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A face
08/08/2005, 4:10 PM
Anyone boycotting Shell over the whole episode ??

Student Mullet
08/08/2005, 4:41 PM
No. They can walk out of jail any time they want. They're in there for the publicity.

sligoman
08/08/2005, 4:42 PM
No. They can walk out of jail any time they want. They're in there for the publicity.Publicity me arse. They're in it cos they're standing up for what they believe is right

dahamsta
08/08/2005, 5:04 PM
I don't use Shell anyway over their exploitation of Nigeria.

Eire06
08/08/2005, 5:06 PM
No. They can walk out of jail any time they want. They're in there for the publicity.
They have to apologise to the court to be released from Jail

Anto McC
08/08/2005, 5:07 PM
They broke the law,they got punished even if they were protecting their families,if it was some rich guy,most people would say f*ck'em

monutdfc
08/08/2005, 5:09 PM
I'm with Dahamsta, haven't been to a Shell garage in years.

A face
08/08/2005, 5:19 PM
Anyone want ot let them know what you think .... irish-corporate@shell.com

anto1208
08/08/2005, 5:24 PM
Publicity me arse. They're in it cos they're standing up for what they believe is right


hitler also tought he was right .

pete
08/08/2005, 5:24 PM
I still buy petrol in Shell when i have to.

Those 5 men are in jail due to contempt of court. If the court lets them free without agreeing not to damage property again then system would collapse.

I don't know enough about the issue to take sides. saw a bit on Prime Time & wasn't conclusive. Why didn't the locals complain when project up for PLanning Permission?

I think the government is just playing politics with though. Was nuts to tell Shell to "unweld" the pipeline. What difference does it make it sitting on the ground unwelded or welded together. :rolleyes:

anto1208
08/08/2005, 5:32 PM
[QUOTE=pete]

I don't know enough about the issue to take sides. saw a bit on Prime Time & wasn't conclusive. Why didn't the locals complain when project up for PLanning Permission?

QUOTE]

because that would be the right thing to do and these are backwards boggers holding the country back . how many jobs were lost due to these 5 idiots , i stand to be corrected but i remember the contruction company saying something like a few hundred had been stood down .

monutdfc
08/08/2005, 5:37 PM
There's government double standards though.
When the IFA were blockading the meat factories there was a high court injunction against them. John O'Donoghue (Justice minister at the time) stood back and did nothing.
When Joe Higgins and Claire Daly were leading the bin protests, O'Donoghue was loud in saying that the rule of law had to be applied.
These were two exactly similar situations in terms of the legal process. Difference is the farmers vote is more important for FF than the bin protesters who are mostly SF/Labour/Workers Party anyway.

I'm not sure if the case of the Rossport 5 is the same in terms of the legal process, it's certainly similar.

Dempsey isn't the brightest button at the cabinet table. Probably knows nothing about Shell in Nigeria. It's far cheaper for Shell to have the processing onshore, so presumably there's more money in it for the government that way, hence the original decision. I'm not an engineer, but a lot of the safety fears seem to be overblown though.

dahamsta
08/08/2005, 5:47 PM
Dempsey isn't the brightest button at the cabinet table.Understatement of the month. Himself and Martin Cullen are rumoured to be the stars of the next Dumb and Dumber movie.

adam

liam88
08/08/2005, 5:54 PM
Shell are scum-almost as bad as Total! Executions in Nigeria and now imprisonments in Ireland.

Made this (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1566/scum21ul.png) feel free to use it on any website etc.

Also wrote an essay on both Shell and Total for my blog-mabye a bit long to post on here-about 500 words so might put it up later. I make sure no car I am in ever fills up at Totaliterian or Hell petrol stations.
The Rossport 5 are brave men standing up for their rights (and the song is class!)

Boycott Total and Shell!
Free Burma and Free the Rossport 5!

pete
08/08/2005, 6:12 PM
I don't see any difference in the oil companies. Surely other companies are in Nigeria & Burma?

