Historical squad comparison

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Breen wasn't released, his contract expired and he decided he was going to find another club.

Oh right, like I said, it was a long time ago. He didn't really land on his feet though. Didn't play often for a relegated West Ham.

[seanfhear]

Prime Finnan v prime Coleman?
Maybe Prime Coleman ~ Coleman was very good going forward but was always a little bit dodgy defensively ~ ~ That weakness is even much more obvious now as he is declining ( sadly ) ~ Prime Finnan was also a very good player ~ it's very close.

[Eirambler]

I'd say prime Carr over either actually. Although prime Carr was on the scene for a relatively short period, but he was almost unplayable at one stage.

I think he gets forgotten about because he peaked at a young enough age and missed the 02 World Cup with injury.

[dr_peepee]

It's a bit of an unfair comparison looking back as it's hard to remember exactly the players form etc at the time but if Coleman is getting ruled out now due to age or form then you have to look at Breen at that stage. Was he already released by Coventry at the time of the world cup or was he released after? West Ham picked him up but he didn't play much for them. So I think Egan would be ahead of him along with 3 or 4 others. If you're going on transfer fees then wouldn't Collins be ahead of him?

Collins of 2022 would not yet be ahead of Breen of 2002. In a few years, very likely……. Sure Dunne was in the 2002 squad and couldn’t get in ahead of Breen.

But your explicit statement was Egan over Breen. As pointed out, Breen wasn’t released from Coventry. He ran down the contract to capitalise on a lucrative move after the WC. He was a better player than you’re giving him credit for. He had his squeaky bum moments too though.

You’re also wrong about Stan!!

[Kingdom]

Boomshakalaka, this is a tad personal, but not asked in a manner designed to hurt: would you mind giving a rough idea of how old you are?

[seanfhear]

I'd say prime Carr over either actually. Although prime Carr was on the scene for a relatively short period, but he was almost unplayable at one stage.

I think he gets forgotten about because he peaked at a young enough age and missed the 02 World Cup with injury.
Stephen Carr was certainly one of those that ~ ~ Could have been very very very high level ~ Robbed of that by injury unfortunately.

Full backs for Ireland have had a particularly hard time of it e.g Dave Langan , Jimmy Holmes, Jim Beglin, Stephen Carr, Seamás Coleman ~ All of these had injuries that stopped them coming back to the level ( to various degrees ) they were previously at.

Is there something about the fullback positions that make full backs more prone to serious injury ~ I mean in football generally ? !

Maybe wingers as well but fullbacks for Ireland have a hell of a bad time of it ! !

[Eirambler]

Collins of 2022 would not yet be ahead of Breen of 2002. In a few years, very likely……. Sure Dunne was in the 2002 squad and couldn’t get in ahead of Breen.

But your explicit statement was Egan over Breen. As pointed out, Breen wasn’t released from Coventry. He ran down the contract to capitalise on a lucrative move after the WC. He was a better player than you’re giving him credit for. He had his squeaky bum moments too though.

You’re also wrong about Stan!!

That was early years Dunne in fairness - seen at that point as someone with potential but he had serious lifestyle and weight management issues at that point. 2002 Dunne was in no way comparable to the player he went on to be 5 to 10 years later.

I've said my piece on Breen recently enough on here, so I won't go into it in too much detail again. He's seems like a lovely fella, but he's honestly one of the most overrated Irish players of the last 25 years. I'd have any of Egan, Collins or O'Shea (Dara) as they are today ahead of 2002 Gary Breen. Easily. I think people must have forgotten all his errors with the passing of time, but his concentration lapses, game after game, had to be seen to be believed.

[Razors left peg]

That was early years Dunne in fairness - seen at that point as someone with potential but he had serious lifestyle and weight management issues at that point. 2002 Dunne was in no way comparable to the player he went on to be 5 to 10 years later.

I've said my piece on Breen recently enough on here, so I won't go into it in too much detail again. He's seems like a lovely fella, but he's honestly one of the most overrated Irish players of the last 25 years. I'd have any of Egan, Collins or O'Shea (Dara) as they are today ahead of 2002 Gary Breen. Easily. I think people must have forgotten all his errors with the passing of time, but his concentration lapses, game after game, had to be seen to be believed.

