Johnny Kenny F Shamrock Rovers b.2003

[tommy_c12000]

Don’t see prior thread. Returns to LOI football it seems with Shamrock Rovers, failed to impress in the Scottish second tier. QP doing well and scoring goals, should have been able to do force his way into their team if he’s truly destined to be an impactful international for us. Another overinflated LOI export? Or will he eventually come good?

[Jd2793]

only 1 season of senior football behind him, lets see how he does with shams.

[CSAD]

Don’t see prior thread. Returns to LOI football it seems with Shamrock Rovers, failed to impress in the Scottish second tier. QP doing well and scoring goals, should have been able to do force his way into their team if he’s truly destined to be an impactful international for us. Another overinflated LOI export? Or will he eventually come good?

Perfect, now he just needs a season to work his way out of Celtic before it’s too late.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think returning home at 19 after failing to make an impression at Queen's Park is quite "perfect"...

[CSAD]

I don't think returning home at 19 after failing to make an impression at Queen's Park is quite "perfect"...

Getting anywhere that’s outside of Scotland is perfect.

[pineapple stu]

That's very short-sighted...

If he didn't make any impact at Celtic - or Queen's Park - in 18 months, then maybe the problem's not with Celtic. Ditto the other guys there.

(And obviously best of luck to him at Rovers, if that's where he ends up)

[Jd2793]

thing is he seemed to do well with celtic b (yeah terrible standard) so they obviously felt he was ready to play on a promotion chaser in tier below. its probably high time celtic looked at the success rate they have at loaning lads to the tiers below. something is off somewhere, whether it be manager style of play or players lack of suitable attributes. its unquestionably a waste of time to be sending a lot of these lads down there.

[CSAD]

That's very short-sighted...

If he didn't make any impact at Celtic - or Queen's Park - in 18 months, then maybe the problem's not with Celtic. Ditto the other guys there.

(And obviously best of luck to him at Rovers, if that's where he ends up)

It isn’t though,

Any young player Celtic touch turns to **** either through their progression plan or their loan moves. There’s a reason little to no Scottish under 21 players move there, they obviously know far more about how bad Celtic are in this regard than our players would. Even a player like Hjelde, young Norwegian CB, who they rated very highly got the hell out of there as soon as a PL team showed interest.

Hopefully he has common sense and gets the f**k out of there pronto and Lawal follows, rumours of Brentford circling him, they are both 19 so they still have time make up for lost time they wasted at Celtic.

[CSAD]

thing is he seemed to do well with celtic b (yeah terrible standard) so they obviously felt he was ready to play on a promotion chaser in tier below. its probably high time celtic looked at the success rate they have at loaning lads to the tiers below. something is off somewhere, whether it be manager style of play or players lack of suitable attributes. its unquestionably a waste of time to be sending a lot of these lads down there.

But that right there lies the problem, what the **** is a player with 11 LOI goals doing playing in the 5th division in Scotland? Also he showed at Sligo he was ready, the Scottish championship wouldn’t be as difficult as the LOI so he he goes from looking like a star in the LOI to looking out of his depth at the championship side in Scotland after a year at Celtic then something has gone wrong in that year in between.

[pineapple stu]

Or maybe 11 goals in the LoI isn't as necessarily as impressive as we'd like to think it is?

"He showed at Sligo he was ready' - what does that actually mean?

[Jd2793]

Or maybe 11 goals in the LoI isn't as necessarily as impressive as we'd like to think it is?

"He showed at Sligo he was ready' - what does that actually mean?

you wont find me disputing that anyway. people vastly overrate the quality of the league here. kenny only had 1 full season of adult football , by no means should he have been seen as a cert to make it. do think celtic have an issue with either talent id or loan pathways for players (probably both tbh) . the lower leagues in scotland dont seem conducive to academy players progressing or developing. saying this with irish tinted specs on albeit thing people tend to over exaggerate the level of "talent" we've had at celtic underage over the years.

[CSAD]

Or maybe 11 goals in the LoI isn't as necessarily as impressive as we'd like to think it is?

"He showed at Sligo he was ready' - what does that actually mean?

He’s playing in the ****ing championship in Scotland… if he was struggling in the SPL I could accept that but in the championship I’m sorry but no.

Or maybe (just maybe) Celtic have got their development of a player wrong for the umpteenth time.

