With FAI or LoI to go it alone again?

[Nesta99]

https://x.com/McDonnellDan/status/1780700484489392607

Was gonna throw up a poll but cant see the function(?). So LoI decided to move to be administered by the FAI in some year I cant remember, late 90s early 2000s. Iirc it was felt that the league couldnt progress while running itself due to self interest. The league could also end up bankrupt but under direct admin of the FAI well the league didnt have to be self financing and the FAI would provide some financial security....in theory. At least thats how i remember the basics of it.

Soooo would people prefer going it alone again or continue with participation with the FAI? Circumstances have changed where the league now has arguably more credibility, goodwill, greater potential for real development and change etc. Or should we hedge bets with a new entity running the league with joint responsibility with Abbotstown even if currently that holds the league back, associating with the problem child of Irish sport?

On a completely different issue, that old 'Big Club' can be put to be with Bohs being members of the small club UEC while the rest mix it with the big clubs in the ECA....jesting aside, it is typical of Lambo to just be contrary, be different even if it might make sense. As per the Cork example, its good that clubs can have 'legacy' membership of the ECA if outside a top tier!

[Another Bohemia]

My big thing is that whether with the FAI or as it's own entity clubs should be working together to improve the league get sponsorship for the league, tv deals etc. That should be for both leagues too. Just by excluding the first division clubs I'm immediately suspect of the ECA and any club near the relegation zone should also be wary. If the league goes the way of individual TV deals per club you could very easily see a lot of money put into the "Large" clubs coffers that just doesn't get to non smaller clubs. or you could have a situation with clubs undercutting each other just so they have more games broadcast to get extra exposure but ultimately hurting the total value of the league and growth of other clubs. I think it has to be a centralised deal to ensure that football in the country is sustainable for all clubs and not just the biggest clubs. Ironically in that world Bohs would probably do quite well as while the football side of things isn't 100% at the minute they would be one of the more recognisable names when it comes to LOI clubs and can make the case that the regularly sell out the ground so have a ready made audience waiting to watch.

[Nesta99]

Agree with what you say. But the real world of LoI, and with precedent, is that clubs find it very hard to to act as a collective. In the past every decision was made with self interest behind it rather than the bigger picture and greater good, hence why the FAI took over control as the league administering itself was just easting itself. Have we moved beyond that? Why cant clubs be members of both the ECA and UEC if they fit the profile of both, work on shared inerests when they overlap or are both of these organisations also run by ego. Trade Unions can have rivalry but would negotiate a national pay deal together so its possible to do.

What sort of TV deal could be brokered? The national broadcaster is broke, VM knows there is no competition for rights. Have subscription companies ever had a proposal put to them and what is the product worth. Live games are help build maybe but as daft as it may sound I think we need a gimmicky Drive to Survive type show, grittier than the football equivalents, the league is mad enough for it to be intriguing irrespective of the football....

[Another Bohemia]

Agreed, clubs will try to look after themselves first and I suppose the split in which club union they join shows that there are still going to be differing opinions along the way. I would hope that UEC becomes the preferred option for Irish clubs because it's not solely for teams in the top division of their country but for all clubs. But based on my own experience changing energy and insurance providers if it's too difficult and there's no immediate benefit it will probably stay as is.

Regardless of that I think the clubs of both divisions need to come together and decide on a roadmap for league growth and try to manage this themselves from the bottom up so the FAI, the new league entity whatever it may be has an idea of what is wanted and what is needed from a club perspective.

[EatYerGreens]

The Number 1 priority for club football in Ireland now and for the foreseeable future is stadia development. The majority of clubs in the league either currently have capacity issues, or are likely to have them in the coming years if the league continues to grow (which is very likely, even just due to population growth). So the question for me is not so much which group is best placed to administrate the league, but which is best placed to make the case for significant capital funding to government, councils etc. And despite its very many faults, I suspect the answer to that is the FAI.

The FAI is about to start the search for a new CEO. The reps/cliubs of LOI football should sit down with whoever gets appointed as a priority and push for the FAI to lead on capital funding and other key issues. They should use the idea of breaking away themselves as a threat - i.e. that if the FAI doesn't step up and do its job to support Irish club football properly, then they'll have to do it themselves. When the FAI took over the league X years ago, its was largely a welcome move. And it was as much about the FAI doing the league a favour. But circumstances have changed, and I believe will continue to do so. Our league is a much stronger and better product, whilst the FAI's star has fallen significanntly at the same time. The balance of power and influence has shifted. I think it would further diminish the FAI if they were stripped of responsibility for running senior club football in Ireland.

