Question re Norn Iron

[lopez]

Finally, i don't know if anyone on here has seen the new NI top launched for the IFA's 125th anniversary. If not, the badge is based on the original all ireland badge from 1880, basically a cross of st patrick with a big harp in the middle. It just sums up the number of contradictions in NI society, when kids in loyalist areas run about in this top, yet its so 'Irish' looking.

I think its great by the way, i've worn it to the last two games, including the victory against engerland, so it must be a bit of a lucky charm. I'm superstitious in that way about football, so i'll be wearin' it to the next two games.Plenty of old photos with that badge and I've saw an exhibition in Belfast with original shirts, in 1994. Funny that Ireland, pre partition, used to play in Blue and that old newspapers would often describe it as 'Royal' if it was the Ulster Newsletter or 'St Patrick's' if the Irish News or Freeman's Journal. Also I've seen team pictures of the North (still called Ireland and picking players from the 32 counties) with Irish rugby jerseys at the same time the Free State were wearing exactly the same shirts. Oh for those pre registered trade mark and corporate image days! :(

[gspain]

Plenty of old photos with that badge and I've saw an exhibition in Belfast with original shirts, in 1994. Funny that Ireland, pre partition, used to play in Blue and that old newspapers would often describe it as 'Royal' if it was the Ulster Newsletter or 'St Patrick's' if the Irish News or Freeman's Journal. Also I've seen team pictures of the North (still called Ireland and picking players from the 32 counties) with Irish rugby jerseys at the same time the Free State were wearing exactly the same shirts. Oh for those pre registered trade mark and corporate image days! :(

The first F.A.I. side also worse blue. This was the Irish team that played in the 1924 Olympics in Paris which was the forerunner to the World Cup. They were also the first team to play under the tricolour.

[gspain]

I don't think that can be disputed but its not restricted to Celtic either. Loads of blokes I went to school with who ahd no interest in football are now life long Man U/Liverpool devotees.

A lot of them would have Celtic as their second side. None of them would choose Celtic for footballing reasons

A lot of people would have had celtic as their 2nd side 15 years ago or so but would have rarely seen them play. When Celtic came here in 86 and had a lucky win over Rovers almost all the crowd were supporting Rovers. Now it would be the other way around.

[Dodge]

A lot of people would have had celtic as their 2nd side 15 years ago or so but would have rarely seen them play. When Celtic came here in 86 and had a lucky win over Rovers almost all the crowd were supporting Rovers. Now it would be the other way around.
Funny you should mention that game. I was brought along by my dad and uncle. It was the first non Pats game I'd go to...

Only being a nipper I asked why were the Celtic fans burning the British flag, "are they not British dad?"

[motorcycleman]

On this topic on people feeling alienated from their respective national teams,here are some items to consider on the future of Irish football?
I know that these following items have been mentioned before.The links between the countries and people of these Islands are deeply interwoven.We have more in common than apart.

The Irish F.A. as the fourth oldest F.A. sits as an equal member with the Welsh,English & Scottish football associations and four representatives of FIFA itself on the International Football Board – the rule-making body that determines the Laws of the Game.Before 1921 a team represented the entire island. Both the I.F.A.(original) & F.A.I. (new rival association) claimed to represent all of Ireland after partition until the 1950's.The IF.A.'s help in the development of the game(penatly kicks,offside rule etc.)should be fully recognised.Therefore the (original)"Irish" F.A. name remains and playing for the (original) "Irish" Cup in a new revamped all-Ireland"Irish" League.

The "new developed" I.F.A.'s main objective is (back to it's original plan) to promote the game throughout Ireland.
Instead of the Belfast/Dublin H.Q. tug-of-war why not base it's H.Q. in say "Athlone" the center of Ireland ?
BTW I'm not from Athlone.
What issues/concerns would people have with the "new developed" Irish football association keeping it's position as a "Home nation" on the I.F.B. ?
As both associations wear green & white,would an (original) St.Patrick's blue strip be acceptable as an alternative away strip?The crest as on the 125th anniversary I.F.A. strip can be adapted to modern standards.

Now the tricky items of Flag & national anthem.(Flannel suit on)
How about a cross of St.Patrick with the crests of the four provinces in each of the four white sections ?
Perhaps "Danny Boy"could be musically adapted into an acceptable anthem.