But, but, but...didn't we all dream of a team of Gary Breens

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Collins of 2022 would not yet be ahead of Breen of 2002. In a few years, very likely……. Sure Dunne was in the 2002 squad and couldn’t get in ahead of Breen.

But your explicit statement was Egan over Breen. As pointed out, Breen wasn’t released from Coventry. He ran down the contract to capitalise on a lucrative move after the WC. He was a better player than you’re giving him credit for. He had his squeaky bum moments too though.

You’re also wrong about Stan!!

The lucrative deal he got for West Ham which lasted a year? And then signed for Sunderland on a free. I've been to Wikipedia.

Yes, Egan over Breen but I'd also have Collins and Duffy ahead of 2002 Breen and Staunton.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Boomshakalaka, this is a tad personal, but not asked in a manner designed to hurt: would you mind giving a rough idea of how old you are?

82 years young.

[Supreme feet]

I'd have today's crop of centre-backs ahead of 2002's. Cunningham was out of form, Staunton was past it, O'Brien and Dunne were raw. Breen's form in that WC took everyone by surprise - he was a bit of a liability the rest of the time. Collins is a seriously impressive defender who could have an elite-level career; DOS and Egan are big, solid, mobile units who are well able to play ball.

Cullen is on a par with Holland and Kinsella, but with a higher ceiling than both IMO. The rest of the current squad doesn't compare to 2002.

Bazunu's learning his trade. Molumby and Knight could go either way in their careers, both may be a bit too technically limited to make it at EPL level. Coleman is done, and Doherty is hot and cold; we're woefully inadequate at LB/LWB, and will be for the foreseeable future (by contrast, despite his lack of pace, Ian Harte had played in UEFA Cup and Champions League semi-finals, and was one of the best dead-ball specialists in Europe). I'm on board the Ferguson hype train, but it's early days. Our other young strikers have shown glimpses of talent, but are all very unproven, even at Championship level.

Richard Sadlier was left out of the 2002 squad despite scoring 14 goals for Millwall that year, and we could also afford to leave out Steven Reid (until Kennedy got injured), John O'Shea, Stephen McPhail and Colin Healy, who would all walk into our squad now.

[dr_peepee]

The lucrative deal he got for West Ham which lasted a year? And then signed for Sunderland on a free. I've been to Wikipedia.

Yep. The absence of the transfer fee compensation to a selling club can result in it being very lucrative for the player signing on, at that level. After an excellent world cup, some great leverage too. It was only a one year deal so maybe the previous failed medical player a part. Or maybe he thought he could continue the world cup form through the season and leverage a better move. Who knows.

No doubt he got a decent wedge going Sunderland too..

He wasn’t God by any stretch. As ER points out. But he was better than you’re giving him credit for. And Egan.

[Jd2793]

our cbs in 02 were defenders, we have footballers there now.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yep. The absence of the transfer fee compensation to a selling club can result in it being very lucrative for the player signing on, at that level. After an excellent world cup, some great leverage too. It was only a one year deal so maybe the previous failed medical player a part. Or maybe he thought he could continue the world cup form through the season and leverage a better move. Who knows.

No doubt he got a decent wedge going Sunderland too..

He wasn’t God by any stretch. As ER points out. But he was better than you’re giving him credit for. And Egan.

Or maybe he wasn't really wanted by many apart from loyal Mick? I'm not saying he was awful, I just would have many of our current crop ahead of him.

[Supreme feet]

our cbs in 02 were defenders, we have footballers there now.

The likes of Egan, Collins and O'Shea are all big, strong, athletic, aggressive lads who are well able to put their bodies on the line and put a foot in. Breen and O'Brien were notable for lacking in power and aggression, I remember both being bullied by Cypriot forwards, among others, at different times.

Staunton wasn't even a natural CB, and it told at times, particularly the home games against Portugal and Holland in 01; we could have been 4 down at half time in both. Roy Keane bailed him and Dunne out time and again.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The likes of Egan, Collins and O'Shea are all big, strong, athletic, aggressive lads who are well able to put their bodies on the line and put a foot in. Breen and O'Brien were notable for lacking in power and aggression, I remember both being bullied by Cypriot forwards, among others, at different times.

