Ireland Vs Italia (inc scores)

[brine3]

A few conclusions from the match:

- Matt Holland. What does he bring to the team? I still haven't figured it out.

- Shay Given. We'd be far up a certain creek without him.

- Kevin Kilbane. Absolutely ****e one half, good the next.

- Damien Duff. Looks like the summer rest has done him well.

- Richard Dunne. There's no fooling me, he's still the same Honeymonster he used to be.

- Andy O'Brien. Sublime again. McGrath-like positioning. When Kenny quits, we're in good hands.

- John O'Shea. Better than Harte at left back and better than Holland at centre midfield.

- Andy Reid. Too many failed gallery passes and ballooned shots from distance. Fantastic talent, more discipline please.

- Clinton. Frustrating to watch, but always in the right place when it counts. The Irish Pipo Inzaghi.

Those are the main things that I will take from this match.

[geysir]

O'Brien has played himself into the back four.

As for O'Shea, midfield is obviously not his position, of course he looked lost. He is still well in contention for LFB. There is a need for some height at the back. Despite what some of your girlfriends might say, size does matter. There has to be at least 2 big guys at the back with Kenny, especially with having 3 midgets in midfield.
Look at Italy they have a good blend of sizes, they know you don't win games with a team full of Gattuso's.
A player has to be really really good to compensate for being small eg Gattuso. But if a player is tall then he only needs a little bit of skill. Look at Kilbane, just a hint of skill every now and then and he is on the team tearing up and down the pitch in the green shirt of Ireland. :-)

[soccerc]

Clinton didnt do much


From the comfort of the barstool or couch?


Don't comment on what you haven't seen live...............Clint worked his ass off in a difficult formation......................................... ..... then again I;ve seen your comments on the U21's V NI :)

[geysir]

From the comfort of the barstool or couch?


Don't comment on what you haven't seen live...............Clint worked his ass off in a difficult formation......................................... ..... then again I;ve seen your comments on the U21's V NI :)

You mean to refer to

"Givens is a diaster.. very poor last night"

yes someone does need some IT lessons :-)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Andy Reid

Who Ate all the pies? Who ate All the pies? I think the answer is Andy Reid :D

[gspain]

Outplayed for most of the first half.

O'Brien has kept his place for France.

Agree Holland was very poor - Kilbane must start in central midfield if we play 4 4 2. I thought Kilbane played very well. Clinton waqs not enough but there isn't really another option. O'Shea did well at left back but was lost in midfield. Cunningham and dunne was run ragged in the first half.

Still it was only a friendly - no harm in being exposed once we get it right for France.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm perfectly happy with that exercise. We played really well for 60 minutes and, as said above, we won't be going into the French game feeling smug. Weaknesses were exposed which we can work on.

It was worth trying the formation but it proves that while it really suits Duff & Reid it isolates the front man. As soccerc says, Clinton worked his ass off & I actually think he performed a difficult job very well.

It was also worthwhile giving Steven Reid a lengthy run out and, for once, in his best position.

The French will have learnt little other than we were poor at defending set-pieces (again) and were vulnerable to early long balls.

I'm hoping Dunne's performance reflected his injury / fitness. But I'm getting the impression that he's a great "backs-to-the-wall" defender (like at Highbury, OT and Chelsea last year) but maybe not so well suited to an open game. Andy O'Brien definitely improves our defence.

I actually thought O'Shea did well in midfield & even if others don't agree it was definitely useful to see him there.

Elliott, as I consistently say, has a real eye for goal and his time will come soon. Niall Quinn pointed out that he has a great knack of losing his marker.

The biggest downside for me was not being able to be there and having to put up with Paul Dempsey doing his Bill O'Herlihy devil's advocate impression after the game. Some Irish in my local in NW London didn't even know our player's names. O'Shea was getting a pasting from one drunken idiot every time Andy O'Brien touched the ball.

[stickyjoe]

Good match last night considering how poor friendlies normally are.
OBrien was solid when he came on. Holland didnt do enough before he went off injured to displace Kilbane from the centre of the park for the french game

For what its worth the team I would go with against France is below, I reckon its what Kerr will go with as well except he will probably play Finnan in midfield instead of reid and have oshea at left back. Fingers crossed for the next couple of weeks that we dont pick up any injuries

Given
Carr - OBrien - Kenny - Finnan
Reid - Kilbane - Roy - Duff
Morrison - Robbie

[drinkfeckarse]

I'm hoping Dunne's performance reflected his injury / fitness. But I'm getting the impression that he's a great "backs-to-the-wall" defender (like at Highbury, OT and Chelsea last year) but maybe not so well suited to an open game. Andy O'Brien definitely improves our defence.