In summary, I'm not in favour of the league trying to run itself again. But I am in favour of the threat of that being used to force the new leadership of the FAI to step up and do their job properly. So I hope the clubs will continue talking about breaking away - particularly around the time a new CEO gets appointed.

[EalingGreen]

"The ECA team are also due to meet with Northern Irish league representatives during their visit."

Contrary to the experience of the LOI, the IL actually went in the opposite direction a few years back, i.e. becoming self-governing/autonomous from the IFA. On the whole they seem to be reasonably happy with this, with no talk of returning to the IFA fold that I can see and tbf, the IFA don't appear too bothered either, at least on the surface.

Overall, the IL has been doing quite well in recent years, though how much of that is down to this development I couldn't say. As regards this business of LOI clubs following their own agenda at the expense of unity etc, I suspect that the IL (or Northern Ireland Football League to be precise) has benefited from having a strong CEO in Gerard Lawlor (ex-Cliftonville).

Lawlor is very much a "marmite" character, who always talks big, often without having the wherewithal to back it up. But I suppose he is quite good at generating publicity, interest and headlines for the NIFL and one way or another, the clubs do seem to co-operate, even despite their having very different agendas (f-t vs p-t, European revenues, summer/winter season, all-Ireland ambitions, Belfast vs the rest etc)

[sbgawa]

The Number 1 priority for club football in Ireland now and for the foreseeable future is stadia development. The majority of clubs in the league either currently have capacity issues, or are likely to have them in the coming years if the league continues to grow (which is very likely, even just due to population growth). So the question for me is not so much which group is best placed to administrate the league, but which is best placed to make the case for significant capital funding to government, councils etc. And despite its very many faults, I suspect the answer to that is the FAI.

The FAI is about to start the search for a new CEO. The reps/cliubs of LOI football should sit down with whoever gets appointed as a priority and push for the FAI to lead on capital funding and other key issues. They should use the idea of breaking away themselves as a threat - i.e. that if the FAI doesn't step up and do its job to support Irish club football properly, then they'll have to do it themselves. When the FAI took over the league X years ago, its was largely a welcome move. And it was as much about the FAI doing the league a favour. But circumstances have changed, and I believe will continue to do so. Our league is a much stronger and better product, whilst the FAI's star has fallen significanntly at the same time. The balance of power and influence has shifted. I think it would further diminish the FAI if they were stripped of responsibility for running senior club football in Ireland.

In summary, I'm not in favour of the league trying to run itself again. But I am in favour of the threat of that being used to force the new leadership of the FAI to step up and do their job properly. So I hope the clubs will continue talking about breaking away - particularly around the time a new CEO gets appointed.

Fundementally this is my view, Governments like dealing with semi-state companies or Associations like the FAI, IRFU. GAA etc. Dealing with or more importantly doling out Public money to a new organisation will be more difficult for them.
There is a small bit of momentumn behind the calls for proper funding for Academies and improved facilities and i would be loath to change now for fear of stalling.
A Club official at Rovers made me burst out laughing one time when i asked him about clubs co operating on big issues "FFS we are in a league where the teams are still robbing each others balls". to be fair it was a few years ago but i dont think it has changed much

[EalingGreen]

A Club official at Rovers made me burst out laughing one time when i asked him about clubs co operating on big issues "FFS we are in a league where the teams are still robbing each others balls".Are you sure he didn't say "rubbing"?

OK, maybe not. :D

[nigel-harps1954]

I have zero faith in the clubs running the league and much less in an organisation that excludes the majority of clubs in the league.

[sbgawa]

I have zero faith in the clubs running the league and much less in an organisation that excludes the majority of clubs in the league.


To be fair Nigel the ECA limiting it to Premier division clubs is reasonable otherwise where do they stop ? League 2 in England , NAtional League south, there would be thousends of clubs accross Europe
I think the ECA have been relativly good for the lower leagues , Conference league as well as increased Euro payments against a backround of the bigest clubs wanting to break away and take all the money with them.


Lambo suits the UEC down to the ground it couldnt be more bohs, Sit on the outside shouting about fairness for the common man to the people with the money rather than sit inside and try to make things happen.

