Reenergising the forum / fans section

[SkStu]

Just off the back of SkStu's post...


I've mentioned this before (and alluded to it a number of times) but I've long felt that the moderating on the forum is far too strict. And the current lifeless state of the place is a long term consequence of that. I can only speak for myself of course so I'd be keen to hear the views of others.

As an example of what I'm saying (which partly includes the time it's taken to respond) and in direct response to your suggestion - I don't have the impetus to do so.

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.


To counter your argument, the mods aren't doing this for financial gain, they volunteer time out of their day to keep the show on the road
tets does give excellent stats and figures that must take time to put together etc.

My original post quoted Tets out of frustration with the moderation and the fact that 2 of the 3 posts that were moved to rubbish were totally fine. JRG's is the other post which was just (to me) mildly annoying and easily ignored. I want to be clear that I do have a lot of respect for Tets and that he does this - and does what he thinks is best as a moderator - when probably no one else will put their hand up to do it.

[Eirambler]

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.



My original post quoted Tets out of frustration with the moderation and the fact that 2 of the 3 posts that were moved to rubbish were totally fine. JRG's is the other post which was just (to me) mildly annoying and easily ignored. I want to be clear that I do have a lot of respect for Tets and that he does this - and does what he thinks is best as a moderator - when probably no one else will put their hand up to do it.

Sorry but I'm going to have to judge you here! If the answer is deemed to be the YBIG forum I'm honestly not sure what the question is - it's a cesspit from what I can see. I agree this forum is very heavily moderated, sometimes I wonder if the reason is actually because YBIG is the way it is and there's almost an overemphasis on preventing foot.ie going the same way.

Internet forums are obviously a declining method of communication. Which is a shame. I doubt there's many under 30s using them these days, except for maybe Reddit. I don't know what the solution to that is, or even whether there is one, but I very much doubt it's YBIG.

[SkStu]

I was just responding to a request by The Fly for some theories. I am not a poster on YBIG but there are plenty on here who are so i will let them comment on their experience there - as i said there is some rubbish and some a-holes on there (and its a crap user platform) but looking past that, there is good information from many posters, broad perspectives and a decent amount of tolerance for "robust" debate.

I am not saying that YBIG is the answer to the question of "why foot.ie (LOI forum aside maybe) is on life support" but when i browse it, the difference in popularity between the two sites is staggering. It begs the question why.

[Eirambler]

I'll give my theory. And it's just a theory. But there seems to be an awful lot of crap posted on that forum. However that crap amounts to a lot of posts, which makes it seem busy. If you stripped away the crap and just limited the post count to the actual sensible football stuff, I don't know that it's actually any busier than foot.ie. Certainly in terms of the Ireland team discussion anyway, which is generally the only section I would go near on either forum. I used to like boards.ie for wider discussion, but that's in serious decline too and not worth the effort anymore.

[pineapple stu]

I am not saying that YBIG is the answer to the question of "why foot.ie (LOI forum aside maybe) is on life support" but when i browse it, the difference in popularity between the two sites is staggering. It begs the question why.
There is a big difference alright (Eirambler's suggestion aside, which may or mayn't be a factor).

I think though when the YBIG fanzine moved across (see here (https://foot.ie/threads/284396-Archiving-this-forum)), the fanzine went towards putting money into the atmosphere at games. Even now I think they co-ordinate the singing section at home games, so that naturally gives them a base to build on that we don't have here. They also have a social media presence which foot doesn't have (twitter, etc) - I don't know if that helps any, but it has 36k followers so it can hardly hurt. And if it does, is it worth setting up a foot.ie twitter account to highlight new threads that are being discussed? And who'd run it if so? (I know Adam has said before he was happy to keep away from the likes of twitter because, well, just have a read of twitter...)

All we have is the general lack of the numptiness that's so often seen there!

(And this is probably something that should be split out into a different thread of course)

[CraftyToePoke]

I think its time to take up the Support section option, on modding & if it can be less rigid the above possibilities to reenergise the site & what might be done. They can go hand in hand. If anyone has the inclination.

[SkStu]

There is a big difference alright (Eirambler's suggestion aside, which may or mayn't be a factor).

I think though when the YBIG fanzine moved across (see here (https://foot.ie/threads/284396-Archiving-this-forum)), the fanzine went towards putting money into the atmosphere at games. Even now I think they co-ordinate the singing section at home games, so that naturally gives them a base to build on that we don't have here. They also have a social media presence which foot doesn't have (twitter, etc) - I don't know if that helps any, but it has 36k followers so it can hardly hurt. And if it does, is it worth setting up a foot.ie twitter account to highlight new threads that are being discussed? And who'd run it if so? (I know Adam has said before he was happy to keep away from the likes of twitter because, well, just have a read of twitter...)

All we have is the general lack of the numptiness that's so often seen there!

(And this is probably something that should be split out into a different thread of course)

These are all great points. As I think I said in a previous post, I dont think it is all down to moderation here but that i was struggling with what some of the other reasons might be - and these are all very valid.

While I'm here, I'll also just add that I also dont think that foot.ie is "losing" posters to YBIG but the base here has diminished significantly. Since I started browsing foot in 2006/7ish (thanks for the history lesson on the other thread), there appears to have been an initial exodus in the 2009ish timeframe (I remember Bluebeard, MagicMe etc) and then since about 2015/6 it has been a slow drain with a lot of good and frequent posters going partially or completely quiet (Delorean, Razor, Geysir - to name just a few)...and less fresh meat coming in although there are a handful of really good, knowledgable posters like Liamoo, SamHayden and ElatedScum).

I think the diminishment is partly down to personal factors (we're all getting older, busier etc) and partly down to moderation - and by that i mean some absolute cretins getting away with murder for far too long coupled with long standing, well established posters getting infractions and bans at the same time - not to mention silly stuff like 24 hour pun rules and this latest Sagnol stuff.