[CSAD]

you wont find me disputing that anyway. people vastly overrate the quality of the league here. kenny only had 1 full season of adult football , by no means should he have been seen as a cert to make it. do think celtic have an issue with either talent id or loan pathways for players (probably both tbh) . the lower leagues in scotland dont seem conducive to academy players progressing or developing. saying this with irish tinted specs on albeit thing people tend to over exaggerate the level of "talent" we've had at celtic underage over the years.

Who overrates it? No one saying it’s great but you shouldn’t go from scoring 11 goals in the SPL to looking pish in the Scottish 2nd division.

Can we just stop making b/s excuses for Celtic and just accept it’s a terrible place to develop talent? The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. Even Scottish underage players stay well clear…what does that tell you?

[Jd2793]

Who overrates it? No one saying it’s great but you shouldn’t go from scoring 11 goals in the SPL to looking pish in the Scottish 2nd division.

Can we just stop making b/s excuses for Celtic and just accept it’s a terrible place to develop talent? The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. Even Scottish underage players stay well clear…what does that tell you?


loads of people seem to think scoring 11 goals in LOI should translate into double figures in scotland 2nd tier. look the manager may not use him correctly which is on celtic for choosing the club but someone like mcmillan also struggled on moving to scotland and he was an experienced goalscorer here. kenny is very young and needs time to get up to speed with FT footballer life. id relax the cacks a small bit. he has lots of time to grow and develop.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Honestly wouldn't see much of a difference in standard between some Scottish championship clubs and some LOI clubs. You have to be exceptional to make a breakthrough at Celtic. No offence to Johnny but more talented players than him have failed.

[CSAD]

loads of people seem to think scoring 11 goals in LOI should translate into double figures in scotland 2nd tier. look the manager may not use him correctly which is on celtic for choosing the club but someone like mcmillan also struggled on moving to scotland and he was an experienced goalscorer here. kenny is very young and needs time to get up to speed with FT footballer life. id relax the cacks a small bit. he has lots of time to grow and develop.

Who are these “loads of people” ? The issue here is him going from scoring 11 in the LOI to barely looking capable of playing at Championship level that’s the problem… it’s not just the manager as these problems were there before Ange arrived, the problem is the overall culture at Celtic. Yes they can keep papering over these cracks by buying in average players from abroad but it will come back to bite them eventually.

He does and he can start by getting tf out of Celtic as soon as possible. Go on loan at Shamrock Rovers and try build momentum there and hopefully that prompts and English team to sign him or bring him into their academy.

[pineapple stu]

you wont find me disputing that anyway. people vastly overrate the quality of the league here. kenny only had 1 full season of adult football , by no means should he have been seen as a cert to make it. do think celtic have an issue with either talent id or loan pathways for players (probably both tbh) . the lower leagues in scotland dont seem conducive to academy players progressing or developing. saying this with irish tinted specs on albeit thing people tend to over exaggerate the level of "talent" we've had at celtic underage over the years.
That's a fair post I think. You look at the players at Celtic of late - Afolabi had numerous chances at other, didn't make any impression, and is now back at Bohs. Scales was singled out for their Euro exit against Bodo it seems, and has been deemed not good enough; he's dropped down to Aberdeen. Connell dropped down to the English third tier, which isn't the level of player Celtic want. Lee O'Connor is in his third season with Tranmere in the English fourth tier. There's others too presumably - but really how many calls have they gotten wrong?

I can see that a club like Celtic can be a risk for a young player - there's next to no chance of getting into the first team, the club may have one or two main prospects it's targetting in the academy and the rest (possibly including Kenny) are just padding to play alongside those prospects, so they can be developed and sold to justify the academy. Other LoI players have gone to lower SPL sides and done alright for themselves, although very few have troubled the national team (Hoolahan really the only one to make an impression I think)

One thing I will say is if Kenny is coming back to the LoI (if the Rovers move is a loan with an option to buy), then it's after a disappointingly short period of time, and you'd wonder why that is.

[pineapple stu]

the problem is the overall culture at Celtic. Yes they can keep papering over these cracks by buying in average players from abroad but it will come back to bite them eventually.
Just to be clear - are you saying Celtic shouldn't have bought the likes of Mooy, Carter-Vickers, Maeda and Juranovic (all of whom were at the World Cup) and would have been better off with Kenny/Connell/Afolabi in their team?

Cos if the former are average players, I don't know what you'd call the latter...

[CSAD]

Honestly wouldn't see much of a difference in standard between some Scottish championship clubs and some LOI clubs. You have to be exceptional to make a breakthrough at Celtic. No offence to Johnny but more talented players than him have failed.