I agree with that, he always looks a class act when I see him for City and looks nervous when I see him in the Green. Very frustrating because he's a great defender on his day.

I think he's much better than O'Brien in the Premiership but O'Brien is showing him how it's done in th eInternational arena. A lot of it last night could be put down to his match fitness alright though, I saw him after about 25 minutes and his jersey was soaking compared to a small few patches on everybody else's.

[Dotsy]

Agree on the smugness point. Playing the Italians now could turn out to be a masterstroke from the FAI as it exposed our weaknesses, only problem is I don't know if we can do anything about it before France.

Re Harte, I'd play him in front of O'Shea, but thats not saying much. Harte still has the infuriating ability to get himself at least 20 yards out of position a few times every half (I counted at least two). But again, he isn't O Shea and for that we must be thankful.

If we beat the French it will be passion and fight that does it as despite Kerrs best efforts at playing continental type football, with very few exceptions we just don't have the players.

Plenty we can do before France.

Revert to 4-4-2. It's what we know and play best. The two Keanes back in. RK and Kilbane in the centre. Holland was anonymous before going off. We won't end up playing long balls into Morrison and completely ignoring Duff in his best position on the wing. This will also give more protection to our defence.

O' Brien in for Dunne. Apart from the fact that Dunne obvioulsy wan't match fit I think O' Brien brings more composure to the defence and has better positional sense.

Full backs, Carr on the right and Finnan on the left. IMO Finnan is a better defender than O'Shea even when playing on the left (however I will accept he didn't have his best game last night). Finnan will definitely give us more options going forward.

The most pleasing thing for me was how well Morrison played. Held the ball up really well and was unlucky with a couple of good strikes. The guy never seems to stop running for the 90 minutes. Definitely our best option to play up front with Keane. Elliot looked good when he came on and would be a good option late on in the French game if we need a goal.

All in all I thought it was a good run out and was good preparation for the French match so long as Kerr has the sense to play 4-4-2 in September

[Stuttgart88]

I swa this quote from Kerr after the match:

``We've been very slavish in Ireland in general about 4-4-2 and it's benefits.
It's fine, but it depends on the players you have.
``When you look at Italy, in their last three matches they've played three
different systems - 4-3-3, 4-4-2, and in this game 4-3-2-1.
``Because there's not too much change or variation in the English league, I
don't think that's particularly good for a player's education.
``It's not something we can do anything about, but I still think we did well,
created chances with 14 decent attempts on goal.
``I wanted to play the team we did. I will look at it again and review it in a
calmer environment. I will think about things and make my decisions over the
next few weeks.''

Very professional response I thought. Last night was one of the first times in years I didn't have any issues withy team selections or substitutions.

[Dotsy]

I swa this quote from Kerr after the match:

``We've been very slavish in Ireland in general about 4-4-2 and it's benefits.
It's fine, but it depends on the players you have.
``When you look at Italy, in their last three matches they've played three
different systems - 4-3-3, 4-4-2, and in this game 4-3-2-1.
``Because there's not too much change or variation in the English league, I
don't think that's particularly good for a player's education.
``It's not something we can do anything about, but I still think we did well,
created chances with 14 decent attempts on goal.
``I wanted to play the team we did. I will look at it again and review it in a
calmer environment. I will think about things and make my decisions over the
next few weeks.''

Very professional response I thought. Last night was one of the first times in years I didn't have any issues withy team selections or substitutions.


Agreed re the team selection and the substitutions. It was a freindly and variations need to be looked at. Was happy to see him try a different formation also. It maybe something for the future but for now he needs to revert to 4-4-2 for France match.

[Stuttgart88]

for now he needs to revert to 4-4-2 for France match.
I think he will. I'm not sure I'd disagree with Stickyjoe's team selection above.

[Dotsy]

I think he will. I'm not sure I'd disagree with Stickyjoe's team selection above.

That's the team I'd pick

[Stuttgart88]

I just read Mark Lawrenson's analysis in the Irish Times. I mostly agree with the analysis of the shape & its merits / demerits but I totally disagree with the tone, like last night was some kind of disaster. Kerr was right to have a look at a 3 man central midfield without Roy Keane, even if it was only to rule it out as a viable option in a competitive match. I honestly think that if we have both Keanes back we'll play 4-4-2, and most likely will anyway regardless of who's available.

[thejollyrodger]

From the comfort of the barstool or couch?


