Mayo FC

[pineapple stu]

Drogheda and Dundalk are probably better separate than a joint Louth FC team. A bit of local rivalry can be quite healthy.

[EalingGreen]

At present intermediate clubs aren't willing or ready to promote themselves to the LOI, as such clubs like Mayo & Kerry have been set up to provide elite football to those areas without waiting ten years for local club sides to step up.
Then put in place the structure that will allow them to do so. That is, a proper pyramid, built from the bottom up, with attainable steps from Junior to Intermediate, then Intermediate to Senior, with the basic building blocks being existing clubs, where we know there is an appetite for football.



I don't see why we can't let a few county teams join the league while we're in this slow, arduous process of developing a pyramid. It probably suits anyway.

I can, for three reasons.
First, by parachuting Mayo, Kerry or CK into the Senior set-up, you're automatically ending any hope of clubs eg in Castlebar, Tralee or Kilkenny ever making it by a more conventional route;
Second, how many more county/regional candidates are there out there after those three? That is, even if all three succeeded, you'd still only have 22 Senior LOI clubs (incls UCD and Derry), which for a country of ROI's history, resources and potential is very poor (imo);
Third, there is no guarantee that the County/U-19 model will work - if Kerry is anything to go by, the jury must still be out.

And if by "the Irish sports fan's mindset" you mean "barstoolers", "event junkies" or "bandwagoners" etc, should the game really be pandering to those people? Or instead looking to help all the dedicated club men and women who volunteer their time and effort at local teams up and down the country?

Remember, the more you put into this County/Regional model, the more the grassroots get cast adrift.


Building up junior & intermediate football to the point where they can promote the LOI is alll well and good, but it'll take years and in the meantime we badly need opportunities for under 19s graduates who aren't ready yet.Of course "it'll take years".

Which is like the old question: "When's the best time to plant a tree?" Answer: "Twenty five years ago!" Which is just another way of pointing out that just because the obvious solution to a problem is hard, that's still not a good reason for pursuing other, ostensibly easier "solutions" which aren't likely to work.

And as for your U-19 graduates, how many of those are going to travel to play for nothing for a County team which gets beaten most weeks, especially those from the far reaches of the county?
The best will still either go across the water, or get snapped up by another Senior LOI club; while the next best will still likely join their local GAA club (or some other sport); and the rest will most likely opt for "recreational" football with their local team.


I'm very interested in how we're going to get a new pyramid set up but my god this conversation is running in circles.Of course it's going to run around in circles while people resolutely refuse to address the reality, including the difficulties, of actually building a pyramid.

And instead veer off in pursuit of another plan entirely, made worse by trying to pretend it really is pyramid-building (i.e. calling it a "Third Tier"), when it is nothing of the sort. (Don't necessarily mean you by those comments, btw)

[legendz]

Kerry League and Mayo League have entered the League Cup previously. Going back as far as 2004. It was always an indication that the establishment of elite clubs in Kerry and Mayo would be with the support of their local district league.

[El-Pietro]

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.

F*** off away out of that.

[Buller]

Whether Mayo FC or any of the three clubs you mention, none of them needs to achieve those sorts of attendances to sustain a semi-pro club - see eg nigel-harps1954's figures for Athlone, Bray, Longford or Wexford in the Attendances thread.

While Finn Harps averaging 1,370 after relegation, with the twin towns having a population of fewer than 5k in a county at least as geographically remote from the rest of the country as Co.Mayo, shows what can be done. Of course, they rose to Senior status, and maintained it, from their base as an existing community club, not some dreamt-up county or region.

Finn Harps represent all of Donegal and draw a lot of support from other bigger towns nearby - they don't compete against Letterkenny and Donegal town for support.

Wexford town - 20k
Athlone town - 23k
Longford town - 11k

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_ population

Ballina - pop 10k
Castlebar - pop 12k
Westport - pop 5k

Would be very hard to see all 3 teams in Mayo being able to average attendences to sustain nationwide travel and also pay players enough to justify time off travelling, while competing against each other for ever smaller slice of pie.

Common sense would dictate Mayo FC umbrella with proper underage setup, based in Castlebar, is absolutely the correct approach for that region.

[Buller]

Drogheda and Dundalk are probably better separate than a joint Louth FC team. A bit of local rivalry can be quite healthy.

Yeah definitely! In this case absolutely, the populations are over a critical level to support a nationwide pro team each and the rivalry is a big bonus.

Dundalk and Drogheda are big 45k towns.

[JC_GUFC]

Finn Harps represent all of Donegal and draw a lot of support from other bigger towns nearby - they don't compete against Letterkenny and Donegal town for support.

.

I think we all know only too well that EG is well able to argue for himself but I think the point he was making was that when Harps joined the league they would have come from a position of being rivals to those towns at the time.

For me the main point of all of this is that these teams are establishing academies BEFORE they join the senior level, thus at least having some sort of pathway, rather than having to parachute in players with no connection to the club.

I'd be firmly of the view that we need a proper pyramid system but it also needs to be attractive for clubs to join League of Ireland - at the moment most clubs would lose money on joining, particularly ones in areas where it might be difficult to "sell" the idea of a League of Ireland club, like Crumlin United, for example.

