Warrenpoint & PIL Restructure

[JC_GUFC]

So following on from the Warrenpoint saga - although they lost their appeal - in some ways they won (or at least punishment wasn't as severe) as they are now just being relegated to the Premier Intermediate League (i.e. just being relegated one division) rather than out of the NIFL structures altogether.

The club seems to be reasonably well run (despite their tax issue!) so you'd expect them to be challenging for promotion back to the Championship right away.

This has led to the following changes for playoffs etc.

Premiership/Championship Dungannon v Annagh

Championship/PiL Ballymacash v Knockbreda (Knockbreda saved from automatic relegation and Institute safe in Championship)

I also saw talk that the PiL would be expanded and instead of PSNI going into a playoff that two teams would join to bring it to 14 teams - I guess this would be if there was to be any legal challenge from PSNI saying that Warrenpoint should have been expelled altogether.

If this is the case where do those teams come from?

Going off Wikipedia it seems like it would be two from the winners of the Ballymena & Provincial League, Mid-Ulster Football League, Northern Amateur League & Northern Ireland Intermediate League.

In Ballymena & Provincial it's looking like Coagh or Donegal Celtic. Crewe United look to have all but wrapped up the Mid Ulster League. As has been mentioned on another thread the Northern Amateur League has been won by Rathfriland Rangers and Newbuildings United appear to have won the Northern Ireland Intermediate League.

I don't know would these sides playoff or would some of them not meet the required standard of PiL membership.

[nigel-harps1954]

Not sure what the requirements are for promotion, but far as I know, Newbuildings ground is just a pitch with a fence around it at a community centre just outside Derry.

I don't think many of the NI Intermediate League clubs are setup for promotion, in terms of facilities, bar maybe Strabane Athletic.

[JC_GUFC]

I presume these are in effect 4 "Regional" leagues.

Looking at the teams in that NI Intermediate League they just seem to be Northwest clubs. The Mid-Ulster League seems to be... well teams from Mid-Ulster... around Portadown and Craigavon. The Amateur League seems to have some Belfast clubs and those to the east - Larne, Newtonards etc. then the Ballymena league also appears to have Belfast clubs (obviously DC are Belfast) along with those to the north of the province.

[EalingGreen]

In Ballymena & Provincial it's looking like Coagh or Donegal Celtic. Crewe United look to have all but wrapped up the Mid Ulster League. As has been mentioned on another thread the Northern Amateur League has been won by Rathfriland Rangers and Newbuildings United appear to have won the Northern Ireland Intermediate League.I'm pretty sure Coagh have now won their league (website not yet updated?), along with Rathfriland and Crewe Utd in their respectful leagues. Neither Newbuildings or any other NI Intermediate League team will be eligible/in contention for a promotion to the PIL.

Meaning it's looking like a 3-way play-off between the other three for a place in the PIL, which would then increase to 14 teams to accommodate Warrenpoint dropping down and a reprieve from relegation for PSNI.

Though none of this looks to have been confirmed officially as yet, rather it seems to be coming from leaks to the news media etc.

EDIT: A recent game between Bourneview and Crewe had to be abandoned after 83 mins (injured player), with Bourneview leading 3-2. In those circumstances, it looks as if rules say that the result stands should a game have passed the 60 minute mark. If that is so, then those dropped points for Crewe would mean Oxford would still have enough games to to catch Crewe on GD, meaning Crewe's participation in the 3-team play-off is not yet certain. I think.
Meanwhile, the only NI Intermediate team who could have qualified for a licence to play in the PIL were Maiden City, but they failed to win their league.

[JC_GUFC]

Thanks EG - so just for clarity these are effectively the 4 Divisions below the PIL and somewhat regional (as I've outlined above).

This is very much going into that other discussion about the Pyramid system!

[EalingGreen]

Thanks EG - so just for clarity these are effectively the 4 Divisions below the PIL and somewhat regional (as I've outlined above).Yes, though with only 7 teams, the NI Intermediate League (Derry and NW) is currently very much the poor relation of the four.


This is very much going into that other discussion about the Pyramid system!Indeed, but I'll say nothing about that on this thread (Everyone stop cheering so loudly!), other than to leave you this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_football_league_system
(Specific details such as league numbers aren't reliable/up-to-date, but the broader picture re structure is still ok)

[JC_GUFC]

So Dungannon beat Annagh in the Promotion Relegation playoff so next season in the Prem it's just Loughgall replacing Portadown.

In the Championship relegation playoff Knockbreda beat Ballymacash, so the Championship have lost Loughgall (promoted) and Warrenpoint (demoted) and gained Portadown and Bangor (promoted from PiL).

