny look if you know nothing about the G.A.A. It all leads to a mono-cultural identity.Tell me about it :rolleyes: Try being in Cork over the last 48 hours and not giving a toss about the hurling :rolleyes:


Therefore without compromising my heritage and culture I too also feel alienated from supporting the national team of the country I was born in.As do I, but not for most of the reasons you obviously do. Its something the FAI need to sort out- the half-hearted attempts to deal with the pig-ignorant Celtic "fans" who boo Rangers players just aren't good enough.

[gspain]

Gary, as you know I was and I believe you too heard a muted but clearly audible "No Surrender" chant in Lurgan when some of the crowd sang GSTQ.

It seemed to embarrass those around us but certainly not everyone as they were applauded when they finished. I understand that those involved just happened to be associated with the QUBNISC

As you said muted but clearly audible. I agree it was inappropriate but from a small minority of the crowd. The same fans who were later singing "Pat McCourt is the new Pele". The singing in Lurgan was fine and you may recall you wore your Irish shirt and we cheered openly for our goals and somebody even cheered evin Doyle's onside goal when he missed the linesman's flag. :o

[gspain]

A few brief points for motorcycleman

1) You did well to find a pub full of GAA fans on an away trip. Many football fans have no time for that organisation for many reasons mentioned in other threads. It's not just protestants btw that have been victims of GAA bigotry.

2) The Celtic thing is a recent fad. 10 years ago outside of Donegal you would rarely see Celtic shirts

3) The booing and sectarian abus eof curremt/former Rangers players began in 2000. It is totally wrong but by a vocal minority.

4) Thankfully we haven't had any sectarian singing at Lansdowne but I am concerned too at the rise of it in pubs at away games. In the past any one who tried that sort of thing was promptly shut up.

5) Northern Ireland fans openly displayed both Ulster and UJ flags at the 89 & 93 games in Lansdowne among the home fans (no away end that I can recall). I know of quite a few who came down in 89 with no problems whatsoever. My recollection is that there was an away end on the north terrace in 78 but I was just a kid then.

[soccerc]

I know of quite a few who came down in 89 with no problems whatsoever. My recollection is that there was an away end on the north terrace in 78 but I was just a kid then.

The North Terrace was the away end in 1978 and it was a full of naked sectarianism along the constant burning of tricolours.

Before, during and after the game there were incidents generally started by our Northern Friends. I recall at the final whistle a mini riot as they left the North Terrace and came around the back of the East Stand. I can still see the fear on the face of ITN's Trevor McDonald as he filmed his report of the events along Lansdowne Road that afternoon.

[Pat O' Banton]

2) The Celtic thing is a recent fad. 10 years ago outside of Donegal you would rarely see Celtic shirts



I point my honourable freind to the video of the Italia 90 Qualifying campaign which shows loads going bonkers on the north terrace in the tops of non eL clubs - and we ain't talking Boca Juniors or Grampus 8 here. (Also weren't there a few spotted wandering around the Strets of Germany in '88?)

[gspain]

I point my honourable freind to the video of the Italia 90 Qualifying campaign which shows loads going bonkers on the north terrace in the tops of non eL clubs - and we ain't talking Boca Juniors or Grampus 8 here. (Also weren't there a few spotted wandering around the Strets of Germany in '88?)

Too many Harps fans got tickets in those days. :D

We had little tv coverage of Scottish football in those days and celtic are far far bigger now in the Republic then they were then imo. Tough thing to measure so we'll have to agree to differ.