There in lies another issue with Celtic. You shouldn’t need to be exceptional to break through at Celtic, they aren’t that good, it again speaks volumes about how terrible their progression plan is rather than them being any good.

[CSAD]

Just to be clear - are you saying Celtic shouldn't have bought the likes of Mooy, Carter-Vickers, Maeda and Juranovic (all of whom were at the World Cup) and would have been better off with Kenny/Connell/Afolabi in their team?

Cos if the former are average players, I don't know what you'd call the latter...

Nope, that’s you trying to put words in my mouth, the point is finding a decent balance between bringing in players and bringing through players from the academy.

At Celtic the idea seems to be only bring in players and give young players a-few token appearances just to give the illusion that they give youth a chance.

[pineapple stu]

Well I'm trying to work out what your point is. Why should they have a progression plan for example? They want the best first-team squad, that's all that matters really.

Celtic are a Premier League-standard club. How many 18-year-olds players have gone from LoI into a Premier League team lately?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

There in lies another issue with Celtic. You shouldn’t need to be exceptional to break through at Celtic, they aren’t that good, it again speaks volumes about how terrible their progression plan is rather than them being any good.

No, not that good but obviously our players going there aren't that good either. Celtic are miles ahead of where our players normally make a breakthrough though. You'd need to have the talent of someone like Aiden Mcgeady to make an impact.

[CSAD]

No, not that good but obviously our players going there aren't that good either. Celtic are miles ahead of where our players normally make a breakthrough though. You'd need to have the talent of someone like Aiden Mcgeady to make an impact.

Only in a Celtic fans mind they are. I don’t think even having that would matter, it’s not even talent but just the overall package. They constantly don’t look ready at all for that level, I remember Lawal in last pre season when he looked the most ready from their underage set up, looked totally out of his depth at senior level. That sadly seems to be a common trend at Celtic, and true a an extremely talented player could defy those odds but the issue with that is any player with that talent will stay 1000 km away from Celtic.

[CSAD]

Well I'm trying to work out what your point is. Why should they have a progression plan for example? They want the best first-team squad, that's all that matters really.

Celtic are a Premier League-standard club. How many 18-year-olds players have gone from LoI into a Premier League team lately?

Well conveniently picking the best foreign players they have as a way to prove your point isn’t wise. “Why should they have a progression plan”…**** me did you really just say that, try it again with a straight face.

Maybe in a Celtic fans mind they are…but many have their head shoved right up their own hole they are still licking their esophagus. No amount of chatter will ever make them a Premier league standard club.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Only in a Celtic fans mind they are. I don’t think even having that would matter, it’s not even talent but just the overall package. They constantly don’t look ready at all for that level, I remember Lawal in last pre season when he looked the most ready from their underage set up, looked totally out of his depth at senior level. That sadly seems to be a common trend at Celtic, and true a an extremely talented player could defy those odds but the issue with that is any player with that talent will stay 1000 km away from Celtic.

Your issue seems to be with Celtic. They're a fantastic and massive club but that makes it hard to get into their senior set up. Our players who've gone there might just not be up to it, we might have to accept that. It's the same as at premier League teams, it's very hard to make a breakthrough. Is that the fault of academies in England? No, it's just extremely difficult.

[pineapple stu]

Well conveniently picking the best foreign players they have as a way to prove your point isn’t wise. “Why should they have a progression plan”…**** me did you really just say that, try it again with a straight face.

Maybe in a Celtic fans mind they are…but many have their head shoved right up their own hole they are still licking their esophagus. No amount of chatter will ever make them a Premier league standard club.

Nope, genuine question - why should they have a progression plan when they can buy in better players? That's the way of the game these days. None of the Irish players I mentioned have exactly proven Celtic wrong in their judgement of them. If you're good enough, they'll take notice (or maybe try cash in). If you're not good enough, why should Celtic care? Kenny unfortunately seems to have struggled at Queen's Park, so was hardly about to move up to the Celtic first team.

(Though that said, wiki says four of the current Celtic squad came through the youth team - though obviously that's over quite a while and gives fairly low odds for any given academy player, but for a senior squad it's probably a reasonable return)

We've had a chart on here many times (and here it is again (https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/status/1446047884751867905)) before showing a rough evaluation of various European leagues based on Euro results and Celtic/Rangers come out as lower mid-table Premier League sides in it. I think that's quite reasonable.