Don't comment on what you haven't seen live...............Clint worked his ass off in a difficult formation......................................... ..... then again I;ve seen your comments on the U21's V NI :)

I didnt see the game until TV3 showed it. I was just going on reports from radio.

CLintion did a lot of work last night, running etc, but his finishing wasnt great.

He could have done better with those shots he had, how many were on target ?Same about the handball because he made a good turn.

Im a fan of Clint, he has done well for us. No substitute for robbie though.

[thejollyrodger]

I just read Mark Lawrenson's analysis in the Irish Times. I mostly agree with the analysis of the shape & its merits / demerits but I totally disagree with the tone, like last night was some kind of disaster. Kerr was right to have a look at a 3 man central midfield without Roy Keane, even if it was only to rule it out as a viable option in a competitive match. I honestly think that if we have both Keanes back we'll play 4-4-2, and most likely will anyway regardless of who's available.

Mark Lawerenson is a fan of 4-4-2 keep it simple approach. One of his pet hates is when teams try to use different tatical formations.

Kerr was dead right in trying out 4-3-3 again. If we get any friendlies again before the WC it might be worth another look. It might throw the French off as to what formation we will play. If Roy and Robbie are fit then its defitnely going to be 4-4-2.


here is lawersons article btw.







Ireland playing 4- 3-3 just doesn't add up
Mark Lawrenson




Analysis: That was an experiment in Lansdowne Road last night that has, hopefully, been binned. It's the first part of the match that counts. Forget the last half hour. They make changes, we make changes. People come and go, it's the first hour that counts and, in that time, I tried to understand the logic of Brian Kerr and I couldn't do it.

I hope next month in the World Cup qualifying match against France we play 4-4-2. That's what Irish teams do. They do 4-4-2. I remember when Mick McCarthy first took the job and he experimented with 4-3-3 and 5-3-2. He had a little look at everything, but no. Once we go to 4-4-2, it's is what we do best. Everyone knows the role well.

I looked at Reid, Holland and Kilbane in midfield doing the job of two men, or rather, doing the job two men could have done. It was a formation where no one really appeared to know what it was.

The great problem was Morrison up front with Duff and Andy Reid trying to feed off him. Reid Holland and Kilbane in midfield were very tight and that was a problem because we never stopped the Italian full backs getting out. More often one ball beat the three midfield players. They were like a daisy chain in the first half, almost like they were holding hands in there.

Then you'd Vieri dropping off the two Irish centre backs and linking everything up for Italy. The centre backs weren't sure whether to come tight to him and in the end nobody was picking up. Ireland had lots of numbers, but no one was picking up. It was a classic case of people knowing they'd numbers in there, but forgetting to pick up and that's what happened.

To be honest about it, if after half an hour it had been 3-0 to Italy nobody could have complained. When players don't pick players up it's like they're not sure of what they are supposed to be doing. That lack of surety then spreads throughout the side.

Obviously, this was a dress rehearsal for the French game next month. If somebody like Zidane is going to get the time and space in behind the midfield players that we gave last night, then Ireland won't be anywhere near them. I know Roy Keane will probably be back and we'll have to assume we cannot play that system.

Hopefully, Kerr will change his mind and say 'this system that I've tried to play was a bit of an experiment and if you seriously think I'm going to play that way against France it will be like Joan Of Arc'. It was that simple.

The other problem was that in the first half when you don't have much of the ball and you're forever chasing ball, you end up playing Hollywood balls all the time.

Poor old Clinton Morrison. They were sticking balls up to him. He's got Nesta and Cannavaro all over him. He couldn't even hold the ball up to get Reid and Duff into the game.

Basically, your two best attackers, Reid and Duff, are completely nullified. And it just spread right through the team. Shay Given made a couple of brilliant saves early on, but you know it's a real worry. I always look at these games and analyse them for the first hour.

As I said, forget the last half an hour when all the best players play. Yes, sure in the last half an hour we had a couple of chances, a couple of saves and Stephen Elliott showed a little bit of promise, but it's after the event. Duff also had a few runs down the left and you could see what he can do.

I'm now looking at the French and hoping that he's going to go 4-4-2. Because, out wide, players will tuck in. They'll defend. I mean, when you play against a team like Italy, you have got to compete in midfield. Pirlo must have thought he was playing on his own pitch. He'd so much time and so much space, it was frightening.

It would have been interesting to have had a microphone at the home of Mr Roy Keane, wouldn't it? It is a long time since an Irish team has been out-played in that sort of way and the thing is that last night we contributed to our own downfall.