In the Premier Intermediate League they have gained Warrenpoint while Bangor were promoted. It will be expanded to 14 teams because of the Warrenpoint situation - so PSNI have been saved relegation and there is a 3-way playoff on going between 3 of the 4 winners of the 4 regional intermediate leagues. Newbuildings United, champions of the NI Intermediate League weren't eligible for promotion. So Rathfriland Rangers (champions of the Northern Amateur League), Coagh United (champions of the Ballymena & Provincial League) and Oxford Sunnyside (champions of the Mid Ulster League) will play a round robin tournament with the top 2 promoted to the PiL.

Rathfriland Rangers 3 Coagh United 0

Tonight: Oxford Sunnyside v Rathfriland Rangers

Monday: Coagh United v Oxford Sunnyside

[JC_GUFC]

I was VERY bored in work today and looked at the representatives by county in the top 3 tiers...

If Coagh United get promoted they'd only be the third team from Tyrone in the top 3 tiers (Dungannon & Dergview being the other two). I know GAA is pretty strong in Tyrone and a lot of it is rural but towns like Strabane and Omagh surely could sustain a club. I'm struggling to even find what level the best team in Omagh plays at!

So I've looked at the 6 Northern counties and Belfast

Antrim: 6 clubs (3 Prem, 1 Champ, 2 PiL)
Armagh: 5 clubs (2 Prem, 2 Champ, 1 PiL)
Belfast: 10 clubs (4 Prem, 4 Champ, 2 PiL)
Derry: 6 clubs (1 Prem, 1 Champ, 4 PiL)
Down: 6 clubs (1 Prem, 2 Champ, 3 PiL)
Fermanagh: 1 club (1 Champ)
Tyrone: 2 clubs (1 Prem, 1 Champ)


Rathfriland are Down, Oxford Sunnyside are from Armagh and Coagh from Tyrone.

I think bar Tyrone that's kind of an accurate split population-wise (excluding Derry City from Derry), maybe you'd get another Fermanagh team.

I don't really know if this proved anything to me other than what county Moyola Park and Tobermore United played in! :D

[Martinho II]

I remember Julian not that long ago that Omagh Town used to be in the NI league. cant remember exact reason could be bankruptcy or year!

[nigel-harps1954]

There's no interest for a football team in Omagh. The long and short of it really. They were awfully badly supported when they were in the league.

[JC_GUFC]

I remember Julian not that long ago that Omagh Town used to be in the NI league. cant remember exact reason could be bankruptcy or year!

Omagh left the league and folded after relegation of the 2004/05 season. They had a fundraiser game against Man U in 1999 and I think there may have been some questions around where some of the money from that game went so they possibly lost a lot of support from the town on the back of that.

It looks like a club called Omagh United was formed in 2007 but then folded in 2010. It seems they got promoted a couple of years in a row up to the equivalent of Premier Intermediate League now.

Now it seems a club called Strathroy Harps are the main club in Omagh. They play in the Fermanagh & Western League.

It's not like other NI clubs have huge support so surely just because of it being a population centre they'd have enough players to have a half decent team.

[EalingGreen]

So Rathfriland Rangers (champions of the Northern Amateur League), Coagh United (champions of the Ballymena & Provincial League) and Oxford Sunnyside (champions of the Mid Ulster League) will play a round robin tournament with the top 2 promoted to the PiL.

Rathfriland Rangers 3 Coagh United 0

Tonight: Oxford Sunnyside v Rathfriland Rangers

Monday: Coagh United v Oxford SunnysideRathfriland beat Oxford S (Lurgan team) 2-1 last night, to seal promotion. And with GD now counting in their favour, Oxford only need a draw at Coagh on Monday to go up, while Coagh need to win (obv).

[EalingGreen]

If Coagh United get promoted they'd only be the third team from Tyrone in the top 3 tiers (Dungannon & Dergview being the other two). I know GAA is pretty strong in Tyrone and a lot of it is rural but towns like Strabane and Omagh surely could sustain a club. I'm struggling to even find what level the best team in Omagh plays at!
You might think that Omagh (pop.20k) could support a Senior/IL team, but as others have noted, it has never really been a traditional football town. This is despite actually having had an IL team for a period, but in truth, it had always struggled. And it wasn't just in terms of supporters through the turnstiles, few though they were, but also in terms of administrators and volunteers etc. Worse still their (ahem) bookkeeping wasn't always of the highest order, as others have alluded to. :eek:

It is the same with Strabane. For although Athletic are doing quite well at Intermediate level at the moment, there has never been a strong footballing tradition in the town. This is in contrast eg to Dungannon, a town of 15k. Both GAA and Rugby have always been prominent there due, I expect, to the presence of St.Patricks Academy and the Royal School respectively as "feeders". Yet the town also manages to support a Senior football club, Swifts, which holds its own at that level. Youth football is also especially strong in Dungannon, much of it due to the sterling efforts of Joe & Carol McAree, and latterly their son Rodney, just appointed manager of Swifts:
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/footballsoccer/2022/04/23/news/joe-mcaree-a-living-legend-with-dungannon-united-youth-and-the-swifts-2650194/

More widely, Omagh and Strabane stand in contrast to other border, Nationalist-majority towns like Derry and Newry, both of which have long had strong footballing traditions. While Castlederg, a reasonably mixed border town of just 3k, has always had a reasonably strong presence in the game, too. And it's the same on "the other side of the divide", where for whatever reason, Unionist-majority towns in more central locations like eg Banbridge and Antrim have no great tradition of Senior football either.