Other forums have suffered from the same approach and as a result - I think the word association thread is all we have elsewhere and politics gets occasional spurts of life until someone shares something that goes against the moderators personal view. I've said it before - extreme trolling and personal abuse/bullying should be the threshold for whats deemed unacceptable - let the rest go, even if it violates your world view or it annoys you (gets on your nerves).

[pineapple stu]

While I'm here, I'll also just add that I also dont think that foot.ie is "losing" posters to YBIG but the base here has diminished significantly. Since I started browsing foot in 2006/7ish (thanks for the history lesson on the other thread), there appears to have been an initial exodus in the 2009ish timeframe (I remember Bluebeard, MagicMe etc) and then since about 2015/6 it has been a slow drain with a lot of good and frequent posters going partially or completely quiet (Delorean, Razor, Geysir - to name just a few)...and less fresh meat coming in although there are a handful of really good, knowledgable posters like Liamoo, SamHayden and ElatedScum).
Yeah, it'd be great if there was a way to ping some of the older posters as a reminder to start posting again. Here's the posters (https://foot.ie/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=169278) on the 2012/13 Irish Abroad thread for example and there's some names there it'd be great to see back.

It's a habit though and it's easy gotten out of as you get older and busier. I remember BonnieShels popping back in a welcome flurry of enthusiasm which lasted a few months - that's just the nature of things. Maybe that's something a twitter account would prompt you to do - I dunno.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if, say, a mod started one thread a week in Current Affairs - I think it's mostly quite sensible (with some wacky American ideas in there too) and that might be the prompt to spark some life. Though a lot of people seem to view the forum by forum rather by latest post and miss stuff in other forums. Never quite understood that tbh.

[Acornvilla]

Hello, I myself joined this Forum in maybe 2009? I had lurked for years previous and always found it a great source of football chat with less nonsense than you'd find elsewhere.

Because of the work I do, I have to put far too much focus on social media, and as the likes of football twitter thrived, I dedicated less time to sitting down and reading any sort of forums really. I barely checked this place for a decade and almost forgot about it, which is funny because I had spent so much time reading previous. Social media has become a bit of a hellscape over the last 4/5 years, so I made a conscious decision to try and take more time away from it and put my energies elsewhere, that is why I've been posting a little bit recently.

I do think forums have suffered a bit with the changing trends of how people spend their time/consume media and this kind of space takes a bit more of an attention span. Word of mouth and telling some like minded pals you like the forum is probably as likely to bring new people in as anything, but I also don't think a socials presence could hurt. At the very least it might remind some lapsed users that the space exists and Stu misses them :D

[Eirambler]

It's kind of been mentioned in one of the posts above, but a bit of success for the national team would do more than anything to improve the use of the forum. A rising tide and all that. Apart from the very odd, short lived moment here or there - Mick getting us within a game of Euro 2020, the playoff semi that we lost on penalties and the little run Kenny had when Barry was there and we put away a few weaker teams, there has been little to get excited about in terms of the national team on any kind of consistent basis for about six or seven years now, and it's only been getting worse with the Canham manager shambles this year. And there has been nothing that has lasted any significant period of time to allow the public to really buy into the team. That's killing forums like this also.

[CraftyToePoke]

It's kind of been mentioned in one of the posts above, but a bit of success for the national team would do more than anything to improve the use of the forum. A rising tide and all that. Apart from the very odd, short lived moment here or there - Mick getting us within a game of Euro 2020, the playoff semi that we lost on penalties and the little run Kenny had when Barry was there and we put away a few weaker teams, there has been little to get excited about in terms of the national team on any kind of consistent basis for about six or seven years now, and it's only been getting worse with the Canham manager shambles this year. And there has been nothing that has lasted any significant period of time to allow the public to really buy into the team. That's killing forums like this also.

That doesn't account for the forum wide die off.

[The Fly]

[dont judge me]... I have recently been spending a lot more time browsing YBIG which i did once in the last 20 years only to say to myself, I'm never visiting there again. I haven't signed up for an account (yet) but i am on the verge of it. Overall, it is what I am looking for. Yes, there is a lot of horsesh!t on there - and some spanners - but it has a good degree of information and debate. I prefer what this site used to be and there are a lot of posters here (all of you truthfully) who i like, respect and appreciate (even when in disagreement) and many who give me a laugh when i need it - - but YBIG now offers far more of both of these elements (information and debate) than has been evident on here for the last 5+ years. Their Ireland section, their Other Football section and their Everything Else section are all thriving. I think moderation here has something to do with it but i wouldnt lay that all at Tets who i like and respect greatly. With that said, i cant think of many reasons why there is such a difference between the popularity and dynamism of the two sites.

My thoughts and suggestions revolve around two things: moderation and consolidation.

I'll preface it by stating that foot.ie for me is the International section (i.e. Ireland), together with the Other Football and Other Stuff (Current Events specifically) sections. So my suggestions pertain to those particular areas. I can't speak at all about the League section as I've no interest in it. I had always wondered why the forum had such a LoI focus, so I really appreciated the explanation pineapple stu provided in the Fans Forum earlier today.

Moderation

I can only repeat what I've already said on this which is that I've long felt that the moderating is far too strict. Tangents are all too frequently shut down, posts removed and warnings issued. All of which just reduces the attraction and impetus for people to engage and contribute. So I'd advocate a much more relaxed approach going forward.

Consolidation

At first glance one of the things that immediately differentiates foot.ie from other football forums I've visited is the sheer number of sub-sections on the home page. Perhaps others like that kind of proliferation but I think that some consolidation would be of benefit. The former heightens the appearance of inactivity...which in itself probably has the effect of contributing to said inactivity.

My proposal here then is to just have an Ireland section, an Other Football section (which would include all non-Ireland related chat and discussion), and then a General Discussion area which would include the Current Affairs, Off-Topic and Other Sports subsections.