[SaucyJack]

some good points here.
a few points from me.
i mentioned this before and someone argued with me about it, but before the troubles there WAS a fairly decent support for the NI team amongst catholics, not all, but still a reasonable representation.
considering i am from a mostly protestant town, i know at least 5 or 6 catholics who go to the NI matches out of the 30 odd that i know personally who go.
all i can say is that if you are from northern ireland get yourself down to a NI match.
surely a few "no surrenders" during an anthem that lasts all of about 2 mins isn't enough of an excuse not to go?
i'd like to see our team for all our people, and that includes you steve. if its good enough for martin oneill and pat jennings to play for (with pride - one an ex-gaa player and one a celtic fan/now manager) then its good enough for you to support. isn't gerry armstrong from somewhere up the falls? all led by jim boyce the c'ville chairman.
i'll agree there were years, mostly late 80s to mid 90s, when it went a bit downhill, but the lennon incident, imo, was a catalyst for us to take a look at ourselves and stop the rot.
there's very little to be offended by now and if you still are offended then you'll never be able to support your locality's team. there's not much more that can be done.
if (mostly younger) catholics still prefer to support the ROI then the mud can't be slung at us for it. i can't help feeling peer pressure in nationalist areas is also a factor here to some degree.
as someone said, elements of the ROI support are arguably more offensive to protestants than NI fans are to you.

all i can say to northern catholics is - give it a go. support your local lads, and lets face it- thats the reason for football teams in general. the team always had representatives from both sides and it needs representatives from both communities as fans. if you go to be offended i'm sure you will. if you go to enjoy yourself i'm also sure you will.
basically - will you partake in the community or will you deliberately ostracise(sp?)yourself and keep things segragated by not participating?
ps. re: anthems....i'd be for one of our own but the problem is what song? danny boy isn't exactly any livelier than gstq! there's not a lot of decent choices out there tbh



to some people on a small island, "local" is a relative term, someone from Donegal or Cavan might be "local" to someone from Derry or Fermanagh.

[gspain]

Before the troubles there was a fairly decent support for NI from the Republic.

4 guys from Limerick went up to Belfast in 1946 for the NI v England game on the saturday and then on to Dublin on the Monday for the RoI v Eng game.

There were special trains from Dublin in 1966 for the NI v England game.

There was certainly cross community support during the world cups in 1982 & 1986. I imagine there was also in 1958.

[Partizan]

I recall watching a N Ireland match a few years back and recall seeing a Derry City NISC flag or it could have been a green & blue flag DCFC on it, not sure.

Whats the story with you Derry lads? Do you support NI as your first team or your allegiances now are alligned squarely with RoI ever since you left the Irish League? :confused:

tbh, as a southern Irish Republican Socialist myself, I have no problem with anyone supporting the wee 6 and I always look out for them anytime they play and would love to see them do well. I have absolutley nothing against Protestants, both North & South and even have some good mates who are from the other side. I even played football with an Irish Jew. All this talk about Celtic jerseys and the naked sectarianism and flag waving from both sides has me nearly spewing over a sink bowl.

The sooner the bigots are told to f-off, the better for everyone.

Eanna, I know how you feel about the stick fighting man. You C/\wkies won the thing so put up with the exploits of Setanta Og O hAlpin crap until the bandwagon starts up again next July. Rather you than me mate. :D

[Éanna]

Eanna, I know how you feel about the stick fighting man. You C/\wkies won the thing so put up with the exploits of Setanta Og O hAlpin crap until the bandwagon starts up again next July. Rather you than me mate. :D
:eek: shudder. the thought of it all makes me ill

[dcfcsteve]

I recall watching a N Ireland match a few years back and recall seeing a Derry City NISC flag or it could have been a green & blue flag DCFC on it, not sure.

Whats the story with you Derry lads? Do you support NI as your first team or your allegiances now are alligned squarely with RoI ever since you left the Irish League? :confused: :D

There is, or at least was recently, a green and blue 'Derry City Norn Iron' flag. I can't recall who owned it, but it was a Derry fan - Maribor should know. I do, however, recall a picture of it that appeared on the DCFC forum from a Northern Ireland away trip. It had about 6 Norn Iron fans standing/lying around it with their arms mimicking holding and pointing rifles at the camera, and their faces blacked out. Odd behaviour, to say the least. Some might even say disturbing....

The vast majority of Derry City fans support the Republic. Each will have their own reason/mix of reasons for doing so, generally from the the following :

- Politics.
- An inability to identify with the the Northern Ireland team.
- A dislike of Northern Ireland fans.
- A dislike of the official and unoffiail Unionist symbolism at NI games
- A dislike of the IFA for their treatment of DCFC from 1972-1985.
- A greater affinity with southern fans since we joined the EL.
- The fact the Republic are a much better and more succesful side now.

