English Clubs Ban Gambling Sponsors on Shirts

[EatYerGreens]

This needs to happen in the LOI as well : Premier League clubs agree to ban gambling sponsors from shirts (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/football/premier-league-clubs-agree-to-ban-gambling-sponsors-from-shirts/ar-AA19Olw6?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=320614b653504f97b1dc89d0f4a81b87&ei=11)

When you find yourself behind the English Premier League in terms of moral stances, you know you're definitely in the wrong.

[culloty82]

Absolutely, mind you, continuing to accept it on sleeves and ad hoardings strikes one as wanting to have your cake and eat it. To the GAA's credit, it voted to ban gambling sponsorship on intercounty jerseys back in 2018.

[sbgawa]

English premier league has sponsors queing up by comparison with LOI plus a huge TV deal.
Easy for them to be virtuos and Woke. Well wokish i suppose as it can still go on hoardings and sleaves etc.

[total hoofball]

Correct me if I'm wrong I think it's only Dundalk in the LOI now who have a gambling company as a main sponsor?

Not sure about back of shirt or side of sleeves for other clubs but I think the LOI has been on an unenforced cleansing of gambling sponsorships after an uptick in these sponsorships a few years back

[toffeejay84]

Seems like gambling companies have reduced in recent years as main sponsors any way.

[nigel-harps1954]

Isn't it already coming in here next year?

[brendy_éire]

This needs to happen in the LOI as well

Why?

I find it hypocritical to be calling for banning of betting sponsorship, whilst still being happy to run club lottos and half time draws. Football clubs also benefit from lotto funding, and we hear demands for football to get a cut of the betting tax that horse racing and the greyhounds get.
We can't pretend to have some sort of moral high ground, unless we cut all ties with gambling.


Isn't it already coming in here next year?

Not just an FAI thing?

[Neish]

Why?

I find it hypocritical to be calling for banning of betting sponsorship, whilst still being happy to run club lottos and half time draws. Football clubs also benefit from lotto funding, and we hear demands for football to get a cut of the betting tax that horse racing and the greyhounds get.
We can't pretend to have some sort of moral high ground, unless we cut all ties with gambling.

IMO There is a big difference in clubs running their own lotto draws etc where most of there revenue goes into running the club and private companies running sports betting where most of the revenue goes to the owners/ shareholders private wealth.
(I a national lottery where large parts of revenue goes toward funding vital local projects, on the same side as clubs running their own lotto draws)

[brendy_éire]

IMO There is a big difference in clubs running their own lotto draws etc where most of there revenue goes into running the club and private companies running sports betting where most of the revenue goes to the owners/ shareholders private wealth.

I don't think that argument holds. Presumably, the reason behind banning gambling sponsorship is around the harm problem gambling can cause? Where the profits are going doesn't change the harm caused to the individual.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's a big difference between a half-time ticket and some of the really cynical ways large betting companies deliberately target people with gambling addictions though. It's that latter part that's the real concern (even if Father Billy O'Dwyer might argue otherwise)

[EatYerGreens]

I find it hypocritical to be calling for banning of betting sponsorship, whilst still being happy to run club lottos and half time draws.

I've yet to hear of anyone who's life has been ruined through taking part in an LOI club half-time draw (except maybe those stuck with organising it).

The difference in scale, impact etc is so stark that I'm surprised it needs pointing out to be honest. It would be like saying anyone who opposes war should also be against paintball.

[EatYerGreens]

I don't think that argument holds. Presumably, the reason behind banning gambling sponsorship is around the harm problem gambling can cause? Where the profits are going doesn't change the harm caused to the individual.

It does though.

I'd wager* that the vast majority of those buying a half-time draw ticket are not doing so for the thrill of the draw. It's basically just a donation to the club, with a relatively minor side benefit that there's a slim chance they might get something from it. Conversely, no-one is interested in making 'donations' to Paddy Power, Boyle Sports etc. Those interactions are definitely about the thrill of the bet. Hence why people don't get addicted to half-time draws, but do to the more obvious and insidious forms of gambling. Because they're very different things, with different motivations and recipients involved. So the inherent nature of the 'bet' (in terms of rationale and motivatio for participation) does have a direct impact upon the potential for harm.