Staunton wasn't even a natural CB, and it told at times, particularly the home games against Portugal and Holland in 01; we could have been 4 down at half time in both. Roy Keane bailed him and Dunne out time and again.

People are looking back at players in the World Cup and are remembering them fondly because of that but they are misjudging the standard of these players at the time. Without the Keane's, Duff and Given, those players wouldn't have got near the 2002 World Cup. Especially without Roy Keane as you have said.

As stated, Breen and Staunton weren't great centre backs, Harte was slow and easily exposed, Holland and Kinsella were workmanlike but not much more, Kilbane was an average enough winger, Kelly wasn't a right midfielder and his legs weren't the same at that stage.

[Razors left peg]

I think there's an assumption here with some that the Premiership has only gotten good in the last 10 years.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I think there's an assumption here with some that the Premiership has only gotten good in the last 10 years.

The premiership/first division has always been 'good'. Not sure of your point.

I think some might be picking up the wrong end of the stick. I think some current players would be ahead of some 02 players but none of these would get near the 80's, early 90's team.

It's not recency bias. Saying that, the 80's/90's players would be playing for lesser clubs today as well. Just making objective views of players is all.

[Supreme feet]

People are looking back at players in the World Cup and are remembering them fondly because of that but they are misjudging the standard of these players at the time. Without the Keane's, Duff and Given, those players wouldn't have got near the 2002 World Cup. Especially without Roy Keane as you have said.

As stated, Breen and Staunton weren't great centre backs, Harte was slow and easily exposed, Holland and Kinsella were workmanlike but not much more, Kilbane was an average enough winger, Kelly wasn't a right midfielder and his legs weren't the same at that stage.

The Welsh team that got to the Euro semis in '16 was also a workmanlike side with a few elite-level players. That's all you need sometimes. A core of top-level players, hard workers around them, a bit of luck, and the confidence and momentum that comes with a few good results.

Mick got a lucky break in being forced to play McAteer and Dunne against the Netherlands away after Babb and Kennedy got arrested; we got a great result, McAteer scored and assisted, and Dunne was MOTM, with a goal-saving tackle in the last minute. If we'd lost that game, the rest of the group would have been an uphill struggle, and McCarthy would have lost his job.

Brian Kerr, a few years later, was caught by two freak sucker-punch results against Israel when we were in control of both games, and the group; we ended up finishing fourth, and he ended up sacked. There wasn't much talent-wise between those two squads. Just luck, confidence, and momentum. Games between 1st and 4th seeds (and sometimes 5th) are often decided by very fine margins, look at the games under Trap when we needed Robbie, Doyler, or a dodgy referee decision, to dig us out of a hole.

But a small country really needs those three-four top-class players, if they're to stand any chance of overachieving at this level. We don't have them (yet).

[seanfhear]

The Welsh team that got to the Euro semis in '16 was also a workmanlike side with a few elite-level players. That's all you need sometimes. A core of top-level players, hard workers around them, a bit of luck, and the confidence and momentum that comes with a few good results.

Mick got a lucky break in being forced to play McAteer and Dunne against the Netherlands away after Babb and Kennedy got arrested; we got a great result, McAteer scored and assisted, and Dunne was MOTM, with a goal-saving tackle in the last minute. If we'd lost that game, the rest of the group would have been an uphill struggle, and McCarthy would have lost his job.

Brian Kerr, a few years later, was caught by two freak sucker-punch results against Israel when we were in control of both games, and the group; we ended up finishing fourth, and he ended up sacked. There wasn't much talent-wise between those two squads. Just luck, confidence, and momentum. Games between 1st and 4th seeds (and sometimes 5th) are often decided by very fine margins, look at the games under Trap when we needed Robbie, Doyler, or a dodgy referee decision, to dig us out of a hole.

But a small country really needs those three-four top-class players, if they're to stand any chance of overachieving at this level. We don't have them (yet).
Re; Brian Kerr, Once might be unlucky, twice might be careless / other !

[tetsujin1979]

Prime Finnan v prime Coleman?
Finnan suffers a little by playing in that Liverpool team. It was hard to stand out in that side, especially for a full back. He played in two Champions League finals*, a World Cup, the UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup, and FIFA World Club Championship, and was named in the team of the season in three different divisions. He was an excellent player.