[CSAD]

Nope, genuine question - why should they have a progression plan when they can buy in better players? That's the way of the game these days. None of the Irish players I mentioned have exactly proven Celtic wrong in their judgement of them. If you're good enough, they'll take notice (or maybe try cash in). If you're not good enough, why should Celtic care? Kenny unfortunately seems to have struggled at Queen's Park, so was hardly about to move up to the Celtic first team.

(Though that said, wiki says four of the current Celtic squad came through the youth team - though obviously that's over quite a while and gives fairly low odds for any given academy player, but for a senior squad it's probably a reasonable return)

We've had a chart on here many times (and here it is again (https://twitter.com/AndyForrester1/status/1446047884751867905)) before showing a rough evaluation of various European leagues based on Euro results and Celtic/Rangers come out as lower mid-table Premier League sides in it. I think that's quite reasonable.

Wait wait wait… let me guess…you’re a Celtic fan?!

Nope that’s not the way the game is these days, put trying to explain this is like trying talk logic with a Shamrock Rovers fan so I won’t even waste my time.

Next you can explain to me why little to no Scottish u21 players play for Celtic either? I’m noticing a pattern here.

When Kenny joined he scored 11 goals at Sligo, after a year at Celtic he is struggling at QP. What exactly has his time at Celtic done to help progress his development.

You think 4 is a reasonable return…just wow, just please don’t put the bar too high!

Only a deluded Celtic or Rangers fan actually believe their PL quality.


But anyway one question that should be asked for all this, if Celtic don’t have a progression plan then why the flying **** are these young players being advised to go there? Do their agents have a screw loose, are they being given a payment to send them to Celtic or are Celtic just lying to these youngsters and being made promises they never intend to keep.

[pineapple stu]

Not a Celtic fan. But I have been trying to bring some facts into this (Celtic haven't really rejected anyone who's come back to bite them; a direct comparison of various results has them around lower mid-table PL) and you're just spouting off. It's not helpful.

Yep, I think four is a reasonable return. Here's more facts - it's what Liverpool have at the moment for example (Jones, Kelleher, Alexander-Arnold, Phillips). Villa have two (Archer and Ramsey). Sheffield United have about six (Sharp, Arblaster, Norrington-Davies, Gordon, Jebbison, Sachdev - most of whom have played around 10 games and will probably move on before long) How many do you think they have?

I've already said that it's quite possible it's not a great place for a young player to go to. I could see it being a tough one to turn down though when you're at Sligo. How has his time at Celtic progressed him? Maybe he was a one-season wonder at Sligo? You don't seem to be willing to face any outcome here other than that Celtic are at fault.

[CSAD]

Not a Celtic fan. But I have been trying to bring some facts into this (Celtic haven't really rejected anyone who's come back to bite them; a direct comparison of various results has them around lower mid-table PL) and you're just spouting off. It's not helpful.

Yep, I think four is a reasonable return. Here's more facts - it's what Liverpool have at the moment for example (Jones, Kelleher, Alexander-Arnold, Phillips). Villa have two (Archer and Ramsey). Sheffield United have about six (Sharp, Arblaster, Norrington-Davies, Gordon, Jebbison, Sachdev - most of whom have played around 10 games and will probably move on before long) How many do you think they have?

I've already said that it's quite possible it's not a great place for a young player to go to. I could see it being a tough one to turn down though when you're at Sligo. How has his time at Celtic progressed him? Maybe he was a one-season wonder at Sligo? You don't seem to be willing to face any outcome here other than that Celtic are at fault.

That’s beacause they have ****ed up most of these players careers before they’ve even started.

Nice to see you are keeping the bar nice and high. The difference is the teams you mentioned are in the English football system, where you need to spend money, imagine how low the number would be if Celtic played in England?

“Quite possible” it’s simply not a good place, say it how it is, the evidence is there for all to see. This is the point in having good agents, the agents should advise them to stay well clear like I’d imagine Scottish agents do with their clients. I would buy the one season wonder if he was the only one, but like I’ve said there’s a pattern emerging which Kenny is the latest addition to.

Celtic are at fault though, a player playing regularly in the LOI is sent to play the Scottish 5th division for a year…how is that aiding is development? No wonder he went downhill so quickly. How you can see all this along with the previous examples I’ve given and still defend Celtic proves you really are a devoted Celtic fan.