The overwhelming majority of Irish international players of both Northern and Republic of Ireland play in the English and Scottish Leagues. The link with the proffesional footballers association should be strenghtened.The Irish part of the P.F.A. emblem I don't think can offend anyone.The P.F.A. could help as advisors here to both clubs and players as to the development of the proffesional game.

In the spirit of tolerance,acceptance,accomodation and vision what do people think/ suggest ?

[geysir]

Macy,
Interesting statement that "the 26 counties is a pretty sectarian state itself".
How broad is your definition of sectarianism, is everything to do with the national struggle interpreted as sectarian, is Tom Barry regarded as a sectarian mass murderer, are all songs emanating from that time and before, sectarian?
My definition of sectarian is, intolerance based on religious affiliation. "Because you are a protestant/catholic I am prejudiced to you as a person" That prejudice can take many forms, all of them totally ignorant, from the incident you described in the workplace to not able to find employment to getting your head blown off.
There are radically diiferent degrees on how prejudice is expressed
and based on what I witnessed here in Iceland with both traveling supporters there is a huge difference between the union jack clad mob that followed NI to the tricoloured clad supporters that followed the ROI.

What would get me back to supporting NI ?
I already recognize that there have been big changes since the Lennon booing, I am more than half interested already. Windsor pk is a lot more appealing now.
For a new song,
Danny boy, the Derry air or the Londonderry air :) Too slow imo, too tragic.
and the same goes for the drunk in "Carrickfergus". "I'll tell me ma" no thanks.
The rugby song "Irelands call" doesn't deserve the slating it receives.

I can accept that there are 2 soccer federations and there is no realistic chance of a 32 county team in the near future.
Cross border sporting rivalry, Setanta competition to be continued not only for the cash it generates but the boast of All Ireland champions should be priceless. Both leagues getting stronger and mutually benifiting each other through this competition. Eventually a showpiece final.
Changes in the south, once and for all an end to the mindless sectarian booing of Rangers players and ex players at Landsdowne rd. ATM I can't for the life of me see one objectionable word or line in the Fields of Athenry. And wearing green and white hooped shirts is okay as long as they behave, increase the stewarding to ensure this. Otherwise remove ticket allocation or put conditions on allocation.

[-lamb-]

The first F.A.I. side also worse blue. This was the Irish team that played in the 1924 Olympics in Paris which was the forerunner to the World Cup. They were also the first team to play under the tricolour.

as far as i know, the "official" colour for the RoI is blue. i think....

[holidaysong]

as far as i know, the "official" colour for the RoI is blue. i think....

To the best of my knowledge, the coat of arms of the state is a gold harp on a blue background. However this could be the President's seal or something.
My copy of the constitution is blue with the gold harp on it.
However the tricolour is the official flag obviously.

[Gerrit]

I have a wee question here, out of interest in the history of my current homeland, and also as an Atheist myself.

I don't get why so many people speak of Protestants vs Catholics instead of Loyalists vs Nationalists. I know the two are often combined (protestant-loyalist and catholic-nationalist) but isn't it a generalisation?

I mean, I have met a few catholics who still wanted N.Ireland to stay under British reign because of the government that seems to financially help citizens more than the ROI government. So these people were Catholic, but also Loyalist. I know it will be a very slight minority, but still...

And I know Northern Ireland also has a small Jewish and Muslim community (the Islamic Centre of Belfast is not too far from my home), they are neither Protestant nor Catholic but will probably also have a political preference for ROI or UK. And then there's atheists who believe in no god but still will have a purely political-based idea about if NI should be Irish or British.

So isn't it a bit a wrong generalisation to speak of Catholics and Protestants instead of Unionists and Nationalists? I mean, it is ignoring the minority that practices another or no religion, and ignoring the protestant nationalists and catholic loyalists...

Not trying to be ignorant or stubborn here, I'm trying to get some more insight in the country where I live now.



And as for the football-related stuff: the question we should ask: if NI changes flag and anthem, would it change much in terms of support? Would the ones that support ROI now suddenly change and start supporting North over South? I think we must see as well if th Nationalist community that would is big enough. If the support would still be 80% Loyalist, then I guess it makes sense the IFA tries to sell its product (the national team) to the people that are interested in buying it (= going to the games). If those happen to be 80% Loyalist it is not unlogical that they will still use the current flag and use the term Ulster. I mean, football these days is economy and everyone aims for its target audience and tries to make its product attractive to that audience...
I'm not mentionning GSTQ because it is clear that many NI fans want something else as well. Londonderry Air or Danny Boy would be good choices IMO because they are at least typical Northern Ireland.




and off-topic: Belgium has its part of sectarianism as well, as Flanders (Dutch speaking part) has a strong movement wanting to split off from the French speaking part. At sports manifestation lot of people will wave the Flemish flag and the separatist party won the last regional elections. Their main issues are the fact that more money goes from Flanders to Wallony than otherwise, the former French dominance of society, and the fact that Brussels is mainly a french-speaking city.