There's always the argument of certain players could play League of Ireland but... That "but" is often a flaw in the player, for example Garreth McCaffrey has had plenty of opportunities at LoI level but for whatever reason hasn't been able to make the step up.

Others will just choose to remain locally as the incentive financially isn't enough, I think this is probably the case in Limerick, though again I think the standard of player in the Limerick League is probably vastly overestimated (by themselves mostly!).


I think I'm kind of waffling now but yeah... something something... academies... something something... pyramid structure.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah definitely! In this case absolutely, the populations are over a critical level to support a nationwide pro team each and the rivalry is a big bonus.

Dundalk and Drogheda are big 45k towns.
Yep - I think it's just worth noting different things work for different clubs. I don't think we need be as wedded to the county model as some suggest

[Philosophizer]

County teams is the way to go for the likes of Mayo (and Clare hopefully in the future). It is ok for Sligo, Cork, Galway and Waterford etc as the name of the big town is the same as the county. Identity is important when creating a fanbase and name, shirt colours are key here. Cork should play in red and Limerick in green I feel.
County colours might be an idea for new county teams like Kerry and Mayo to play on that whole county idea, but for as long as I remember Cork have been green and Limerick are blue (Albeit treaty play in red and white stripes I think but eventually I think they’ll revert to the limerick name and the blue colour at some point).
You saw the uproar a few years when the Chinese Cardiff owner wanted to change their club colours - it was ridiculous.

[EatYerGreens]

I'm very interested in how we're going to get a new pyramid set up but my god this conversation is running in circles.
At present intermediate clubs aren't willing or ready to promote themselves to the LOI, as such clubs like Mayo & Kerry have been set up to provide elite football to those areas without waiting ten years for local club sides to step up.
I don't see why we can't let a few county teams join the league while we're in this slow, arduous process of developing a pyramid. It probably suits the Irish sports fan's mindset anyway.

Building up junior & intermediate football to the point where they can promote the LOI is alll well and good, but it'll take years and in the meantime we badly need opportunities for under 19s graduates who aren't ready yet.

Which is why I don't bother contributing any more. It's not far off of a 'We need world peace' discussion.

I've yet to see anyone gennunely disagreeing with the idea of a pyramid in Irish football. It's just that it can't be merely wished into existence. Nor will it simply happen by endlessly repeating the mantra that we should have a pyramid.

Also - The idea that any further tiers or clubs can't be introduced unless and until the whole of Irish football is one big pyramid is also pretty absolutist to be honest. A bit like saying a reduction in conflict in one corner of the planet isn't good enough unless and until we get genuine world peace everywhere.

[EatYerGreens]

County colours might be an idea for new county teams like Kerry and Mayo to play on that whole county idea, but for as long as I remember Cork have been green and Limerick are blue (Albeit treaty play in red and white stripes I think but eventually I think they’ll revert to the limerick name and the blue colour at some point).
You saw the uproar a few years when the Chinese Cardiff owner wanted to change their club colours - it was ridiculous.

Except quite a few Irish clubs have changed colours at various times, with no Cardiff-esque uproar. Wexford being only the latest example. And Cork City also switched from green and white to red and white for a few years in the late 80s/early 90s (?) before switching back.

Limerick City wore yellow and green (Pat Grace's racing colours). Limierick United wore the same colours that Treaty do now.

Cork football teams have had a lot of red, as well as green. Cork Boehmians played in red shirts. Cork Alberts and Cork United played in red and black shirts for their limited shared history. I think the original 1940s Cork FC also played in red (?).

[EatYerGreens]

Finn Harps represent all of Donegal and draw a lot of support from other bigger towns nearby - they don't compete against Letterkenny and Donegal town for support.

I honestly don't think this is true. Donegal is a big county, with very different outlooks, loyalties and parochialisms throughout it. Harps will get smatterings of support in lots of places beyond the Twin Towns. But in parts of Inishowen (which has the highest population of any region in Donegal) there would be quite a bit of Derry support (especially near the border and the eastern side of Inshowen). Apparently half the population of border villages like Muff and Killea are originally from Derry! In south Donegal e.g. Bundoran or Balyshannon, I doubt they care much about Harps. And some there might be tempted more by Sligo, who would be closer. No doubt someone will point out that their uncle Mickey Gallagher from Bundoran loves the Harps, but he'd just be the exception that proved the rule.

[EalingGreen]

I've yet to see anyone gennunely disagreeing with the idea of a pyramid in Irish football.Correct.



It's just that it can't be merely wished into existence.Correct again.



Nor will it simply happen by endlessly repeating the mantra that we should have a pyramid.And how do you get a pyramid?

You start by organising your Junior clubs into local leagues, with comparable playing standards, derived from Promotion and Relegation etc, and minimum facilities standards (pitches, dressing rooms etc) in order to receive official FAI recognition. This should be across the country, with leagues grouped on a geographical basis, regardless of historic or existing County or Provincial boundaries. So that you might have a dozen local leagues, with several divisions, comprising hundreds of clubs in Greater Dublin, but only one or two leagues with a couple of divisions each in other parts of the country.