Coleman is an excellent player in two average to decent sides, and stands out more because of this

*I think Steve Heighway is the only other Irish player to do this.

[tetsujin1979]

Brian Kerr, a few years later, was caught by two freak sucker-punch results against Israel when we were in control of both games, and the group; we ended up finishing fourth, and he ended up sacked. There wasn't much talent-wise between those two squads. Just luck, confidence, and momentum. Games between 1st and 4th seeds (and sometimes 5th) are often decided by very fine margins, look at the games under Trap when we needed Robbie, Doyler, or a dodgy referee decision, to dig us out of a hole.Kerr made his own luck against Israel. Instead of making a like-for-like swap when Robbie Keane had to go off injured by bringing on Stephen Elliott, he brought on Graham Kavanagh, moved Kilbane out to the left, and Duff up front, despite us controlling the middle of the park and Duff causing havoc on the left. There was little we could have done about their two goals - a once in a career header, and a weak penalty - but we were in control of that game until Kerr's unnecessary changes,

[seanfhear]

Finnan suffers a little by playing in that Liverpool team. It was hard to stand out in that side, especially for a full back. He played in two Champions League finals*, a World Cup, the UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup, and FIFA World Club Championship, and was named in the team of the season in three different divisions. He was an excellent player.

Coleman is an excellent player in two average to decent sides, and stands out more because of this

*I think Steve Heighway is the only other Irish player to do this.


Steve Heighway ~ Fantastic player ~ Maybe in the top 10 to have ever played for Ireland

[third policeman]

Steve Heighway ~ Fantastic player ~ Maybe in the top 10 to have ever played for Ireland

Think he would have got more recognition if he's played for England. It used to annoy me at the time that Keegan was seen as Liverpool's outstanding player when he wasn't blessed with outstanding ability, just made the most of what he had. I saw Heighway playing in the reserves alongside Whelan and Sheedy after he had lost a bit of pace and wasn't getting picked by Paisley. He was playing as a centre midfield player and absolutely controlled the game. There was a tendency to automatically put technically gifted, skilful players on the wing.

[seanfhear]

Think he would have got more recognition if he's played for England. It used to annoy me at the time that Keegan was seen as Liverpool's outstanding player when he wasn't blessed with outstanding ability, just made the most of what he had. I saw Heighway playing in the reserves alongside Whelan and Sheedy after he had lost a bit of pace and wasn't getting picked by Paisley. He was playing as a centre midfield player and absolutely controlled the game. There was a tendency to automatically put technically gifted, skilful players on the wing.
He certainly hardly ever wasted the ball when he was playing on the wing for Liverpool ~ ~ A great example to all wingers.

[pineapple stu]

Little-known fact about Heighway - he turned down a move to UCD in 1981, to keep match fitness ahead of the vital upcoming World Cup qualifier against Holland. (The US season had finished weeks earlier)

He was dropped from the Ireland squad, we drew 2-2 and missed out on goal difference, and Highway never played for Ireland again.

[tetsujin1979]

Wow, real sliding doors moment there

[third policeman]

Finnan suffers a little by playing in that Liverpool team. It was hard to stand out in that side, especially for a full back. He played in two Champions League finals*, a World Cup, the UEFA Cup, UEFA Super Cup, and FIFA World Club Championship, and was named in the team of the season in three different divisions. He was an excellent player.

Coleman is an excellent player in two average to decent sides, and stands out more because of this

*I think Steve Heighway is the only other Irish player to do this.

I thought this couldn’t be right. Lawrenson and Whelan played in the Heysel defeat to Juventus as well as each playing in a winning final.

[tetsujin1979]

You're right. I had checked the honours section on Whelan's Wikipedia page, which lists the win in 1984, but doesn't include the loss in 1985 Finnan's page includes both finals he played in, 2005 and 2007

[samhaydenjr]

The premiership/first division has always been 'good'. Not sure of your point.

I think some might be picking up the wrong end of the stick. I think some current players would be ahead of some 02 players but none of these would get near the 80's, early 90's team.

It's not recency bias. Saying that, the 80's/90's players would be playing for lesser clubs today as well. Just making objective views of players is all.