I am, to adopt a term from this island, a Unionist and refuse to label myself as Flemish. I just don't see the point in further divide in Belgium and would rather see less rights to local governments and more to national government. Then also I am a wee bit Republican because I am not pro-monarchy. But it doesn't bother me that much because it is also a bit of a symbol for the united Belgium I wish to see maintained.

[geysir]

Not trying to be ignorant or stubborn here, I'm trying to get some more insight in the country where I live now.
.
Gerrit, I think if you want more insight with those things then go to the library and start reading. Take your time to pick out what appeals to you.

[Éanna]

Being a "P"here you are conscious of it & you don't want to attract any unwanted attention to yourself.I'm absolutely astounded by that comment, I really am. As i said, I have many protestant friends, and none of them are in the least bit conscious of it. I just don't see it as an issue, and neither does anyone else I know

[Éanna]

Personally, as a Northern Protestant and unionist with a very small "u". I feel no allegiance to the Queen/Royals at all, so therefore I stand in silence in Windsor Park when it is played, as many others do it must be said. I would love a more representative anthem, that actually had something to do with the country, although it is quite a divisive issue amongst fans.

On the issue of flags again i really don't feel allegiance to any fleg it must be said, i kinda reckon most flags in NI/Ireland are somewhat tarnished by paramilitaries/sectarian violence, as someone mentioned earlier. It has to be said though the vast majority of flags at Windsor are the NI ones and not union jacks.

The best flag for NI i believe would be the IFA crest, which i've always thought was excellent, and it's good to see that so many people are starting to bring them to games rather than more political flags.

Finally, i don't know if anyone on here has seen the new NI top launched for the IFA's 125th anniversary. If not, the badge is based on the original all ireland badge from 1880, basically a cross of st patrick with a big harp in the middle. It just sums up the number of contradictions in NI society, when kids in loyalist areas run about in this top, yet its so 'Irish' looking.

I think its great by the way, i've worn it to the last two games, including the victory against engerland, so it must be a bit of a lucky charm. I'm superstitious in that way about football, so i'll be wearin' it to the next two games.
excellent post, some intriguing suggestions

[Macy]

I'm absolutely astounded by that comment, I really am. As i said, I have many protestant friends, and none of them are in the least bit conscious of it. I just don't see it as an issue, and neither does anyone else I know
Eanna, you said you went to a protestant school, so why should they?

In fairness this would be a slightly older generation, but just because you and me don't see it as an issue doesn't mean it isn't for them. The fact they feel they can't be open about it is surely enough sign to say it exists?

[Éanna]

Eanna, you said you went to a protestant school, so why should they?

In fairness this would be a slightly older generation, but just because you and me don't see it as an issue doesn't mean it isn't for them. The fact they feel they can't be open about it is surely enough sign to say it exists?
I did indeed, but not all my protestant friends would have gone there, and as I said, it just doesn't appear as an issue for ANYONE I know. I'm not saying it isn't an issue, if even one person feels that it is an issue, then it has to be addressed, I'm just surprised by it, thats all.

[Pablo]

I did indeed, but not all my protestant friends would have gone there, and as I said, it just doesn't appear as an issue for ANYONE I know. I'm not saying it isn't an issue, if even one person feels that it is an issue, then it has to be addressed, I'm just surprised by it, thats all.

i always knew you had a protestant odour about you! planter!

[Andyh]

Just with the discussion of Protestants in the South, some might find the figures below interesting.