[dahamsta]

On moderation, is it really that strict here? I operate Foot.ie on a management brief, I don't spend much time in the forums, but I see all the automated posts and the discussions in the mod forum and I rarely see anything that isn't justified. Yes, Foot.ie initially took a strict approach, which was in reaction to the chaos that was Johnny's forum - can't remember his surname - but I'd argue that it's not as strict as it used to be, and that the moderation that is there works, it's stops the chaos monkeys from taking over.

On changing the site around, I'm happy to as long as the changes are justified. Obviously I'd like to see a bigger community here, community was always the whole point of the site, and I'm willing to invest time and indeed money (in terms of software licencing and the like), but it needs to be sensible and have support from the mods and indeed community.

I've archived the Fans Forum now btw. I'm only a year or so behind. :)

[John83]

Tets just stepped away for a break, so this isn't opportune timing as he can't chime in.

As I see it, mostly the moderation involves binning lengthy off topic arguments in a thread, and very occasionally an infraction to someone who is trolling or being particularly nasty or fighting for a prolonged time, usually with the mod also having already posted in the thread to request calm or return to topic. Most interventions are in threads that have had numerous reported posts because there are also people who'd like to read about the topic at hand and not whatever bickering has broken out between the fractious twits of the day. By the standards of most fora I've ever freqented, it's relatively light touch here. By the standards of twitter, tets has a cage with rats in it in room 101 (not that I'm any nicer). People's perspectives vary depending on personal stance and whether they've personally been asked to cop on recently.

For myself, I mostly stick to well moderated spaces beause I occasionally have reason to read youtube comments. (The horror. The horror.) I've spent enough time arguing with idiots on the internet to realise that sometimes I'm the idiot (or at least that the argument has run its course) and a tap on the shoulder to remind you that you're just making the place worse for everyone is a good thing.

I'm perfectly happy to back off of that if a simple policy better than laissez-faire can be agreed, or not to let someone else moderate if I'm felt to be doing it poorly. I can just stick to reformatting post titles so I can tell who the heck Ryan Johansson is without opening wikipedia every time.

[osarusan]

There's only two places I actually see moderation happening, which are the Ireland forum and Current Affairs. I cannot recall the last time anything was moderated in the LOI forum.

In the Ireland forum, I don't think moderation is strict, I think it's just petty - the crackdown on puns, the inconsistent requests for proof within 24 hours, and things like that.

Mostly, though I just think that this kind of forum has passed its heyday, so numbers are down.

Also, because the Irish team is currently crap, we have little to discuss other than just how crap we are and why, and that kind of discussion naturally makes posters tetchy and that bit quicker to react to things.

[The Fly]

On moderation, is it really that strict here? I operate Foot.ie on a management brief, I don't spend much time in the forums, but I see all the automated posts and the discussions in the mod forum and I rarely see anything that isn't justified.
In describing it as 'far too strict' I was probably stretching it to drill home the point. Others have described it as heavily moderated or as petty.

In any case the consensus view (amongst those who have provided feedback at least) seems to be that there's too much interference.


Yes, Foot.ie initially took a strict approach, which was in reaction to the chaos that was Johnny's forum - can't remember his surname - but I'd argue that it's not as strict as it used to be, and that the moderation that is there works, it's stops the chaos monkeys from taking over.
And there was and still is merit in that approach. We can get into self-congratulatory territory here...but do I agree that the general standard of debate and engagement seen on foot.ie was higher than that typically found on other football forums.

In recent times however I think the balance has gone too far the other way and is probably contributing to an overall reduction in activity. It's becoming more of a message board and not a forum for discussion. In technical terms that may be a distinction without a difference...but I hope others get what I mean by that?


On changing the site around, I'm happy to as long as the changes are justified. Obviously I'd like to see a bigger community here, community was always the whole point of the site, and I'm willing to invest time and indeed money (in terms of software licencing and the like), but it needs to be sensible and have support from the mods and indeed community.

I've archived the Fans Forum now btw. I'm only a year or so behind. :)
I'd be interested to read what others think about the consolidation point. It's just always stood out to me I suppose.

[CraftyToePoke]

In the Ireland forum, I don't think moderation is strict, I think it's just petty - the crackdown on puns, the inconsistent

Mostly, though I just think that this kind of forum has passed its heyday, so numbers are down.

I agree fully with your first point, its when they chose to involve themselves, particularly Tets, which leaves me baffled. It seems to be personal preference led which in turn creates inconsistencies. He likes stats, is good at stats, but conversational flow & nuances seem entirely beyond him so his rulings on those are frequently really poor.

A case in point was Bielsa, an absolute super wum who smartly operated just inside the rules, that needed modding way earlier, good posters were sick of him but because of the above, he was allowed to carry on. While other conversations were shut down for being temporarily ( but generally interesting & overall relevant ) arguably off topic.

Your second point, is wrong, the heyday is over but footdot is dead. I'm on half a dozen forums like this one, one is a UK lower league club with a core support of about 7k. Its a daily hub of all topics, Tour de France, election fallout, box sets, gigs, the lot and it's all busy. So are the England / Scotland & Wales ones for direct comparison. Several smaller club ones too, by that I mean entities with a much smaller support base than ours.

There absolutely is still buy in to a discussion platform which isn't socials level nonsense & is well modded.

I think John83 deciding to use the phrases twits & to cop on above betrays a mindset which is at best unhelpful here. There's hardly anyone left John, maybe not look down your nose so obviously at those who are still here & looking to try to save the thing ? Maybe be a few percent less high handed when you have to intervene as people have clearly voted with their feet. Might be a start.

The site was once in a position to deal with posters in that way & get away with it, it no longer is but for both Ireland section mods, its still 2007 era. Tune in lads ....