[Dotsy]

"Hopefully, Kerr will change his mind and say 'this system that I've tried to play was a bit of an experiment and if you seriously think I'm going to play that way against France it will be like Joan Of Arc'. It was that simple."

Does anybody know WTF he is talking about with the Joan of Arc reference :confused:

[thejollyrodger]

I think she got burnt or something .. i dont exactly konw..



... you end up playing Hollywood balls all the time.

Big Ron eat your heart out :o

[NeilMcD]

I think it was fairly obvious that the irish team was all over the place centrally for the first 30 mins, Holland Reid, Dunne Cunningham and Kilbane did not know where to go on the new system and found it hard to pick up the italian runners. After the Italian 2nd goal we seemed to get going as we scored straight away and then controlled the match for the rest of the game. In my opinion John O Shea had his best game for Ireland in a long time. He has been poor and short of confidence over the last season or 2 but last night he was trying his old tricks going down the wing beating players and he put in a few crunching tackles. He seems to have a bit more agression this season as I noticed that when he played for Man Utd too. I thought he did better than Holland in midfield and he is a very good passer of the ball when he is in the central positions. Dont rule O Shea out as a future replacement for Keane, if Glenn Whelan does not progress like he should.


I thought that Dunne and Cunnigham and Matt Holland lacked match sharpness and were exposed time and time again. O Brien played very well when he came on and he will be a certain starter in September. I thought Andy Reid showed for the ball more than any player last night and some of his passsing was great, but he needs to add a bit more consistancy to this game.

Duff was great going forward when he got the ball, but a few times he passed his man on when there was nobody to pick him up but I think in a competitive game he would have followed him.

Once again Given showed why that, only Czech and Buffon are probably ahead of him in the world when it comes to playing in goals.


Overall a good nights entertainment and it will mean we have a good few things to sort out between now and September. However I think it was a good friendly to have a much better than a simple 1 or 2 nil win against a team not trying to play. The italians really went for it for about 60 minutes.

Overall I think the team for the France game will be

Given

Carr/Finnan
Cunningham
O Brien
O Shea

Andy Reid
Keane
Kilbane
Duff

Keane
Morrisson


The only decision to make for me is at Right back and its a close call.

[brine3]

I'm worried about Kilbane. When he's playing well he's great, but when he's playing bad he's one of the worst players on the planet. Did you see his assist for Italy's first goal? Christ on a bike, he couldn't have placed the ball any better.

Then in the second half he comes out and plays well.

But which Kilbane will show up for the France game? I don't know if it's a risk I'd be willing to take as a manager.

[Stuttgart88]

One of his pet hates is when teams try to use different tactical formations
Yes, as exemplified by the following:

I tried to understand the logic of Brian Kerr and I couldn't do it
Oh come on Mark. Just cos it didn't really work doesn't mean there was no logic in trying it. I could easily see the logic & several others here seem to agree. Fair play Brian Kerr.

I remember when Mick McCarthy first took the job and he experimented with 4-3-3 and 5-3-2. He had a little look at everything, but no. Once we go to 4-4-2, it's is what we do best.
Yeah but that was 9 years ago with totally different players, most of them inexperienced & unsuited to the roles given to them.

Only 11 years ago we beat Italy in a competitive WC Finals match playing a defensive 4-5-1. What does that say?

I agree with his assessment of the midfield 3 though. The most obvious local exponent of the 4-5-1 is Chelsea. A lone frontman struggles to score regularly so the defence must be rock solid. One of the midfield 3 does nothing but hold. The wide men are key (and Duff & Reid both did well yesterday) but so too is having an attacking midfielder to add to the frontman's contribution. We didn't get the midfield balance right last night.

It would have been interesting to have had a microphone at the home of Mr Roy Keane, wouldn't it? It is a long time since an Irish team has been out-played in that sort of way and the thing is that last night we contributed to our own downfall.
Was Roy even weatching? Remember he only "flicked" through the Iran game:) I doubt Roy gives two hoots about last night's result. He knows more than anyone just how irrelevant friendlies are.

[Stuttgart88]

In my opinion John O Shea had his best game for Ireland in a long time. I thought he did better than Holland in midfield and he is a very good passer of the ball when he is in the central positions.

I agree entirely. I thought he looked like the O'Shea of a couple of years ago. Lovely footwork at times.

I hope he keeps his place ahead of Heinze in next 2 weeks because I still have a mistrust of him at left back, especially when he's not playing regularly at club level. I think Kerr will pick him, but on last night's performance the only spots in any doubt are the full-back roles. For what it's worth I thought Harte did well too, poor free kicks aside.