I only know of one DCFC fan who supports the north over the south. Any others I know who support the north (e.g. Maribor) also go to see the south, and I am guessing they would support the Republic primarily (but that's for them to confirm).

[Dodge]

We had little tv coverage of Scottish football in those days and celtic are far far bigger now in the Republic then they were then imo. Tough thing to measure so we'll have to agree to differ.
I don't think that can be disputed but its not restricted to Celtic either. Loads of blokes I went to school with who ahd no interest in football are now life long Man U/Liverpool devotees.

A lot of them would have Celtic as their second side. None of them would choose Celtic for footballing reasons

[Macy]

tbh I think the support is largely as "bad" as each other when it comes to sectarianism. There does seem to be an element that can't see that doesn't see that their songs are offensive to the other side. I mean on this thread we've got people saying about Rangers shirts at games of the North and then others defending Celtic shirts at Lansdowne, saying The Sash is offensive but the Fields of Athenry definitely isn't, Billy Boy's is, RA songs aren't.....

I actually think that the Republic is also a pretty sectarian state itself tbh. Hopefully that'll change with the increased cultural mix, but being brought up where you had mates of practically every religion you can think of, I certainly notice it being commented on. I also know several Protestants who feel the need to hide their religion in their workplace even in this day and age.

[lopez]

I was at the NI v Spain game two years ago in Belfast and I agree with you Steve, the fans, in terms of supporting their side, were some of the best I've seen. I thought then that while NI would find it hard against the cr*p teams that they could pull off victory against a top side. They could have beaten Spain that day, and they did the impossible last Wednesday. As for sectarianism, the odd King Billy scarfe - if I'm going to call 'Gers shirts 'sectarian' then I'll have to concede Celtic shirts are too, which I won't - was spotted but the anthem - complete with 'No surrender' - was sung by what I thought were few people. Everyone stood for it but it surprised me that in a place with such a reputation as a bastion of loyalism that so many chose to keep quiet.

While the 'Republic's' support has its problems I disagree with what 'motorcycleman' says about the side and protestants, unless he considers himself British or is of immediate British descent. The culture of republicanism is not anti-protestant but anti-colonial and imperial, of which Britain has been the sole culprit in Ireland for 800 years. Protestants are everywhere within Irish nationalist history. Two protestants have been heads of states in Ireland. RCs can't even marry the head of state of Britain but - believe me - there is no shortage of patriotism (and fawning of the Windsors) amongst British Catholics because of it. Conversely, quite a few Irish Protestants I know support Celtic over Rangers. One I knew did the opposite but was no less Irish for it.

Finally, the rise of sectarianism as observed by Gary. My first experience of Irish fans was walking into a minutes silence for the hunger strikers in Rotterdam in 1981 which was broken up by the singing of the soldiers song and the burning of a Union Jack outside an English pub called 'The Double Diamond.' Afterwards the Dutch flag was set on fire (either because of King Bill or that the colours were the same as the Butchers' Apron). I - and my Dad who I was with - found this particularly disgusting, especially when two old pensioners - who probably hadn't seen such behaviour since the Wermacht were in town - complained about this affront. When Ireland became a successfull team - and support increased - this side of the support became heavily diluted. To me, there has been nothing since that can compare with some of the stuff that went on before Euro 88.

[dcfcsteve]

Finally, the rise of sectarianism as observed by Gary. My first experience of Irish fans was walking into a minutes silence for the hunger strikers in Rotterdam in 1981 which was broken up by the singing of the soldiers song and the burning of a Union Jack outside an English pub called 'The Double Diamond.' Afterwards the Dutch flag was set on fire (either because of King Bill or that the colours were the same as the Butchers' Apron). I - and my Dad who I was with - found this particularly disgusting, especially when two old pensioners - who probably hadn't seen such behaviour since the Wermacht were in town - complained about this affront. When Ireland became a successfull team - and support increased - this side of the support became heavily diluted. To me, there has been nothing since that can compare with some of the stuff that went on before Euro 88.