[pineapple stu]

What - you don't need to spend money in Scotland? Bizarre logic. It's almost as if pushing the club to get into the Champions League isn't a factor for them. I hope Celtic have the receipts for the £23m they spent in the summer; they should get a refund and fo with Kenny, Afolabi and Connell instead. Did you know Kenny scored 11 goals for Sligo? He's shown he's ready (though you've never clarified what that actually means). And it would clearly have no impact on their team at all.

I'm aware I'm not a devoted Celtic fan - or any sort of Celtic fan - so the fact you keep throwing that accusation out proves to me that you're just interested in a bit of a random rant rather than any sort of discussion about it.

Come back to me when one of the Irish players rejected by Celtic does something to make them regret their call maybe.

[Jd2793]

That's a fair post I think. You look at the players at Celtic of late - Afolabi had numerous chances at other, didn't make any impression, and is now back at Bohs. Scales was singled out for their Euro exit against Bodo it seems, and has been deemed not good enough; he's dropped down to Aberdeen. Connell dropped down to the English third tier, which isn't the level of player Celtic want. Lee O'Connor is in his third season with Tranmere in the English fourth tier. There's others too presumably - but really how many calls have they gotten wrong?

I can see that a club like Celtic can be a risk for a young player - there's next to no chance of getting into the first team, the club may have one or two main prospects it's targetting in the academy and the rest (possibly including Kenny) are just padding to play alongside those prospects, so they can be developed and sold to justify the academy. Other LoI players have gone to lower SPL sides and done alright for themselves, although very few have troubled the national team (Hoolahan really the only one to make an impression I think)

One thing I will say is if Kenny is coming back to the LoI (if the Rovers move is a loan with an option to buy), then it's after a disappointingly short period of time, and you'd wonder why that is.


for celtic to be getting rid this soon it screams bad talent ID on celtics part. thinking a player was either better than they are (now) or the player not having enough upside for development (in the future). this one shines a bad light on celtics scouting for me.

[Jd2793]

people are quick to bring up afolabi but rarely mention he was let go from southampton the summer of that flash in the pan euro u19 tournament. celtic did what a lot of senior teams do and took a punt on a guy after a bright 3/4 games of tournament football. those moves rarely if ever work out.

[tetsujin1979]

He wasn't let go, they offered him a new contract and he rejected it

[Jd2793]

He wasn't let go, they offered him a new contract and he rejected it

he said at the time it was a shock to be released. doesnt sound like a guy who rejected a contract.

Towards the end of the most recent English football season, however, the 19-year-old was told he was surplus to requirements at Southampton.
“It was a bit of a shock, because I thought I was doing well. They saw other aspects and probably favoured someone else. I’m not in control of that.

[Exgrad]

people are quick to bring up afolabi but rarely mention he was let go from southampton the summer of that flash in the pan euro u19 tournament. celtic did what a lot of senior teams do and took a punt on a guy after a bright 3/4 games of tournament football. those moves rarely if ever work out.

Yep, and Lee O'Connor was let go by United, Celtic took a cheap punt on both of them, not a big deal for them. Connell a different story, but Kenny wasn't at the level to make an impact at Celtic from the little i saw of him, plenty of time for him to rebuild though. Poor advice to make the move to Celctic, particularly Kenny who had other options and who had seen the record of the other young Irish players who went there. Frimpong didnt need to get loaned to a pub team to develop, if you're good enough you'll get a chance. None of the Irish lads were.

[pineapple stu]

He wasn't let go, they offered him a new contract and he rejected it
He signed a 5-year deal in January (https://www.celticfc.com/news/2022/january/08/johnny-kenny-arrives-from-sligo-rovers/)?

[Diggs246]

He wasn't let go, they offered him a new contract and he rejected it
I think mipo rejected a contract with man u to go to the hammers as well

[CSAD]

What - you don't need to spend money in Scotland? Bizarre logic. It's almost as if pushing the club to get into the Champions League isn't a factor for them. I hope Celtic have the receipts for the £23m they spent in the summer; they should get a refund and fo with Kenny, Afolabi and Connell instead. Did you know Kenny scored 11 goals for Sligo? He's shown he's ready (though you've never clarified what that actually means). And it would clearly have no impact on their team at all.

I'm aware I'm not a devoted Celtic fan - or any sort of Celtic fan - so the fact you keep throwing that accusation out proves to me that you're just interested in a bit of a random rant rather than any sort of discussion about it.

Come back to me when one of the Irish players rejected by Celtic does something to make them regret their call maybe.