At the same time, you do the same for your Intermediate (i.e. bigger) clubs, with these organised on a Regional basis. These would be required to be better resourced i.e. financial, stadium, facilities, coaches etc, with standards to obtain the appropriate licence progressively increased until the gap between the top Intermediate clubs and the bottom Senior clubs is no longer unbridgeable, and you can have full P&R between the various levels, from Senior, through Intermediate, right the way down to Junior*.

Of course such a process will take years - 10 at least to establish the basic structure - as we have seen eg in NI. But just as with planting a tree, that is not an excuse for not even starting, rather it is an imperative for starting now, and not allowing yourself to be distracted eg by Third Tier/County/U-19's schemes which can only hinder the process, not help it.

The only other alternative is to throw your hands up, admit it cannot be done, and accept that domestic football in ROI will continue to stagnate with the same old mix of 20-odd Senior clubs, some f-t, some p-t and a couple amateur(!), and all confined to the same few towns and cities. And all this even while the population, economy and appetite for sport and leisure etc throughout the country is increasing all the time.


* - For those that want it, obviously - there will always be a big majority of Junior clubs who have no interest or expectation of climbing higher.

Once/while you've got that underway

[nigel-harps1954]

I honestly don't think this is true. Donegal is a big county, with very different outlooks, loyalties and parochialisms throughout it. Harps will get smatterings of support in lots of places beyond the Twin Towns. But in parts of Inishowen (which has the highest population of any region in Donegal) there would be quite a bit of Derry support (especially near the border and the eastern side of Inshowen). Apparently half the population of border villages like Muff and Killea are originally from Derry! In south Donegal e.g. Bundoran or Balyshannon, I doubt they care much about Harps. And some there might be tempted more by Sligo, who would be closer. No doubt someone will point out that their uncle Mickey Gallagher from Bundoran loves the Harps, but he'd just be the exception that proved the rule.

You're right, and you're wrong. South Donegal provides a very healthy Harps support, and Inishowen is indeed fairly split.

[EatYerGreens]

You're right, and you're wrong. South Donegal provides a very healthy Harps support, and Inishowen is indeed fairly split.

You would know better than me Nigel. But the bottom line is that Harps do not represent all of Donegal, as was claimed. There would be sizeable portions of the county where they either wouldn't be seen as relevant at all, or wouldn't be considered the LOI team to support.

[cláirseach]

It would be very optimistic to think that any one club could represent an area as large and historically disconnected as Donegal, especially when you consider that clubs with longer histories sit just beyond its borders at two points. Indeed the old train lines (Sligo for Enniskillen) might give an indication of where loyalties could have lain had things progressed slightly differently. But, then again, the senior club could just have easily, perhaps more obviously, have been Swilly Rovers and then everything that happened afterwards would have been its own alternative history.

I did spot a Harps fan online complaining last week that McGinty had scored for Derry 'despite' being from Falcarragh, when door-to-door the time spent travelling was the same and the cultural links arguably stronger. It is a big county, with several notable seperations. A big factor in the attendance at matches is the distance travelled, which is even misunderstood by people from central Donegal. As I sit here typing this in my rented house in Dublin I am closer to no fewer than 14 senior football clubs than my parents are to Finn Harps.

However the initial point that Buller made was that Harps don't battle for support with the clubs of the large towns around them, and gave LK and, for some reason, Donegal Town as examples which, barring the usual inter-grade bickering is largely true. You can't point to the population of the twin towns as an benchmark for Harps support. Even though there are other barriers, using those numbers as a base is just dishonest.

On another note, Harps themselves have changed colours quite radically, and have rarely worn anything approaching the county GAA / Council colours, bar the odd striking away kit.

Of course, despite the clubs marketing over the past decade, there could be an argument that it used to represent an area that, while not claiming everywhere within, actually spilled over Donegal's borders.

[Neish]

You would know better than me Nigel. But the bottom line is that Harps do not represent all of Donegal, as was claimed. There would be sizeable portions of the county where they either wouldn't be seen as relevant at all, or wouldn't be considered the LOI team to support.

The same would apply to every LOI team and their county, town or city. How many of the Dublin clubs have merchandise claiming to be pride of Dublin etc?
80-90% of people of local football fans may a most go to their local loi ground a few time a season if at all

[EalingGreen]

It would be very optimistic to think that any one club could represent an area as large and historically disconnected as Donegal, especially when you consider that clubs with longer histories sit just beyond its borders at two points. Indeed the old train lines (Sligo for Enniskillen) might give an indication of where loyalties could have lain had things progressed slightly differently.Interesting.

People talk about the influence of Garrison towns on the development of football in Ireland (possibly overstated?), while simultaneously overlooking the importance of the railways, who encouraged surprisingly high crowds to travel to games even in rural areas. The following extracts from the Official History of the Fermanagh & Western Association (inaugurated in 1907) illustrate:

"The Clogher Valley League, organised in 1903, only accepted entries from teams based within five miles of the Clogher Valley Railway Company’s line, and thus teams such as Maguiresbridge Lilywhites and their village rivals Maguiresbridge Deadshots, Fivemiletown, Aughnacloy, and Caledon competed for a trophy donated by the Directors of the Railway Company."