I think Razor's point is that saying our Championship players of today are as good as the Premier League/First Division players of yesteryear is wrong because the Premier League was good back in the time of earlier squads - that we're giving players today too much credit based on an unfounded belief that it's harder to get to play in the Premier League now than it was ten years ago.

Now maybe he has a bit of a point when you only go back ten years - but go back to 2002 and you find that the Premier League was definitely not as competitive a place as it is now, in terms of breaking into it as a player - for several structural reasons it still primarily featured the best in Britain and Ireland, whereas nowadays it hosts the best in the world. The effects of the Bosman ruling were still only starting to take hold, Eastern European countries were yet to accede to the EU, there was only a tiny fraction of African and Asian players playing at Premier League level as there are today, plus there are far more players from South America choosing the EPL. Plus EPL clubs now have the budgets to have huge academies with players drawn from around the globe.

[elatedscum]

The reality is, it’s very close together - we’re arguing about the cusp of the change. On one hand, John Egan probably would have been playing purely premier league football then - let’s say for West Ham. On the other hand, he’s probably more or less at that level now. I could pick a dozen premier league centre halves playing now who I prefer Egan to. Would Gary Doherty have been a spurs player - or Stephen Kelly? Not a chance - but the evolution of the league between say 1992 and 2002 was far far greater than between 2012 and 2022.

[elatedscum]

I think the first big step was the arrival of Wenger in around 1996. That really accelerated the number of international players arriving, along with general professionalism of the game etc. In Wenger’s first 12 months at the club, he signed 11 senior players: 10 foreign players and an English back-up keeper (including the likes of Viera, Overmars, Petit, Anelka). It wasn’t just European lads either, the likes of Kanu arrived a season later and that Wenger side had a number of excellent African players joining. Chelsea weren’t far behind. Liverpool’s houllier appointment signalled the same direction.

The next big one for me is, Abramovich taking over Chelsea in 2003. That money flooded down the league so fast, to West Ham, to Charlton, to Blackburn. And there was a wave of transfer inflation cause by it, which helped the lower teams. The premier league has always been uniquely equitable with it’s distribution of money, so there’s always been a far greater level of parity than in any other major league. Also, each tv deal was a milestone in and of itself.

But that era, between 2003 and 2009 was a really golden era in terms of the quality of the league. That Arsenal invincibles team were incredible. Phenomenal players. Then Mourinho’s Chelsea took took it to a whole other level. Wiped the floor with the previous points total. Barely conceded a goal. In that time, Benitez built a really good Liverpool team and United were always there or thereabouts. All of the sides, reached at least the champions league final, if they didn’t win it. The six best teams in Europe were those 4 plus Barcelona and Milan.

The emergence and re-emergence of City, PSG, Real and Bayern since then has changed the dynamics. For example, if Mbappe was born 20 years previous, he’d have signed for Arsenal - not PSG.

[elatedscum]

The effects of the Bosman ruling were still only starting to take hold, Eastern European countries were yet to accede to the EU, there was only a tiny fraction of African and Asian players playing at Premier League level as there are today, plus there are far more players from South America choosing the EPL. Plus EPL clubs now have the budgets to have huge academies with players drawn from around the globe.

The Bosman ruling was in 1995, Edgar Davids was on the move in 1996. It didn’t take 7 years to adapt.

The first Brazilians arrived at Boro, Juninho and Emerson, back in 1996. Due to the old work permit system, South American players often tended to go to Italy and Spain first. At which point they could be priced out of a move to England. That’s only changed in recent years really and it’s probably going to increase in the next 5 years as it’s easier than ever to sign a Brazilian u20 international, straight from a team in Brazil - which a decade ago was impossible unless they had an EU passport. As for asia, very few Asian players in the league now, i can only think of 4 (hwang at wolves, Mitoma at brighton, son at spurs and tomiyasu at Arsenal). There’s always been a smattering of lads from Japan, China and South Korea.

[elatedscum]

EPL clubs now have the budgets to have huge academies with players drawn from around the globe.

Slightly off topic but - RE the academies, as a Liverpool fan, I remember in the summer of 06, Liverpool signed a tonne of lads from abroad. The academy was awash with lads from Spain, Austria, Germany, Ghana, Argentina, Brazil, Finland, Sweden, Australia, Denmark, France, Hungary, Paraguay etc etc etc - far more than there are today. And I think Liverpool were probably the last of the big teams to that party - United, Arsenal and Chelsea had a tonne of young international players.