Otoh, Enniskillen, with a small Nationalist majority in its 15k population, might seem to be another footballing backwater, since it has never supported a Senior club. But the problem there is not a lack of interest in the game. On the contrary, the town actually has six separate Junior football clubs, all of whom fight like crazy to be "Top Dog" in the Fermanagh & Western League. (By contrast, Enniskillen only has one GAA club and one Rugby club, despite the presence of two strong boys' grammar schools, St Michaels/GAA and Portora/Rugby.). Should any of them ever emerge from out of the crowd, I have no doubt the town could support Senior football, but sadly there is no real sign of it happening.

All of which, I think, supports my theory that if you want to develop the game, you need to start where football is already strong and buiild outwards, rather than just landing on some new spot which has never had much interest in the game and trying to helicopter in a big, new club from scratch.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how Rathfriland and Warrenpoint get on next season flying the flag for football in South Down in the Premier Intermediate League, goodness knows the league could do with a boost.

[Buller]

Interesting thanks for that EG! Always wondered what the story was with some of those decent sized towns. Hopefully one day they'll have proper senior team set ups.

[nigel-harps1954]

Au contraire, in regards Strabane, I'd argue it's a potentially big football hotbed, and were Athletic ever to get up the ladder a bit, I'd say they'd attract a decent bit of support. There's a large support for Harps and Derry around Strabane, and I'd wager a lot of that would poke their nose in on a Saturday afternoon to watch a Strabane side at senior level if they get that far.

[EalingGreen]

Au contraire, in regards Strabane, I'd argue it's a potentially big football hotbed, and were Athletic ever to get up the ladder a bit, I'd say they'd attract a decent bit of support.The key words being "potentially", "were" and "ever". I mean, there are a number of other towns, North and South, about which you could say exactly the same, yet they have never sustained a Senior club, and maybe never will. You have to ask why this should be so, or how are Strabane any different.


There's a large support for Harps and Derry around Strabane, and I'd wager a lot of that would poke their nose in on a Saturday afternoon to watch a Strabane side at senior level if they get that far.No doubt, but there's FAR more to establishing a club in Senior football over the long term than that. For example, you need volunteers and solid "club men" (and women!) to keep pushing the club forward, even (esp?) when results on the field are going against you.

You need financial backing, ideally of the sort provided eg by Bruce/Larne, Fisher/Ballinamallard, Gray & McGreevy/Warrenpoint or O'Doherty/DCFC.

Alternatively, you need other sources of income, such as a Social Club (quite common in NI), plus solid backing from the local business community, for sponsorship and corporate etc.

Above all, you need physical resources - stadium, training ground etc - to provide collateral for the investment and borrowing needed to grow and sustain a club. etc. (See eg the amazing work of the McArees at Dungannon in that link I provided earlier).

So that while I have absolutely nothing against Strabane Athletic, indeed would wish them well, so long as they are operating out of a Council Leisure Centre, I really cannot see them unlocking whatever potential a GAA town of 15k population may have any time soon.

P.S. You are doubtless more familiar with Strabane than me, and I respect that. But quite honestly, there are another 8 or 10 comparable towns (minimum) in NI who have the same potential, in theory at least. Yet I don't see any of them energing any time soon, either. And that's despite the fact that Senior and Intermediate football in NI generally has been on a decided, if modest, growth pattern over the last decade or two.

[nigel-harps1954]

Strabane Athletic have plans submitted, this last two years or so, for a major facility development that would be as good as anything on the island, to be fair to them.

[EalingGreen]

Strabane Athletic have plans submitted, this last two years or so, for a major facility development that would be as good as anything on the island, to be fair to them.Aye, certainly looks good.

Except that the plans were called in by the Department of Infrastructure in February last year:
“The call-in direction issued to Derry City and Strabane District Council on January 5, 2022 and the planning application file was subsequently received by the department on January 14, 2022," a DfI spokesperson said.

"The department gave the direction in view of the proposed developments potential conflict with the local development plan for the area (Strabane Area Plan 1986-2001), the effective implementation of the plan led system and regional planning policy which is contained within the Strategic Planning Policy Statement and PPS 3.

"It is considered that the regional and sub regional issues would, therefore, benefit from further scrutiny by the department."

I'm not sure what the problem was, but it seems to be something to do with access from the Bypass round the town?