All that said, renewal is key & the Twitter feed and higher profile visible online footprint is needed too. Its a crowded market place & footdot doesn't sell its overall excellent product. It isn't all on two mods, but they need to see their job as being to keep people here, they're achieving the opposite.

[Eminence Grise]

I joined in 2010, after a couple of years lurking, and it’s been a go-to almost every day since, though it’s less enjoyable than it used to be. Maybe because I’m in a different phase of life. But some of the great posters are long gone. I miss their humour and insights, the sparring that made here unmissable. There are still some, and some newer people in their place, but the quality has dropped. Sure, we’re fewer, but there’s more intolerance and unwillingness to have honest discussion.

It’s why I don’t think the ‘sclerosis’ is just a moderating issue. But an issue doesn’t have to be real: it only needs people to believe it’s real. Hats off to the mods, they do a thankless job well and are usually invisible. It’s only when something contentious crops up that moderating becomes an issue.

I see two extremes on moderating: at one, light moderating lets serially bad faith posters away with murder (look how long it took to get rid of TOWK and Bielsa’s Irish). About five years ago, trolls dragged the forum down and it hasn’t recovered. Good posters leave, but there seemed to be more than usual at the time.

Moving along, I’d say aggressive, bad-tempered posting benefits from light moderating (see the Stephen Kenny thread and some Dundalk/Shamrock Rovers interactions). To a lesser extent I’d include the dogmatists, and posters who never back up points and drag threads into whataboutery. They seem to have arrived four or five years back – maybe on the trolls’ coattails, or maybe they’re symptomatic of the decline in civility on social media. I find them off-putting, and I imagine others do, too. On this side, the posters are more to blame than the mods.

In the middle is the sweet spot where mods need only keep an eye on threads.

Then, less flexible moderating, and mods' preferences. I know Tets doesn’t want puns. I’ve argued it with him, but I respect what he does, so I curb my instincts. My puns are rare in Ireland threads (knowing he’s not here today, I’ll say they’re well done everywhere else). The problem is you can’t instinctively know what annoys a mod, especially when the situation isn’t covered in the rules (and I acknowledge that Adam ruled on the puns). I’d also include that some posters are told to give evidence for what, better phrased, is an opinion, but others aren’t. It’s capricious, and you can’t be sure whose rules you’re following, if any.

Finally, the other extreme: non-negotiable moderating. Some is obviously necessary (not calling a former FAI official a crook) or forum behaviour (no abusing posters) but some feels less so, like the Sagnol-racism and NI-players-we-might-turn posts. Both were simmering for a while, which made the embargoes feel abrupt and unfair.

So what can we do? Spread the word to new members or contact former members. More posters would be good, but might not address perceived issues. As individuals we are responsible for what we post, and maybe we are less considerate than we should be. We’ve all read interactions that would put new members off joining. I can’t be certain I haven’t written some of them.

For younger posters (I’m Gen X, and I’m assuming there are younger posters!) social media norms define online etiquette. This forum has similarities with but isn’t social media: older posters were on forums pre-Bebo and have different norms. So much of social media is a toxic cesspit and a mirror for the self-absorbed, but do we need to revisit our norms, or explain rules so that they aren’t ‘just because’ so new members can adapt and be accommodated?

I think the gap is posters not knowing why mods do what they do, and mods relying on custom and practice. Apart from rumours and allegations, there’s nothing in the rules about when proof is needed to back up a post; the phrase ‘attack the post, not the poster’ is one of the best rules we have – but it’s not in the rules; trolling is covered, but not aggression and bad temper. Maybe there’s no harm in blowing the dust off the rule book and updating it anyway.

At the end of the day, none of this directly contributes to fewer people posting. Consolidating the forum to make it more active and attractive to visitors seems sensible – Schoolboys hasn’t had a post for five years, but it’s sixth from top. Only two of the top six forums have had a post this month. Tumbleweed stuff. Grouping all Irish football at the top (international, league, league clubs, women’s, non-league) with international/world football beneath, followed by other stuff would have a cluster of active forums at the top.

And bring back Post of the Month! Not that I’m sore or anything but I’d a 50:50 chance of a medal back in (checks the thread… comes back five minutes later) November 2016. Never mind. That horse has gone from bolting into a tin can.

[CraftyToePoke]

Then, less flexible moderating, and mods preferences. I know Tets doesn’t want puns. I’ve argued it with him, but I respect what he does, so I curb my instincts. My puns are rare in Ireland threads (knowing he’s not here today, I’ll say they’re well done everywhere else). The problem is you can’t instinctively know what annoys a mod, especially when the situation isn’t covered in the rules (and I acknowledge that Adam ruled on the puns). I’d also include that some posters are told to give evidence for what, better phrased, is an opinion, but others aren’t. It’s capricious, and you can’t be sure whose rules you’re following, if any.

If its not in the rules, it shouldn't trouble a poster what a mods personal preference is IMO. Be annoyed, get over it. Like we all have to :eek:

[Eminence Grise]

Not sure if you're joking - whether you are or not, that's exactly what I meant when I wrote there was more intolerance than before, and rules would be helpful. I'm not at a loss: my family, friends and colleagues get the brunt of my puns instead, and I get real-time reactions.

[John83]

I think John83 deciding to use the phrases twits & to cop on above betrays a mindset which is at best unhelpful here. There's hardly anyone left John, maybe not look down your nose so obviously at those who are still here & looking to try to save the thing ?
I get that. You might notice I also mentioned that I've been that idiot at times online. People get heated talking about some things. Sometimes any of us snaps off an angry response, and three pages of vitriol later a mod has to intervene and immediately starts getting abuse via pm. It's like getting angry at a referee when you did actually stamp on the guy. In that moment, you or I or whoever has lost the rag is being a twit and should cop on. We're all human. I don't hold any grudges, however petty some of the messages get.