While the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties Railway (SLNC - "Slow, Late & Never Connects"!) will also have been influential in the development of the game in those parts:

"The report of Annual General Meeting of the Fermanagh and Western District Football Association held in May 1907 reveals the origins of the current Divisional Association of the IFA. The Honorary Secretary, Mr J P Gillen, submitted his report which stated that the IFA had been approached with a view to extending the range of the local association to Sligo. The IFA had sanctioned the proposal and arranged a grant of the not inconsiderable sum of £50*, with the proviso that the new association was to be absorbed in the North West Football Association. This was unanimously opposed, and a further proposal was made which was acceptable. Thus the Fermanagh and South Tyrone Association was, “in the third year of its existence, transformed into the Fermanagh and Western District Association, controlling the district from Fermanagh to Mayo, with two representatives on the Senior Council, and one on the Junior Council.” As part of their efforts to promote football in the west, the IFA honoured the district by selecting Enniskillen as the venue for the Irish Junior Cup Final of 1908.

While those early meetings were covered in the press, unfortunately no minute books survive from the period, so that records of the various competitions are incomplete. Teams from Sligo, Clones and Cavan were successful in those early days, but it is not clear if any competitive football was played during the Great War."
https://www.fermanaghandwestern.com/content_page/10027715/

All of which stands to my own contention that rather than developing the game via brand new, made up entities from regions which never had much history in the game previously, it would produce better results to concentrate on existing clubs and areas, before then expanding outwards to newer areas from a position of strength and stability.

Or "Cast your seed on fertile ground", as it says in the Good Book.

Apparently.

* - Aiui, that £50 grant was hoped to help counter the GAA, who were advancing strongly in the region at that time.

[legendz]

Some of the talk of county teams is exaggerated. Kerry League and Mayo League have had the ambition to enter the eircom U21 league previously and also the League Cup. The establishment of elite clubs for these district leagues has taken a lot longer than it should have.
If a third tier gets off the ground and is seen to be as low cost as entering the U19 league, there's no reason why existing clubs can't follow in the footsteps of Finn Harps, especially if there is no existing LoI club in that area e.g. Mullingar, Fanad United and Tullamore. Any ambitious clubs should join the youth leagues first and build from there.

[GUFCghost]

Then put in place the structure that will allow them to do so. That is, a proper pyramid, built from the bottom up, with attainable steps from Junior to Intermediate, then Intermediate to Senior, with the basic building blocks being existing clubs, where we know there is an appetite for football.


I can, for three reasons.
First, by parachuting Mayo, Kerry or CK into the Senior set-up, you're automatically ending any hope of clubs eg in Castlebar, Tralee or Kilkenny ever making it by a more conventional route;
Second, how many more county/regional candidates are there out there after those three? That is, even if all three succeeded, you'd still only have 22 Senior LOI clubs (incls UCD and Derry), which for a country of ROI's history, resources and potential is very poor (imo);
Third, there is no guarantee that the County/U-19 model will work - if Kerry is anything to go by, the jury must still be out.

And if by "the Irish sports fan's mindset" you mean "barstoolers", "event junkies" or "bandwagoners" etc, should the game really be pandering to those people? Or instead looking to help all the dedicated club men and women who volunteer their time and effort at local teams up and down the country?

Remember, the more you put into this County/Regional model, the more the grassroots get cast adrift.

Of course "it'll take years".

Which is like the old question: "When's the best time to plant a tree?" Answer: "Twenty five years ago!" Which is just another way of pointing out that just because the obvious solution to a problem is hard, that's still not a good reason for pursuing other, ostensibly easier "solutions" which aren't likely to work.

And as for your U-19 graduates, how many of those are going to travel to play for nothing for a County team which gets beaten most weeks, especially those from the far reaches of the county?
The best will still either go across the water, or get snapped up by another Senior LOI club; while the next best will still likely join their local GAA club (or some other sport); and the rest will most likely opt for "recreational" football with their local team.

Of course it's going to run around in circles while people resolutely refuse to address the reality, including the difficulties, of actually building a pyramid.

And instead veer off in pursuit of another plan entirely, made worse by trying to pretend it really is pyramid-building (i.e. calling it a "Third Tier"), when it is nothing of the sort. (Don't necessarily mean you by those comments, btw)

By the "Irish sports fan's mindset" I mean supporting/being involved with your local parish team as well as supporting a team that represents your county. Very common to see jackets & jerseys from various small clubs across Galway at a Galway United match for example. Including Mervue & Salthill. I don't think anyone wants go back to one parish team representing Galway in the league in front of about 200 people.