[EalingGreen]

Re Strabane Athletic, otoh they've appointed Raymond Foy as their new manager, in succession to Rory Patterson:
https://twitter.com/strabaneafc/status/1659453490932883456?cxt=HHwWgICxhY2KyIcuAAAA

Oto, the Northern Ireland Intermediate League could be in jeopardy, since it is thought Newtowne are rejoining the Ballymena Intermediate league next season, with rumours that Newbuildings may join them. While it seems Dungiven Celtic may be dropping down to Junior football.

Dunno where that would leave the remaining few stalwarts - Strabane Ath, Maiden City, Trojans and Ardstraw?

[joey B]

I read somewhere that the USL and the Intermediate League were to have a meeting in relation to some kind of merger,the USL is done and they we’re looking for an alternative,
I’m pretty sure the meeting came to nothing though and the clubs are going go back into to the Donegal and Inishowen leagues….

[EalingGreen]

I read somewhere that the USL and the Intermediate League were to have a meeting in relation to some kind of merger,the USL is done and they we’re looking for an alternative,
I’m pretty sure the meeting came to nothing though and the clubs are going go back into to the Donegal and Inishowen leagues….From another forum: "They wouldn't be allowed to play a league between the 2 jurisdictions, the very most they could play would be a non affiliated cup/"
I'm no expert (understatement!), but I'd say that is correct.

Even in the case of individual clubs seeking to play in another country/jurisdiction, there needs to be a pressing need, or historical precedent, before the respective Associations and FIFA/UEFA would consider it.

While cross-border competitions between teams from different leagues may be permitted (eg Setanta, Baltic, Scandinavian Royal League), an actual merged league throws up much greater issues - see eg UEFA's absolute opposition to the European Super League.

[EalingGreen]

Tyrone side Coagh United FC this evening became the 14th team in the expanded Premier Intermediate League (NIFL third tier), after a last-minute 1-0 victory over Lurgan club Oxford Sunnyside FC.

A draw would have sufficed for Oxford to go up instead of Coagh.

[nigel-harps1954]

The former club of current NI Stuart Dallas, as google informs me. Can't say I've ever been, but Coagh is a tiny village, and there's not much to their ground!

[EalingGreen]

The former club of current NI Stuart Dallas, as google informs me. Can't say I've ever been, but Coagh is a tiny village, and there's not much to their ground!All very true no doubt, but I'd guess the club should be reasonably competitive, and the ground adequate, for third tier football?

I think (unsure?) they've been there before, so we'll see how it turns out this time.

[JC_GUFC]

Is there any restriction from getting promoted from PiL to Championship in terms of the facilities?

I think most of the PiL teams have played at a higher level at some time so I guess the only issue would be promotion to Premiership, like Loughgall have faced.

[EalingGreen]

Is there any restriction from getting promoted from PiL to Championship in terms of the facilities?I believe there is, but don't quote me on that. With respect to the Warrenpoint fiasco, it appears that in order to qualify for promotion, PIL clubs need a Championship licence by the start of their second season at the higher level.

EDIT: On reflection, I think the Licence for PIL teams may be the same as for the Championship, it's just that teams getting promoted to the PIL from the fourth tier are permitted one season before they have to meet the requirements for a PIL/Championship Licence?


I think most of the PiL teams have played at a higher level at some time so I guess the only issue would be promotion to Premiership, like Loughgall have faced.Except that standards have been increased over time, meaning that grounds which might have passed at a higher level a decade or two ago, may not now be deemed suitable.

Overall, though, it has to be a balance between raising standards i.e. can't let just any old team in with a pitch in a farmer's field with a rope round it; and being realistic i.e. Scottish football's former requirement for all-seater stadia with a minimum 10k capacity, even for teams which hardly ever needed it.

Also, you need to be flexible regarding timetables. That is, don't necessarily require strict adherence from Day One in the new, higher level, then find the team is relegated again after a season or two.

[EalingGreen]

Oto, the Northern Ireland Intermediate League could be in jeopardy, since it is thought Newtowne are rejoining the Ballymena Intermediate league next season, with rumours that Newbuildings may join them. While it seems Dungiven Celtic may be dropping down to Junior football.

Dunno where that would leave the remaining few stalwarts - Strabane Ath, Maiden City, Trojans and Ardstraw?Apparently Strabane Ath. today confirmed that they have been accepted into the Ballymena Provincial League.

While I believe Trojans have reverted to Junior football, joining the NW Junior League.

Not sure about Ardstraw or Maiden City, but that seems to be the end of the NI Intermediate League?

[nigel-harps1954]

By all accounts the NI Intermediate League is gone. There was chat of a non-affiliated league between some USL sides and NI Intermediate League teams but I'm not sure that's of benefit to anyone.

[JC_GUFC]

By all accounts the NI Intermediate League is gone. There was chat of a non-affiliated league between some USL sides and NI Intermediate League teams but I'm not sure that's of benefit to anyone.

If it's non-affiliated you'd imagine it would run into some issues at some stage. For geographical reasons I could see why Inishowen/Derry/Strabane etc. would join together but it would be some can of worms to open!