I also don't see any difference between untreated gas pipeline & standard Bord Gais version. Ain't going to fun for anyone if either leaks. I would think very inlikely a welded steel pipe would leak.

anto1208
08/08/2005, 6:15 PM
[QUOTE=liam88]
The Rossport 5 are brave men standing up for their rights (and the song is class!)
QUOTE]

come off it , they had plenty of time to stand up for there right when this was in planning , they are moron s they deserve to be in jail , just like those free loading bin taxer's

thecorner
08/08/2005, 6:37 PM
just read this there
it would be an interesting exercise for a journalist to find out what five criminals got early release to accommodate the five Mayomen. One inmate that they won't get to meet (because he got out a month ago) is good old Ray Burke. And what does he have to do with it? T'was the bold Ray that signed the deal with the oil company on the first place…

liam88
08/08/2005, 7:14 PM
Surely other companies are in Nigeria & Burma?


Let's start with Shell in Nigeria. Firstly it was not the point that Shell were in Nigeria in the first place. If Shell had paid fair prices for the oil, fair wages to the Nigerian workers and made sur ethe money was being used constructivly (as they had both the pwoer and the responsibility to) then there would have been no problems. The fact is Shell exploited both the country and it's people. The mistreatment of workers on the pipline was met with criticism from Nigerian human rights groups-of which the two leaders were subsequently hanged by the corrupt government (funded by Shell) in an unfair trial (as agreed by the UN) which Shell had a very heavy hand in by both fabricating evidence and lining the pockets of officials to ensure human rights did not get in the way of making money.

Total in Burma bears similarities and criticism rest on 3 main points. Firstly are the on-the-ground 'direct' issues; Total use slave labour, child laboru and political prisoners int he construction of their pipline (so far 6 court cases have been taken out against them-unfortunatley none of which are likely to suceed). Total also employ the Burmese army (which has both the highest human rights abuses and highest number of child soldiers) to guard the pipeline-in the surrounding area they have been responsible for lootings, beatings and gang rapes of girls as young as 14.
Secondly is the economic issue. Total gives $140 million dollars a year to a regime which spends 50% of it's income on militarey (currently invovled in a genocide against the Karen people-including the use of chemical weapons) and just 2% on health (while children die of malnourishment which is as high as 80% in some areas).
Finally in the huge political influence Total has on the EU. While the USA and Norway have both opted for unilateral sanctions in an attempt to cripple the Burmese regime the EU has not declared such sanctions. This is for the simple reason that a unanimous vote is required to impose sanctions and while nearly every country in the EU votes in favour of sanctions only France votes against for the soul reason of the billions of dollars that they recieve each year from Total and would loose should they vote for sanctions. France has seen every vote discarded despite every other EU country being in favour of sanctions, which they are to afraid to impose by themselves.

Student Mullet
08/08/2005, 8:43 PM
We can probably agree Liam that none of that is likely to happen in Mayo.

Poor Student
08/08/2005, 8:47 PM
France has seen every vote discarded despite every other EU country being in favour of sanctions, which-with the exception of Norway, they are to afraid to impose by themselves.

Norway isn't a member of the EU.

dfx-
08/08/2005, 8:56 PM
In a word, no.

The longer they are in jail, the easier it might be for a lesson to be made that you cannot break the law.

I don't care what they did, what they were doing it for, what they hoped to gain or who they were against, I have no sympathy for them. :rolleyes: :mad:

And I will continue using Shell. Because they have what I want at that particular time (I use Shell very rarely anyway).

liam88
08/08/2005, 9:07 PM
Norway isn't a member of the EU.
Sorry my mistake; all that means is that all the EU countries are to cowardly to impose unilateral sanctions against the most brutal regime in the world.
Student Mullet I made that post in reply to Pete,



Surely other companies are in Nigeria & Burma?


With regards to it happening in MAyo the Irish government has not let them get that far but has imprisoned men for protesting against Shells conduct where the Nigerian government executed men for protesting against Shells conduct.
Proportionally the actions being protested against are different, yes, but the principle remains and the fact remains that the Rossport 5 are not criminals.