The puns stuff and the 24 hours to produce a link stuff generally seemed a little harsh to me, though I haven't seen much of it recently. (I am biased though. I love a good pun. Or a bad pun. Maybe especially a bad pun.) In any case, I don't think the puns thing was ever really acted on as he relented and basically asked people not to overdo it. Since tets isn't here to say his piece it's maybe something to discuss again another time.

[Acornvilla]

Do you still need a fancy private email to sign up these days?

[pineapple stu]

Do you still need a fancy private email to sign up these days?
You do I think. Maybe that could be looked at - I'd imagine it's a barrier to joining, and it may be a reason posters are lost too. Look at Drummerboy in the forum here who hasn't access to the email any more and can't log in now (without setting up a second account)

I think the main point is on internet forums in general - they're definitely yesterday's toys, yet it's true people looking to get away from Twitter gives scope for them, and there's still active forums about the internet (maybe smaller than they used to be though?). Also agree Ireland being crap doesn't help. Those are external factors we can't do much about I think.

I think looking at the suggestions so far, a forum re-org seems a quick win. Unlikely to be game-changing, but not a reason not to do it. Maybe a suggestion -

Premier & First Divisions [to incorporate Underage Leagues]
(Sub-forum Predictions League)
Ireland
(Sub-forum Archived Match Threads)
Junior League
Other football [this to incorporate the current Irish League, Other Countries, World Cup, Football History, Women's Football, World League Football]
Off topic [this to incorporate Current Affairs and Other Sports]
Football Feeds
Support
Clubs (the existing archive of the old club forums)

That said - the Euro 2024 thread in World League Football got very little traction, maybe because it was missed in an unusual forum. Would the reorg above (so now there's only five main forums, which are the first-listed) really help? And maybe it would. But that's a question for posters who don't post in other forums I guess?

I think the moderation is mostly fine, but I think there's a difference between "Can we move on from the 'Is Sagnol racist or not' discussion" and "Don't discuss Sagnol". I think SkStu (?) made the point that two of the three binned posts from that thread were perfectly reasonable and I think it's a good example of discussion being shut down. People naturally get a bit annoyed about that, and sometimes people get a bit precious about being the subject of mod action too. There's definitely place for "Can we move on from the 'Is Sagnol racist or not' discussion" or the robbing players off the NI debate - stuff that had been done and was just clogging up the thread by going over well-trodden ground. And maybe it could even be split out to its own thread and be left to thrive/die/be ignored there away from the main thread.

Apart from that, the eonly real other suggestion seems to be some sort of social media presence. Is this something Adam would be ok with? (It's his forum after all!) Is it something someone would be ok taking on? What would even go on it? Is it just two posts a week saying "Loi week 22 fixtures are this weekend - discuss here!" or "Adam Idah linked with Celtic - discuss here!"?

[SkStu]

Premier & First Divisions [to incorporate Underage Leagues]
(Sub-forum Predictions League)
Ireland
(Sub-forum Archived Match Threads)
Junior League
Other football [this to incorporate the current Irish League, Other Countries, World Cup, Football History, Women's Football, World League Football]
Off topic [this to incorporate Current Affairs and Other Sports]
Football Feeds
Support
Clubs (the existing archive of the old club forums)

Apart from moving Football Feeds below Support (really minor preference), i'd agree.


Apart from that, the eonly real other suggestion seems to be some sort of social media presence. Is this something Adam would be ok with? (It's his forum after all!) Is it something someone would be ok taking on? What would even go on it? Is it just two posts a week saying "Loi week 22 fixtures are this weekend - discuss here!" or "Adam Idah linked with Celtic - discuss here!"?

I think exploring social media is a good idea too. I wonder if you could leverage Tets' twitter account for occasional pushes to his following...or some of the other characters that have a following (Kenny's Skids for example)... I deleted twitter a couple years ago but one or two accounts would have good reach and you might get some interested parties.

I like the idea of relaxing the requirement for a paid/private email account if it doesnt increase the security risk or doesnt result in significant additional admin time. If you are going to explore a push via SM, you'd want to make it as easy as possible when someone dares to click thru and wants to start punning quickly...

I'm happy to take on any role that might help out FWIW... I dont know how much time I have but i spend enough time on here anyway, how much more could it be? :)

[CraftyToePoke]

I get that. You might notice I also mentioned that I've been that idiot at times online. People get heated talking about some things. Sometimes any of us snaps off an angry response, and three pages of vitriol later a mod has to intervene and immediately starts getting abuse via pm. It's like getting angry at a referee when you did actually stamp on the guy. In that moment, you or I or whoever has lost the rag is being a twit and should cop on. We're all human. I don't hold any grudges, however petty some of the messages get.

The puns stuff and the 24 hours to produce a link stuff generally seemed a little harsh to me, though I haven't seen much of it recently. (I am biased though. I love a good pun. Or a bad pun. Maybe especially a bad pun.) In any case, I don't think the puns thing was ever really acted on as he relented and basically asked people not to overdo it. Since tets isn't here to say his piece it's maybe something to discuss again another time.

Your attitude was clear. As it is again in your follow up & its part of this problem.

I sent you a PM for an infraction over saying we could hire Ron Atkinson, which was clearly a joke to cool the temperature after a pretty divisive race related free for all. I merely stated it was clearly a joke. So I want to make clear the abuse via PM you're crying about wasn't from me.

That said I did see some PM interactions you had with another poster and you gave as good as you got and were happy to. Your condescending tone was not nice at all. That poster, if you notice hasn't been posting recently having been on here daily for years. Well played, great stuff. Another one down.

Everyone else is looking to improve this.
There's broad concensus the modding is out of date / part of the decline, yet you're just defensive & looking to point fingers at individuals. The overall problem remains & again there's mod micro focus in the wrong direction.

Didn't Tets make himself unavailable during pungate also ?
Happy coincidence.