[EalingGreen]

So Dungannon beat Annagh in the Promotion Relegation playoff so next season in the Prem it's just Loughgall replacing Portadown.Correct. And despite being a village of fewer than 300 people(!), Loughgall have made an encouraging start to the Premiership, both results and crowds:
Fri.11/08 Loughgall 3 v 2 Coleraine (Att.910)
Tue.15/08 Loughgall 0 v 1 Glentoran (1,050)
Fri.25/08 Loughgall 2 v 2 Glenavon (1,020)
Sat.23/09 Loughgall 0 v 2 Linfield (1,555)
Tue.26/09 Loughgall 1 v 0 Larne (TBA)

Add in 2 Wins, 1 Draw and 1 Loss in Away games, and after 9 games they have 14 points, leaving them in 6th place (of 12) in the table:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premiership/2023-2024/standings/

Of course after the novelty has worn off, and should results also tail away, they may not sustain this progress even for this season, never mind beyond. But still, and I'm not trying to have a dig* when I say this, there must be loads of Loughgalls (or bigger) in ROI, who could make a similar contribution to the LOI First Division at least, but will never do so so long as you lack a pyramid.

* - Well maybe just a little bit :wink:


In the Championship relegation playoff Knockbreda beat Ballymacash, so the Championship have lost Loughgall (promoted) and Warrenpoint (demoted) and gained Portadown and Bangor (promoted from PiL).After a poor start Portadown, who were expected to "walk" the Division, have begun to find some form and currently lie 2nd with 15 points from 8 games, leaving them 3 points behind (surprise?) leaders Newington, who've Won 6 and Lost 2.
While Bangor, who were also favoured this season, have recovered from a slow start to lie 5th, with 14 points from 8 games.
As for Knockbreda, last season's relegation play-off victory merely seems to have delayed the inevitable: plumb bottom of the table, with zero points after 8 games and a GD of -18:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/championship/2023-2024/standings/



In the Premier Intermediate League they have gained Warrenpoint while Bangor were promoted. It will be expanded to 14 teams because of the Warrenpoint situation - so PSNI have been saved relegation and there is a 3-way playoff on going between 3 of the 4 winners of the 4 regional intermediate leagues. Newbuildings United, champions of the NI Intermediate League weren't eligible for promotion. So Rathfriland Rangers (champions of the Northern Amateur League), Coagh United (champions of the Ballymena & Provincial League) and Oxford Sunnyside (champions of the Mid Ulster League) will play a round robin tournament with the top 2 promoted to the PiL.
The PIL has finally got under way, after a series of shenanigans involving Disputes and Appeals etc threatened to run beyond the scheduled season commencement before being settled, leading to an expanded PIL of 14 teams, which found a home for Warrenpoint, preserved PSNI from relegation and (eventually) saw Coagh United and Rathriland Rangers promoted to the division.
With the season not starting until 26 August, and Intermediate and other regional Cup games taking priority over league fixtures, some teams have played only two league matches, others three, meaning it's too early to assess which way that division may be going, though Limavady have made a strong start:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/premier-intermediate/2023-2024/standings/

[ifk101]

Correct. And despite being a village of fewer than 300 people(!), Loughgall ......

Of course after the novelty has worn off, and should results also tail away, they may not sustain this progress even for this season, never mind beyond. But still, and I'm not trying to have a dig* when I say this, there must be loads of Loughgalls (or bigger) in ROI, who could make a similar contribution to the LOI First Division at least, but will never do so so long as you lack a pyramid.

* - Well maybe just a little bit :wink:

Sure. But no harm to mention the rural location of some LOI grounds. For example, Wexford's ground is rural and a good distance outside Wexford town. Loughgall's ground is located in the 300 person village? and close to two population centers in Armagh and Portadown. Presumably Loughgall is pulling some home support from Armagh/ Portadown, and perhaps tourists add some juice to their attendance numbers as well?

But agree a pyramid system would be preferable. And who knows, if the IFA hadn't taken 130 odd years to implement a pyramid maybe there's no FAI.

[EalingGreen]

Sure. But no harm to mention the rural location of some LOI grounds. For example, Wexford's ground is rural and a good distance outside Wexford town. Loughgall's ground is located in the 300 person village? Lakeview Park is actually just outside the village, kinda - nowhere is very far from the village centre!
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Loughgall+Football+Club/@54.4065638,-6.6108771,478m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4860ed40aa6de775:0x7d40a 883f6c273a8!8m2!3d54.4070163!4d-6.6118471!16s%2Fg%2F1vqmhsh3?hl=en&entry=ttu
Looks to be a good wee set-up, what with the adjacent training centre and social club etc.


... and close to two population centers in Armagh and Portadown. Presumably Loughgall is pulling some home support from Armagh/ Portadown, and perhaps tourists add some juice to their attendance numbers as well? Armagh already has a Premier Intermediate club, which has previously been as high as the top tier. While Portadown currently has two teams in the Championship, Ports and Annagh, while Dungannon Swifts are only 10 miles away, with Lurgan/Glenavon not much more. Meaning that while there are nearby population centres, each is already well served by their own clubs.