Éanna
08/08/2005, 9:34 PM
I don't use Shell anyway over their exploitation of Nigeria.
same here. I also avoid american petrol companies due to their support for Bush.

Student Mullet
08/08/2005, 10:15 PM
With regards to it happening in MAyo the Irish government has not let them get that far but has imprisoned men for protesting against ShellsTwo mistakes here Liam; the government cannot imprison men only the courts can. Secondly they were not imprisoned for protesting but for blocking a public roadway and refusing to stop when instructed to by the court.

Unlike Nigeria we have a democratic system. When someone takes action outside the law they are punished by the courts. That is what happened here. The men can leave prison as soon as they agree to abide by the law in future. If they don't like the law they should vote for a politician in favour of changing it.

monutdfc
08/08/2005, 10:27 PM
Two mistakes here Liam; the government cannot imprison men only the courts can. Secondly they were not imprisoned for protesting but for blocking a public roadway and refusing to stop when instructed to by the court.

The farmers were not jailed (or indeed felt no sanctions) when they blockaded the meat plants and refused to stop when instructed by the court.
The government had a major role in this fact.

liam88
08/08/2005, 11:18 PM
Two mistakes here Liam; the government cannot imprison men only the courts can. Secondly they were not imprisoned for protesting but for blocking a public roadway and refusing to stop when instructed to by the court.

Unlike Nigeria we have a democratic system. When someone takes action outside the law they are punished by the courts. That is what happened here. The men can leave prison as soon as they agree to abide by the law in future. If they don't like the law they should vote for a politician in favour of changing it.

1. The government has a major role to play in this just like they did adversley in monutdfc's example. The men are being sould-out for the money from Shell which leads to.......

2. ....blocking the public roadway was their form of protest. Why should they have to abide by an unjust law which means that their land is taken from them and a potentially dangerous pipeline in laid near their homes. What if it was your land and your children who were in danger from the pipeline? The people who are going to be affected by this are the people of Rossport who overwhemingly support the 5. The government, court judges of Shell officials will not have to live with a pipeline running through their land.

Justice and Shell just don't go together as was proved back in Nigeria. Nothing has changed and it's the same old story just in Ireland and with toned down levels of corruption, slavery and murder. Still these men have been imprisoned for standing up for their rights which is wrong wherever it is the world.

A face
08/08/2005, 11:19 PM
they had plenty of time to stand up for there right when this was in planning


Why didn't this all go through the normal planning process ??

It is all above board then it should have go through the same process as everyone else ??

anto1208
09/08/2005, 9:44 AM
[QUOTE=liam88]
2. ....blocking the public roadway was their form of protest. Why should they have to abide by an unjust law which means that their land is taken from them and a potentially dangerous pipeline in laid near their homes. What if it was your land and your children who were in danger from the pipeline? The people who are going to be affected by this are the people of Rossport who overwhemingly support the 5. The government, court judges of Shell officials will not have to live with a pipeline running through their land.

QUOTE]

a fair point it is potentially dangerours but so are esb cables that run along and over famers land all across the country , do bord gais not have pipes all over the country , in fact i have it in my house there for i have potentially dangerous cables and pipes outside my house ,
its just the way it is .

also did ye hear on the news 191 workers were laid off from the site , thats 191 people out of work , that cant feed there families because of these 5 idiots . thats who im worried about not some farmers field blowing up in a freek accident , that could just as easily be him hitting esb cables .

Aldini98
09/08/2005, 10:07 AM
Boycott the cheapest petrol around? Are you mad? We get ripped off so much in this country I'm sticking to the cheapest - Shell it is so.

P.S. I don't drive, the better half does and she says Shell and she wears the trousers :)

Student Mullet
09/08/2005, 7:41 PM
blocking the public roadway was their form of protest. Why should they have to abide by an unjust law which means that their land is taken from them and a potentially dangerous pipeline in laid near their homes.It is possible to protest without blocking a roadway. Protesting is legal, blocking a road is not.