Nope that’s you putting words in my mouth again, the issue here is you comparing English and Scottish teams and think the two are on par with each other. They spent 23 million to get pumped in the CL, great work. The issue here is spending money is fine if you at least have the results to back it up and quite frankly winning a 2 team league I’m not quite sure makes up for it especially when you add in their terrible record at bringing through young players. Also you conveniently move the goal posts and only mention a-few Irish players but then ignore the fact they brought through little to no Scottish players or any nationality for that matter. It’s a trend that you seem to side step as you refuse to accept that Celtic could do anything wrong.

I will give Celtic , and Rangers, some credit though. I admire their confidence despite the absolute embarrassment they served up in Europe this season, I wish I had that confidence in life.

Nah you are, you sound just like all the other fans from Celtic I’ve spoken to. One click on these fans account and you’ll find they have a Celtic profile picture or Celtic posts in the past, sadly I can’t do that with you.

It’s really pointless even trying to explain this to you.

[CSAD]

for celtic to be getting rid this soon it screams bad talent ID on celtics part. thinking a player was either better than they are (now) or the player not having enough upside for development (in the future). this one shines a bad light on celtics scouting for me.

It could also possibly highlight that Kenny realizes he made a mistake and wants to get out of there asap. A good sign at least as he appears to have more common sense than his predecessors.

[CSAD]

Yep, and Lee O'Connor was let go by United, Celtic took a cheap punt on both of them, not a big deal for them. Connell a different story, but Kenny wasn't at the level to make an impact at Celtic from the little i saw of him, plenty of time for him to rebuild though. Poor advice to make the move to Celctic, particularly Kenny who had other options and who had seen the record of the other young Irish players who went there. Frimpong didnt need to get loaned to a pub team to develop, if you're good enough you'll get a chance. None of the Irish lads were.

But that’s the issue at Celtic. There’s no proper system at bringing through these players, if a player gets through it’s almost by accident than design. That’s why a young Irish player in particular must avoid like the plague.

[pineapple stu]

Nope that’s you putting words in my mouth again, the issue here is you comparing English and Scottish teams and think the two are on par with each other.
Why aren't they on a par with each other? I've shown they're at a similar level in playing terms. Ultimately you need to spend money to keep up in modern football. Yes, there's only two teams in Scotland, but the real money is in Europe and that's definitely competitive. I don't think Johnny Kenny or Afolabi are really going to cut it there. Why do you think bringing through young players should trump European results?


Also you conveniently move the goal posts and only mention a-few Irish players but then ignore the fact they brought through little to no Scottish players or any nationality for that matter. It’s a trend that you seem to side step as you refuse to accept that Celtic could do anything wrong.
But I've shown they've a similar number of academy players in their squad as other large clubs.

But you've ignored everything and gone off on a baseless rant again.

[tetsujin1979]

he said at the time it was a shock to be released. doesnt sound like a guy who rejected a contract.

Towards the end of the most recent English football season, however, the 19-year-old was told he was surplus to requirements at Southampton.
“It was a bit of a shock, because I thought I was doing well. They saw other aspects and probably favoured someone else. I’m not in control of that.
There was a few reports around that time that he was offered a deal
https://www.footballinsider247.com/exclusive-southampton-forward-set-to-quit-after-rejecting-new-contract/
1154056501067223041

He signed a 5-year deal in January (https://www.celticfc.com/news/2022/january/08/johnny-kenny-arrives-from-sligo-rovers/)?Afolabi, not Kenny

[pineapple stu]

Oops! Mis-read that; apologies.

[SkStu]

It seems to me that moving to Celtic is simply the wrong choice of Scottish premier league club when it comes to a LOI player who now deserves a chance to prove himself at the Scottish PL level. Comparing the fates of Kenny and Tierney at Motherwell is a good exercise. My takeaway is that Celtic take a punt and outsource development to B league and Div2 clubs whereas the smaller clubs have a more defined and achievable pathway to the first team. Aaron McEneff another who got a chance straight away and did well. Even Liam Scales has done better away from Celtic.

Players hoping to get a chance and not stagnate would do better to look at other Scottish clubs as a more viable option.

[elatedscum]

Stu - I think you’ve got this one really wrong. First the quality of our players that went to Celtic were among our best. Their time at Celtic was so detrimental to their progression that they’re now viewed as worse players than they would have been.