I think u19s grads are served far better by playing in an actual senior division than local leagues full of parish, pub & town teams. Even if they are getting hammered at first, I think Kerry FC will do far better next year, eventually gunning for play off spots like Mervue & Cabo did. However, Kerry have done some actual marketing. They know their target audience I expect they'll be much better supported than either of those clubs at that stage.
(or they might remain ****e, such is the nature of sport, I'm saying they're in a good position to actually profit from success)

You seem very evangelical about this subject, and I think in your haste you've forgotten about marketing. Mayo FC has a bigger potential audience than Castlebar Celtic.

And I can't see why a club like Castlebar, with all of it's focus & attention placed on recreational players & community efforts, would want to pivot to elite football.
These clubs want to have u8s training on a sunday morning because that's what their community needs, that's an entirely separate set of ambitions from a LOI club.

Ultimately I think these franchise county sides can co-exisit with a fully functioning pyramid. Now is the time to set up a third tier like the old A-Championship, reform the provincial leagues and link the whole thing up over the course of a few years.

I can see this thread going on for ages with little progress, thank god we have a Glentoran fan gracious enough to tell us muck savages down south how to run our league!

[EalingGreen]

By the "Irish sports fan's mindset" I mean supporting/being involved with your local parish team as well as supporting a team that represents your county. Very common to see jackets & jerseys from various small clubs across Galway at a Galway United match for example. Including Mervue & Salthill. I don't think anyone wants go back to one parish team representing Galway in the league in front of about 200 people.Fair dues, I had misunderstood your meaning.


I think u19s grads are served far better by playing in an actual senior division than local leagues full of parish, pub & town teams. Even if they are getting hammered at first, I think Kerry FC will do far better next year, eventually gunning for play off spots like Mervue & Cabo did. However, Kerry have done some actual marketing. They know their target audience I expect they'll be much better supported than either of those clubs at that stage.
(or they might remain ****e, such is the nature of sport, I'm saying they're in a good position to actually profit from success)
That's one route, but is a brand new entity, where even adult players face enough problems making the step-up, the best proving ground for promising teenagers or 20 y.o.'s? The model is still unproven and so far at least, Kerry have much ground to make up to be competitive. And as for Mervue and Cabo, well, look at them now.

I guess what I'm saying is that isn't it better that promising young players make the breakthrough to adult football via established adult clubs, whether coming through the clubs' own Academies, or scouted from Intermediate (adult) clubs, or signed from youth leagues eg the DDSL?


You seem very evangelical about this subject, and I think in your haste you've forgotten about marketing. Mayo FC has a bigger potential audience than Castlebar Celtic.I'll take "evangelical" allright - tbh, "Nerdy" would have been fair enough!

As for Marketing (Promotion), obviously that's important, and Kerry seem to be doing well on that front. But even assuming the "product" (i.e. team) you're promoting is doing ok, there's still a whole lot more to establishing a club in Senior football than that. Finance and Facilities/Infrastructure are at least as important, also having fixed your place in your local community (sponsors, media, local businesses etc). And a hard core fanbase, who'll continue to support the club regardless is also vital, should a club go through a bad patch. Above all, to achieve all these things you need "proper football men" (and women!) who've all previously volunteered their time and effort to carry out all the million things that need to be done to establish a club and progress through the different levels of the game, from local to regional, and from there (hopefully) to national.

If results don't pick up for Kerry, and once the novelty has worn off, will their impressive crowds to date hold up next season and the season(s) after? And if they don't, how will the club make the next step up to paying players on p-t contracts etc, or risk losing the best of them? At which point, will the new guys running the club still have the same enthusiasm and commitment of long time club stalwarts who've done the hard yards down the years? (Btw, I'm not saying Kerry FC won't make it, but even assuming they do, how many others are there out there to follow in their tracks?)


And I can't see why a club like Castlebar, with all of it's focus & attention placed on recreational players & community efforts, would want to pivot to elite football.
These clubs want to have u8s training on a sunday morning because that's what their community needs, that's an entirely separate set of ambitions from a LOI club. But that's my point. For clubs like eg Castlebar, Tralee Dynamos or Mullingar Celtic, it shouldn't have to be an 'Either/Or' between being a Community club or a Senior professional club, it should be possible for such clubs to be both i.e offering LOI football from the foundation of their roots in their local community.


Ultimately I think these franchise county sides can co-exisit with a fully functioning pyramid. Now is the time to set up a third tier like the old A-Championship, reform the provincial leagues and link the whole thing up over the course of a few years.You may be right, but it seems to me that this new County/U-19's model is at best a distraction from the need to build a proper pyramid, and at worst will make it even harder. That is, if County teams should get established in Kerry or Mayo etc, then that would end any chance for another ambitious club within that county or region ever to make the step-up. After all, if you'd originally had eg a "Louth FC", would the towns of Dundalk and Drogheda ever have seen Senior football for themselves? Or if a "Donegal FC" had been located, say, in Letterkenny (the obvious centre), would Finn Harps ever have achieved Senior status? Cork City alongside Cobh Ramblers?



I can see this thread going on for ages with little progress, thank god we have a Glentoran fan gracious enough to tell us muck savages down south how to run our league!As a fan of IL football, I think there is a lot we can learn from our LOI neighbours (eg your increased crowds) and vice versa (expanding the game). Indeed as a football obsessive generally, I can assure you I'm not solely interested in Irish football, North and South, either - I mean, you don't want to get me onto the European Super League, or VAR, for instance!