If the men feel the law is unjust they should vote for someone in favour of changing it. They are disrespecting me and the million or so Irish people who voted for the laws by breaking them.

In matters of pipeline construction I'll take the word of the several independant sets of experts who have declared the pipe safe ahead of five farmers from Mayo who presumably have no experience in pipeline construction.

Bottom line, there is 2 billion euro worth of gas down there and it is increadably selfish of these men to expect us to leave it there because they find bringing it ashore inconvenient.

A face
09/08/2005, 9:17 PM
Boycott the cheapest petrol around? Are you mad? We get ripped off so much in this country I'm sticking to the cheapest - Shell it is so.

Celtic Fuels are the cheapest i thought ??

anyway ... try www.irishfuelprices.com and go to Motor fuel ... and check your area !!

pete
09/08/2005, 10:28 PM
I saw a piece on RTE where the Project Engineer for Shell was arriving on site. One of the protestors was demanding he accompany the Engineer on site. Shell guy asked told the protestor he couldn't come on site cos he not trained & was dangerous construction site to unqualified people. Protestor asked Shell guy was he hiding something that he wouldn't let him on (private land) site. :rolleyes:

This is the usual nimby attitude in this country. Its the same way people complain about mobile phone masts but want good phone reception, protest against wind farms but also maon about pollution from coal/oil burning power plants.

This country has one of the slowest planning systems in the Western World & there are plenty of legal means for people to protest & block development.

BTW irish petrol distributers like Emo, Maxol etc (same for Tesco) do not have their own oil refineries as they get their refined oil from variety of oil companies including Shell, Esso, Texaco so buying your fuel at their pumps is as likely to put money into Shells back pocket as anyone else.

dahamsta
09/08/2005, 11:22 PM
BTW irish petrol distributers like Emo, Maxol etc (same for Tesco) do not have their own oil refineries as they get their refined oil from variety of oil companies including Shell, Esso, Texaco so buying your fuel at their pumps is as likely to put money into Shells back pocket as anyone else.Less money. If we're to go with this argument, we should all use Eircom for our telephone and Internet services because the OLO's have to use their lines and exchanges anyway. And we all know how cool monopolies are.

There's no doubt that some of the protestors have been silly. But by the same token some people in the oil companies are being silly too. There's no doubt some of the protestors have broken the law. But by the same token so have some of the oil companies. On a lot bigger scale.

Sauce for the goose.

adam

liam88
09/08/2005, 11:32 PM
BTW irish petrol distributers like Emo, Maxol etc (same for Tesco) do not have their own oil refineries as they get their refined oil from variety of oil companies including Shell, Esso, Texaco so buying your fuel at their pumps is as likely to put money into Shells back pocket as anyone else.

Going with Adam here yes a bt of your money might end up with Shell anyway but for example if you spend €20 filling up it is the choice between €5 to Shell or €20 to shell.

pete
09/08/2005, 11:32 PM
As a general rule i prefer facts that stupid protestor stunts. I think the majority of people realise that only those 5 men can decide when they leave jail.

Years ago people in this country backed every stupid protest, now they seem more discerning looking for facts before backing...

dahamsta
10/08/2005, 1:21 AM
I agree pete, but it would appear in this case that a lack of facts is at issue, i.e. that the technology being used for the pipeline is unproven. That gives some people cause for concern, and, obviously, cause for protest.

As to the method of their protest, I have to admit I'm finding it difficult to make a decision because of the abundance of "facts" being presented on the matter.

I disagree on the "discerning" comment. As someone who's managed campaigns, I'd use the words laziness. Discerning doesn't come into it.

adam

pete
10/08/2005, 9:50 AM
I disagree on the "discerning" comment. As someone who's managed campaigns, I'd use the words laziness. Discerning doesn't come into it.


Without going off topic what i was trying to suggest is that back in the 80's any state employees who protested automatically get public backing but not that easy anymore.

I agree irish people are lazy & protest doesn't come easy.

I'm probably just a cynic who doesn't take sides easily.