Year Total Catholics Protestants Others % Catholic % Protestant
1891 3,468,694 3,099,003 356,786 12,905 89.34% 10.29%
1901 3,221,823 2,878,271 328,850 14,702 89.34% 10.21%
1911 3,139,688 2,812,509 311,461 15,718 89.58% 9.92%
1926 2,971,992 2,751,269 207,307 13,416 92.57% 6.98%
1936 2,968,420 2,773,920 182,746 11,754 93.45% 6.16%
1946 2,955,107 2,786,033 157,054 12,020 94.28% 5.31%
1961 2,818,341 2,673,473 129,644 15,224 94.86% 4.60%
1971 2,978,248 2,795,666 119,437 63,145 93.87% 4.01%
1981 3,443,405 3,204,476 115,411 123,518 93.06% 3.35%
1991 3,525,719 3,228,327 107,423 189,969 91.57% 3.05%

The sharpest fall came after 1908 and the Ne Temere decree, and obviously after partition in 1921-1922. I wouldn't really imagine that Protestant's living in ROI nowadays would have too many problems identifying with the country, could be wrong though as some posts on here have suggested. Personally my own family came from Mohill in County Leitrim, and then Clones, County Monaghan, before moving to the black north (around 1930s/40s).

[REVIP]

Just with the discussion of Protestants in the South, some might find the figures below interesting.

. I wouldn't really imagine that Protestant's living in ROI nowadays would have too many problems identifying with the country, could be wrong though as some posts on here have suggested.

The figures for the last Census gave a sharp rise in Protestant numbers

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol12_t1_10.pdf:

The Church of Ireland, to which I belong, grew by 30%. The Presbyterians and Methodists by 100% - the Catholic proportion of the population is now around 88%.

I can't understand why any Protestant here would have a problem identifying with Ireland as their country. We moved down from the North to work seven years ago. The Protestants I have met are all proud to be Irish.

[lopez]

I've heard also that Protestant numbers are beginning to rise too. However I think this is down to immigration particuarly people from the North and those of non-Irish descent coming from Wales, Scotland and England as well as Latvians, Estonians and African Protestants. One of the saddest landmarks on the decline of Protestants in the 26C during the 20C is St Andrew's church behind Temple Bar. This is now a trourism centre. I first saw it last year and I was wondering whether things were so bad in Ireland that a Catholic church has been closed due to dropping numbers. But I was wrong.

Jews have also seen a sharp decline in numbers but on the other hand the numbers of muslims in Ireland has grown hugely. How many muslims were living in Ireland 10 years after partition. Possibly a couple of hundred at most I'd guess.

[dcfcsteve]

I've heard also that Protestant numbers are beginning to rise too. However I think this is down to immigration particuarly people from the North and those of non-Irish descent coming from Wales, Scotland and England as well as Latvians, Estonians and African Protestants. One of the saddest landmarks on the decline of Protestants in the 26C during the 20C is St Andrew's church behind Temple Bar. This is now a trourism centre. I first saw it last year and I was wondering whether things were so bad in Ireland that a Catholic church has been closed due to dropping numbers. But I was wrong.

Jews have also seen a sharp decline in numbers but on the other hand the numbers of muslims in Ireland has grown hugely. How many muslims were living in Ireland 10 years after partition. Possibly a couple of hundred at most I'd guess.

The demographics of countries are always changing, and have been literally since humans started settling in placed. 500 odd years ago Spain was largely a Muslim country and protestants didn't even exist. It's all very different now.

The religious composition of countries changes over time for a variety of reasons. So long as those changes are not the result of either actual or perceived discrimination, then it's just one of those things in life.

The Irish state's attitude towards non-Catholics has actually improved dramatically over the last 30 years. Note the changes on contraception, divorce, abortion etc. Any protestants that were in the state 30 or more years after partition are therefore unlikely to have moved away after then due to 'discrimination' or a feeling of alienation. If it had been such a big issue they would've moved before.

[big p from owc]

The vast majority of Derry City fans support the Republic. Each will have their own reason/mix of reasons for doing so, generally from the the following :

- A dislike of Northern Ireland fans.


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why would this be DCFCSTEVE ?

[dcfcsteve]

The vast majority of Derry City fans support the Republic. Each will have their own reason/mix of reasons for doing so, generally from the the following :

- A dislike of Northern Ireland fans.


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why would this be ?


Jeez Big P - I'm genuinely surprised you need to ask !

There's still a bigoted element within Northern Ireland's fanbase who see internationals as 'Ulster's Big Day Out'. This might be less evident on the terraces now than it was in the 80's and 90's, but those people haven't all gone away you know.

Regardless - there was for a couple of decades a very overtly sectarian element to Norn iron's support, which would've driven a lot of Derry City fans to support the Republic. Common sense should have suggested this.