But either way, I've tried to be respectful in my comments, hope I don't come across as condescending, and on a football forum which is uncommonly civil and generally welcoming etc, I would certainly never use a term like "muck savages".

UTG!

[GUFCghost]

Yea upon reflection that muck savages bit was not wise, I apologize, I think I'm tyring to gesture towards the possibility that there's a cultural disconnect in this matter between the north and south, or maybe even just a rural urban divide.

In most counties the biggest town shares the same name as the county, so a clubs like Galway United & Sligo Rovers mirroring a GAA county/club model is inevitable. There's no harm in trying to get that same energy in places like Kerry or Mayo and clubs founded by their FAs seems like the way to go. It doesn't suit everywhere and nobody is mad enough to try and force Louth FC unto the world.

If in the future Castlebar Celtic want to challenge Mayo FC via the pyramid let them, but I'd say they'd get little support if allegiances with Mayo FC are already established. Mervue nearly got promoted but didn't get near Galway United's support, even as the only real show in town.

[legendz]

At which point, will the new guys running the club still have the same enthusiasm and commitment of long time club stalwarts who've done the hard yards down the years? (Btw, I'm not saying Kerry FC won't make it, but even assuming they do, how many others are there out there to follow in their tracks?)

But that's my point. For clubs like eg Castlebar, Tralee Dynamos or Mullingar Celtic, it shouldn't have to be an 'Either/Or' between being a Community club or a Senior professional club, it should be possible for such clubs to be both i.e offering LOI football from the foundation of their roots in their local community.
Why are you assuming people who run District Leagues are not enthusiastic and committed? Kerry FC have become established from the Kerry District League. Mayo FC likewise.

[nr637]

Just thinking what jersey design will Mayo FC use, hope its nothing like the GAA strip which is an awful design.
Junior clubs like Westport, Castlebar & Ballina have good styled jersey designs.
The red & green are very intense bright colours, so a strip design needs to use the colours with some thought for its look!

[JC_GUFC]

And as for Mervue and Cabo, well, look at them now.



Well Mervue went back to the Galway & District League along with Salthill. I think the idea was that Mervue & Salthill would remain as "senior" clubs and play in a newly rejuvinated Connacht Senior League but there was no interest.

This is one of the problems with the pyramid, whatever about clubs not wanting to join the League of Ireland junior clubs don't even want to join "regional" leagues of a higher standard.

How do you create a Connacht Senior League without clubs?!

With the Northern Intermediate League being scrapped what will happen to those clubs like Maiden City or NewBuildings? Will they just enter the local Derry leagues with no chance of promotion to NIFL?

I suppose it all needs to be tied into funding etc. Should a random junior club with no ambition for promotion be allowed receive grant money of over €x? Whereas a club at intermediate/senior level can receive €y/z.

[legendz]

Just thinking what jersey design will Mayo FC use, hope its nothing like the GAA strip which is an awful design.
Junior clubs like Westport, Castlebar & Ballina have good styled jersey designs.
The red & green are very intense bright colours, so a strip design needs to use the colours with some thought for its look!
What's the Mayo League jersey? That's probably what you are looking for. The Kerry FC jersey is the Kerry League jersey.

[culloty82]

Fair dues, I had misunderstood your meaning.

That's one route, but is a brand new entity, where even adult players face enough problems making the step-up, the best proving ground for promising teenagers or 20 y.o.'s? The model is still unproven and so far at least, Kerry have much ground to make up to be competitive. And as for Mervue and Cabo, well, look at them now.

I guess what I'm saying is that isn't it better that promising young players make the breakthrough to adult football via established adult clubs, whether coming through the clubs' own Academies, or scouted from Intermediate (adult) clubs, or signed from youth leagues eg the DDSL?

I'll take "evangelical" allright - tbh, "Nerdy" would have been fair enough!

As for Marketing (Promotion), obviously that's important, and Kerry seem to be doing well on that front. But even assuming the "product" (i.e. team) you're promoting is doing ok, there's still a whole lot more to establishing a club in Senior football than that. Finance and Facilities/Infrastructure are at least as important, also having fixed your place in your local community (sponsors, media, local businesses etc). And a hard core fanbase, who'll continue to support the club regardless is also vital, should a club go through a bad patch. Above all, to achieve all these things you need "proper football men" (and women!) who've all previously volunteered their time and effort to carry out all the million things that need to be done to establish a club and progress through the different levels of the game, from local to regional, and from there (hopefully) to national.

If results don't pick up for Kerry, and once the novelty has worn off, will their impressive crowds to date hold up next season and the season(s) after? And if they don't, how will the club make the next step up to paying players on p-t contracts etc, or risk losing the best of them? At which point, will the new guys running the club still have the same enthusiasm and commitment of long time club stalwarts who've done the hard yards down the years? (Btw, I'm not saying Kerry FC won't make it, but even assuming they do, how many others are there out there to follow in their tracks?)