*(all puns intended)

[sbgawa]

Its all just woke virtue signaling unless we are prepared to tell the Government we dont want a share of the betting tax and dont want any perimiter signage for bookies
Lets look good but we still want the money from betting as long as we can pretend we dont condone it

[dahamsta]

I've moved the bulk of this thread to the bin (https://foot.ie/threads/282716-English-Clubs-Ban-Gambling-Sponsors-on-Shirts). I would have preferred to have retained the debate, however Lim til i die reposted his infracted post after it had been deleted, so I'm not giving it any more air. Lim til i die has been banned until I can review on Monday.

Feel free to continue the debate, but I don't want any discussion of Lim til I die for now.

Oh, and can we refrain from use of the word "woke" please. It's just a pathetic word at this point. Here's a rough guide: If it's used by any of: conspiritards, FFG, Tories, or Republicans, it's over.

[oriel]

Isn't it already coming in here next year?

Not sure but think Bet Regal deal with Dundalk is up end of season.

[EalingGreen]

English premier league has sponsors queing up by comparison with LOI plus a huge TV deal.
Easy for them to be virtuos and Woke. Well wokish i suppose as it can still go on hoardings and sleaves etc.
As it happens, none of the 'Big Six' has a gambling company as their shirt sponsor - basically they are so huge that they can attract huge global companies to sponsor them.

While several of the other PL clubs do have betting companies sponsoring them, since they routinely pay much more (I've seen x 2 quoted) than ordinary sponsors.

Consequently gambling sponsorship is more important to the other PL clubs, who already have much smaller revenues than the Big Six as it is. Nor is it mere coincidence that the EFL has not followed the PL precedent (yet at any rate), since they are even more dependant on gambling sponsors etc.

Anyhow, the whole thing is a mess (imo), and while I'm someone who enjoys the occasional modest flutter myself, I still think all gambling advertising and sponsorship should be banned from football.

[oriel]

While Premier League in England have 2 more years until gambling jersey sponsors are banned, FAI doesn't appear to be making any moves to follow suit.

Dundalk were the only club last year with one, and I thought this was going to end as Bet Regal 3 year deal ended, however it looks like Casino 888 will be confirmed in a 3 year deal as soon as next week, and probably linking in with the 2024 kit launch. The deal per local paper 'The Argus' has 'eclipsed' what BR were offering, some are saying its possibly highest in LOI history, I`m not sure if it is as I remember Nissan had a big deal with Cork City, but that was probably 20 years ago come to think of it, so maybe 888 is the biggest.

It won't be everyone's cup of tea but until its permitted its not breaking any rules, I was then thinking back to other LOI gambling sponsors, may have missed a few:

Dundalk - Bet Regal
Rovers - 888
Bohs - Mr Green
Pats - Paddy Power

Was there anyone else? I have a feeling Waterford may have had one but could be wrong.

[joey B]

Was it some kind of casino Waterford had ?

[oriel]

Wanted to avoid google, but got curious, turns out Waterford had 2

Spin Casino and 21 Bet

Any other clubs then apart the 5 mentioned?

[Nesta99]

Ban away whenever Dundalk either dont need such sponsorship or that other deals offer more money!!

I have yet to see proper peer reviewed research that suggest that such a ban is little more than a sticking plaster on a much broader social issue and wont be the dressed up the miracle fix, which it will not be, but will be walked away from as job done. It is no different from banning cigarette sponsorship of events in the 90s, made little impact until the subsequent smoking 2000s ban. Alcohol sponsorship restrictions have limited impact also (except personally when a gig is sponsored by say Budweiser and that that is the only sh1t that they sell).

National ID card for proper age verification for online gambling, or any gambling for that matter, companies limiting how much an individual can spend etc etc, all tougher to implement but actually effective that banning shirt sponsors in a ver small market.

[Larry 'da' Wyse]

Some good points about asking for a slice of the betting tax if at the same time saying clubs can't benefit from betting via sponsorship. I'm unsure if the restrictions on alcohol brands had had an impact - presume deals like Rascals/Pats; Bohs/Porterhouse Sligo/White Hag? work well. Some cracking jerseys with drink sponsorship back in the day - CCFC/Guinness/Beamish Bohs/Bass Dundalk/Harp.