Certainly from Liverpool’s perspective - they backed off from that approach about a decade ago and currently 50 of their 60 academy players are UK born. Whereas the side that won the reserve league final in 2008 was

Gulacsi - Hungary

Darby - England
San Jose - Spain
Huth - Paraguay
Insua - Argentina

El Zhar - Morrocco
Plessis - France
Lucas - Brazil
Flynn - Scotland

Brouwjer - Netherlands
Nemeth - Hungary

Subs:
Bouzanis - Australia
Kelly - England
Simon - Hungary
Pacheco - Spain
Lindfield - England

I think there was a feeling it was easier to work within from a really early age than externally later on…

[Eirambler]

The big difference for me is the quality of teams at the top of the league, this is really squeezing the space available for middle of the road players in the Premier League. 20 years ago there was a big 2 of Arsenal and Man United, then over time it became a big 4, then a big 6. You have to be fairly exceptional to play for any of those teams as we know.

The most recent example was the buyout of Newcastle just over a year ago, that makes it effectively a big seven now. There you went from a situation where you had two middle of the road Irish players - Hendrick and Clark - getting decent Premier League minutes to them basically being bombed out of the league overnight. Whereas 20 years ago there were maybe 16 or 17 teams a non-exceptional player could hope to sign for, that's down to 13 now - and three of those 13 are getting relegated every year. So it's a lot harder to build a steady Premier League career unless you're a top class player, there just isn't enough space there to accommodate solid pros like there used to be.

Like it or not, none of the "big seven" are going to sign John Egan. So the space available for him to play in the Premier League is squeezed and he finds himself having to do two years in the Championship at the peak of his career.

[Supreme feet]

If I was picking players for my five-a-side team, and I had the choice of present-day Egan, O'Shea, Molumby and Cullen, or the 2002 versions of Breen, Cunningham, Holland and Kinsella, I'd choose the former four all day long, purely on the basis of the superior technical and tactical coaching that modern players get, and the much better standard of physical conditioning. But that's not unique to Ireland. Camavinga, Kante and Tchouameni are all physical and technical powerhouses compared to the likes of Deschamps, Boghossian and Petit.

In 2000-02, the four I've named were all experienced and battle-hardened from playing several seasons of Premier League football, often as captains, which gave much better preparation for the intensity of international football. Even the relegated teams in 2002 had players like Finidi George, Georgi Kinkladze, Muzzy Izzet, Dennis Wise and Fabrizio Ravanelli. Holland, Kinsella, etc, were testing themselves against seasoned internationals every week.

Whereas these days, the likes of O'Shea and Molumby have to raise and alter their game to get to the pitch of international football, as the style of play in the Championship, for all its riches, can range from comically loose, open, and defensively naive (see Connolly's goals yesterday) to putrid, one-dimensional hoofball. Which is why it's often good craic to watch, but definitely not where I'd like the majority of our players to be playing.

[John83]

...Holland and Kinsella were workmanlike but not much more...
Holland was the beating heart of an Ipswich side that finished sixth immediately after promotion. They only fell back once teams learned to put two players on Holland. He's head and shoulders ahead of every midfielder we have now. Add to that, he was nigh indestructable: he went years between missing a game to injury. Kinsella... maybe Cullen's at his level. Maybe.

People underestimated those two because they weren't Roy Keane.

[seanfhear]

Holland was the beating heart of an Ipswich side that finished sixth immediately after promotion. They only fell back once teams learned to put two players on Holland. He's head and shoulders ahead of every midfielder we have now. Add to that, he was nigh indestructable: he went years between missing a game to injury. Kinsella... maybe Cullen's at his level. Maybe.

People underestimated those two because they weren't Roy Keane.
I always like Holland and Kinsella ~ ~ Ya never doubted that they were giving it their best ~ ~ Different times maybe.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Holland was the beating heart of an Ipswich side that finished sixth immediately after promotion. They only fell back once teams learned to put two players on Holland. He's head and shoulders ahead of every midfielder we have now. Add to that, he was nigh indestructable: he went years between missing a game to injury. Kinsella... maybe Cullen's at his level. Maybe.