[placid casual]

Lambo suits the UEC down to the ground it couldnt be more bohs, Sit on the outside shouting about fairness for the common man to the people with the money rather than sit inside and try to make things happen.

100%.
What culchies refer to as a "hurler on the ditch" I believe.

[Mr A]

The Number 1 priority for club football in Ireland now and for the foreseeable future is stadia development. The majority of clubs in the league either currently have capacity issues, or are likely to have them in the coming years if the league continues to grow (which is very likely, even just due to population growth). So the question for me is not so much which group is best placed to administrate the league, but which is best placed to make the case for significant capital funding to government, councils etc. And despite its very many faults, I suspect the answer to that is the FAI.

The FAI is about to start the search for a new CEO. The reps/cliubs of LOI football should sit down with whoever gets appointed as a priority and push for the FAI to lead on capital funding and other key issues. They should use the idea of breaking away themselves as a threat - i.e. that if the FAI doesn't step up and do its job to support Irish club football properly, then they'll have to do it themselves. When the FAI took over the league X years ago, its was largely a welcome move. And it was as much about the FAI doing the league a favour. But circumstances have changed, and I believe will continue to do so. Our league is a much stronger and better product, whilst the FAI's star has fallen significanntly at the same time. The balance of power and influence has shifted. I think it would further diminish the FAI if they were stripped of responsibility for running senior club football in Ireland.

In summary, I'm not in favour of the league trying to run itself again. But I am in favour of the threat of that being used to force the new leadership of the FAI to step up and do their job properly. So I hope the clubs will continue talking about breaking away - particularly around the time a new CEO gets appointed.

Great post. Hard to see a major TV deal happening when many grounds can't really host broadcasts.

The FAI Infrastructure plan is actually pretty good. That's why I and many others were so angry that the Dail appearances ended up dominated by that nonsense over CEO pay and also emails that were completely redacted etc. Just not good enough.

But put someone better in charge who makes the case and steers clear of daft controversy and there is a very compelling story to tell. And the allocation of all betting tax to horse and dogs is just so obviously ludicrous and wrong. I have been on plenty of club meetings, and I usually enjoy them, but I would not be in a rush to put the clubs back in charge, far from it.

[Knocklyonhoop]

100%.
What culchies refer to as a "hurler on the ditch" I believe.

and also benefit from any deal the ECA look to put in place!

[Another Bohemia]

To be fair Nigel the ECA limiting it to Premier division clubs is reasonable otherwise where do they stop ? League 2 in England , NAtional League south, there would be thousends of clubs accross Europe
I think the ECA have been relativly good for the lower leagues , Conference league as well as increased Euro payments against a backround of the bigest clubs wanting to break away and take all the money with them.


Lambo suits the UEC down to the ground it couldnt be more bohs, Sit on the outside shouting about fairness for the common man to the people with the money rather than sit inside and try to make things happen.

Sure outside of Ireland it may make sense. Specifically England but even then teams when managed correctly can quickly move up the pyramid see Luton previously and what Wrexham are trying to do currently. In England it's fairly straightforward limit it to league clubs and use the divisions that they already have within the ECA to segment it (Ireland are in group 4 I believe). But specifically looking at Ireland we have 20 clubs in 2 divisions. I see no reason all 20 couldn't be included other than the ECA ultimately not caring about anything other than top level football which should be a warning sign to LOI clubs.

[sbgawa]

Sure outside of Ireland it may make sense. Specifically England but even then teams when managed correctly can quickly move up the pyramid see Luton previously and what Wrexham are trying to do currently. In England it's fairly straightforward limit it to league clubs and use the divisions that they already have within the ECA to segment it (Ireland are in group 4 I believe). But specifically looking at Ireland we have 20 clubs in 2 divisions. I see no reason all 20 couldn't be included other than the ECA ultimately not caring about anything other than top level football which should be a warning sign to LOI clubs.