If there are any definitive lessons from yesterday it's that Holland just doesn't bring anything to the party, O'Brien is still a good bit ahead of Dunne, O'Shea and Steven Reid may have more to offer midfield in the nearish future and that Andy Reid must play against France.

[geysir]

Most time I have given Kerr the benifit of doubt.
Even as Lawrenson suggests the possibility that he was trying to purposely pull the wool over the French observers, I would be critical of Kerr's performance last night.
If the players have been training under his supervision over the last days then why would he start with Dunne and Holland, with both players obviously no where near their sharp levels.
I understood that you start with your best 11 or least a fit and sharp 11 even if its a friendly.
As regards the formation, it is late in the day to be trying out a new formation of one up front as your starting point in a home game with 2 big home games on the horizon.
Even if Elliot is not likely to start against the French imo he should have started up front with Morrison, we would not have missed Holland.
When Holland was injured then at least Elliot could have come on.
In theory its fine having Duff on the left wing and expect a supply of crosses and passes, but what do you do when the defence send out another 2 players to stiffle him, at one time there 4 players queueing to dispossess him and no Robbie Keane making runs to deflect.

Previously I thought Ireland would beat the French now it would be a very good result to come back from a goal down and equalize in the second half.

[kkontour]

I agree entirely. I thought he looked like the O'Shea of a couple of years ago.

Im a big fan of O'Shea but he has been poor of late. His passing from full back is terrible. I too thought he played well in midfield, but maybe it was the fact that Holland hid from the game. O'Shea then worked hard in that position and because his passing was short he gave it away less.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think you should necesarily start with your best 11 in a friendly. Sometimes, like in the case of Dunne for example , it's a good idea to plan for the contingency that, say, O'Brien is injured.

I'm not sure how you can expect everyone to be sharp & fit in the middle of August. With the exception of Steven Reid all of our central midfield options have had limited pre-season training or pitch action. Roy Keane was unavailable. So was Kavanagh. Kilbane only came on late against MUFC, Holland didn't play last weekend & it seems Miller last played a full game about 2 years ago. Dunne's injury we all know about, likewise Cunningham's ribs / lung. A match like this is ideal to get everyone match fit.

If this team is to evolve & develop I don't see why it's late in the day to experiment. Friendly matces are exactly the time to experiment.

[tetsujin1979]

Just read football365.com's review of the England game last night. They pointed out that England lost 2-0 to a top class Holland side in August of 2001, the same side who we beat 4 weeks later, so I'm not too disappointed after last night's game, the performance later into the match was heartening, and it's good to know we do have options in all positions, and if nothing else could be taken from the game, we started and finished the game with an entire side of premiership players, it's been a while since that happened!

[Slash/ED]

I'm worried about Kilbane. When he's playing well he's great, but when he's playing bad he's one of the worst players on the planet. Did you see his assist for Italy's first goal? Christ on a bike, he couldn't have placed the ball any better.


Agree. I thought he was poor last night. You're looking for quality at this level and he has none, he was giving away the ball left right and centre and showed no tactical awareness whatsoever. But, he ran around alot, got a few tackles in and gave away a free or two and to some people that's fantastic.

[thejollyrodger]

Agree. I thought he was poor last night. You're looking for quality at this level and he has none, he was giving away the ball left right and centre and showed no tactical awareness whatsoever. But, he ran around alot, got a few tackles in and gave away a free or two and to some people that's fantastic.

I think Josh has far better technical ability than killer and I long for the day where Josh plays like he did in the first half. It would start to solve a lot of problems in the Irish setup.

[Schumi]

The defeat doesn't really worry me. The 4-3-3 formation doesn't really suit the players we have and Morrison was left too isolated (still a worthwhile exercise to look at it though) and presumably we'll play 4-4-2 against France and do better. Left-back is a problem though. Neither Harte nor O'Shea looked comfortable. Harte diving in by the East touchline was unbelievable from an international defender, he didn't get near the ball and had the Italian not jumped over him, Harte would been off. I'd agree with the people above who want Finnan (who had a good game I thought) at left back but I don't think it will happen.

[tiktok]

Can't believe how positive everyone is about last night.

We were completely outclassed.
We've got gaps at left back, right wing and central midfield, thanks to Kerr's insistence on holding on for dear life to his 'record' we've seen no plan B in his time as manager and scant few players have been properly blooded should we require them.

What other team would hold the ball up in the corner from a set-piece in a friendly (against Portugal) with ten minutes to go just to protect a meaningless 1-0 lead.