I'd second SKStu for a Twitter feed.
The email point is interesting, I come across youngsters in my job who only communicate on socials & Facebook is something their parents have, no longer cool.
& fu ck it let's get a tiktok while we're at it. Do a few slut drops.

We don't need or want the masses & there is ample talent on here to make it interesting & grow, but collaboration will unlock that.

@dahmasta; is there budget for a short targeted socials advertising blast into relevant socials pages ?
Eireguide & that type, we all know the ones. I'll bet there are lads on those, putting up with them who do not know about this place & would favour it.

[John83]

I sent you a PM for an infraction over saying we could hire Ron Atkinson, which was clearly a joke to cool the temperature after a pretty divisive race related free for all. I merely stated it was clearly a joke. So I want to make clear the abuse via PM you're crying about wasn't from me.
You did send such a messsage; I wasn't talking about it and I agree it was harmless. I take it on good faith that you believe you made a joke, but you wrote "Tough news to take for all the racists on here", which got you reported by two different forum members because it's blatent trolling. And given there were already numerous requests to drop the topic from the mods, you are in fact the problem here.


That said I did see some PM interactions you had with another poster and you gave as good as you got and were happy to. Your condescending tone was not nice at all. That poster, if you notice hasn't been posting recently having been on here daily for years. Well played, great stuff. Another one down.
I did. If he'd like me to post the exchange, he can request it. I didn't start the exchange, and in spite of repeated invitations to ban him and the tone from his very first message - "bitch move" and "your little buddy" for example - I did nothing but move three off-topic messages to the bin. Including one from the poster he alleged I was sticking up for. I've seen this pattern online for years. Do people like him go up to a bouncer, call him a bitch, invite him to throw him out, and then insist they're just here to dance and then complain to management that the bouncer told him to **** off?


There's broad concensus the modding is out of date / part of the decline, yet you're just defensive & looking to point fingers at individuals.
There are inevitably some missteps, but I don't know that there is a consensus. The posters reporting your posts certainly thought something should be done, for example.


Didn't Tets make himself unavailable during pungate also ?
Happy coincidence.
He indicated he'd be away weeks ago. But sure, keep assuming the worst of him.

[osarusan]

(Kenny's Skids for example)
:sick:

[SkStu]

:sick:

hehe :D

[Acornvilla]

We've got a new manager now anyway, your work here is done lads :D

[pineapple stu]

Just need a bad result now so the bandwagon to sack him starts up again :p

[Acornvilla]

FWIW, I'm too dumb to have any great input but I agree with suggestions re reorganizing the forum a bit, consolidating to make it seem both less confusing and seem more active at once. In time if it feels like more sections are needed again, it could be looked at, before this thread was there a suggestion box/discussion area for people's ideas?

That and probably relaxing how easy it is to sign up, on top of even a very light social media presence could do a lot.

I assume you have very good reasons for rules re the sign up email. I myself read this forum for years and only signed up when I could use a college email. I now have my own private email because I use one for work, but otherwise I'd have had no way to join up. I think there was a system where you could refer a friend, I got outspoken in the door once upon a time when he was a youngfella who didn't have a private email that way, but that's all very convoluted and is a massive barrier to entry for your regular person who just wants to shout their football opinions at someone.

I have no input re moderating really, I've only recently started reading and contributing again. There are a few very salty posters here these days thou, the vibe can be a bit more sharp than it needs to be, but that's up to individual posters and their need to win a conversation, rather than the goal of having a conversation. How I deal with that personally is to just not reply to them and let them think they've won, because one day I will die and that is not how I want to spend the time I have on this earth.

I understand it is a hellish job, I'd personally never want the responsibility of moderating, no matter how clear rules are, words are always open to interpretation, and someone will always be upset, I think generally it's good to let conversation happen, and unless someone is being a *****, or relentlessly repeating a point that is getting a conversation nowhere to let things go. Stuff can meander off topic a bit, usually news breaks and threads will right themselves.

Ps. I think your swear filter/swearing rules are probably a good thing, I don't know how tightly it is inforced, or do people get in trouble for writing stuff that becomes ****, I swear a lot, I try not to swear at people as individuals thou :D

[dahamsta]

Keep it coming folks, this is good. The general discussion is very helpful, I could use this to come up with some proposals we could try to come up with a consensus on, and then starting doing stuff gradually, starting with a reorg I guess.

A couple of comments:

- I accept that some mods get a bit carried away, and that should be addresses. Just bear in mind that one in particular isn't here to defend himself at the moment. I do agree that puns shouldn't be a major problem, I didn't know that was a thing. I guess the problem may have been that puns can lead to wums?

- The email block is there for a genuine reason, if I deleted all the blocked domains the place would be absolutely inundated with spam. I actually have a policy of letting people in if they ask, I set them up with a temp email at my own domain and then update to their own email account when they've verified, but I'll have a look at the list to see if anything can be removed. To be clear though, it's not snobbishness, it's pure spam reduction.

[John83]

- I accept that some mods get a bit carried away, and that should be addresses. Just bear in mind that one in particular isn't here to defend himself at the moment. I do agree that puns shouldn't be a major problem, I didn't know that was a thing. I guess the problem may have been that puns can lead to wums?
This was quite a while back. I think a thread was nearly wall to wall puns on a player's name (Parrott, Scales, Cannon, someone like that?) for about two pages and tets lost his patience with it. He laid out a very hard line on it and relented after a bit of uproar. It mostly comes up in mild jokes at his expense these days. Someone correct me if I have any of that wrong.

[Acornvilla]

- The email block is there for a genuine reason, if I deleted all the blocked domains the place would be absolutely inundated with spam. I actually have a policy of letting people in if they ask, I set them up with a temp email at my own domain and then update to their own email account when they've verified, but I'll have a look at the list to see if anything can be removed. To be clear though, it's not snobbishness, it's pure spam reduction.