I know you Bohs lads are all about all are created equal and every man deserves an equal voice stuff but in fairness to the ECA if Cobh/Kerry are entitled to a position in the ECA and to pontificate on where European football is headed thats a recipe for an organisation that Crumlin United will want to be on when the 3rd tier starts and one that will be to big to function. I think the interest from the 1st division clubs is shown by to my knowledge they havent even signed up to Lambos People before profit organiastion. MAybe the prolitariat have more sense then you give them credit for

[Another Bohemia]

I know you Bohs lads are all about all are created equal and every man deserves an equal voice stuff but in fairness to the ECA if Cobh/Kerry are entitled to a position in the ECA and to pontificate on where European football is headed thats a recipe for an organisation that Crumlin United will want to be on when the 3rd tier starts and one that will be to big to function. I think the interest from the 1st division clubs is shown by to my knowledge they havent even signed up to Lambos People before profit organiastion. MAybe the prolitariat have more sense then you give them credit for

You realise this meeting was about the future of the League of Ireland, nothing about the future of European football? Why shouldn't Cobh & Kerry be involved in meetings like these? Bohs were invited in spite of not being members of the ECA so why not include other non members? Is it solely down to the fact that they are currently first division clubs? If that's the case the ECA are showing that they don't actually care about football beyond the top level. If that is the case I'd be wary of what their end goal is. If we want to grow professional football in Ireland you need to include clubs like Cobh and Kerry especially if you want to entice clubs to step up from the underage structures and bring senior teams into the league

[SkStu]

This UEC v ECA part of the discussion is all a bit Judean Peoples Front isn’t it?!

[holidaysong]

This UEC v ECA part of the discussion is all a bit Judean Peoples Front isn’t it?!

Splitters!

[Nesta99]

Sounds more like pro wrestling than pro football when put like that.

[EalingGreen]

On a completely different issue, that old 'Big Club' can be put to be with Bohs being members of the small club UEC while the rest mix it with the big clubs in the ECA....jesting aside, it is typical of Lambo to just be contrary, be different even if it might make sense. As per the Cork example, its good that clubs can have 'legacy' membership of the ECA if outside a top tier!In his weekly newsletter for the (UK) Independent, Miguel Delaney noted the following earlier today:

"Amid so much jostling between the big clubs, and three of the usual names preparing for the Champions League semi-final this week, there was one important announcement that went under the radar. The Union of European Clubs celebrated their first general assembly. It didn’t quite have the opulence of the European Club Association’s gatherings, but then the bigger group - chaired by Paris Saint-Germain’s Nasser Al Khelaifi - receive €15m funding from Uefa. That’s sort of the point. This is about representing all the clubs outside the elite, who do not feel they have a voice in the game’s decision-making. As many 18 English clubs were named in their statement: Burnley, Norwich City, AFC Wimbledon, Bristol Rovers, Cambridge United, Accrington Stanley, Doncaster Rovers, Grimsby Town, Leyton Orient, Lincoln City, Shrewsbury Town, Newport County, Swindon Town, Tranmere Rovers, Altrincham, Ebbsfleet United and Gateshead. An illustrative issue is that Uefa aren’t even supposed to engage with the group, due to a memorandum of understanding signed with the ECA. That only shows how important such a lobbying group is."

[sbgawa]

If i had to guess what all these clubs none of whom are within an Asses roar of participation in Europe had in common it would be owners or CEO's with Lambo being a great example who have an exagerated sense of their own importance.

[2 Year Contract]

Wasn’t sure which thread to put it in but seen as this one relates to league structure I thought I’d post it here.

There’s a new proposal to make it a requirement that Premier division clubs have at least 14 full time professionals in their squads next season, with the ultimate goal of that incrementally increasing to 20 players in the coming years. It should be doable for the current premier division clubs plus cork (as it’s already the case at all of them bar Drogs) but I can’t see this being popular with the first division clubs and it could potentially stop them getting promoted unless they take financial risks. Overall though it will undoubtedly improve the standard of the premier division over time, rather than having a whipping boy like a Longford 2021 or UCD 2023. Whether or not that’s fair on smaller FD clubs that don’t generate enough income via supporters or investors is another debate

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/exclusive-new-rule-proposed-could-33111574?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[pineapple stu]

PFA want more money for its members shocker!

I think it's an inherently stupid suggestion. If clubs can afford 14 full-time pros - great. It should be encouraged as a target.

But enforcing it leaves little room for manoeuvre if financial problems strike (in the LoI? Never!) and I think we've also seen that sometimes going full-time is to the detriment of a team. What we call full-time can be so marginal that you can weaken your squad by ditching part-time guys who don't want to take the risk/can't afford going full-time.)