Of course they will be benfitting from the novelty factor, also the visits of the Big Two early on in the season when the weather is good etc. While there may be a few Groundhoppers and neutrals who've trotted along as well. But however you measure it, being able to attract three times the population of the whole place is pretty good (imo), even if it likely won't last.


But agree a pyramid system would be preferable. And who knows, if the IFA hadn't taken 130 odd years to implement a pyramid maybe there's no FAI.Don't quite understand that last bit - the FAI broke away 41 years after the formation of the IFA i.e. long before league pyramids were a feature of professional, or semi-professional, football anywhere.
I mean, even the English Football League (founded 1888) didn't introduce automatic promotion from non-league until 1987, and then only for one club at a time.
Full pyramids are a relatively (stress) recent introduction to professional leagues, UK and Europe.

[ifk101]

Lakeview Park is actually just outside the village, kinda - nowhere is very far from the village centre!
.....

All very good but the Wexford reference was to alert you to the existence of LOI clubs (making a contribution) with a more rural/ population sparse location than Loughgall.


Don't quite understand that last bit - the FAI broke away 41 years after the formation of the IFA i.e. long before league pyramids were a feature of professional, or semi-professional, football anywhere.
I mean, even the English Football League (founded 1888) didn't introduce automatic promotion from non-league until 1987, and then only for one club at a time.
Full pyramids are a relatively (stress) recent introduction to professional leagues, UK and Europe.

You are portraying the pyramid in the North as forward-thinking, revolutionary, and innovative, and using this portrayal to indulge in a little dig. Yet acknowledge pyramids are a recent development, the 2010/11 season in the North. While I agree pyramids systems are preferable, I’d be more interested in the player development aspect, in terms of offering a pathways to the top tier and from there senior international level. It doesn’t seem to be having a positive impact for the North in this respect, but given the short existence of the pyramid, it’s still too early to say either way.

[EalingGreen]

All very good but the Wexford reference was to alert you to the existence of LOI clubs (making a contribution) with a more rural/ population sparse location than Loughgall.So Wexford's ground is outside the town. Same applies eg to Warrenpoint. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make and regardless of what it is, whose "fault" is it in either case (if the term "fault" may be applied)?

My own simple point was that thus far, at least, Loughgall have been drawing surprisingly big crowds to their ground on the edge of a tiny village, in a region with a lot of other clubs nearby.


You are portraying the pyramid in the North as forward-thinking, revolutionary, and innovative, and using this portrayal to indulge in a little dig. Yet acknowledge pyramids are a recent development, the 2010/11 season in the North. While I agree pyramids systems are preferable, I’d be more interested in the player development aspect, in terms of offering a pathways to the top tier and from there senior international level. It doesn’t seem to be having a positive impact for the North in this respect, but given the short existence of the pyramid, it’s still too early to say either way.This is shaping up to be a hot topic in NI, since NIFL Chairman Gerard Lawlor is currently promoting a new 5 Year Plan for the NIFL, the main feature of which is a switch to a summer season. And while he promises "consultation" and "agreement" etc, it seems pretty clear that his own mind is made up and he'll push it through if he can.

In which context I am opposed, since as we've seen with the LOI, one consequence of any major switch would be to cut the Senior game off from the rest of the game in NI, thereby preventing the growth of the game outside the same small closed shop of established clubs. And whatever other benefits* which might accrue from this, and imo these are debateable, they would surely be outweighed by the overall damage this could do to the game throughout the whole of NI.

P.S. Maybe it's me, but I still don't get your reference: "And who knows, if the IFA hadn't taken 130 odd years to implement a pyramid maybe there's no FAI.". As I said, it took the English Football League nearly 100 years to implement their own pyramid and other countries even longer. And there's no FAI what?



* - Greater progress in Europe? The LOI's UEFA Coefficient scores suggest it hasn't been very marked, and even where this has happened, it may be more correlation than causation, stemming eg from greater professionalism, or greater player recruitment from outside Ireland.
Bigger crowds? NIFL crowds are growing strongly as it is, so why fix it before it appears broke?
As for player development, I'm not sure how this should inevitably be hindered by having a pyramid, or enhanced by not having one. Much more important (imo) are Coaching/Youth Development/Academies etc, i.e. before youngsters even get to experience Senior, adult football. Besides which, elite player development is hardly the sole rationale for Senior football, is it? Just look eg to the "Soup" article by a Finn Harps fan posted elsewhere on this site for a great illustration of what having a Senior football club does for a whole community. Should we be cutting that off from every other Loughgall or Ballybofey?

[ifk101]

So Wexford's ground is outside the town ....
Fine. The reference was in response to your initial dig comment. You can google where Wexford’s ground is in relation to the town. Warrenpoint’s pitch is in the town, no?