[trevy]

Waterford had local brew Hoffmans lager as shirt sponsors back in the 80's and it's considered a classic shirt with some fans getting retro versions of it even now. UCD had Budweiser at some stage too.
The gambling sponsors here don't seem to be in your face as much as the Premier League ones with flashing advertising boards and regular ads on tv during matches urging you to gamble

[pineapple stu]

UCD had Budweiser at some stage too.
For about 20 years - 1985 to 2005 or so

We had Kaliber before that (alcohol free!)

[Nesta99]

Not my first good auld rant on this but it is a topic or particular interest for me but at least I wont go off on the comparitave pointless methods of the 'war on drugs'.....888 could be a phone company to me or Mr Green a veggie man.

If we are serious about dealing with societal issues on gambling then we ban horse and dog racing. I dont think Im projecting here that the attraction to horse racing is different to football or tennis etc. with exceptions, and is not rooted in being awe struck by the guile and talent of the mount or jockey - (try getting Paddy Powers top 10 most famous race horses just as quick test, even i got red rum and shergar, dogs??? something Bob is as far as i got compare to sports of similar economics or even that last 10 GAA foty).

People that are vulnerable to destructive gambling are (sounding very blunt)generally identified as predisposed to psychological addiction and or are from fairly well defined socioeconomic groupings. With this in mind it is not an issue that can be piecemealed in to the background for another day, one size fits all rubbish. Lip service efforts only undermine future proper and extensive efforts and this issue is a developing one as technology increases access to a lot more people than the high street bookies. Restricting razmataz shop fronts makes sense, arguably branding on club gear, enforcable age restriction, banning adds on Cheltenham where people are jumping up and down screaming with their bookies chit in hand, but its almost whats the point in that when the problem is predominantly online, smartphone based, and for example when ye watch a live EPL game theres very enticing live odds wagering with a celebrity practically imploring people to have a punt. By all means deal with the issues at hand in every way that matters but make it count 1st time, across all eccentricities of the gambling industry, users and make an actual difference rather than follow the outdated modalities of other connected socio-health mitigations.

Past examples are very closely linked to this, we've known for decades that cigarettes are bad for public health, cost a fortune to the health service and tax payer. People say things like the public purse couldnt do without takes on tobacco but it is a net cost to society. Now public health wornings in conjunction with the smoking ban, scarily 2 decades ago, with increased pricing, proper policing of sales to minors, and punitive measures for flouting the law, widespread public support iresspective for a vocal and vested interest minority and we have significant falls in the number of smokers, still a way to go though. Next up the issue of vaping among our youth and that public health disaster coming a decade or so down the road - evidence of this is already jumping out in both acute and primary heathcare.

The alcohol example, restricted by age, advertisemant and sponsorship restrictions, years of public health campaigns, lowering limits, zero safe levels of consumption (like smoking a proven carcinogen) - anecdotally I felt drink driving campaigns worked and public attitude seemed to have changed but lafter an initial fall stats plateued with 38% of road fatalities involving alcohol - just road fatalities!! hundreds arrested each week and they are the one just caught. €4billion annual bill for destructive consumption habits just in healthcare never mind policing etc. I like, pardon the term, of the more recent method of referencing stats in Disability Adjusted Life Years (DALY) and annually almost 65,000 years are lost in Ireland to 'risky' alcohol consumptionand and this with more kitchen sinks than any LoI club could muster thown at the problem. A Lancet review of the impact on initiatives such as the type proposed on gambling company sponsship found... '(initiatives) can improve alcohol-related knowledge and awareness.....the available evidence does not appear to reduce consumption'. But 'Campaigns may have an indirect effect on behaviour by providing support for other policies more likely to reduce alcohol consumption'. It is this latter finding that needs to be looked at and isolated in greater detail and applied rather than the tried and tested and largely failed precedence we have. (Some people will find this too much state intrusion but novel deterrants to drink driving or speeding, the Finnish access tax records and issue fines according to wealth so it hits where it hurts while not disproportionately penalising possibly the more vulnerable either, engagement with appropriate health services can be mandated, and hard hitting education courses thrown in for the young or ignorant. Just a small example of a possibly better thought out process).