Natural selection is the best way for this to happen I think. The full-time teams should in theory do better than the part-time teams and if the league profile keeps improving (by no means guaranteed - there's already suggestions in the attendances thread the post-covid boom may have peaked) then you'll get there naturally. But forcing it is silly.

[Acornvilla]

In the event of Cork up/Drogheda down, the season after that I'm not sure anyone but Drogheda could get promoted again, maybe Finn Harps at a push get the crowds? I understand the proposal in theory but I'm not sure we're there yet if we want a functional pyramid.

[2 Year Contract]

To add context, it would work out at around 6k a week for clubs, for arguement sake say around 6.5k when allowing for a few more part time players in the squad. I’m not saying that that would be affordable for a lot of the current FD clubs, but out of interest does anyone know roughly what those sort of clubs are spending per week on squad wages now? No doubt the increased attendances of being in the premier division would help with funds, but probably not enough to bridge the gap without outside funding into said club

[Nesta99]

PFA want more money for its members shocker!

I think it's an inherently stupid suggestion. If clubs can afford 14 full-time pros - great. It should be encouraged as a target.

But enforcing it leaves little room for manoeuvre if financial problems strike (in the LoI? Never!) and I think we've also seen that sometimes going full-time is to the detriment of a team. What we call full-time can be so marginal that you can weaken your squad by ditching part-time guys who don't want to take the risk/can't afford going full-time.)

Natural selection is the best way for this to happen I think. The full-time teams should in theory do better than the part-time teams and if the league profile keeps improving (by no means guaranteed - there's already suggestions in the attendances thread the post-covid boom may have peaked) then you'll get there naturally. But forcing it is silly.

Id love to be at a Licencing committee meeting where they reject a club budget that makes them fail to get a licence for not being allowed to pay for 14 ft players - damned if you do, damned if you do!

[Longfordian]

We've never had any actual full time players as far as I'm aware albeit we had a few over the years who were earning enough that they didn't feel the need to do anything else. I can't see a situation where we could fund 14 of them any time soon if ever. I do wonder how much longer we can keep funding a LOI team to be honest. A few generous individuals have kept us afloat over the years, in particular Jim Hanley our chairman, but that can't go on forever.

[nigel-harps1954]

To add context, it would work out at around 6k a week for clubs, for arguement sake say around 6.5k when allowing for a few more part time players in the squad. I’m not saying that that would be affordable for a lot of the current FD clubs, but out of interest does anyone know roughly what those sort of clubs are spending per week on squad wages now? No doubt the increased attendances of being in the premier division would help with funds, but probably not enough to bridge the gap without outside funding into said club

While 14 players would cost a minimum of €6k a week, you'd need at least another 6 or 8 players part-time, possibly earning about 250 a week. Plus all your staff costs and backroom team, some of which would obviously have to be full time too, and whatever few quid you'd have to pay youth players to be part of an extended squad. You wouldn't possibly be able to manage a full time squad for less than between €8-10k a week bare minimum.

There's loopholes in minimum wage though, if you're spending on accommodation or travel expenses, which can come out of the wage cost too.

I don't see it being feasible for more than one or two current First Division clubs. And all of this is before you go into the quality of player and the wages they'd demand, as not everyone will go full time in football for €430 a week.

[Martinho II]

Tbh with these proposals I can see the situation that the PT clubs like my club will be further cut adrift from the FT side. With the vastly reduced support base I can see us getting out of the loi and back to LSL as theres no future in it.

[EalingGreen]

Tbh with these proposals I can see the situation that the PT clubs like my club will be further cut adrift from the FT side. With the vastly reduced support base I can see us getting out of the loi and back to LSL as theres no future in it.This is interesting when read in conjunction with some recent comments in the Attendances thread, where posters discussed which of 10 or 12 teams was optimal for the Premier Division.

Clearly the professionalism we've seen emerge at a dozen(?) LOI clubs has brought a lot of benefits. But I wonder whether this has drawbacks, too in that even without compulsory f-t status as proposed by the PFAI (above), there is a danger that the chosen dozen become completely cut off from the rest of the LOI, who themselves may be cut-off from everyone else, in a process aided by the absence of a pyramid.

For a country with a wealthy population of 5m and a long footballing tradition should surely be able to support rather more than 17* Senior clubs, with half a dozen of those part-time? As the governing body, shouldn't the FAI/LOI be doing much more to spread the Senior game beyond the traditional centres and throughout the whole country?