He played 4-5-1 at home in a friendly ffs.

A couple of injuries between now and the French match and we'll be relying on a few bit part players with a handful of caps to get us through our biggest game in years, because Kerr hasn't the balls to give a player like Stephen Elliot a run out in a fcuking friendly.

Oh and for what was a relatively entertaining game, the 'crowd' were once again a complete joke. The half time penalties got more cheers than the team you were there to see.

another thoroughly depressing Landsdowne outing.

[thejollyrodger]

in fairness it was 4-3-3 and italy were really looking for a win while we never really had our eye on this game. It was all about France and we had our 2 best players missing. I think we did alright considering.

[Slash/ED]

Can't believe how positive everyone is about last night.

We were completely outclassed.
We've got gaps at left back, right wing and central midfield, thanks to Kerr's insistence on holding on for dear life to his 'record' we've seen no plan B in his time as manager and scant few players have been properly blooded should we require them.

What other team would hold the ball up in the corner from a set-piece in a friendly (against Portugal) with ten minutes to go just to protect a meaningless 1-0 lead.

He played 4-5-1 at home in a friendly ffs.

A couple of injuries between now and the French match and we'll be relying on a few bit part players with a handful of caps to get us through our biggest game in years, because Kerr hasn't the balls to give a player like Stephen Elliot a run out in a fcuking friendly.

Oh and for what was a relatively entertaining game, the 'crowd' were once again a complete joke. The half time penalties got more cheers than the team you were there to see.

another thoroughly depressing Landsdowne outing.

Agree 100%. Kerrs treating of international friendlys as competitive games is a complete joke especially when our opponents do not. Elliot is one for the future, hence you play him in a friendly. That's the bloody point of them! Gaurentee you now if Keane is injured in any game Kerr will say Elliot hasn't the experience to play international football.

It's the most frustrating element of the Kerr era. I didn't go last night to see us try and battle against an Italian side making four subs at half time and more worried about future games as their manager knows how to treat friendlys, I wanted to see the likes of Elliot and other players for the future. Finnan at left back should have been given 90 minutes. The way he treats these are a joke.

[Krstic]

Did'nt realise there where points at stake in last nights game with Italy.

The headline on Soccercentral is 'Ireland denied a point against Italy' :eek:

[wallis]

I cant understand the last couple of posts criticising the gameplan.

Kerr played 4-5-1 as an experiment to see how we could cope. If you play 4-5-1 then logically only one player can go up front so he cant play Morrison AND Elliot ? Thats what friendlies are for..changing teams and tactics. He moved JOS to centre mid rather than bring on another midfielder to see how JOS would cope in that system.

"finnan should have played 90 minutes" - yes, Im sure Rafa Benitez spoke to Kerr and said 'listen I know he has already played 7 competitive matches in four weeks -dont worry about it , give him another 90." - do me a favour !

We had a number of players out there last night who may not play again before France because of their club situations (Clinton, Miller, S Reid, Harte, ) so they have to take preference over players like Elliot who will play.

Im sure Kerr would have brought Elliot on if he could but I would think his main aim was to allow Morrison as much time as possible in the hope he would get a goal. If CM doesnt get a transfer in the next week that could be his last competitive game before France. We already know what Elliot is capable off and he needs no help with his confidence but I think if he had brought CM off for Elliot, Clinton would have been really disappointed.

We tried a system , it didnt work too well but we learn from the mistakes (expecially at the back). But there were a lot of positives in the performances of Given/Kilbane/Morrison/Elliots 15 mins/JOS/Duff/OBrien

[tiktok]

in fairness it was 4-3-3.
In fairness, it was 451. Clinton was a lone striker and the only player to get up to him consistently was Kilbane, that's not a 433 formation, regardless of what Kerr says.


italy were really looking for a win while we never really had our eye on this game.
then Kerr's preparation wasn't good enough. The Italians were playing for places, John O'Shea doesn't have to. Because of Kerr's lack of balls, he now has no other options for France.


we had our 2 best players missing.
Robbie Keane is nowhere near our top 2 players.


We had a number of players out there last night who may not play again before France because of their club situations (Clinton, Miller, S Reid, Harte, ) so they have to take preference over players like Elliot who will play.

Fair point, but at the same time, if Robbie Keane gets injured Kerr will now be forced to play either 451 again or Morrison and Doherty/Duff up front because Elliot hasn't been properly blooded. He's been making a balls of friendlies since day 1, this isn't all a reaction to just last night, but last night was a good opportunity to look at Elliott against a physically strong defence, which IMO is a better idea than fcuking around with your formation and having your team unsettled by it in the game immediately before the France one.