I'm not saying that problem gambling should be ignored and people abandoned, do we even have capacity in support services to assist people at risk, for treatment, or reduce relapse. Im udoubtedly labouring the point here but these issues are too complex to just offer a nod to things and then start patting on the back for a job thought well done. Has there been engagement with the people most affected even? Will any potential proposed ban be in consulation with appropriate public health groups or will it be a publicity ploy. Not a rival supported dig but someone like Conor Hoey pontificating about such an issue without understanding or even acknowledging the broader complexities and needs, sweeping gestures, well it just does more damage than good however well intended. I wouldnt rail against any legitimate efforts to improve things for our league supporters and needs but at the very least lets not have clubs or the league make decisions with a presuption that they know what is all good without talking to those at the coalface.

[Nesta99]

Waterford had local brew Hoffmans lager as shirt sponsors back in the 80's and it's considered a classic shirt with some fans getting retro versions of it even now. UCD had Budweiser at some stage too.
The gambling sponsors here don't seem to be in your face as much as the Premier League ones with flashing advertising boards and regular ads on tv during matches urging you to gamble

Ha after my rant on alcohol consumption bad habits....Hoffmans was Irish?? It used to be sold in my old SU in London for 50p (noughties era not the flipping 50s) cause it was absolutely rank, students bought it by the lorry load but the bar probably made a real wedge on blackcurrant cordial trying to disguise the taste. One chuckle I had in Oriel Park volunteering in the Lilywhite Lounge back in the day was running out of Harp on a match night, was told to put on Carlsberg kegs and say nothing - bunch of people came up after praising the 'Best pint of Harp ever'. Sooo the pwoer of suggestion....not sure Ive said that out loud before as its as close to sacrilege as youll get in Dundalk.

[oriel]

Waterford had local brew Hoffmans lager as shirt sponsors back in the 80's and it's considered a classic shirt with some fans getting retro versions of it even now. UCD had Budweiser at some stage too.
The gambling sponsors here don't seem to be in your face as much as the Premier League ones with flashing advertising boards and regular ads on tv during matches urging you to gamble

I remember that one, Waterford possibly had light pinstripe blue top too, it was a strong lager too if I recall. Dundalk had Harp for a very long time, 86/87 to 2002, final outing was winning FAI Cup.

Rovers also had Powers Whiskey, pretty sure Cobh had beamish too (Sligo might have it also), Derry had Smithwicks a long time too if I recall.

Waterford / Hoffmans, I was at a FAI Cup QF game in Kilkochan Park, 86, WU got to the final, always recall the attendance as easy to remember, 5454.

[brendy_éire]

Some cracking jerseys with drink sponsorship back in the day - CCFC/Guinness/Beamish Bohs/Bass Dundalk/Harp.

Derry's Smithwick's jerseys were great (see my avatar). There an Umbro one that's particularly good. Think the green works well on the stripes.

[trevy]

Hoffmans sounded German but was made in Waterford in the brewery near the quay(which is now a whiskey distillery). It hasn't been made in years which is probably a good thing as by all accounts it gave people a terrible hangover.
Wasn't there proposals a few years ago that all alcohol sponsorship would be banned from sports jerseys but I see some GAA clubs still sponsored by pubs? It must not have been implemented.

[Another Bohemia]

Hoffmans sounded German but was made in Waterford in the brewery near the quay(which is now a whiskey distillery). It hasn't been made in years which is probably a good thing as by all accounts it gave people a terrible hangover.
Wasn't there proposals a few years ago that all alcohol sponsorship would be banned from sports jerseys but I see some GAA clubs still sponsored by pubs? It must not have been implemented.

Is a pub an alcohol sponsorship? Or would it be classed as a venue sponsorship? A lot of pubs serve food now and all restaurants serve alcohol, all concert venues serve alcohol and many run club nights? At what point does it change from a venue sponsorship to an alcohol sponsorship

[trevy]

That's a fair point. I wouldn't have any issue with pubs sponsoring teams and not bothered either if an alcohol brand sponsored a team. Alcohol consumption has actually dropped a good bit in Ireland in last 20 years.

[oriel]

I think the final score on LOI clubs gambling related jersey sponsorship (hate that word 'shirt') is 5 then.

Dundalk 2024- ? (888 Casino) ...........and 2021-2023 with Bet Regal.
Rovers - 888 (2022)
Bohs (Mr Green) not sure on seasons but at least 3?
Pats - Paddy Power - Mid 2010's etc - at least 2 seasons?
Waterford - Bet 21 and Casino?, combined, at least 3 seasons.