* - Excludes UCD (outlier), DCFC (NI) and Kerry (not yet Established, even if early signs seem promising)

[Nesta99]

This is interesting when read in conjunction with some recent comments in the Attendances thread, where posters discussed which of 10 or 12 teams was optimal for the Premier Division.

Clearly the professionalism we've seen emerge at a dozen(?) LOI clubs has brought a lot of benefits. But I wonder whether this has drawbacks, too in that even without compulsory f-t status as proposed by the PFAI (above), there is a danger that the chosen dozen become completely cut off from the rest of the LOI, who themselves may be cut-off from everyone else, in a process aided by the absence of a pyramid.

For a country with a wealthy population of 5m and a long footballing tradition should surely be able to support rather more than 17* Senior clubs, with half a dozen of those part-time? As the governing body, shouldn't the FAI/LOI be doing much more to spread the Senior game beyond the traditional centres and throughout the whole country?


* - Excludes UCD (outlier), DCFC (NI) and Kerry (not yet Established, even if early signs seem promising)

It certainly is when its too much too soon. There are a very small number of clubs that have absolute financial security, wealthy owners basically (and UCD). All the rest, including Shamrock Rovers tbh still have question marks over profitability or accumulated debt. Not that I think Rovers would be at terminal risk, but could you be as confident about Dundalk, Sligo Rovers, Waterford, never mind Longford, Youths, et al? We should be able to support a more stable league in theory, by similar metrics you could think there are too many teams in I.L. to allow significant growth. Apart from a cluttered sporting industry, years of neglect means there is an awful lot needed to facilitate greater stability that then you look to increase the number of clubs, restructure a league, FT requirements above a certain level. For me talk about most other issues are premature - I do think the development of a full pyramid system should be started but again too much too soon could do a lot of damage if clubs drop out or theres lttle interest in joining up. Like in England youd nearly need the FAI to insist that every competative league, non recreational, in some way feeds in to the pyramid directly tying in grassroots. Maybe a sense of ownership in a national league system would increase further interest in the upper tiers adding to attendances and overall stability.....if we ever feed players directly to the national side on a regular basis, no tokenism, then whatever is being done is working.

[EalingGreen]

We should be able to support a more stable league in theoryUndoubtedly and not just more stable, but a lot bigger: x 2.5 the population of NI (plus Derry City), a wealthier one at that and none of the sectarian/political stuff which bedevils the IL.


... by similar metrics you could think there are too many teams in I.L. to allow significant growth.I'm sorry, but 24 Senior teams (plus 14 x Premier Intermediate) IS growth. While there have been nowhere near the same number of financial collapses with clubs going under etc as has been seen in the LOI.

Take Dungannon Swifts for example. Not one of the traditional, "founding" IL clubs, but formed in 1949 in a provincial town of 15k which also has a very strong rugby and GAA tradition. Entered the IL comparatively recently in 1997, since when they have always held their own. Very tidy wee ground which they own, live within their means. In conjunction with nearby Dungannon Youth, they have helped develop a number of decent players from the area, most notably Niall McGinn and Conor Bradley.

Under the old IL closed shop, clubs like Swifts (plus eg Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Loughgall etc) could simply never have emerged, while there must be a dozen or more Dungannons in ROI which are nowhere near LOI football.


I do think the development of a full pyramid system should be started but again too much too soon could do a lot of damage if clubs drop out or theres lttle interest in joining up.Interesting term "drop out". Does that imply the introduction of a third tier as the first step towards a pyramid? For if it does, it will fail just as surely as eg the 'A' League.

For the whole point about a pyramid, whether Egyptian or Football, is that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. That way you avoid clubs being parachuted in before they're ready and at too high a level etc, thereby risking dropping out completely.

Whereas if you build upwards, teams rise to find their natural level, so that even should they experience a bad couple of seasons, rather than falling off a cliff, they only need drop down a level until they stabilise and go again. Of course many teams will never be able to, or even want to, rise above eg a fourth or fifth tier, but instead be content to stay at their preferred level, whether Intermediate (semi-pro), or even Junior (Amateur). But even while they're doing so, they can still provide decent competition for other, more ambitious clubs who are on their way up.

All of which is before you address the "elephant in the room" i.e. the Summer vs Winter calendar.