P.S. Maybe it's me, but I still don't get your reference: ....

An interconnected league with a ladder system of promotion/ relegation incorporating regionalisation is nothing new and was in existence elsewhere at the time of the FAI’s foundation. And yes, not a pyramid in strict interpretation. But I wonder if the Leinster Senior League as a regionalised underbelly offering promotion to/ relegation from the Irish League would have helped to address some grievances at the time, and perhaps enough to discourage the FAI’s formation. Simplistic thoughts I know – awaiting the death by text wall reply ?


the rest Time constraints so need to summarise responses here.

Agree switch to summer would be detrimental to the pyramid, understand your opposition.

Feels like there is a greater player drain from the LOI than the NIFL, although don’t have statistics to support this. Also, feels as it the age profile of the typical LOI player is quite young. Considerations with an impact on results in Europe/ the coefficient. Of course, other factors at play in addition to these brief comments.

Crowds everywhere are benefitting from a post C19 boost, no? Hopefully this increasing trend can withstand down turning economies.

Obviously player development isn’t the be all, end all. Just personal interest as stated. The current thought in my adopted country is that football should be non-competitive up to certain age groups (12-13 years old) and playing time should be divided into small groups (3 against 3 etc) to ensure all are maximizing time on the ball. After this, academics etc can take over with teaching the mechanics of the game. Keeping the “fun” element for longer is assumed will help limit the number of teenagers falling out of the game. With more staying in the game, overall standards are expected to improve, and a pyramid in turn can help late developers to move up the system, feeding into the top tier and by extension the national team.

Haven’t read the post you mentioned. And not to dilute the contents of that post as I haven't read it, but sports clubs are central for communities from my experience regardless of code/ level etc.

Have a good weekend.

[EalingGreen]

Fine. The reference was in response to your initial dig comment. You can google where Wexford’s ground is in relation to the town. Warrenpoint’s pitch is in the town, no? Somebody had commented elsewhere about how small a place Loughgall (pop.284) is to be hosting a top flight club. I pointed out that thus far at least, their crowds have been pretty impressive, which caused you to note that the ground of one particular LOI club, Wexford, is outside the town. As non sequiturs go, that is highly impressive; in fact I'm still baffled as to its relevance to Loughgall FC.

You then went on to point to towns/population centres within 15 miles of Loughgall, presumably to demonstrate a large catchment area for the Lakesiders, whilst ignoring that those towns already have established Senior/Intermediate clubs of their own as an obvious alternative to supporting Loughgall. Meanwhile, the nearest towns to (ahem) Wexford with an LOI club of their own are Waterford (35 miles) and Bray (74 miles), so leaving a large catchment around Wexford (pop.21.5k) to boost their attendances from their current average of 694, no?



An interconnected league with a ladder system of promotion/ relegation incorporating regionalisation is nothing new and was in existence elsewhere at the time of the FAI’s foundation. And yes, not a pyramid in strict interpretationNo, not a pyramid by any interpretation, with absolutely no place amongst the myriad reasons why the FAI split from the IFA a hundred years ago. You know, many decades before pyramids were a "thing" in professional football.



But I wonder if the Leinster Senior League as a regionalised underbelly offering promotion to/ relegation from the Irish League would have helped to address some grievances at the time, and perhaps enough to discourage the FAI’s formation. Simplistic thoughts I know – awaiting the death by text wall reply ?
"Simplistic"? I personally would call it nonsense and suggest you refer to Cormac Moore's excellent book for further information on the situation, including the stance taken on occasion by the Leinster FA during talks aiming to heal the split:
https://www.corkuniversitypress.com/9781782054535/the-irish-soccer-split/



Haven’t read the post you mentioned. And not to dilute the contents of that post as I haven't read it, but sports clubs are central for communities from my experience regardless of code/ level etc.
Reproduced here: https://finnharps.ie/community-connection-soul-and-soup/

My own view is that while the production of players for our respective NT's is a "nice to have", the rationale behind/purpose of having Senior football at clubs like Loughgall or Finn Harps is a whole lot wider than that, as Rory White's above article, or this visit by the BBC's "Football Focus" to Loughgall (below), both illustrate beautifully:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/66970763
(Unsure whether the 6 minute video embedded in this link is available outside the UK)

[ifk101]

…. in fact I'm still baffled as to its relevance to Loughgall FC.

You used the example of Loughgall to muse “there must be loads of Loughgalls (or bigger) in ROI, who could make a similar contribution to the LOI First Division at least, but will never do so so long as you lack a pyramid.”

The example of Wexford, a “more rurally” isolated club than Loughgall, is used to dismiss this comment as contribution is not solely determined by the existence/ non-existence of a pyramid. Wexford successfully sought “election” to the LOI, in much the same way Loughgall has sought election during its club history to advance itself.


You then went on to point to towns/population centres within 15 miles of Loughgall ……

… to offer explanation for the 700 odd shortfall between village population of 300 and crowd numbers 1000+. Or is the away team and its support making the contribution?