There's been plenty of Friendlies where he could have tried this out if he hadn't been obsessed with protecting 1-0 friendly leads, if as you say certain players may not feature again, then wouldn't it make more sense to play them in the roles they'd most likely play in against france,

e.g. play Elliott up front instead of robbie with Clinton

[Stuttgart88]

I thought we had a look at Elliott against China and the Faroes, as well as Croatia, although he was out of position then (of which I remain critical). We also saw how Elliott changed things last night. I still think Eliott should have come on at home to Israel but I think Kerr WILL use Elliott against France if either of Clinton or Robbie is injured.

What did we learn last night? That if Robbie is injured then Clinton and Elliott in a 4-4-2 is better than Clinton alone in a 4-5-1. That's pretty important in my view.

If Kerr were to opt for Duff upfront with Robbie out then he should be sacked.


For the most part I'd agree that we haven't used previous friendlies to full effect but I can't criticise Kerr for what he did last night. Quite the opposite, I applaud it.

I think saying Robbie is nowhere near our two best playes is churlish. Duff & Given are our two best in my opinion but Robbie is very close, along with Roy Keane, Finnan & Cunningham.

[John83]

I am afraid I only caught it halfway through but he seemed very relaxed
and jovial, there was quite lot a laughter from the the journalists, unfortunately I missed exactly why. They went on to ask him if he was
willing to take a pay cut (which he took quite well), can't remember what
he replied to that either :rolleyes:
My memory must be going :eek:
He said something like "Em, I don't know - I wear a lot of diamonds." :cool: Clinton man has a second career in comedy if he doesn't make enough diamonds while still footballing.



I agree with his assessment of the midfield 3 though. The most obvious local exponent of the 4-5-1 is Chelsea. A lone frontman struggles to score regularly so the defence must be rock solid. One of the midfield 3 does nothing but hold. The wide men are key (and Duff & Reid both did well yesterday) but so too is having an attacking midfielder to add to the frontman's contribution. We didn't get the midfield balance right last night.
The difference here is that we don't have a player capable of doing what Lampard does for Chelsea, Scholes used to for Man Utd or Cahill does for Everton. As for needing a pure defensive mid, I would suggest that Keane can do just that. Furthermore, he often gets an extra body in midfield in Man Utd's CL games now, so he'd be a lot more familiar with that game than the people there yesterday. I thought O'Shea and Stephen Reid did well in midfield, and I wouldn't be distraught to see that lineup against France should Robbie or Clinton be injured (touch wood).

[geysir]

I thought we had a look at Elliott against China and the Faroes, as well as Croatia, although he was out of position then (of which I remain critical). We also saw how Elliott changed things last night. I still think Eliott should have come on at home to Israel but I think Kerr WILL use Elliott against France if either of Clinton or Robbie is injured.

What did we learn last night? That if Robbie is injured then Clinton and Elliott in a 4-4-2 is better than Clinton alone in a 4-5-1. That's pretty important in my view.

If Kerr were to opt for Duff upfront with Robbie out then he should be sacked.

For the most part I'd agree that we haven't used previous friendlies to full effect but I can't criticise Kerr for what he did last night. Quite the opposite, I applaud it.
.

Yes there is a possibility that either morrison or robbie could be injured and the Q is, one up front or bring on Elliot to partner the healthy striker.

Then Kerr must have very very serious doubts about Elliot playing any role against the French or Swiss even if Keane or Morrison get injured.
I would have thought that yes Elliot was good enough
and I would have thought that if we have to use Elliot in the near future then his game would have benifited from an 80 minute run out against the Defense Kings.

[thejollyrodger]

In fairness, it was 451. Clinton was a lone striker and the only player to get up to him consistently was Kilbane, that's not a 433 formation, regardless of what Kerr says.


It was 4-3-3. Its just that we were caught confused as to where to play. 4-3-3 has been tried before and this is just another go at it.



then Kerr's preparation wasn't good enough. The Italians were playing for places, John O'Shea doesn't have to. Because of Kerr's lack of balls, he now has no other options for France.

I disagree. I think Kerr did prepare very well considering half the team hadnt much of a clue about 4-3-3. Only Josh, Duff and ? have played it. Im glad we lost, we were getting to comfortable winning/drawing all the time. It was a good wake up call for France. We have a small squad but everyone will be motivated for the game.



Robbie Keane is nowhere near our top 2 players.