Lionel Ritchie
10/08/2005, 11:24 AM
I'm pretty uncomfortable with the entire project from conception to execution.

Why do I get the feeling that if this gas field was just off the Dutch coast rather than the Irish coast -then the Dutch government wouldn't have signed away a massive national natural resource for a song to a private company with intentions of selling back to the Dutch public that which is theirs already -and for not a penny less than market value.

There's an old saying that goes something like "If the Dutch had Ireland they'd all be rich and if If the Irish had Holland we'd all drown"

Those five guys are in a catch 22. On the one hand the courts have to be respected and their contempt has to be purged -on the other - I'm certain if I was one of them I couldn't give an undertaking NOT to protect my family, my livelihood and that which was mine.

nephin
10/08/2005, 12:26 PM
The protestors have been protesting long before the jailing of the 'Rossport five' and this includes the planning of this project. If they apologise to the courts they will have a criminal record against their name and these people are far from criminals. They are standing up for not only their livelihood but also the safety of their families.
The problem is that the gas that will be coming through their land is high pressuised 'dirty gas' which is then cleaned on land. The land on which these pipes are been laid is bogland and this has never been done anywhere in the world ever. Bogland is very unstable. All the protestors want is for the gas to be refined out at sea where it is safer.

cullenswood
10/08/2005, 1:24 PM
Is a criminal not someone who breaks the law, and if the court instructs you to do something and you disobey, is that not breaking the law?

I am also sick of the amount of NIMBY's in this country, it is getting ridiculous. All you need is one rabble-rouser in a community to spout a load of unqualified rubbish and you will get a load of people believing this nonsense. I remember about 20 years ago the Tara mast was being erected in Meath and there were massive protests, and claims saying that Meath would be like Chernobyl (sp), and become a waste land, because there would be so much radiation. 20 years later and there is not so much as a three eyed fish in the area. These statements were taken as fact by the protestors at the time though.

These men would not accept an independent study on the issue, unless it rules their way.

They deserve to stay in prison until they accept the law.

dahamsta
10/08/2005, 1:34 PM
Have you factual evidence supporting your suggestion that these particular protestors are spouting unqualified rubbish cullenswood?

adam

liam88
10/08/2005, 1:35 PM
Is a criminal not someone who breaks the law, and if the court instructs you to do something and you disobey, is that not breaking the law?

I am also sick of the amount of NIMBY's in this country, it is getting ridiculous. All you need is one rabble-rouser in a community to spout a load of unqualified rubbish and you will get a load of people believing this nonsense. I remember about 20 years ago the Tara mast was being erected in Meath and there were massive protests, and claims saying that Meath would be like Chernobyl (sp), and become a waste land, because there would be so much radiation. 20 years later and there is not so much as a three eyed fish in the area. These statements were taken as fact by the protestors at the time though.

These men would not accept an independent study on the issue, unless it rules their way.

They deserve to stay in prison until they accept the law.

Your problem here is that you are viewing the law as a black and white issue and not taking moral/ethical concerns into account.
Take this for example: it is a crime to punch someone and you can be sent to prison for this. Now think of a man who wife or child has just been attacked punching the assailent......it's not so simple. The law should take into account reasoning.
With regards to the "NIMBY" issue I think it is perfectly acceptable to be against a huge gas pipeline running thoguh, literally, your back yard....i'm usre you would be.

dahamsta
10/08/2005, 1:40 PM
The phrase you're looking for is civil disobedience Liam. It would appear some people have never heard of the concept. Perhaps they could enlighten themselves by reading this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience) before they post again and look even more ignorant (unappraised of the facts) and/or ignorant (stupid).

(I'm not looking at any one particular person. I'd do myself an injury trying to look at that many people at once.)

adam

rebs23
10/08/2005, 2:04 PM
Anyone boycotting Shell over the whole episode ??

No. We are a democratic country, with a government elected by the people to enact laws and ensure the well being of the people.
This project has gone throught the planning process, got approval from all the appropriate state agencies etc, etc.