People underestimated those two because they weren't Roy Keane.

Probably some truth in that. I remember Holland as a solid midfielder but could be anonymous in games. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly. Kinsella was limited from my memory. They would probably get into our current side because midfield is a section we're light on. We've got hopes for Molumby, Knight and a few others like that. They have the potential to be better than the 02 midfield.

[tetsujin1979]

It looks like the best from the current squad would be competing with numbers 15-23 on the 2002 squad

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

It looks like the best from the current squad would be competing with numbers 15-23 on the 2002 squad

Not sure, I think the general consensus appears to be that our current centre backs would be starting and Cullen would be in midfield. Given, Duff and Keane certain starters and it looks like Finnan would be selected ahead of present day Coleman. Then there's debate over the other positions. Harte or Doherty or maybe Kelly or Doherty for the right midfield position. Not many comments on the McClean v Kilbane issue. I really think they have so many similarities that it's a 50/50.

That's a minimum of 3 starters with debate over 2 more for the current squad.

[dr_peepee]

Consensus?

And Kilbane over McClean.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Consensus?

And Kilbane over McClean.

Yeah, I think it was only you who said they'd pick Breen and Staunton. Everyone else was saying our current centre backs as far as I remember.

Kilbane 110 games and 8 goals, McClean 96 games 11 goals. Both tried to use their speed to knock the ball past defenders and cross it in but both also lacked elite technique. Limited in many ways but ultra professional, loyal and as committed as any players we've ever had. It's the definition of a 50/50 in my book but maybe others don't see it the same.

[seanfhear]

Consensus?

And Kilbane over McClean.
Kilbane for me ~ ~ He played at much higher level with Everton ( and even at some of his other clubs ) than McClean and was a better player for Ireland as well. Played winger / midfielder and a little at left back ( not his best position ) ~ ~ Kilbane's best was much better than McCleans best.

[third policeman]

Yeah, I think it was only you who said they'd pick Breen and Staunton. Everyone else was saying our current centre backs as far as I remember.

Kilbane 110 games and 8 goals, McClean 96 games 11 goals. Both tried to use their speed to knock the ball past defenders and cross it in but both also lacked elite technique. Limited in many ways but ultra professional, loyal and as committed as any players we've ever had. It's the definition of a 50/50 in my book but maybe others don't see it the same.

Kilbane had way more ability and football intelligence than McClean. Played an outstanding game in centre mid alongside Keane against France at Stade de France during the Kerr era. Kilbane played virtually his entire career in the PL and notwithstanding the improvement in quality, I genuinely don’t think McClean would have got into that Everton team at that time. He’s a totally honest and committed to the cause pro, but McClean is lucky to have been around at a time when we have had one of the weakest group of players in half a century.

[samhaydenjr]

The Bosman ruling was in 1995, Edgar Davids was on the move in 1996. It didn’t take 7 years to adapt.

The first Brazilians arrived at Boro, Juninho and Emerson, back in 1996. Due to the old work permit system, South American players often tended to go to Italy and Spain first. At which point they could be priced out of a move to England. That’s only changed in recent years really and it’s probably going to increase in the next 5 years as it’s easier than ever to sign a Brazilian u20 international, straight from a team in Brazil - which a decade ago was impossible unless they had an EU passport. As for asia, very few Asian players in the league now, i can only think of 4 (hwang at wolves, Mitoma at brighton, son at spurs and tomiyasu at Arsenal). There’s always been a smattering of lads from Japan, China and South Korea.

Haven't had a chance to look at full squads yet (might be a little too much work!) but just looking at club captains as a potential indicator of change, in 2001/02, three of the club captains were not British or Irish (three were Irish), whereas nine of the club captains this season are, Seamus Coleman being the only Irish member of that group

[John83]

On Kilbane vs McClean, there's not much between their peaks, but 2002 Kilbane was at his peak at 25 years old, and 2023 McClean is coming to the end: he'll turn 34 in April.

[tetsujin1979]

Also Kilbane had a much longer time at his peak, and adapted his game to play in multiple positions

[seanfhear]

Also Kilbane had a much longer time at his peak, and adapted his game to play in multiple positions
Kilbane , better all round player with some weakness alright.

[nigel-harps1954]

Kilbane at his peak was well above McClean at his.