But that's my point. For clubs like eg Castlebar, Tralee Dynamos or Mullingar Celtic, it shouldn't have to be an 'Either/Or' between being a Community club or a Senior professional club, it should be possible for such clubs to be both i.e offering LOI football from the foundation of their roots in their local community.

You may be right, but it seems to me that this new County/U-19's model is at best a distraction from the need to build a proper pyramid, and at worst will make it even harder. That is, if County teams should get established in Kerry or Mayo etc, then that would end any chance for another ambitious club within that county or region ever to make the step-up. After all, if you'd originally had eg a "Louth FC", would the towns of Dundalk and Drogheda ever have seen Senior football for themselves? Or if a "Donegal FC" had been located, say, in Letterkenny (the obvious centre), would Finn Harps ever have achieved Senior status? Cork City alongside Cobh Ramblers?


As a fan of IL football, I think there is a lot we can learn from our LOI neighbours (eg your increased crowds) and vice versa (expanding the game). Indeed as a football obsessive generally, I can assure you I'm not solely interested in Irish football, North and South, either - I mean, you don't want to get me onto the European Super League, or VAR, for instance!

But either way, I've tried to be respectful in my comments, hope I don't come across as condescending, and on a football forum which is uncommonly civil and generally welcoming etc, I would certainly never use a term like "muck savages".

UTG!

In truth, there have been three phases of attempting to develop a broader regional basis to the League of Ireland since the turn of the millennium. In the first, the Kerry and Mayo Leagues were both involved at U21 level, and the performances of the former suggested that then, rather than now, was the ideal opportunity to apply for the First Division, but the then board expressed no interest at the time. Then, the FAI promptly scrapped the county approach in favour of the A Championship, with Salthill and Mervue the main beneficiaries, but the crowds were minimal, even if hardly reported, and while Dynamos' matches were duly covered in the local papers, there certainly wasn't the same degree of interest, albeit social media was only in its infancy. So, while I accept your argument about wanting a pure meritocracy, what culturally suits more established soccer counties doesn't necessarily apply in the rest of the country.

[nr637]

What's the Mayo League jersey? That's probably what you are looking for. The Kerry FC jersey is the Kerry League jersey.

Any images, I did do a quick google search, but you just get covered in that horrible Mayo GAA strip!

Have you any image or links?

:confused:

[legendz]

Any images, I did do a quick google search, but you just get covered in that horrible Mayo GAA strip!

Have you any image or links?

:confused:
https://galwayunitedfc.ie/match-report-galway-united-2-0-mayo-league/

[EalingGreen]

Well Mervue went back to the Galway & District League along with Salthill. I think the idea was that Mervue & Salthill would remain as "senior" clubs and play in a newly rejuvinated Connacht Senior League but there was no interest.

This is one of the problems with the pyramid, whatever about clubs not wanting to join the League of Ireland junior clubs don't even want to join "regional" leagues of a higher standard.

How do you create a Connacht Senior League without clubs?!
That bit in bold sums up how the present regional (i.e. Provincial) set-up simply isn't fit for purpose.

Fact is, if you want Intermediate football of a good standard, with competitive leagues comprising strong clubs who could reasonably aspire to Senior status, you build the Intermediate leagues where the clubs are, not in areas where the clubs aren't!

Which means that initially at least, Intermediate football would be heavily concentrated around Dublin/Greater Dublin/East Coast etc, with a few other centres in Cork and Munster etc. Then when these are established, you look to take advantage of a "ripple effect" and expand outwards, to the strongest clubs in the more poorly served areas. Note that this is the exact opposite of the current LOI/FAI experiment, where they are in danger of "casting their seed on stony ground" - literally in the case of Mayo! - first, with new under-age clubs like Kerry FC and Mayo FC, while neglecting to do much for the leading adult clubs outside the LOI set-up, who are located in already popular footballing areas.

Talk about "Cart before Horse!" (if I may mix my metaphors. Again)


With the Northern Intermediate League being scrapped what will happen to those clubs like Maiden City or NewBuildings? Will they just enter the local Derry leagues with no chance of promotion to NIFL?
It's all down to the individual clubs. Some may switch to Derry leagues (personally doubt it). Some may revert to Junior football. Others may switch to the nearest Intermediate League - at least a couple are talking about the Ballymena & District, which is now completely misnamed, since it draws teams from all over. While Strabane are even talking about aspiring to Senior status, the point being that they all have a reasonable choice, unlike eg the rump clubs in the neighbouring Ulster Senior League. (Distances in NI being shorter helps, of course.)

And to get back to my point above about building from the centre out, Dublin currently has four Senior clubs, plus UCD. While Belfast, with less than half the population, has 4 clubs in the top tier, plus another 4 in the second tier. Now you may argue that that's too many, but nonetheless along with Antrim, mid-Ulster and North Down, it reflects growth from NI's traditional footballing heartlands, which by now has spread to outer areas which didn't have such a tradition, eg Fermanagh/Ballinamallard, Tyrone/Dungannon or South Down/Warrenpoint.