Robbie does looks like he should be put back in the school yard but that doesnt mean he isnt our best striker of all time. He will get goals for us and if not then he will take defenders away from clint. Him and Duff are a necessity for Ireland.

[Colbert Report]

Elliott should have played, if not the whole match, then at least the second half. We simply don't have any other strikers other than Robbie Keane, Clinton Morrison and Stephen Elliott. It would be different if he was behind Aldridge, Cascarino, Coyne, Quinn, etc but he's not.

[eirebhoy]

A compilation of Duff's 1st half contribution:
http://s5.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=02Z9LW77YRSLN2KPKKAYBZAVRP

Too lazy to do the full match. Any request from the match let me know before I delete it. :)

[Stuttgart88]

The difference here is that we don't have a player capable of doing what Lampard does for Chelsea, Scholes used to for Man Utd or Cahill does for Everton.
Agree entirely John, it's actually what I was trying to say, but you put it better. It's a pity because it's the type of role I expected Miller to develop into a couple of years ago. Now it seems the memory of those wonderful goals, arriving late from midfield, against Lyon & Anderlecht was just some acid inspired hallucination? :(

Perhaps Kavanagh's ball playing skills would come somewhere close to getting that formation right. Keane as holder, Kilbane as, well Kilbane, and Kav in a more attacking role.

[tiktok]

What did we learn last night? That if Robbie is injured then Clinton and Elliott in a 4-4-2 is better than Clinton alone in a 4-5-1. That's pretty important in my view.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but I already knew this was the case, we learned it harshly against Israel, you admit you knew it, Kerr definitely should have.It was a waste of eighty-ish minutes


I think saying Robbie is nowhere near our two best playes is churlish. Duff & Given are our two best in my opinion but Robbie is very close, along with Roy Keane, Finnan & Cunningham.
There's no doubt Robbie is talented, but IMO there's more than those five players ahead of him in terms of his contribution in matches. While I always think he should be starting, it's only because he's the only natural goalscorer we have, I think in general he's a lazy whiny primadonna who hasn't improved since he first broke into the international side.


It was 4-3-3. Its just that we were caught confused as to where to play.
Which is why we ended up playing 4-5-1.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well in the first half.... the midfield did not channel back to help out at the back which is why we were overrun. The Italians could easily have been 4 or 5 up by half-time. Thankfully Shay Given had an inspired game.

The second half they made changes and Ireland came more into the game.And had a few more chances and were unlucky that Clinton's goal was disallowed.

[thejollyrodger]

Which is why we ended up playing 4-5-1.

If it was 4-5-1 the italians wouldnt have been running through the midfield like that. 4-5-1 is extremely hard to break down. It was 4-3-3

[tiktok]

If it was 4-5-1 the italians wouldnt have been running through the midfield like that. 4-5-1 is extremely hard to break down. It was 4-3-3

4-5-1 is hard to break down only if it's done properly.

They ran through the midfield so easily because Duff, Reid, Reid and Holland weren't arsed to tackle. They were all in midfield; they just weren't interested in defending.

Maybe Kerr intended it to be 4-3-3, but the team on the pitch certainly weren't playing 4-3-3, whether that was through lack of preparation, application or communication I don't know. What I do know is what formation I and those around me saw and discussed.

[thejollyrodger]

im not being funny but it was 4-3-3. Thats what kerr sent them out doing, he tried it before against Croatia or someone. It wasnt 4-5-1 end of story.

[geysir]

Well in the first half.... the midfield did not channel back to help out at the back which is why we were overrun. The Italians could easily have been 4 or 5 up by half-time. Thankfully Shay Given had an inspired game.

His first right handed save from Vieri where he scooped it towards Dunne and then out for a corner is an absolute classic.
It did frustrate me when he decided to take a first touch on an expected safe enough pass back to him with attacking players some 16m away and closing in on him. Then he looked up to see who is available and by the time he went to hit it he was closed down by an attacker. This is what happenned in the build up to the second goal, his clearance wasn't a pass nor did it find touch. Italy got the ball back in immediately, the defense was at 6's and 7's, despite a great effort by Given the 2nd goal was scored.
A few minutes later, similar pass back on the other side, attacker goes to close down but this time (the inspired) Shay whacks it out first time, safely into touch.

[Condex]

For much of the Italian game we were all over the shop, the players didn't seem to know what their roles were. We conceed goals far to easily and could have ended up getting a hammering.

Kerr has a very poor record when it comes to competitive matches and I personally don't think he has a clue about senior international management, even with the two Keanes back I don't think we have much chance of beating the French.