Dundalk the sole one in 2023 (not in 2022) but only one again in 2024 and probably for at least 2 more years unless others follow suit, but its unclear if there is an appetite but money offered could change things.

[2 Year Contract]

I think the final score on LOI clubs gambling related jersey sponsorship (hate that word 'shirt') is 5 then.

Dundalk 2024- ? (888 Casino) ...........and 2021-2023 with Bet Regal.
Rovers - 888 (2022)
Bohs (Mr Green) not sure on seasons but at least 3?
Pats - Paddy Power - Mid 2010's etc - at least 2 seasons?
Waterford - Bet 21 and Casino?, combined, at least 3 seasons.



Dundalk the sole one in 2023 (not in 2022) but only one again in 2024 and probably for at least 2 more years unless others follow suit, but its unclear if there is an appetite but money offered could change things.

Had a quick google on this
Pats was 2007-2009
Bohs was 2014-2019
Rovers was 2021-2022
Waterford was 2017-2019 (2 of those years with 21Bet and 1 with Spin Casino

[Nesta99]

in general is there limited brand recognition of these sponsors compared to others previously like Harp, Beamish et al, Fyffes, Pepper etc., as international brands? Paddy Power the exception. Or is it generational for want of a better term. I probably knew 888 from general Sky Sports advertisement, Bet Regal, Bet 21 could be all the same to me. 888 and Rovers had the horse signing thing but did the online betting sponsors openly encourage downloading apps, or offer free bets to supporters in a hook them effort. You do see red top papers giving free tokens for betting during racing festival meets. Bet Regal got a nod as sponsor on Dundalk FC media channels at the end of interviews but was there active selling of their product beyond just the brand presence on the jersey/club media/Oriel Park. I genuinely dont know not being home much recently. BoyleSports were often touted as Dundalk FC sponsors with the HQ based in Dundalk, they sponsored Louth GAA and while John Boyle and company staff were often in Oriel Park (a bar tab could be as big as some actual sponsors) they were just seen as a GAA company but are sponsoring Crusaders up north and are all over Coventry, club and city.

[Another Bohemia]

in general is there limited brand recognition of these sponsors compared to others previously like Harp, Beamish et al, Fyffes, Pepper etc., as international brands? Paddy Power the exception. Or is it generational for want of a better term. I probably knew 888 from general Sky Sports advertisement, Bet Regal, Bet 21 could be all the same to me. 888 and Rovers had the horse signing thing but did the online betting sponsors openly encourage downloading apps, or offer free bets to supporters in a hook them effort. You do see red top papers giving free tokens for betting during racing festival meets. Bet Regal got a nod as sponsor on Dundalk FC media channels at the end of interviews but was there active selling of their product beyond just the brand presence on the jersey/club media/Oriel Park. I genuinely dont know not being home much recently. BoyleSports were often touted as Dundalk FC sponsors with the HQ based in Dundalk, they sponsored Louth GAA and while John Boyle and company staff were often in Oriel Park (a bar tab could be as big as some actual sponsors) they were just seen as a GAA company but are sponsoring Crusaders up north and are all over Coventry, club and city.

I wonder if it worth considering how the LOI is becoming more family friendly in these kinds of debates? I know that when I think of football clubs there are certain brands/sponsors that I inevitably think of e.g. Bohs/Des Kelly, Pat's/Autoglass, Rovers/Woodies and I'm sure there's more if I put real thought into it. The point is I know that these were sponsors of the teams at some point during my childhood or early adolescence. With the exception of Bohs/Des Kelly no other sponsor is currently a jersey sponsor for the club. These sponsorships can build a lasting impression for many people and while gambling sponsorships on the hole might not affect match going adults they may stick with the younger supporters for longer than we realise. TLDR "Won't somebody please think of the children!"

[Nesta99]

I never became a Harp Lager fan, was never a good lager except when there was nothing else, awful hangover Im told until recipie was changed as a 1994 (I think) World Cup celebration brew. The brand sticks, it was all I knew as a Dundalk sponsor from mid 80s to 2002 so from kid to early 20s. Its crops up as part of retro jerseys and not really as beer association. Oscars Bar was a brief sponsor also.