No, not a pyramid by any interpretation, with absolutely no place amongst the myriad reasons why the FAI split from the IFA a hundred years ago. You know, many decades before pyramids were a "thing" in professional football.

"Simplistic"? I personally would call it nonsense and suggest you refer to Cormac Moore's excellent book for further information on the situation, including the stance taken on occasion by the Leinster FA during talks aiming to heal the split:
https://www.corkuniversitypress.com/9781782054535/the-irish-soccer-split/

The FAI formation to replace IFA arose from an internal power struggle or, more correctly, lack of power sharing. If the IFA had chosen to democratise internal structures and to limit the scope for division (perhaps making a start in addressing grievances with a league structure facilitating the game’s growth down “south”), and was mindful its remit was an all-island association and not just for mates in Belfast, maybe there is no FAI.

Will have a read of the article and watch the video.

[EalingGreen]

You used the example of Loughgall to muse “there must be loads of Loughgalls (or bigger) in ROI, who could make a similar contribution to the LOI First Division at least, but will never do so so long as you lack a pyramid.”
How is my assertion incorrect? (See next reply)


The example of Wexford, a “more rurally” isolated club than Loughgall, is used to dismiss this comment as contribution is not solely determined by the existence/ non-existence of a pyramid. Wexford successfully sought “election” to the LOI, in much the same way Loughgall has sought election during its club history to advance itself.
Whatever happened to those two clubs in the past, my point is that in the present, there is no effective mechanism in ROI to see another Loughgall/Wexford achieve Senior status. Which is why in recent years, in order to keep numbers up in the top two tiers, the LOI has variously had (A) to admit Shamrock Rovers "B" for a season; (B) parachute in a small -Boys? - club, Cabinteely, in their place, who effectively folded after a few seasons; (C) had to go with 9 teams in the FD for a season; and (D) have had to concoct a brand new and amateur club, Kerry FC, to make league numbers up to 20, even though they've as yet been unable to compete.

This is despite ROI having a population two and a half times that of NI, rather wealthier, and with none of the religious/political problems which blight our game. With this lack of a pyramid, and corresponding summer season, explaining why the ROI has just 16 Senior pro- or semi-pro clubs, needing two amateur clubs, a student club and another from NI to make up two 10 team divisions.

By contrast, the IL has 24 Senior clubs, with P&R down to another 14 clubs in the PIL, some of them semi-pro, and all without by far the biggest club in NI's second city. (Where would the LOI be if eg they lost Cork City?)

Which gets us right back to Loughgall, in that if the LOI had a proper pyramid, then the way would be open to clubs from any number of towns with considerably greater population, catchment and potential etc, to spread and develop the game throughout the entire country.




… to offer explanation for the 700 odd shortfall between village population of 300 and crowd numbers 1000+. Or is the away team and its support making the contribution?
Of course the great majority of support comes with the visiting teams, rather than from nearby towns, all of which have clubs of their own to support. This away support will presumably tail off as the novelty wears off as seen eg by their most recent attendance of 555 at home to Larne. The latter do not ordinarily bring many travelling fans, and are one of only a couple of Premiership clubs to have visited Loughgall in recent seasons, so no "new ground" attraction there. Further, it was also a Tuesday evening game in poor weather, on a school night, and only four days after attracting three times that crowd against Linfield.

But my point remains, even if half of the 555 were Larne fans (generous guess?), that means the home/neutral support will still have been somewhere equal to the entire population of the village. Of course no-one expects Wexford to attract 21k fans every week(!), but even 5% of that would be an improvement. Or does nobody in the town have a car in which to drive all the way out to the ground, maybe carrying a couple of mates with them?



The FAI formation to replace IFA arose from an internal power struggle or, more correctly, lack of power sharing. If the IFA had chosen to democratise internal structures and to limit the scope for division (perhaps making a start in addressing grievances with a league structure facilitating the game’s growth down “south”), and was mindful its remit was an all-island association and not just for mates in Belfast, maybe there is no FAI.

Will have a read of the article and watch the video.Read Cormac Moore's book, and you'll see that whatever the many reasons for the breakaway, the absence of an IL pyramid, decades before any such was introduced anywhere, was never one of them.

Otherwise the FAI/LOI would have introduced one of their own when in a position to do so! Yet still we're waiting, 101 years later...

[EalingGreen]

Loughgall have a German gk, Berraat Turker playing for them and ZDF (German equivalent of BBC or RTE) recently sent a film crew to Loughgall to take a look at the club. Bits are in German, but the rest is in English:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU-hwfo3LYQ

[LurcherLover]

Warrenpoints ground is about a 20/25 min walk from the town. They also would struggle to make 100 fans at a home game while in the premiership while are currently getting about 40 at the current PIL games. Their away attendance is pretty much non existent but the attendance at the games are due to other aspects in the town.