That's all fair, would there be a way to say, when someone tries and fails to sign up because they don't have the email required, that they are given a contact form to request access? How to let people know there is an easy way to join, without the email, but that won't promote spam is the secret sauce.

[pineapple stu]

That's all fair, would there be a way to say, when someone tries and fails to sign up because they don't have the email required, that they are given a contact form to request access? How to let people know there is an easy way to join, without the email, but that won't promote spam is the secret sauce.
Yeah - maybe even a note when you try sign up to that extent would be useful. (I've no idea if there is such a note to be honest!)


Ps. I think your swear filter/swearing rules are probably a good thing, I don't know how tightly it is inforced, or do people get in trouble for writing stuff that becomes ****, I swear a lot, I try not to swear at people as individuals thou :D
Back in the day it was needed because people were new to the internet and would quite happily tell each other to **** off you **** and stuff like that. It could easily get quite heated.

Nowadays we're all far more relaxed (well, most of us!) so casual swearing is in general tolerated, but telling someone to **** off still isn't. The swear filter is no harm to remind people of that I guess.

[John83]

Ps. I think your swear filter/swearing rules are probably a good thing, I don't know how tightly it is inforced, or do people get in trouble for writing stuff that becomes ****, I swear a lot, I try not to swear at people as individuals thou :D
I don't think I've seen any enforcement beyond the automated filter and am fine with that. It's a football forum. You'll hear worse in songs and yells at games.

[CraftyToePoke]

do agree that puns shouldn't be a major problem, I didn't know that was a thing. I guess the problem may have been that puns can lead to wums

Pungate had its own thread in Support here. Top of page two in this section, its still there. You had to rule on it after a mini uprising basically & it was for no other reason than the mod in question did not like them & felt in a position where his personal preference was how the forum would run. He then avoided the conversation for days when that didn't go well.

I'd ask anyone interested to scan page one of that thread & how tetsujin1979 spoke to posters & the attitude he adopted to the situation. It wasn't good.

That high handed mod carry on is deeply damaging.
It's not the sole issue but it will hamper any efforts to reinvigorate & whether he's here or not today, that remains the case.

[SkStu]

Keep it coming folks, this is good. The general discussion is very helpful, I could use this to come up with some proposals we could try to come up with a consensus on, and then starting doing stuff gradually, starting with a reorg I guess.

A couple of comments:

- I accept that some mods get a bit carried away, and that should be addresses. Just bear in mind that one in particular isn't here to defend himself at the moment. I do agree that puns shouldn't be a major problem, I didn't know that was a thing. I guess the problem may have been that puns can lead to wums?

- The email block is there for a genuine reason, if I deleted all the blocked domains the place would be absolutely inundated with spam. I actually have a policy of letting people in if they ask, I set them up with a temp email at my own domain and then update to their own email account when they've verified, but I'll have a look at the list to see if anything can be removed. To be clear though, it's not snobbishness, it's pure spam reduction.

In addition to Acornvillas viable idea to enhance the application form to include an area to add a typed request that has to include certain details, I’d be happy to review applications and be a spamhunter if it helps take the pressure off the limited few. I think the application process is important as it prevented me becoming registered for I’d say 2-3 years before I could get the right type of email address.

I also think a SM presence and a promo/push from other accounts will be important to get numbers up.

Not to pile onto my original posts but I went online yesterday about an hour or two after the new manager had been announced - YBIG had 250ish new posts; Foot had 46. Quality no better or worse; quantity massively different.

[CraftyToePoke]

@John83

Feel like this has veered towards you feeling attacked by me which wasn't my outset intention, it was more to highlight the possibility this approach & tone if applied as a stock response, does have the potential to make the place unattractive, as one aspect of a layered issue. You've focused on the individual exchanges rather than the overall. The tone remains and bizarre bouncer comparison tells its own story.

I realise I can split the room in a debate also


We've just appointed a new MNT manager and it hardly registered on here.

There's no value to what needs to be achieved by us continuing so I'm parking it.


............

To me its two fold, raise awareness of footdot to the correct demographic and throw a few quid at that. Although once a market leading brand, footdot has slipped from view sadly. If it works, repeat that in six months or a year.

Then let it flow more, without becoming a nonsense, that sweet spot where topics can drift temporarily if its interesting well written content. Be a bit more craic I guess.

Was at my younger brothers wedding last year, several of his boyos are ST holders and did not know of the forum. People not born or recently born in the heyday here are now out in the world as young adults, you have to compete, there has never been more online options, they aren't going to come looking for the place.

I spend a lot of time WFH online. If I can help the offer is there.

Also, once streamlined, can all lapsed members be emailed on their registration email with an invitation to take a look, might get a few legends back.

[BonnieShels]

Earlier this week I said to myself that I must pop onto Foot.ie sometime this week given it's Shels' first European game in 18 years. With that and Heimir's appt announcement yesterday I felt today was as good a time as any to pop on.

Seeing this thread at the top of the page when I logged on, is something else I must say. The serendipity of it all!

Thanks for the shout-out PStu and good point on my return a while ago. I can't actually remember what prompted either my return or why I didn't stick it out. (I must check my post history)

To add to the posts above, I was an hourly user of this site at its peak and indeed, at my peak.

I loved it. But there was a perceptible change in mood and tone and coupled with life getting busier and the forum coding changing, and making it more difficult to navigate and use the site on a phone, I fell out of the habit. And it's all about habit.

In the intervening years I had found myself on boards again, and up until they relaunched and crapped the bed, it was grand. But once they went down on relaunch that habit died too.

Recently I've been on Reddit, and its funny to see a couple of posters from here pop up there periodically.

Anyway, from my pov, it's always about habit and if I get out of the habit, that's the end of it.

One of the best things about this place was its more adult tone and the lack of keyboard-warrioring. Like CTP above, I've come to realise that what I liked before on the internet is what is still like.