Whilst such actions were clearly reprehensible Lopez, they were sadly a sign of the times and not to be unexpected. Apart from the 1969-1972 period, the Hunger Strikes was the most divisive and heated period in the Troubles - particularly for the nationalist community. Evereyone had a view - including very respectable middle class people on both sides. It therefore doesn't surprise me to hear that things like this happened at the time.

But that was 24 years ago. Fast-forward to 2005, and Northern Ireland is thankfully a very different place. The fans of both teams on the island are also thankfully different people (or, to be more accurate, are just more broadly represented, with less reason and intent to act as they would have done in more troubled times). But the IFA has not moved with the times to reflect this, and still dresses itself exclusively in the symbolism of the Unionist community. How many people chose to sing along to GSTQ at a game is not the issue. It is simply unacceptable in modern times for the IFA to stubbornly remain a bastion of the old way of life in Northern Ireland - whilst hypocritically claiming to represent all within the province.

[gspain]

The guy beside me at the Azerbaijan game pointed out a Derry city fan called Sean inv frornt of us but I didn't meet him. He apparently brings his Derry City flag to all games home and away. I don't know his surname and even if I did it would not be approrpriate to post it on an internet messageboard.

Derry City still have quite a few protestant fans despite joining the LoI and playing on a sunday for years. However I would imagine the majority of fans in the Brandywell support the Republic.

Note NI have played a few underage Internationals at the Brandywell.

[Dodge]

Note NI have played a few underage Internationals at the Brandywell.
Which was touted by some as a move by the IFA to suss out the feelings in Derry for a return to the IL...

Not saying there's any truth in that BTW

[magic moments]

check this website out, www.ourweecontry.co.uk

Have to agree that the north's support is a lot more vocal than ours, however having attended a few northern ireland games in the mid to late 80's against( ingerland) there were at that time were def more sectarian chants than i have heard from all my time following the REPUBLIC. :ball:

[motorcycleman]

Lopez - No,I'm not of immediate British descent,nor have I any relatives who live in Britain.My ancestors arrived in Ireland even before the pilgrim fathers landed in what is now the U.S.

Macy - I couldn't agree with your' comments more especially the last sentence.Being a "P"here you are conscious of it & you don't want to attract any unwanted attention to yourself.BTW I was really impressed on what a family friendly club Longford Town are on attending both Setanta Cup games in Longford.

[Andyh]

Personally, as a Northern Protestant and unionist with a very small "u". I feel no allegiance to the Queen/Royals at all, so therefore I stand in silence in Windsor Park when it is played, as many others do it must be said. I would love a more representative anthem, that actually had something to do with the country, although it is quite a divisive issue amongst fans.

On the issue of flags again i really don't feel allegiance to any fleg it must be said, i kinda reckon most flags in NI/Ireland are somewhat tarnished by paramilitaries/sectarian violence, as someone mentioned earlier. It has to be said though the vast majority of flags at Windsor are the NI ones and not union jacks.

The best flag for NI i believe would be the IFA crest, which i've always thought was excellent, and it's good to see that so many people are starting to bring them to games rather than more political flags.

Finally, i don't know if anyone on here has seen the new NI top launched for the IFA's 125th anniversary. If not, the badge is based on the original all ireland badge from 1880, basically a cross of st patrick with a big harp in the middle. It just sums up the number of contradictions in NI society, when kids in loyalist areas run about in this top, yet its so 'Irish' looking.

I think its great by the way, i've worn it to the last two games, including the victory against engerland, so it must be a bit of a lucky charm. I'm superstitious in that way about football, so i'll be wearin' it to the next two games.

[geysir]

The crest is an excellent idea from Andy, I have only seen the old one he is talking about I was gobsmacked when I saw it, it truly is a work of art.
Anything but GSTQ, even that great song of unity from the Belfast strikes of the 1930''s "Yes we got no bananas today" would do nicely :)