Indeed, that last is a good example. For when Newry City got into financial difficulties and went bust, Point were able to sign some of their players, plus others from over the border, and climb the pyramid to the Prem. Meanwhile, Newry's "phoenix" club had a pyramid to start again in (5th tier?) and following a number of promotions, were able to resume their place in the top flight for last season, ironically replacing the Point!

While when Point failed to get a Championship licence for next season, due to overlooking to pay a £14k tax bill by the end of March*, they were able to drop down to the PIL (3rd tier), where they are strong favourites for immediate promotion next season.

All of which emphasises the value of a properly constructed pyramid, even (especially?) in a small place like NI.

* - They had the money, and settled with the Revenue in mid-April, but by then had missed the NIFL's strict licensing deadline.


I suppose it all needs to be tied into funding etc. Should a random junior club with no ambition for promotion be allowed receive grant money of over €x? Whereas a club at intermediate/senior level can receive €y/z.It has to be a combination of carrot and stick. That is, clubs which qualify for grant aid and funding ("carrot") have also to demonstrate commitment and discipline over matters like financial viability, stadium & facilites, support etc if they are to acquire the appropriate Licence ("stick").

Meaning that those clubs which cannot, or will not, show such ambition, may remain happily carrying on in whatever league they find themselves in, and/or concentrate instead on grass roots work (eg youth, women and girls, football-for-all etc). As such they may receive funding from local Councils, charities or Sport Ireland etc, but miss out on FAI funding devoted to developing the adult structure of the domestic game.

[EatYerGreens]

Just thinking what jersey design will Mayo FC use, hope its nothing like the GAA strip which is an awful design.
Junior clubs like Westport, Castlebar & Ballina have good styled jersey designs.
The red & green are very intense bright colours, so a strip design needs to use the colours with some thought for its look!

The old fashion advice is 'red and green should never be seen' :D

They're basically Christmas colours.

[EatYerGreens]

https://galwayunitedfc.ie/match-report-galway-united-2-0-mayo-league/

Not a fan of that. They should major on the green, and then just have a small amount of red.

#GokWan

[legendz]

Not a fan of that. They should major on the green, and then just have a small amount of red.

#GokWan
https://www.extratime.com/articles/16085/in-pictures-galway-united-3---1-mayo-league/

This suggests they added red between 2016 and 2017.

[JC_GUFC]

That bit in bold sums up how the present regional (i.e. Provincial) set-up simply isn't fit for purpose.

Fact is, if you want Intermediate football of a good standard, with competitive leagues comprising strong clubs who could reasonably aspire to Senior status, you build the Intermediate leagues where the clubs are, not in areas where the clubs aren't!

Which means that initially at least, Intermediate football would be heavily concentrated around Dublin/Greater Dublin/East Coast etc, with a few other centres in Cork and Munster etc. Then when these are established, you look to take advantage of a "ripple effect" and expand outwards, to the strongest clubs in the more poorly served areas. Note that this is the exact opposite of the current LOI/FAI experiment, where they are in danger of "casting their seed on stony ground" - literally in the case of Mayo! - first, with new under-age clubs like Kerry FC and Mayo FC, while neglecting to do much for the leading adult clubs outside the LOI set-up, who are located in already popular footballing areas.



I guess if there was an incentive to join an Intermediate League clubs would do it - so as you say if the FAI just announced that to enter senior League of Ireland you had to be promoted via a "Senior League" it wouldn't be long before a Connacht/Ulster one was established and clubs from outside Cork would join the MSL.

[EalingGreen]

The old fashion advice is 'red and green should never be seen' :DEr, don't you mean: "Blue and Green should never be seen, without a colour in between"? (Google it).

Anyhow, there is nothing wrong with Red and Green, so long as it goes with Black:

https://www.glentoran.com/sites/default/files/1950-1951colourised.jpg

[EatYerGreens]

Er, don't you mean: "Blue and Green should never be seen, without a colour in between"? (Google it).

Anyhow, there is nothing wrong with Red and Green, so long as it goes with Black:

https://www.glentoran.com/sites/default/files/1950-1951colourised.jpg

This is what the BBC says in Are there really 'rules' to what to wear? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24019737) :

"Then there is red and green which "should only be seen upon an Irish queen" and "never be seen without a colour in between", according to traditional sayings."Often these rules come from how similar in tone and hue the colours are supposed to be," says Butchart. "

The red and green thing is because wearers look like one of Santa's helpers or a Christmas tree in those colours. Blue and greeen is actually fairly common - including in a number of N.Ireland jersies in recent years.


CULT KITS - 2016/17 NORTHERN IRELAND HOME SHIRT (M) ADIDAS – Cult Kits (https://www.cultkits.com/products/2016-2017-northern-ireland-home-shirt-m-adidas?currency=GBP&variant=43843393683683&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=&gclid=CjwKCAjw44mlBhAQEiwAqP3eVs7g-TAHFkMQXFq9FI6e_7Aj459FppI3waGygfwU2uD_as-MHo375BoCWjMQAvD_BwE)

[Buller]

Calling it now: Jersey colours are the new league pyramids!