I doLike in England youd nearly need the FAI to insist that every competative league, non recreational, in some way feeds in to the pyramid directly tying in grassroots. Maybe a sense of ownership in a national league system would increase further interest in the upper tiers adding to attendances and overall stability....if we ever feed players directly to the national side on a regular basis, no tokenism, then whatever is being done is working.Not just in England, but in nearly every other European country, including those of ROI's size and smaller.

While as regards your bold, there is, of course, another approach which might just be preferable for the FAI/LOI to exploit, and certainly easier: namely concentrate resources ruthlessly on the same core of a dozen or so established, f-t clubs, to provide them with the best facilities, coaches and Academies etc, so as to set up a production line of talent. This would be the same as eg the IRFU, who concentrate their resources heavily on the four inter-Pro teams, albeit to the detriment of the old, traditional club structure beneath. These last have to find their own level as Community clubs etc, which would likely be the outlet open to the remaining football clubs outside the 'chosen few' of the LOI.

[LTFC]

What do we reckon our clubs turnover a year? Anyone at 4mplus pa? How many between 3m and 4m, or 2m and 3m or 1m and 2m - I would guess Drogs, Sligo, Waterford, Dubdalk, maybe Galway are 1m to 2m. Bohs/Pats/Derry 2-3m, with maybe Rovers over the 3m.

Aside, all bar Cork in first are well below the 1m.

[Nesta99]

Undoubtedly and not just more stable, but a lot bigger: x 2.5 the population of NI (plus Derry City), a wealthier one at that and none of the sectarian/political stuff which bedevils the IL.

I'm sorry, but 24 Senior teams (plus 14 x Premier Intermediate) IS growth. While there have been nowhere near the same number of financial collapses with clubs going under etc as has been seen in the LOI.

Take Dungannon Swifts for example. Not one of the traditional, "founding" IL clubs, but formed in 1949 in a provincial town of 15k which also has a very strong rugby and GAA tradition. Entered the IL comparatively recently in 1997, since when they have always held their own. Very tidy wee ground which they own, live within their means. In conjunction with nearby Dungannon Youth, they have helped develop a number of decent players from the area, most notably Niall McGinn and Conor Bradley.

Under the old IL closed shop, clubs like Swifts (plus eg Ballinamallard, Warrenpoint and Loughgall etc) could simply never have emerged, while there must be a dozen or more Dungannons in ROI which are nowhere near LOI football.

Interesting term "drop out". Does that imply the introduction of a third tier as the first step towards a pyramid? For if it does, it will fail just as surely as eg the 'A' League.

For the whole point about a pyramid, whether Egyptian or Football, is that you build from the bottom up, not from the top down. That way you avoid clubs being parachuted in before they're ready and at too high a level etc, thereby risking dropping out completely.

Whereas if you build upwards, teams rise to find their natural level, so that even should they experience a bad couple of seasons, rather than falling off a cliff, they only need drop down a level until they stabilise and go again. Of course many teams will never be able to, or even want to, rise above eg a fourth or fifth tier, but instead be content to stay at their preferred level, whether Intermediate (semi-pro), or even Junior (Amateur). But even while they're doing so, they can still provide decent competition for other, more ambitious clubs who are on their way up.

All of which is before you address the "elephant in the room" i.e. the Summer vs Winter calendar.


Not just in England, but in nearly every other European country, including those of ROI's size and smaller.

While as regards your bold, there is, of course, another approach which might just be preferable for the FAI/LOI to exploit and certainly easier: namely concentrate resources ruthlessly on the same core of a dozen or so established, f-t clubs, to provide them with the best facilities, coaches and Academies etc, so as to set up a production line of talent. This would be the same as eg the IRFU, who concentrate their resources heavily on the four inter-Pro teams, albeit to the detriment of the old, traditional club structure beneath. These last have to find their own level as Community clubs etc, which would likely be the outlet open to the remaining football clubs outside the 'chosen few' of the LOI.