Getting a permaban from r/ukpolitics for criticising the justification of State sponsored killing of Irish citizens in the North, was just somewhat of a wake-up call as to what discussion boards at their peak are like.

Anyway, I digress.

I like a lot of the suggestions above and would agree that some social media presence wouldn't be a bad thing, even if it's just a bot reposting popular thread periodically.

Giving the appearance of being busy would definitely help the place.

Anyway good to see you lot.

As an aside I think my biggest regret in all that time was missing out on the chance to lord it over Kingdom during the 6-in-a-row period. Dang.

[Razors left peg]

The only real input I'd have to this that mods are often too quick to shut down a conversation it it veers off topic. There are times there is a conversation going and all of a sudden posts are moved to a different thread and it kills the engagement. So what if there's 10 pages of conversation about something not particularly related to a certain thread, if people are engaged it keeps them coming back to the conversation. If it gets moved that often shuts down all chat

[dahamsta]

Just a note to add that Gmail had already been removed from the registration blocklist, which was the major problem in the past. I removed it a good while back, I think a couple of years. The vast majority of the remaining blocks are single-use email accounts, which will remain blocked in perpetuity, because they're used almost exclusively by trolls and spammers. The remainder are explict blocks of trolls and spammers.

I'm going to put this in an announcement or notice to draw the attention of the rest of the forum, and let it run until the end of August. Then I'll summarise the changes that need to happen and I'll reorganise the forums since that seems a cert. In the meantime I'm going to work on finding someone to migrate the forum to another platform like Vanilla, because vB is very outdated and it can't possibly be secure at this point.

[osarusan]

Anything but Vanilla...look what it did to Boards...

[John83]

I don't think that was the platform so much as the very poorly handled switchover. They had broken features for quite a while afterwards and it ****ed off half their userbase.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I get the feeling they tried to make the new site look and feel just like old boards, which Vanilla couldn't really do. So they've made a right hames of it - for moderators too I believe.

I think Digital Spy uses Vanilla so it's not completely inept as a platform. Definitely worth learning from the boards errors though! There's still functionality that just doesn't work properly

Is phpBB the same thing as vBulletin? I see gubu.ie uses it and the layout is similar to here, which gives a nice feel

Didn't realise Gmail was unblacklisted - that's good

Thanks Adam!

[ger121]

https://youtu.be/oKjY87UXKWw?si=-yr1yRagYh8OK0Ha


There is a big difference alright (Eirambler's suggestion aside, which may or mayn't be a factor).

I think though when the YBIG fanzine moved across (see here (https://foot.ie/threads/284396-Archiving-this-forum)), the fanzine went towards putting money into the atmosphere at games. Even now I think they co-ordinate the singing section at home games, so that naturally gives them a base to build on that we don't have here. They also have a social media presence which foot doesn't have (twitter, etc) - I don't know if that helps any, but it has 36k followers so it can hardly hurt. And if it does, is it worth setting up a foot.ie twitter account to highlight new threads that are being discussed? And who'd run it if so? (I know Adam has said before he was happy to keep away from the likes of twitter because, well, just have a read of twitter...)

All we have is the general lack of the numptiness that's so often seen there!

(And this is probably something that should be split out into a different thread of course)

The forum does need a SM platform I think. I’m a fiend for it and like many it is now how they primarily source their LOI content and groups. I do think PS’ idea of a Foot.ie a Twitter account is a very good idea. Few people on here as admin’s maybe sharing links to threads or generating discussion on Twitter but then linking it back into the forum.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think any redesign has to consider YBIG looks like a child with crayons made it & its winning, and by comparison its rubbish, in content too. You can post one emoji there FFS.

SM footprint, maybe a Reddit presence. Something shareable onto the too numerous content overlapping FB pages. Awareness drive.

[Acornvilla]

Sharing stuff in to the facebook groups is a good shout. Facebook is kind of dead and a weird hell full of everyone's racist relatives, but groups themselves seem to be thriving. The LOI ones, do definitely seem to basically all parrot one another, and every discussion just turns in to lads calling the league ****e and arguing over which council paid for whose stadium. Not the most constructive stuff, but you would definitely get eyeballs.

[nigel-harps1954]

I wouldn't alter the design of the forum. For me, it's fairly clear and easily managed, which can't be said for many other forums.

A Twitter feed like Tets might help get fresh faces in, but I'd be wary of an influx of online trolls too. There's still a fairly healthy community here, and largely a respectful community, despite disagreements fairly regularly.

I don't think there's an awful lot wrong, and over 20 years of posting and still going strong is a testament to that.

A rejig of existing forums could be done, not entirely sure what way I'd arrange them but there are a few semi-dead forums on here.

Bring back post of the month too.

[Razors left peg]

Bring back post of the month too.

The post of the month was good craic.

I really think the biggest impediment to engagement on the forum is the football team itself. Especially in the last year with the depressive manager hunt and lack of games, theres been very little to talk about. If individual players are doing well at their clubs and the team itself is doing well people will naturally want to talk about more. Im posting less myself these days simply because the overall tone is so negative about everything it seems, but thats a result of the last year being so crap.

Ive said previously that I think discussions are shut down too quickly if they arent exactly on the topic of the thread. I dont see the point of that, if lads are talking let them talk unless it becomes abusive. Deleting posts because they are not in line with how a particular mod thinks is silly.

A social media presence would certainly help generate more traffic, but you also dont want it to go too far down the road of YBIG where there are so many posters who genuinely havent a clue about football.... theres a 12 page thread on there with lads arguing that the players not singing the anthem before the game affects how they play ffs!

If the forum got a new shiney coat of paint it wouldnt be a bad thing, but I wouldnt mess with the format too much. Even when I go in on my phone I have to switch to the desktop version rather than use the mobile one, because its what I know and like.