The issues Celtic have are in a few different areas. They have certain inherent advantages, in that a dominant side like Celtic can often blood young players into a team when they’re winning games easily. They coast through games and often seasons, which provides amble opportunities to give game time to young prospects - if they chose that development path.

The issue is, Celtic have historically had real success with the likes of Van Dijk, Wanyama, Dembele, Ajer, Edouard, Frimpong. So basically every year they buy a handful of cheap dudes in their early 20s with decent potential from a decent league and hope to flip them for 20m in a 2-3 years time. The majority don’t really work out but if one in every three does, it’s a success. Say for example with Jota now. He’s gotta be worth 3 or 4 times what they paid for him just a year ago.

Then they also try pick up the best of the rest in Scotland and ask them to step up. Guys like Taylor and Turnbull are examples of this.

There’s hit and miss with those both those sets of players, so the squad ends up really bloated, I remember it was around 35 senior players at one point recently. The J-league is also a new market where they’re brought players across.

The issue is, when you’re bringing in 5-10 fringy dudes every seasons, you end up trying to find minutes for them to see how good they are. And all the game time that could have gone to allow a youth player to progress instead goes to Partrick Klimala or Ismaila Soro or whoever.

There’s certain issues outside their control - the development in Scotland for their reserve team is appalling. They and rangers have tried to enter the third division in Scotland but have been unsuccessful. There’s not much more they can do. But anyone who’s playing for Celtic B at the age of 18 or over is basically stagnating.

You combine it together and you’ve got a **** development structure and no pathways to the first team.

Lee O’Connor, they paid good money for. They gave him a good contract. He was really highly thought of at United, came second in the youth player of the year, had already been called up to the senior irish squad, but he didn’t see a pathway to the first team at United and Celtic swooped. He signed on deadline day and later that day, they bought Frimpong from City. Frimpong was bought for 300k and sold 18 months later for 11.5m - that was the guy who blocked his progress at Celtic.

Similarly they paid Bolton a fee to make sure they got Connell. He was playing championship football week in, week out. Bolton’s one bright stop on a bad season. Also called up to the senior squad. Same issue, no pathway, years of stagnation.

Afolabi was part of that block of 5 ultra talented attacking players: Obafemi, Parrott, Idah, Connolly and Afolabi. Afolabi was a sought after player - we had a mutual friend at the time and when Celtic signed him, he had been offered a contract by teams in the premier league, championship, league one and in Europe. Celtic offered him a pathway to the first team and a really attractive contract. His outcome from where he was in 2019 is a disgrace. Just look at what Neil Lennon said about him after 2 months at Celtic. Maybe he didn’t have the level to play for Ireland or at a really really top level but he was a much better player than Kayode and someone who should be playing League 1, rather than struggling at Bohs.

Okoflex was wasted there. It really hurt his development - because Brendan Rodgers mapped out a Raheem Sterling plan for him when he rejected Arsenal to go there. Despite those wasted years, he’s still doing pretty well, doing pretty well at Swansea at 20. But he was considered basically on the same level as Parrott when he signed for Celtic and now he’s not.

Barry Coffey was probably never going to be a guy who made any kind of breakthrough but the outcome was still less than the original talent justified.

I honestly feel if say Omobamidele had signed there, he’d be on loan at Queens Park or Alloa or someone in the 3rd or 4th tier of Scottish football - and eventually he’d be released and end up back in Ireland or in the lower leagues in England - and Celtic aren’t proved wrong cause they’ve hindered his development so much that he’s a shell of the player he could have been. It’s all hypothetical but that’s my take.

You’d worry about Lawal, Kenny and Vata in particular of the next generation - all guys who had a real chance. Very hard to evaluate Ben Quinn due to covid and not seeing him at u17. There’s also Osagie who’s the same age group, and Cannon and Gill who are younger.

Literally a club I would tell every young player to avoid unless they’re buying you for 5m

[Poor Student]

I think this incident led to Okoflex being frozen out at Celtic: https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/scottish-football/celtic-fc/celtic-player-slammed-saying-eight-21929191

Thinking of Celtic breakthroughs that got relatively decent loans - Kris Ajer was loaned to Kilmarnock, Tony Ralston was loaned to St Johnstone, Ryan Christie was on loan at ICT/Aberdeen for 2 years before he broke into the team, Callum McGregor was on loan at Notts County when in L1. Liam Shaw was on loan at Motherwell where he actually looked poor. If a player is good enough another Scot Prem club will look to loan them and Celtic will be only happy to do so as it'll strengthen opposition against Rangers and they won't be able to play against Celtic. Celtic have a proven track record for identifying, buying and selling on at massive profit young talent. They've also been able to bring through to varying degrees Scottish talent such as Tierney, McGregor, Forrest, Ralston, Welsh and Johnston.