Apologies, on the 1st point of expansion, I was thinking more of growth in attendances - more clubs in a small country could in theory dilute attendance potential weakening things to some extent. I know its not necessarily evidence based, my experience in Essex eg is that people supported say Southend and also Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal and would attend both and not deride the lower tierd quality of football and facilities. My experience of Irish fans is to go to LoI and somehow expect Champions League standard of football. If you have the former in IL and someone could support their junior or intermediate club and have a top end club grand. If its an exclusive nature of supporter in IL then it is possible to have too many clubs. If I may liken it to gaelic football clubs just in Dundalk, there are so many (7 or 8) all encroaching on eachother catchement and all arguably weaker, less potential for growth in support and subsequent success etc. in comparison, Drogheda clubs, lesser in number, and some rural clubs in the county dominate a lot more because support, talent and all that goes with are concentrated in those areas with less clubs and so ultimately are stronger. But more clubs does mean greater participation too so its just finding a balance for me.

The FAI need to just align all seasons, sanction or exclude leagues that dont eg non inclusion in say a FAI participation insurance cover, no access to official referees. Until the FAI make a stand one way or another there wont be an agreement by individual leagues to chance. Even partial changes to season to overlap would be a start. If the issue for current junior and intermediate clubs wasnt part of a power struggle and a dismissiveness of the senior game then actual concern.

I would agree with the last highlighted point but then my club would be i the mix. If my club was not in that group Id be calling the suggestion shortsighted and cheap quick fix stuff. A prime example of why thing have difficulty getting done with a dollop of self interest in any of us when it suits.

[EalingGreen]

Apologies, on the 1st point of expansion, I was thinking more of growth in attendances - more clubs in a small country could in theory dilute attendance potential weakening things to some extent. I know its not necessarily evidence based, my experience in Essex eg is that people supported say Southend and also Spurs/West Ham/Arsenal and would attend both and not deride the lower tierd quality of football and facilities. My experience of Irish fans is to go to LoI and somehow expect Champions League standard of football. If you have the former in IL and someone could support their junior or intermediate club and have a top end club grand. If its an exclusive nature of supporter in IL then it is possible to have too many clubs. If I may liken it to gaelic football clubs just in Dundalk, there are so many (7 or 8) all encroaching on eachother catchement and all arguably weaker, less potential for growth in support and subsequent success etc. in comparison, Drogheda clubs, lesser in number, and some rural clubs in the county dominate a lot more because support, talent and all that goes with are concentrated in those areas with less clubs and so ultimately are stronger. But more clubs does mean greater participation too so its just finding a balance for me.
Only if you have reached "peak attendance", and I cannot believe that you are anywhere near that. Of course it is very difficult to capitalise on potential growth, with the obstacles to be overcome already only too obvious.

But when you look at what the Dublin clubs are doing, esp Shams in a new location, there surely has to be more potential in both Dublin and the regions, no? I mean, if you'd forecast even 10 years ago that crowds would reach their present level, people would have laughed. (Same in IL too.)

But I feel sure that the plan must be to grow from the bottom up, starting with your existing football heartlands, then expanding upwards and beyond as overall interest grows. On which point, looking to examples in England or GAA etc is important, but really, you need to look first at who currently attends LOI football and why, in order to see how others like them could be attracted to come along, if only on a casual basis to start with, and in the hope that some at least will become regulars. And at the same time, see who and why people attend games below LOI level, to see how you might link up (it's that pesky pyramid again).


The FAI need to just align all seasons, sanction or exclude leagues that dont eg non inclusion in say a FAI participation insurance cover, no access to official referees. Until the FAI make a stand one way or another there wont be an agreement by individual leagues to chance. Even partial changes to season to overlap would be a start. If the issue for current junior and intermediate clubs wasnt part of a power struggle and a dismissiveness of the senior game then actual concern.Undoubtedly. And that won't be quick or easy, as I'm sure you appreciate better than me.

Of course as a traditionalist who's attached to the winter game, and opposes occasional calls for a summer season for the IL, I'd say it should be quicker and easier to move the LOI back to winter football, than move the rest of the game to summer football, but I daresay that's never going to happen!


I would agree with the last highlighted point but then my club would be i the mix. If my club was not in that group Id be calling the suggestion shortsighted and cheap quick fix stuff. A prime example of why thing have difficulty getting done with a dollop of self interest in any of us when it suits.If that strategy were adopted, then it would be accepting that future growth in the Senior, professional game could only ever come from the Dirty Doze.... er... !2 Centres of Excellence, with all the rest cast off into the recreational or Community sphere, Irish rugby-style. (Which I'm sure GAA in particular, would absolutely love, since they could hope to achieve or entrench dominance everywhere else).

But rather than just drift into it, you have to be certain that that's what's wanted/needed, since once you go down that road there's no turning back.