[outspoken]

I never became a Harp Lager fan, was never a good lager except when there was nothing else, awful hangover Im told until recipie was changed as a 1994 (I think) World Cup celebration brew. The brand sticks, it was all I knew as a Dundalk sponsor from mid 80s to 2002 so from kid to early 20s. Its crops up as part of retro jerseys and not really as beer association. Oscars Bar was a brief sponsor also.

Hangover off Harp is absolutely cat. Blows the head clane off ya

[Shearer]

I think the final score on LOI clubs gambling related jersey sponsorship (hate that word 'shirt') is 5 then.

Dundalk 2024- ? (888 Casino) ...........and 2021-2023 with Bet Regal.
Rovers - 888 (2022)
Bohs (Mr Green) not sure on seasons but at least 3?
Pats - Paddy Power - Mid 2010's etc - at least 2 seasons?
Waterford - Bet 21 and Casino?, combined, at least 3 seasons.



Dundalk the sole one in 2023 (not in 2022) but only one again in 2024 and probably for at least 2 more years unless others follow suit, but its unclear if there is an appetite but money offered could change things.
Limerick FC in 2018 had BetSat.

[dahamsta]

Pint o' Harp and a packet o' dates there Lawrence.

[Nesta99]

Pint o' Harp and a packet o' dates there Lawrence.

Yeah and Pigs might fly!

[oriel]

Limerick FC in 2018 had BetSat.

Thanks, either didn't realise or had forgotten, so that makes 6 out of the 20 clubs, or 30% who had a betting main sponsor at one stage, with Dundalk the only one now left.

Casino 888 not yet officially confirmed, it will be soon though as new kit launch meant to be this week.

[Nesta99]

Youth replica jersys didnt have Bet Regal sponsors on them for obvios reasons - out of interest do people think adults should be able to purchase replicas without a sponsor for personal reasons? Say Bohs were sponsored by Maxol, a vegan supporter of CCFC wanting a jersey but advetises clonakilty sausages a few years ago (ladies now) maybe they're muslim. Avant Money and debt, they push the limit a tad imo with their various 0% credit card schemes that jump to 18% at various different times. Pepper Finance as club sponsors during recovery from debt crises with the vulture fund stuff cashing in the most indebted, distressed mortgage holders, refusing fixed rates inerest and different loans on different variable rates etc. Sponsors wouldnt be very happy and it would make things difficult for clubs in that regard but should a fan either be excluded from wearing a jersey or have to wear one that they which is ethically questionably (to the individual or group).

Both a question on opinions, maybe this isnt many, and on where could it end up trying accomodating all sorts of groups. There may be other contentious sponsorship and in this era of sportwashing do people really care if its the difference between a title challenge or not (if the quiet thought is no then it holds to the point that a lot more needs to be thought through to have any impact), is it just saying the right stuff but not really feeling it, motivated by potential publicity maybe, I dont intend to belittle the serious issue behind this thread but if fans dont have a say on what is on the players jerseys maybe small increments like choice on replicas is a place to work from.

[sbgawa]

Whatever about the morals of it, allowing people to purchase jerseys without the sponsors logo just wouldnt work from a sponsors point of view.
The current Rovers sponsor (Mascot) logo works well on the jersey but if youd allowed a choice a lot of people would have ditched the 888 logo which looked awful on the jersey and its not much good paying for jersey sponsorship if lots of people dont bother.
888 wasnt on the Academy jersey either btw.

[JC_GUFC]

Didn't Dundalk and/or Wexford also have SBOBet as their shirt sponsor at one stage?

A lot of the UK gambling shirt sponsorships aren't even aimed at the UK but aimed at the Asian market.

In terms of alcohol sponsorship Galway United had Tennent's in the early 90s.

[ForzaForth]

SBOBet rings a bell for Wexford - couple of years ago?

[2 Year Contract]

SBOBet rings a bell for Wexford - couple of years ago?

That’s right, it was the year in the Premier Division, 2016

[Nesta99]

Didn't Dundalk and/or Wexford also have SBOBet as their shirt sponsor at one stage?

A lot of the UK gambling shirt sponsorships aren't even aimed at the UK but aimed at the Asian market.

In terms of alcohol sponsorship Galway United had Tennent's in the early 90s.

Not as a main shirt sponsor, maybe as one of the secondary shirt sponsors but I dont think so.