These individuals have broken the laws of this country and have refused to give an undertaking to the legal system in this country and therefore the people to abide by the democratic laws of this country.

They have put themselves in jail and therefore will stay there until they give an undertaking to abide by the law.

Civil Disobedience usually only works when it has the support of the majority of the people against some stupid law or government decision. Its only a guess but I would say (given the turnout at marches etc)the 5 jailed do not have the support of the people of Ireland or indeed the people of Mayo.

liam88
10/08/2005, 2:20 PM
Civil Disobedience usually only works when it has the support of the majority of the people against some stupid law or government decision. Its only a guess but I would say (given the turnout at marches etc)the 5 jailed do not have the support of the people of Ireland or indeed the people of Mayo.

They have the support oifthe majority of Rossport and that is where the pipeline is.

rebs23
10/08/2005, 2:31 PM
They have the support oifthe majority of Rossport and that is where the pipeline is.
Maybe so Liam but unforunately for their sake Rossport isn't an independant republic that can make it's own laws.

monutdfc
10/08/2005, 2:34 PM
The construction of the ESB HQ on Fitzwilliam Square went through the proper planning process, complete with the blessing of an independent expert, who was a leading scholar of Georgian architecture. Protests were ignored and as a result there is now an incongruous eyesore spoiling Fitzwilliam Square.
The planing process cannot always be relied upon, and in this country is often conveniently ignored for money or votes. One of the the supposedly independent consultants whose report was relied upon in the planning process in this case has Shell as a major shareholder.

dahamsta
10/08/2005, 2:46 PM
The old Telecom Eireann building on Lapps Quay in Cork is another perfect example of the horrors of the Irish planning system. The existing building was bad enough, but then they tacked a shapeless monstrosity onto the side of it. The person responsible for approving that horror should be shot.

adam

bigmac
10/08/2005, 2:49 PM
Ok folks, I'm a geologist with experience in the oil industry and I'm a little taken aback at some of the comments on this thread. A couple of facts should be pointed out here.

Firstly, the plans for the Corrib field were drawn up and submitted by Enterprise Oil, an Irish company which was subsequently bought out by Shell. Therefore the "us against the big evil corporation" line is not strictly valid.

With regards to the Nigeria situation, the major stakeholders in that operation are in fact the Nigerian state oil company.

The two people executed were killed despite strong protests and appeals from Shell, who did not have "a very heavy hand in fabricating evidence" in relation to the case. The two executed were convicted of sabotaging a government owned pipeline, which had absolutely nothing to do with Shell. I appreciate the strength of your feelings but in this situation I think your anger should be directed at the Nigerian government, rather than the oil company. The government is undeniably corrupt and it is they who are pocketing money from the state company, not Shell who are lining their pockets.

I assume that with people's keen desire to boycott Shell for moral reasons they also refrain from wearing Nike clothes, or drinking non-fairtrade coffee or buying any products that are made in China, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines... the list can continue as long as you like.




Incidentally, I suspect that had the original plans included an offshore processing platform, a similar sized rumpus would have arisen over pollution fears from the terminal and loss of possible jobs for the Mayo area. The technology used in the project proposal (sub sea manifold extraction systems) are far less likely to pollute than semi submersible drilling platforms.

bigmac
10/08/2005, 2:57 PM
Lest I be accused of oil-company bias (I am a geologist after all, though I do not work for an oil company), this is an extract from Amnesty International's annual report. I draw your attention to the final line. Note that the report makes no mention of any human rights violations or complicity in any such acts by any oil companies.


There was continuing violence in the Niger Delta and reports of excessive use of force by the security forces or law enforcement officials. Many hundreds of people were reportedly killed in the Delta, Bayelsa and Rivers States in 2004. The economic, social and cultural rights of the people in the Niger Delta – the main oil-producing region in the country – continued in general to be unfulfilled, leading to increasing frustration and tension both within and between communities. The situation was exacerbated by the easy availability of guns in the region. Oil company employees and assets, such as pipelines, were frequently targeted for attack and sabotage.