I watched Luca Connell play preseason games for Celtic and whilst he'd a tidy enough player on the ball he, in my view, lacks the requisite strength and pace to play at the top level. Some people here want to paint a picture that Celtic are so singularly awful at youth development that they have caused irreparable damage to the likes of Connell, Afolabi and O'Connor hence they haven't met their true potential and are not plying their trade at a level which proves Celtic made a huge error. If they were good enough they'd be in the team making an impact like Liel Abada did when he was signed at 19 or be sought after by other Premier clubs for a loan like Scales and Aberdeen. Lawal and Kenny have looked similarly not up to the level when playing in friendlies. Vata has looked good for the Bs but hasn't really figured at first team level so far.

[ontheotherhand]

Interesting points above. I don't know much about Celtics structures at all.

On Kenny specifically I don't think he was or will be anywhere close to the level they require. It just seemed like a punt for the future but if their B team isn't really useful for development as elatescum says, why did they sign someone so young who needs so much work? Just playing the numbers game?

Kenny had a good season for a young lad in the LoI. No question there. But he did nothing against the best defenders in the league. Subbed off at halftime against Rovers iirc after being bullied around by Pico and co. If he couldn't do damage against them he was never going to step right up at Celtic. So was the plan always a loan move?

Good to see him coming back because he still has a lot to prove at our level. Should have stayed another year or three before Celtic took him.

[pineapple stu]

the quality of our players that went to Celtic were among our best.

Similarly they paid Bolton a fee to make sure they got Connell. He was playing championship football week in, week out.

Afolabi was part of that block of 5 ultra talented attacking players: Obafemi, Parrott, Idah, Connolly and Afolabi. Afolabi was a sought after player
I think though this forum has a long history of completely overestimating the ability of our players purely because of where they're from - because we want them to be good.

So Luca Connell wasn't really playing week in week out. He played less than a dozen games - losing all bar one - when Bolton ran out of players. I know SkStu has said he knows someone who knows someone who said he was really rated, but I'll take it with a pinch of salt. Any young player port in a storm (which sounds really dodgy actually!) I've done the same at UCD.

And the list of highly sought-after forwards you mention - none of them have really set the world alight in fairness. Obafemi has done best but seems to have injury/attitude problems. Parrott is struggling to find his feet in the English second tier. Idah has done nothing of note and we all know about Connolly's woes. And obviously as much as none of them have made it, none of them is finished either (even Afolabi, given the amount of LoI to L1 transfers lately)

I know from UCD's history the benefits of a young player joining a club that will give them a chance. Maybe Celtic was a bad move and I've said earlier in thread about his joining lower SPL sides and making a career of it, but also never troubling the national team (Hoolahan aside)

But let's not pretend - as CSAD is doing - that Celtic have suddenly made their guys much worse players or that they have a duty to develop them; that doesn't wash with me. Afolabi got plenty of loan deals for example and made nothing of them. I know Poor Student watches more of Celtic than any of the rest of us combined and I'd take his view on how Celtic work loan deals (which in fairness sounds very similar to how other big clubs work them - but we don't criticise Man United for how Kieran O'Hara turned out)

[Jd2793]

It seems to me that moving to Celtic is simply the wrong choice of Scottish premier league club when it comes to a LOI player who now deserves a chance to prove himself at the Scottish PL level. Comparing the fates of Kenny and Tierney at Motherwell is a good exercise. My takeaway is that Celtic take a punt and outsource development to B league and Div2 clubs whereas the smaller clubs have a more defined and achievable pathway to the first team. Aaron McEneff another who got a chance straight away and did well. Even Liam Scales has done better away from Celtic.

Players hoping to get a chance and not stagnate would do better to look at other Scottish clubs as a more viable option.


But scales did well away from celtic because he wasnt good enough for the first team. he played a handful of games including some woeful european displays and he never played again. most fans said after bodo he wasnt good enough. celtic/rangers are a different beast to aberdeen , playing in europe is another story altogether. mceneff struggled , no? only 7 spl starts i think it was.

[pineapple stu]

Sadly (because I'd obviously love to see Scales do well) that's exactly true

23 points off Celtic after 17 games is literally different level stuff